Talk:List of indigenous languages of Argentina

Deleted languages
I have restored the deleted languages for different reasons:

-Mariano (t/c) 08:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
 * This list is not about still used languages but about languages of Native Americans (aboriginals, or whatever the prefer to be called) of present Argentina. I restored those extinct languages that have been deleted.
 * Chiriguano was removed to the list without any reference supporting the decision. According to this reference, its spoken mainly in Bolivia but also spoken in Argentina.
 * Chulupi and Mataco where deleted for derogatory when consensus was not yet reached.

Let's go on your objections:
 * 1) The article explicitly states: "several Native American languages are in use". Doesn't that mean that are still in use? How could a extinct and fragmentarily known language be "in use"? Chané, e.g., has been extinct for over three centuries. If the list is intended to include also extinct languages (which I think it should) then the enumeration should be expanded to include them.
 * 2) I didn't "remove" Chiriguano; just replaced it by a more conventional form, Eastern Bolivian Guaraní or Western Argentinian Guaraní. As per your own source, that also uses "Eastern Bolivian Guaraní" as main entry, the name "chiriguano" (a Quechua word) is derogatory. Indeed, it literally means "cold shit". Do you like to be called "Sudaca"? :). The ethnical group is called "Avá Guaraní" in Argentina and Paraguay (and this form appears in the official literature), for no reason but making a distinction with other groups of Guaraní stock as the Mbyá. The language is also known as Guarayo and other denominations. Some authors (see bibliography below) use the term to include five closely related ethnical subgroups (whose languages are also closely related):
 * 3) Tapieté[1] subgroup (Yanaigua, Nanaiga, Ñanágua[2], Tapy-y-i, Guasurangüe, [Guaraní] Ñandéva[3], Tirumbae) from Paraguayan Chaco;
 * 4) Western Guaraní subgroup (Guarayo, Mbyá[4], Avá):
 * 5) Avá-Cordillerano subgroup, spoken mainly in Bolivia, called Chahuanco or Chawanku (another derogatory term) in the Argentine border missions; the Izoceño people of Argentina call it also Simba and Tembéta;
 * 6) Izoceño subgroup, from Bolivia and Argentina, also called Tapïi, Tïmãka, Tapui and Tapiete; and
 * 7) Chané subgroup, of Arawak origin but "guaranized"[5]. The Chané people are considered Izoceño in Bolivia, but some distinction seems to be present in Argentina since they live apart from other Chiriguano peoples.
 * 8) As you may see from above and from the bibligraphy below, "Chiriguano" (even derogatory, accepted within the academical circles) seems to be more apt to define a related group of peoples[6] speaking two languages (Western Guaraní and Tapieté). If we keep the Chiriguano denomination, Tapieté should be deleted. Otherwise, it seems better to make a distinction between Western Guaraní and Tapieté.
 * 9) I didn't "delete" "Chulupi" and "Mataco", but replaced them by less derogatory names, which are also more precise. "Mataco" in the literature refers not only to Wichí peoples and lanaguages, but also to an ethnolinguistical group (more properly called "Mataguayo"[7]) including Wichí, Chorote, Nivaklé and Maká. On "Mataco", please see the discussion in the talk page. Regarding "Chulupí", the term Nivaklé is their self-denomination, and Niwaqlé qłi'is is used for the language. Most modern literature uses Nivaklé (and its variants: Niwaklé, Nivaclé -- see bibliography below). They are called Ashluslay (ałuła-j) by the Chorote, Suwah by the Wichí, Sevhen by the Enlhet, Sothegakaik(?) by the Toba and the Pilagá, Wentusix by the Maká and Etehúa by the Tapieté.

''[I made a stop at this point and Mariano replied before the comments were completed. It doesn't make much sense to go into deeper detail, but to invest the energies in improving the article instead. After that, I just added a couple more references] Cinabrium.''

Mariano's reply
I see you have a good knowledge on the subject, which I don't posses. I would like to see all this information reflected in the Wikipedia, but it would be good if we first agree on the way to do it.

You state that some names are derogative, and are generally used to refer to a range of similar or connected languages. I believe its important to keep such denominations, but it should be stated in the article the origin of the name and its connotation. It would be also very good to have a list of the languages that this terms group, both in these articles as well as in the List of NA languages article.

I understand your dislike for such names, but unfortunately they are widely used, and as an encyclopedia we can not overlook this fact.

I really hope you find both the time and will to work on the subject adding and correcting the information we have. Don't forget, though its is always difficult to achieve impartiality, that this is not a place to state your way of thinking, but rather a place to search for facts.

Take care, and good wiking, Mariano (t/c) 08:42, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Derogatory names and what the list is for
Mariano,

(These comments apply to Mataco too.)

I'm not advocating for deletion of the names considered derogatory, but for using more "appropriate" names, and at the same time keeping as good quality standards as possible. WP has an entry for nigger, stating its pejorative nature, and I expect to bring the same concept to the names applied to aboriginal peoples and languages. The use of derogatory names for foreign people is very common in all languages: "German" in Russian is немецкий, a name rooted in немой ("mute"). But perhaps chiriguano sets some kind of "pejorativeness record", also because it's widely used in literature; even some modern Quechua dictionaries, more or less conscious of the aberration, translate chiriwanu: tribes from the West :)

Since the article is about "Native American languages in Argentina" (and not " from Argentina") we should include Aymara (as already done) and Paraguayan Guaraní (including its modern colloquial form, Jhopará or Yopará), which are spoken by migrant communities from Bolivia and Paraguay and their descendants. On the other hand, if we stick to languages of Argentine aboriginals, Aymara should go out of the list. In more simple terms: we need to define the subject more precisely: is it (a) "languages spoken by aboriginal peoples of the current Argentine territory"; or (b) "American aboriginal languages spoken in Argentina". Please take into account that Paraguayan Guaraní, e.g., is not only spoken by aboriginals, but also by mestizo and European people (and used as lingua franca among many different communities), particularly in Paraguay, so the distinction is significant. I would prefer the second, with marginal notes for the languages not directly related to Argentine aboriginal peoples. My proposal is as follows:

Proposal
Aboriginal languages in Argentina |____ Living |      |_____Active |      |       |____ Tupi-Guaraní family |      |       |          |___ Subgroup I             |       |       |                   |___ Paraguayan Guaraní |      |       |                   |___ Western Guaraní (Avá Guaraní or "chiriguano)             |       |       |                   |___ Mbyá Guaraní             |       |       |                   |___ Chiripá             |       |       |                   |___ Kaiwá             |       |       |                   |___ Tapieté             |       |       |____ Guaycuruan family             |       |       |          |___ Qom group             |       |       |                   |___ Mocoví                |       |       |                   |___ Pilagá             |       |       |                   |___ Toba             |       |       |____ Mataguayo ("mataco") family             |       |       |          |____Wichí group ("mataco")             |       |       |          |        |___ Nocten (Oktenay)             |       |       |          |        |___ Güisnay (Wenhayéy) |      |       |          |        |___ Vejoz (Wehwos) |      |       |          |____Nivaklé group ("chulupí") |      |       |          |        |___ Forest Nivaklé (Yita'a lhavós) |      |       |          |        |___ River Nivaklé (Chishamne and Shichaam lhavos) |      |       |          |____Chorote group |      |       |                   |___ Jo'wuwa or Iyo'wujwa (Manjui) |      |       |                   |___ Yofwaja or Iyojwa'ja (Eklenjui) |      |       |____ Quechua family |      |       |          |____Quechua II C             |       |       |                    |___ Southern Bolivian (Kolla) |      |       |                    |___ Santiago del Estero Quichua |      |       |____ Araucanian family |      |       |          |_____________ Mapudungun (Mapuche) |      |       |____ Isolated and unclassified |      |                  |_____________ Aymara |      |____ Endangered or nearly extinct |              |____ Chon family |              |          |_____________ Aönikën (Tehuelche) |              |          |_____________ Śelknam (Ona) |              |____ Lule-vilela family |              |          |_____________ Vilela |              |____ Isolated and unclassified |                         |_____________ Gennaken (Puelche) |___ Extinct (an imcomplete list) |____ Arawakan family |         |_____________ Chané |____ Charruan (?) |         |_____________ Güenoa |         |_____________ Chaná |____ Guaicuruan family |         |_____________ Abipón |____ Lule-vilela family |         |_____________ Lule-toconoté |____ Isolated and unclassified |___ Huarpe group |        |___ Allentiac or Alyentiyak |        |___ Millcayac or Milykayak |_____________ Cacán |_____________ Kunza, or Likanantaí (Atacameño) |_____________ Henia-camiare or Hênia-kamiare |_____________ Het |_____________ Yagan, Yámana or Háusi-kúta

For each language, a brief note would explain the number of speakers, geographical distribuition and some other features as needed, more or less along the lines of this article in Spanish Wikipedia.

I'll try to write it ASAP, and to get some bibliography into it (not as much as I quoted above, I hope :)). It will take a little, but we could have a version in a couple of days. Cinabrium 20:53, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm impressed. Please go ahead. I have very little knowledge of NatAmLangs but I think I can flesh things up once the skeleton is in place. Also, maybe this should have a discussion place somewhere on the board. I prefer option (b): "American aboriginal languages spoken in Argentina". First we should see what is already there, what needs to be renamed, how we will separate languages, dialects, linguistic families, tribes, ethnic groups, etc. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 14:53, 10 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Wow, nice chart! Worth including in the article, missa think. Pablo, with spoken you would loose the extinct languages. Should we have 3 articles: Languages of Argentina, Extinct Languages and Spoken Languages? If things grow might be better. -Mariano (t/c) 07:17, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Work started
I've just started the rework of the article, one section at a time. The chapter on "extinct languages" is more or less complete, i.e., it now contains all the extinct languages I have notice of. However, there are more; some are just speculative, because every detail on the people that spoke them got lost in the darkness of time and "civilization" :) I'll appreciate your comments, particularly about wether or not the inclusion of the chart makes sense (I would like to "beautify" it, but I don't know why and don't want to overload the article with an unneeded image). Cinabrium 05:50, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Great work. Looking good. I think the chart is good. It could be moved to the bottom perhaps, but I wouldn't make an image out if it, because it would take the same space, and Cut&Paste wouldn't be possible.
 * I think it would be good if you added something about being probably more extinct undocumented languages at the beginning of that section. Explicatory text is always welcomed, same thing for the other sections; if you think there is something worth mentioning that could prevent someone from getting a wrong impression, then it can't hurt (much). Keep up the good work, Mariano (t/c) 08:41, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Capitalizing "indigenous" only applies to North America
Per User talk:Bohemian Baltimore, "the indigenous Wikiproject is only for North America, and only applies to North American articles." — Sago tree spirit  (talk) 07:47, 23 November 2023 (UTC)