Talk:List of heritage places in Fremantle

Ivanhoe, 8 Ord Street
This house, built on the corner of Ord and High streets in 1889, is not on the heritage register (I guess because it was demolished in 1966), but I think belongs on this list. Can I add it? It was James Lilly's house; he was a shipping fellow and started (I think?) the Fremantle Gas and Coke Company (I'll find a source...), and committed suicide in 1905. I'll find some more sources for Ivanhoe.... :) Sam Wilson 09:54, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

neighborhoods/areas
I've been adding coordinates to the list-article, and think this is a clearly good thing for readers directly (because they can see where places are on the linked OSM or Google or Bing map). But also it can help in supporting some partition of this list into several shorter lists, or supporting adding a precinct/neighborhood/sector column (and support sorting the list by that).

To be clear, the article states up front that it is to cover places in City of Fremantle, so besides Fremantle (suburb) that means any registered historic sites in the following are to be included: But I gather that historic sites in East Fremantle are not welcome. Let me know if I misunderstand.
 * Beaconsfield - there's at least one included already
 * Hilton
 * North Fremantle -there are 5-10 included already
 * O'Connor
 * Samson
 * South Fremantle
 * White Gum Valley

Browsing around, I don't find any "MECE" (mutually exclusive, collectively exhaustive) partition into neighborhoods/precincts of Fremantle (suburb) obviously available. I see mention of 6 electoral wards, but I haven't come across a map showing them. -- do ncr  am  05:22, 19 March 2017 (UTC)


 * I have started to split them by "North of High Street" vs. "South of High Street". Have done so for about one half.  The remainder don't yet have coordinates, and are in five temporary groups.  These multiple groups allow me to edit a convenient chunk at a time, while editing the whole page is very slow.  I am sure anyone familiar with all these streets or places could divide them between "North" vs. "South" easily, but I am figuring further division is gonna be needed.  So looking up and adding coordinates is what needs to be done now I think.  Any help on that would be appreciated.  Done for now, tonight. -- do  ncr  am  08:15, 21 March 2017 (UTC)


 * what a mess you have created, nice idea total waste of effort Gnangarra 01:19, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Temporary mess was cleaned up. I think not a waste of effort.  See  below. -- do  ncr  am  21:55, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

sectioning and format changes revert
Before under taking such a dramatic changes please explain why and what, firstly High Street north / south side isnt recognised segment in the area and has no meaning in real word. Secondly the list is created from a fixed data set which is unlikely to grow or change in any dramatic fashion in the future. such segments cut through a number of heritage areas and breaks street continuity, it divides a University campus. I have no issue with being bold, but please discuss this and create what ever format in a sub page whie leaving the readable article in place. Gnangarra 01:14, 22 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Yikes. I think this needs to be reverted and started from scratch: the division by someone who apparently doesn't know Fremantle is a nonsense. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 01:47, 22 March 2017 (UTC)


 * I'd have to concur the sectioning makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Dan arndt (talk) 03:24, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Well, lovely to see your interest here. :) Hey, I suppose it may have been upsetting that, while working on it, I left temporary sorting-related sections in the article.  But I finished adding coordinates for all but a few rows, and it is now in this version, cleaned up.  The "readable article" is back in place.

Also, I am sure it must be aggravating that I went ahead and implemented a partition in the article, given your sense of ownership over it. Perhaps you assume too much about me, e.g. perhaps you assume that I am hell-bent on enforcing this one way of splitting the list. I am not. Before y'all express a lot more, could you please do me the favor of actually looking at the linked OSM map (select from maps box near upper right in article). Please notice that you can see where each of the heritages places are now, which should considerably inform further discussion.

It is my understanding from the discussion at wt:Freopedia that the list-article needs to be split, due to its size and prospect of further additions to it, making it perhaps unwieldy for mobile users and other readers too. I may be wrong about it needing to be split, but if it is going to be split then dividing it geographically, rather than by age of building (also mentioned) is probably the way to go.

It's my view that splitting a big list like this is usually an iterative process, I say from my experience with editors splitting lists of many hundreds of U.S. historic places for numerous big U.S. cities. Yes, I finished rough-sorting it into "North of High Street" and "South of High Street". Call that an exercise, which could be undone easily by combining the two sections (I rather think it should not be done by reverting to a previous version, thereby losing all the coordinates that have been added, and losing other small text corrections and other improvements also done in the process).

I do assume that some different scheme for organizing the list can/will be chosen. But the comments from one or two editors at wt:Freopedia suggest that there is no easy way forward, that there will likely be disagreement about any proposal. Now, anyhow, implementing any other scheme will be a lot easier. Cheers, -- do ncr  am  05:56, 22 March 2017 (UTC)


 * I've reverted until there is consensus for such major changes. I suspect people probably don't object to your various minor changes, but reorganising an article about a place you've never been on lines that locals are telling you is illogical is not helpful, as is rambling about your motives when people point this out. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 12:24, 22 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Firstly WT:FREOPEDIA isnt this list one is outreach project and one is a list article covering a very sepecific and clearly defined limited data set, the changes proposed are unnecessary and along illogical unnatural boundaries. There is no "ownership" of the article nor is reverting an attack on you personally so please if you want to discuss your concepts put them up for discussion. I did note that you had added co-ordinates but to address the structural issues of the changes was impractical without also incorporating a reversal of the co-ordinates. Gnangarra 12:35, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

neighborhoods/areas 2
I just found my way to this map of Fremantle's precincts (linked from City of Fremantle, under "Residents"). This provides basis to categorize the heritage places by that partition possibly. This would yield the following groupings (with approximately numbers of heritage places): and no entries in the precincts of Gibson Park, White Gum Valley, Samson, Hilton, or O'Connor. The map actually shows the "City" area labelled "City 1&2" but there is no information provided about the 1 vs. 2 distinction.
 * "City", defined by Parry and Norfolk streets (about 130)
 * "Arts Centre" (about 22)
 * "South City" (about 19)
 * "North Fremantle" (about 8, being 6 currently displayed in OSM map plus a couple so far without coordinates)
 * "South Fremantle" (1)
 * "Beaconsfield" (1)

This seems useful to include in the list-article in some way (e.g. to add as a sortable "Area" column, or to use in breaking the big table into smaller ones, or to use more subtly in just the presentation order of rows). Perhaps further the "City" section could be partitioned, for purpose of describing places in this list, into "City Central" (about 70) vs. "West End area" (about 60) if Pakenham Street were adopted as the border. User:JarrahTree suggested at wt:Freopedia that it would be impossible to get people ever to agree to any working definition of a border, but perhaps a rough consensus (on Pakenham or a line between Pakenham and Market St or some other line) could be achieved nonetheless. :) I am gonna try to AGF about reception here so far.  Does anyone else have any map links or other positive information to share, about how this list can be organized? :) -- do  ncr  am  20:38, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

P.S. It has been pointed out that using High St. as a dividing line would split an educational institution. Using any geographical partition is likely to split something or another, but that is not really a problem: you just take care to define the border explicitly to include all of something that would otherwise overlap, or you include any overlapping one in each of the areas it goes into. If the table has counts by section, then the grand total count has to subtract the duplicates. -- do ncr  am  20:45, 23 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Please stop. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 21:52, 23 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Missing the point totally - the List of heritage places is not the one to be separated - it is the Freopedia level of articles - the list of heritage places is from inherit, it stays in one whole as it comes from one dataset - it is the freopedia range of articles that needs to be considered in separate lists.


 * Big problem is that this not the potential central place of discussion - but also that freopedia and fremantle articles are subsidiary to the wikiproject perth - and in turn it goes to the western australia project - and the talk page there is totally different scope - there are always more watchers than involved - as most of the usual eds have real life time commitments constraints.


 * There seem to be so many misunderstandings about what the fremantle articles and their relationship with the freopedia project is about in the above material, I cannot answer them all here or now. Some time later, maybe next week JarrahTree 01:30, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't see misunderstandings any longer. This article is a list of heritage places (i believe just ones on the State Register);  it can usefully be organized by neighborhood, i.e. by adding a neighborhood column.  The ordering of the list can be presented perhaps by neighborhood then by street then by north-west to south-east, and the list can be re-sorted by the reader to alphabetical order by title of property.
 * I see now that the Fremantle West End Heritage area is very well defined, by this map from its article and uses Market Street as the dividing line for West End. That can work for partitioning the "City" area. -- do  ncr  am  13:35, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

A year and a half later: this discussion was very unpleasant. In some side discussion, it was conveyed to me that bullying is what goes on, that's just what some Australia editor(s) do. And some other(s) apologize for them and possibly enable the behavior. Same is going on recently, I see at wp:ANI. By the way there was some further at my Talk, archived here, including some apparent agreement by this list-article's original developer that Fremantle could in fact be divided by some areas. --Doncram (talk) 22:01, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
 * My precise comment spelling errors and all  I can see arguements for it but that doesnt necessarily mean I would agree with those sub divisions at this stage. there was no agreement from me for changes. Given what has taken place at the link at wp:ANI this comment is appears to be solely to disrupt, expand, and escalate another issue rather than improve Wikipedia. Gnangarra 23:42, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Scope of list
The scope of this list, which has about 180 items, is currently described as including State Register of Heritage Places places plus lower-ranked heritage places listed by the City of Fremantle. However it seems close to being a list of the State Register ones alone. Specifically, there are 266 State Register places with "Fremantle" in their location that one can download in a .CSV file (if search http://inherit.stateheritage.wa.gov.au/public with "Limit my search to the State Register" checked). Of these 16 are in East Fremantle, to be subtracted. The 266 includes one in South Fremantle and nine in North Fremantle. Add 2 found with search on "Beaconsfield". No proper hits on "O'Connor", "White Gum", "Gibson Park", "Samson", or "Hilton". Grand total should be 252. Without limiting to State Register, there are 3859 Fremantle hits, 152 White Gum Valley hits, 297 Beaconsfield hits, etc.

1. So it seems the scope of this list should be defined to be State Register and above ratings only. Can that be agreed? 2. Of these, some are higher listed, on Australian National Heritage List and Commonwealth Heritage List, and should be denoted, perhaps by color bars. Can that be agreed? -- do ncr  am  01:34, 24 March 2017 (UTC)


 * We have had that particular discussion before, and the consensus was to not. I argued that we should at the time, but was persuaded otherwise. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 03:31, 24 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Could you please clarify? Please link to the discussion you refer to.  To not what? -- do  ncr  am  04:06, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I have no prior involvement (AFAIK) with this list and I don't think I have made any significant contribution to the articles on this list. But I do write a lot of heritage site articles for Queensland, where we have a few similar list articles for towns like Toowoomba, Warwick and Townsville. To my certain knowledge, there is a long history to the Freopedia project and the lede para of this article is quite explicit that it is "heritage sites" in Fremantle using a number of heritage registers (and it has been saying that for the past couple of years at least). I think it is useful to include coordinates in such lists with a as maps are helpful things. I think it is useful to have some principle for sorting the elements of the list/table by default. In the Queensland, we mostly sort lists of this nature within a town/suburb alphabetically by street name and then by street number if there are multiple sites in the same street. I think this is helpful to the reader who might be walking down a street with their mobile phone looking at the Wikipedia article and wanting to know which properties should merit their particular attention wrt heritage. Given that these Fremantle sites have QR codes on them, I think sorting by streets and then number within streets might work here too as people will clearly be physically out and about reading these articles. I am not sure I see the need to break up the list/table into smaller list/tables if the list/table is sorted by default in some useful way and has the ability with the table to sort by other fields if desired. Kerry (talk) 05:51, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

No one seems to be getting it - this is a single list from a data set. The more relevant and important discussion is required for the freopedia project. The freopedia project is spreading beyond the original intent of 'just heritage' - and going well beyond items on any list produced by whoever. They are two different things - I shall probably have to repeat that every time I post here. JarrahTree 07:34, 24 March 2017 (UTC)


 * No need to repeat, thanks. -- do ncr  am  01:57, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Continuing on what the scope of this list-article should be... In #Article History]] section below, Gnangarra explained how the list-table got to have its contents, which is about 180 items, and I added a little bit to that history. At this point, I would like to proceed and verify that all in the current list-table are listed on the State Register of Heritage Places (which I think they are), and further to add the missing 70 or so that Gnangarra excluded, to reach 252, the grand total available from the Inherit database. The previous exclusion of 70 was essentially because not much information was available about those places (and maybe also there were less than 70 exclusions, if there have been new additions to the State Register list). I would hope to find and add adequate information about these. Having a complete list is more defensible here and explainable in the article, I think. I will plan to keep the new additions identified in the list in some way, so that their addition can be reviewed by others here, perhaps by adding them all at the end. -- do ncr  am

Article History
Back in 2012 I did a csv dump of data from the state heritage register, the state register lists building on all national, state and local government heritage lists and its the same technique I have used for a number of other WA place lists. For this list(from memory) I went with the qualifier as Fremantle, from the list I choose to remove poor descriptions like house on foo street with no details, most of those were solely on the LGA list that had no additional information as why they were there additionally I removed any East Fremantle places as they arent within the City of Fremantle. Sorting the list was based on the information provided, co-ordinates werent part of the information available......

Scope was that original source minus limited info and refined to only City of Fremantle places. No Issue with making the scope to include all of the Suburbs of the City of Fremantle, which would also then make sense to have each burb as a separate table. I could also see argument for having sub sections of the already defined precincts like West End, Victoria Quay, Wray Rd.  Gnangarra 07:15, 26 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks, User:Gnangarra, for explaining. I am guessing that in your searching you restricted it to places listed on the State Register of Heritage Places, which is easy to do in the downloading.  I haven't yet confirmed that all the entries are in the State Register, but you would have had thousands of results if that restriction was not done.  To add to the history:  Since then, one or two other editors added one or a few more sites, including one in Beaconsfield if I recall correctly.  And I added a second Beaconsfield one.  And I added coordinates for most entries, based on my looking up addresses and, in some cases where photos were available, comparing Google Streetviews to match up the right building.  See "Scope" discussion section about going forward. -- do  ncr  am  01:51, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://archive.is/20121204131956/http://inherit.stateheritage.wa.gov.au/Public/Inventory/Details/271adca7-048f-4474-8076-a4b64f280406 to http://inherit.stateheritage.wa.gov.au/Public/Inventory/Details/271adca7-048f-4474-8076-a4b64f280406

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City of Fremantle Centenary Building
is the City of Fremantle Centenary Building listed on the State Register of Heritage Places (per lead sentence of List of heritage places in Fremantle)? There's no number listed in the table, and I couldn't find it (with a quick search) at http://inherit.stateheritage.wa.gov.au. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:00, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
 * it was demolished in the 1960s... JarrahTree 13:09, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Given that it does not appear to be on the Register, I've removed it from the list. If it is on the register, feel free to put it back on the list, with a reference. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:11, 23 January 2018 (UTC)