Talk:List of helicopter prison escapes/Archive 1

Right category?
Does this really qualify to be in the category Escapees, shouldn't that technically only be people who have escaped? Lokal Profil 19:11, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Edits
Changed some of the prison names 13 June, 2006

Gartree Prison Escape
One notorious helicopter prison escape this article doesn't mention is that which took place at Gartree Prison - a maximum security prison located at Market Harborough, near Leicester in the United Kingdom. On 10 December 1987, two prisoners were sprung from Gartree's exercise yard with the aid of a hijacked Bell 206L helicopter. They were recaptured shortly afterwards, but the escape caused great controversy at the time. Interestingly, to date, Gartree remains the only British prison from which such an escape has been made, so it is possibly worthy of an inclusion.

Added Details
Having received no response on this matter, I have decided to add the above information - with a few changes. I am not sure how to add references, though, so someone else will have to do this. Thanks 81.152.223.92 18:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

In Fiction
The Australian television series Prisoner Cell Block H staged one of the most daring prison helicopter escapes to be seen in fiction when one of the inmates, Marie Winter, escaped from the jail by hanging from the landing gear of a low flying helicopter. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.157.67.61 (talk) 12:08, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

And there's that Superman film too, not just the book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.23.70 (talk) 00:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Table
The country table that shows number of escapes per country is at the bottom of the article for some reason. Anyone else see it there and not where it supposed to be? -- Esemono (talk) 05:49, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * fixed it, it was an extra dash never mind -- Esemono (talk) 05:53, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Great article
Ha ha, I looked this subject up on Google because I was sure Wikipedia wouldn't have an article on it, but loh I have been proven wrong. Also just so you know a helicopter escape plot was foiled in Britain today. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/7974198.stm Ryan 4314   (talk) 18:47, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know if it was actually a helicopter escape. All the BBC is reporting is that there was going to be a seizure of the iman but apparently there is a mesh that makes helicopter escapes impossible.  Wait for the report to be released. -- Esemono (talk) 03:13, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Ron McIntosh
He was a Decorated Viet Nam Army pilot with bravery citations. Interestingly enough after being returned to Federal prison his records mysteriously disappeared from the Federal Bureau of Prison Files and he has not been seen or heard from again. Lopez is still locked up 20 years later (2006) -- 68.127.87.188 5 September 2006
 * Really do you have any source for this info? -- Esemono (talk) 06:43, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Contradiction
The article says France has had 11 escapes. The table says 9 ( + 2 failed attempts... but failed attempts can not be counted as escapes, can they?) 79.138.189.240 (talk) 22:40, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Changed to say France has had 11 escape attempts -- Esemono (talk) 23:22, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Table
Helicopter escape attempts by country: I have removed the "country breakdown" table. It was misleading, because the numbers it gives are merely the counts from the "Escapes" table that follows. There is no evidence that the list is comprehensive. jnestorius(talk) 23:36, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The country table is supported by references that are provided as you say in the table below. Unless you can find a source that says the list isn't comprehensive the table stays.  Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth, it may be true that the list isn't complete but the list and as such the table is Verified. -- Esemono (talk) 14:49, 1 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Huh? The table is completely unverified. The null hypothesis is that the table is not comprehensive. It is your obligation to prove otherwise. You have provided zero sources that say, e.g. "there have been 9 successful helicopter prison escapes in France". The summary table constitutes WP:SYNTH. jnestorius(talk) 14:56, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * as shown by your own link at WP:SYNTH:


 * The Wikipedia policy on Synthesis of published material does not forbid routine calculations, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age, provided editors agree that the arithmetic and its application correctly reflect the information published by the sources from which it is derived.
 * Therefore the simple addition of the amount of verified helicopter escapes IS NOT original research. Again the table is verified number of helicopter escape attempts per country. -- Esemono (talk) 23:32, 1 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The table is NOT "verified number" of helicopter escape attempts per country. It is a verified lower bound on the number of helicopter escape attempts. What you have verified is as follows:
 * {| class="wikitable sortable"

!Country !class=unsortable|Flag !Successful escapes !Failed attempts
 * France
 * 🇫🇷
 * align=center|9 or more
 * align=center|2 or more
 * United States
 * 🇺🇸
 * align=center|5 or more (2  or more in Puerto Rico)
 * align=center|1 or more
 * Greece
 * 🇬🇷
 * align=center|2 or more
 * align=center|0 or more
 * Australia
 * 🇦🇺
 * align=center|1 or more
 * align=center|1 or more
 * Belgium
 * 🇧🇪
 * align=center|3 or more
 * align=center|0 or more
 * Netherlands
 * 🇳🇱
 * align=center|0 or more
 * align=center|1 or more
 * Ireland
 * 🇮🇪
 * align=center|1 or more
 * align=center|0 or more
 * United Kingdom
 * align=center|1 or more
 * align=center|0 or more
 * Brazil
 * 🇧🇷
 * align=center|1 or more
 * align=center|0 or more
 * Mexico
 * 🇲🇽
 * align=center|1 or more
 * align=center|0 or more
 * Italy
 * 🇮🇹
 * align=center|0 or more
 * align=center|0 or more
 * Ethiopia
 * 🇪🇹
 * align=center|0 or more
 * align=center|0 or more
 * Fiji
 * 🇫🇯
 * align=center|0 or more
 * align=center|0 or more
 * Pakistan
 * 🇵🇰
 * align=center|0 or more
 * align=center|0 or more
 * Egypt
 * 🇪🇬
 * align=center|0 or more
 * align=center|0 or more
 * Moldova
 * 🇲🇩
 * align=center|0 or more
 * align=center|0 or more
 * Greenland
 * 🇬🇱
 * align=center|0 or more
 * align=center|0 or more
 * }
 * align=center|0 or more
 * align=center|0 or more
 * Egypt
 * 🇪🇬
 * align=center|0 or more
 * align=center|0 or more
 * Moldova
 * 🇲🇩
 * align=center|0 or more
 * align=center|0 or more
 * Greenland
 * 🇬🇱
 * align=center|0 or more
 * align=center|0 or more
 * }
 * align=center|0 or more
 * align=center|0 or more
 * }


 * Expressing it thus would make obvious that this table is pointless, intelligence-insulting, and of no encyclopedic value. Expressing it the way you have expressed it creates the misleading impression that the numbers are exact rather than lower bounds. Of course you and I know the numbers are not exact; five minutes searching a newspaper archive threw up four examples you hadn't included. If someone wants to find out how many Belgian attempts are in the main table, they can click the "Country" column-header to sort by country, then run their finger down along and count up to three. We do not need to hold their hand for them. jnestorius(talk) 13:25, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
 * By adding the escape attempts you found, you have verified they have existed thus they are able to go in the table. Thank you for furthering this article and the "By country" table.  You're right the second table is ridiculous which is why the first table shall stay.  Wikipedia is all about providing verifiable information in an easy to read format which is exactly what the table provides. -- Esemono (talk) 23:31, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The first table is also ridiculous. Please address my central criticism: Expressing it the way you have expressed it creates the misleading impression that the numbers are exact rather than lower bounds. jnestorius(talk) 10:04, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The numbers are verified, not lower bounds. Into the table only goes verified accounts of helicopter escapes.  It may be true that their are other attempts but unless they're verified they don't go into the table. -- Esemono (talk) 11:33, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Third Opinion
Jnestorius makes some very good arguments about verification, and how the table will likely be read, but I am sympathetic to Esemono's position that the information is entirely valid. With that being said, I must agree with Jnestorius that the table should be removed. The point about the likely interpretation of the country list as absolute is valid, but I think the more important issue was touched upon briefly, and is much simpler - there is nothing new in the "By Country" table. Anyone interested can simply sort the main table by country and count. There's no need to provide a list that is a duplicate of a more detailed on already on the page. The main list should, however, be pared down a bit, as it is pretty unwieldy at the moment - I think you both agree on that. ~ Amory ( u •  t  •  c ) 22:20, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

--Jennerbrian (talk) 12:17, 8 June 2014 (UTC)== missing highjack ==

--173.177.138.51 (talk) 12:10, 8 June 2014 (UTC) == Attempted Helicopter Escape from Quebec City Prison ==

The article has missed an attempted escape from Quebec City's Orsainville jail, May 7, 1981. With a sawed off shotgun pushing up against the back of my head, I nonetheless refused my passengers demand that I land the Orsainville prison courtyard, where her boy friend was waiting. To get my point across clearly, I feigned a panic attack, put the helicopter through some rough maneuvers and was then able to convince the girl, in the back seat of my Jet Ranger, to turn over her shotgun and her knife. I then gave her the choice of any landing spot, except the prison. She chose to go back to the airport.

I then explained to the girl, in detail, exactly where we were and where we would be landing on arrival at the Quebec City airport. I added that the police would surely be aware by then, that she had highjacked the helicopter but would not yet be aware that she had given up her arms to me. All the time I was squeezing the transmit button on his cyclic stick and the tower was picking up all the details. The moment we touched down at the airport, the girl bailled from the helicopter but the police, who had been advised of the situation by the control tower personnel, were hiding out all over the place and captured the girl within seconds of leaving the helicopter.

Brian Jenner, (the pilot in question)

173.177.138.51 (talk) 12:13, 8 June 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jennerbrian (talk • contribs) 20:02, 27 August 2011‎ (UTC)

Contradiction
This article also omits an escape from New Mexico State Prison in Santa Fe on July 11, 1988. Google can provide details. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Podunkfarm (talk • contribs) 19:34, 15 January 2013 (UTC)