Talk:List of grade milestones in rock climbing/Archive 1

Is it possible to change the name of this article to "List of first ascents (free climbing)"?
This page contains numerous examples of first ascents of non-sport routes, such as Freerider and The Nose, as well as numerous boulder problems. This is confusing and ought to be revised. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.80.172.44 (talk) 22:52, 24 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The article about Sport climbing is not complete in my opinion, as it only gives a strict definition of the expression "sport climbing". In the talk page of that article, I gave a broader definition.


 * I assume that bouldering and climbing on artificial surfaces are (of course) forms of climbing. Hence, if they are also considered to be sport activities, they obviously become "sport climbing" activities. For instance, bouldering is one of the main disciplines in international sport climbing events organized by the International Federation of Sport climbing. Deep water solo routes and some multi-pitch routes may be considered to be sport climbing routes as well. However, in this article we also list notable free solo ascents, which in my opinion cannot be considered to be sport climbing. Thus, I agree about changing the article title to "List of first ascents (free climbing)".


 * This is not the talk page where the various (very strict, strict and broad) definitions of "sport climbing" should be discussed. However, you might need here a section of what I wrote on the talk page of the Sport climbning article:
 * The expression "sport climging" is often broadly used to indicate any kind of free climbing that, by using preplaced protection gear (including bolts for lead climbing and mats for bouldering), both on rock and artificial surfaces, allows you to test your strength, power, power endurance and flexibility limits, and therefore to fail and try again without being hindered by fear of badly hurting yourself or by the need of bringing with you and placing on the rock all kind of haavy and bulky protection gear required to protect you against falls. This excludes both traditional climbing and free solo climbing. Safely falling and trying again (sometimes reapeatedly) is the only way to test your limits and to train for climbing extremely difficult routes and boulder problems. A few decades agp, by adopting this strategy it became possible to evolve from mountaineering in hazardous environments with cumbersome equipment to climbing extremely difficult routes and boulder problems in controlled environments with light-weight equipment (shoes, ropes, harnesses, quickdraws). Sport climbing was first used as a method to train, with the ultimate goal of improving mountain climbing skills. It quicly became, however, an independent activity. Similarly, climbing on artificial surfaces became a separate activity, used in international climbing competitions by International Federation of Sport Climbing (IFSC) and by the International Olympic Committee (IOC), but artificial surfaces mimicking the shape of specific rock surfaces are also used, by both amateur and professional rock climbers, to train for sport climbing on rock.
 * Notice that this broad definition, which is adopted both by the International Federation of Sport climbing (IFSC) and by the International Olympic Committee (IOC), includes both bouldering and climbing on artificial surfaces (competition climbing). Also, it is the only definition wich makes sense from a purely terminological point of view.


 * Paolo.dL (talk) 10:30, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

This is meant to be a list of milestones in the history of free climbing
First free ascents (FFAs) listed in this article should be iconic, legendary. Not only because of their importance for a single climber or country or crag, but because they are regarded worldwide as milestones in the history of free climbing. Paolo.dL (talk) 21:01, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Examples

 * 1) A milestone
 * For instance, Lynn Hill's FFA of The Nose on El Capitan is listed here not just because it was the first time that El Capitan was free climbed, and possibly at that time the hardest ascent ever completed in Yosemite National Park (USA), but because The Nose was one of the hardest multipitch routes in the world, and Hill's ascent was described worldwide as an iconic achievement (e.g, see here). So iconic that even Google published it on Street view (see here). Paolo.dL (talk) 21:01, 28 March 2019 (UTC)


 * 2) An outstanding achievement which is not a milestone
 * This is the reason why, for instance, we should not list here Adam Ondra's third 9b+ (Vasil Vasil, 2013). Even in Ondra's life, there are many more significant ascents, including world's second 9a onsight (Cabane au Canada, 2013) and world's first redpointed 9c (Silence, 2017).


 * Chris Sharma and Alex Megos, the second and third climbers in the world who redpointed routes at that grade, barely deserve being mentioned here. Stefano Ghisolfi, the fourth climber to redpoint 9b+, is only mentioned here because he confirmed the grade of Perfecto Mundo, World's third 9b+ route, first ascended by Alex Megos. Paolo.dL (talk) 21:01, 28 March 2019 (UTC)


 * 3) Other examples of achievements that are not milestones
 * For the same reason, these are not considered milestones in the history of sport climbing:
 * A "second time" for a given climber (e.g., second 9a for that climber), unless it is also a "second time" in the world (e.g., see La dura dura, second 9b+ for Ondra and at the same time second 9b+ in climbing history).
 * A third ascent at a given grade (e.g. third 9a in history). Notice that Megos is not mentioned here for redpointing world's third 9b+, but because by climbing it he became the third "strongest" male "redpointer". In other words, only Ondra and Sharma, at that time, had climbed this hard (9b+) or harder (9c).
 * Being the youngest to climb at a given grade (e.g., first 13 years old climber to redpoint a 9a route). This is only interesting in the young climber's history and should not be mentioned here.
 * Flashing hard routes. An hybrid style, not commonly regarded as one of the main styles (redpointing, onsighting, free soloing). Beta (detailed information about the route) is obtained from other climbers, rather than discovered autonomously by studying the route.
 * Paolo.dL (talk) 21:01, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Discussion
Just thought Wikipedia needs an article on first ascends of boulder problems. Naturally it has been created a couple of months ago. Good job! A few questions:

How do you define milestone? Isn't this always going to be very subjective? Wouldn't it be sensible to just all first ascents into a new grade, and then maybe add a few other ascents that are considered special, and mark them as such?

What about the really historic ascents? Should the graded problems in History of rock climbing be included all?

OdinFK (talk) 07:22, 25 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Milestones are all first ascents and all first female ascents into a new grade. However, in some cases even the second and third ascent into a new grade (unless they are from the same climber) deserve special mention in the history of climbing. For instance, wouldn't you eagerly list here the second climber who will redpoint 9c? And how can we not mention Chris Sharma's repetition of La Dura Dura? (second climber to climb 9b+ in history), and Megos's first ascent of Perfecto Mundo? (third climber to climb 9b+, on a route that Sharma describes as harder than La Dura Dura).
 * In this context, I guess the hardest climbs by the two or three "strongest" climbers might be operationally defined milestones for any given time in history. For instance, currently, Ondra, Sharma, and Megos may be operationally defined as the "strongest" male "redpointers", by only considering how "hard" are the routes they redpointed.
 * This is not the only criterion, however. For instance, if the second 9c in history will be redpointed by Ondra, I guess we will have to include it. However, if Sharma or Megos will climb their second 9b+, I would not consider it a milestone, as Ondra already climbed 9c. More exactly, I would consider it an amazing milestone in their career, but not hard enough to be also a milestone in the history of sport climbing.
 * Anyway, although there might be some residual uncertainty in defining the scope of this article, the problem is that several editors tried to clog it with fourth of fifth ascents into a given grade, second or third "times" for specific climbers (e.g. Margo Hayes's third 9a+ when Angela Eiter had already climbed 9b, or Adam Ondra's third 9b+, when world's third 9b+ had already been climbed by Chris Sharma), or "youngest ascents" at a given grade, all of which are unquestionably far from being milestones...
 * About the article History of rock climbing, I did not know about it. I'll study it as soon as I can.
 * Paolo.dL (talk) 14:54, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

The name of the article be changed if the overriding filter is on historical milestones of the sport and not first ascents on routes of significance. It's incredibly misleading to find this article hoping to find a list of routes of notable grades that have been completed and who completed them only to go to the talk page and see that a lot if not most have been omitted because its actually a page about milestones. Vasil Vasil, for example, is intentionally omitted despite it's difficulty being well within the scope of this article, there has been a first ascent, and it's a sport climb. Philapathy (talk) 20:33, 9 October 2019 (UTC)


 * The scope is clearly described in the first sentence of the introduction. Also, I called this article Notable first ascents (sport climbing) when I created it. Then some administrator changed its title. As far as I understand, Wikipedia only lists notable stuff or people, so the word notable is intentionally omitted in list titles, while the world list is mandatory. Paolo.dL (talk) 06:00, 10 October 2019 (UTC)


 * It's not clearly described at all. The comma in the sentence makes the end read as a non-restrictive clause which, in my head, reads as though you're saying first ascents in general are regarded as milestones. If you wanted it to be clearer I would propose it changes to "In this article, notable first ascents of hard routes and boulders that are regarded as milestones in the history of free climbing are listed." Aside from that, though, I think there's merit in having a discussion of whether or not the current scope of the article fits the spirit of the title. As has been mentioned above, milestones and notable feats of strength in climbing history are recorded in History of rock climbing whereas a comprehensive list of first ascents for sport climbing does not currently exist on Wikipedia in the same way that List of first ascents exists for mountaineering. If one were to google "List of 5.15 first ascents" this article is the first thing to pop up and a casual reader would think there's been about a dozen whereas the number is well over a hundred. You may consider this "clogging up the article" but I think many people would consider this pertinent information.Philapathy (talk) 08:23, 10 October 2019 (UTC)


 * This article does not list notable routes and boulder problems. It lists notable first ascents. Its focus is on notable achievements, not on notable rocks. Even the structure of this article is determined by its focus. Namely, its main subsections are determined by:
 * Style of ascent (redpoint, onsight, free solo)
 * Discipline (route or boulder; single-pitch or multi-pitch)
 * Gender
 * They are not determined by climbing grade, which is only used as a secondary parameter, whithin each main section. For instance, Estado Critico (9a) is a relatively easy route, climbed by many people before Alex Megos onsighted it in 2013. However, it is ranked first in its own cathegory because of the above mentioned article focus and structure. The first redpoint and first female ascent of Estado Critico are not listed here, because they are not notable ascents. Indeed, we focus on the first onsight ascent of that route, rather than on the route itself.
 * In sum, this article is about notable first ascents. It is not about first ascents of notable routes and boulders.
 * Please feel free to create an article with a different focus. Notice that before 1991 nobody was able to climb a 9a route or 8C boulder. Currently, 440 9a routes and almost 200 8C boulders are listed on 8a.nu. For many reasons it is safe to predict that in the future there will be hundreds of 9b routes and 8C+ boulder problems as well. A list of notable routes and boulder problems would need an operational definition of the word "notable", unless you want to list thousands of routes.
 * Paolo.dL (talk) 18:00, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

I think a problem with this list is the conflation of free climbing and sport climbing. If you want to list notable first ascents in free climbing then - by your definition of milestones - you need to go further back in history. But this is largely done by History of rock climbing. I guess if you make it clear that you refer to sport climbing as the movement in climbing that took off sometime in the 1970s, this list would make more sense. Also, why stop at 7c+? Bohnenkraut11 (talk) 22:55, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Non-notable boulder entries
Removed a lot of non-notable bouldering entries at 8c+ level. Any entry in this article should be a legitimate contender (according to independent RS) for the 1st or 2nd (and even 3rd) worldwide climb at that grade. Disputed grades can be kept, as long as there is strong evidence to support both camps. Unconfirmed grades at the highest grade are also okay. However, unconfirmed grades at the 2nd highest grade, and which are never going to be 1st or 2nd at that 2nd highest grade, are not included. The highest grade for a country or region are also not notable enough; this article is focused on worldwide consensus (by the best climbing RS, not blogs) 1st or 2nd climbs at that grade. 78.18.15.204 (talk) 19:29, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Suggestions
This is a much improved article and so hard to get such definitive lists. I would split the big wall / multipitch part into male / female as there are some great female trad climbers now equalling men - Sasha, Berette and Beth. Would also like to see the trad milestones like Jacobo, Sonny and DMacL also recorded as the greenpointing revolution is happening. 31.187.2.167 (talk) 13:51, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Also, multipitch should come after singlepitch, and before boulders. 31.187.2.167 (talk) 13:56, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

This article should be "List of grade milestones in rock climbing"
This article should be moved to "List of grade milestones in rock climbing", which is exactly what it conatins. Rock climbing is a better term as the article includes bouldering, deep water soloing and multi-pitch/big wall climbing (which are all sub-classes of rock climbing). The entries are all "grade breakthroughs" in rock climbing and not just any first ascent (although all grade breakthroughs are by definition first free ascents, but not all first ascents are "grade breakthroughs"). 78.18.249.143 (talk) 10:35, 18 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Climbing. Nick Moyes (talk) 11:51, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

I do think this article name is wrong - these are not first ascents but milestones in new grades, and the article covers more than just sport climbing. 31.187.2.167 (talk) 12:59, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Definitely use rock climbing over sport climbs (not just sport), and milestones over ascents. Agree with name change. 188.227.243.60 (talk) 14:03, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

I don't think there is any discussion at the Wikiproject venue (seems dormant). I do think this article now makes it very clear that it is "rock climbing" (e.g. sport climbs, bouldering, big wall climbs etc.), and they are grade milestones. The current title is misleading (and wrong) and it should be moved to "List of grade milestones in rock climbing". Perhaps User:Nick Moyes will revisit it now and move it? 78.18.228.191 (talk) 23:51, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, please do change the name of this article which is wrong. It is grade milestones in rock climbing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.128.88.55 (talk) 18:10, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅. Aszx5000 (talk) 08:59, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Shawn Raboutou
I think some of his V17 ascents have been downgraded. 188.227.243.60 (talk) 13:58, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Jury is still out, too early to tell for sure. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:17, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

new 9b+
Adam ondra and Stefano ghisolfi climbed two new 9b+ i added them but somebody removed them 5.90.36.21 (talk) 21:41, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * This article is not an indiscriminate list of all 9b+ routes, but only the first four in history (that were the nearest to a new grade milestone). Ondra and Ghisolfi’s recent new 9b+s are not notable as new grade milestones, and therefore not suitable for this article (they should be added to the articles of Ondra and Ghisolfi where every 9b+ they have created is chronicled). 5.90.62.13 (talk) 18:31, 19 February 2023 (UTC)