Talk:List of international rugby union players killed in World War I

Incorrectly named and laid out article
Although an article that is probably worth creating, but under the title 'List of international rugby union players killed in action during the First World War'. I will be suggestion that it is deleted. All the individuals will need to have articles created as they are recognised international players, but the naming is incorrect and the articles are not being created in the correct standard. Also many have already been created, the Welsh players are a case in point. Please discuss this on the WikiProject:Rugby union page. Thanks FruitMonkey (talk) 21:47, 5 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I know this is early in international rugby terms, but did any Americans from the national team (first game 1912) die? --MacRusgail (talk) 18:36, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Olympic rugby
Seeing as Germany, Australasia, France and Great Britain all played rugby at the 1900 & 1908 Olympics, it would be interesting to know if any of these players lost their lives - Rugby_union_at_the_1900_Summer_Olympics Rugby union at the 1908 Summer Olympics--MacRusgail (talk) 16:51, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Other than the numerous uncreated articles about Olympian rugby players, and the numerous ones with no date of death, I'd query the following -


 * Raymond Whittindale died 9 April 1915
 * John Barnett (rugby), "Barnett died in 1918 aged 31 from the effects of meningitis after a three-week battle with pneumonia" - war related?
 * Arthur Wilson (rugby union), died July 1, 1917--MacRusgail (talk) 17:09, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I think I may have found the Arthur Smith in question - the date of death matches anyway - here

Another possibility - here - A. Wilson --MacRusgail (talk) 17:23, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Already listed I see! Will have to keep hunting elsewhere.--MacRusgail (talk) 17:24, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I did discover on the Great War Forum that apparently a roll of honour of rugby union internationals killed in the First World War was drawn up and published in the 20s. It's a pretty rare book these days, but someone on the forum has a copy and will probably look things up.  I can't remember whether the thread was under the general soldiers section, or lookup requests, but it was active within the last month, so it should be too hard to track down.  David Underdown (talk) 17:33, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I notice some discrepancies in the lists, and still trying to get my head round it. Would love to know more about the French intls too.--MacRusgail (talk) 18:53, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I suspect it is highly likely though that one or two people slipped through the net. I'm chasing up the Olympic line just now as it's something which tends to be overlooked. Almost as perilous as family research.


 * Another Olympian possibly killed in WWI? L.F. Dean (GB) someone of same initials died 22/07/1916 and is listed here
 * John Trevaskis, a Cornishman, unusual surname = JG Trevaskis (buried Penzance)? http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/4028526 here]
 * Much more remote possibility, for Richard Jackett, a Cornishman - still the deceased "RC Jackett" - joined the navy which seems to have been common thing for Cornish down the ages. here--MacRusgail (talk) 18:51, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

H. Brougham
Is this Henry Brougham (racquets player)? I have seen Brougham's name on a list of English rugby fatalities, but the racquets player appears to have died in 1923, and was also a cricketer -See here--MacRusgail (talk) 16:43, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes it's the same person, and the only Brougham to have represented England. So I don't think we can have him on the list of fatalities. Where did you find the information that he died in the War? FruitMonkey (talk) 20:12, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Got it, he was badly injured in the War, was invalided out and died from complications of his wounds five years later. Although his death was caused by war wounds he is not classed as KIA, there are several players who went downhill badly after the war, but they should not be on the list. FruitMonkey (talk) 20:16, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * There would be a case to be made for included anyone listed by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (or an equivalent). For CWGC, that includes anyone who died in military service up until 31 August 1921, or who died from war-related causes after discharge from teh armed forces up to that date, so if Brougham had died a couple of years earlier, there might have been a case for mentioning him.  Or you cold take the approach of Cricket in the Great War which loos at the wider impact, rather than just deaths.  David Underdown (talk) 20:46, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I think a specific article looking at the impact of the War similair to the cricket article would be a very good idea. The trouble with looking at those who survived the initial conflict but died later is where to draw the line. It is difficult to link some deaths with war wounds or other causes, and where does suicide then link, as some internationals died by their own hand not long after returning from the Front. FruitMonkey (talk) 21:02, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * That's why I suggested using the CWGC as a reference. If they are listed by them, they are officially considered to be "war dead".  Other countries presumably have their own criteria, but so long as we stick to those we have a justifiable yard-stick.  David Underdown (talk) 16:56, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. I'll put something about Henry Brougham in the intro para to the English section. It does seem a bit unfair that folk who die of dysentry during the War get listed, but ones who die of war wounds after 1918 don't, but there you go. In really nasty cases, these things can take years to kill.--MacRusgail (talk) 16:29, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

South Africa and Scotland done
The articles for SA, Scotland and Wales all seem to have been done. There is an excellent resource at the Springbok Hall of Fame, but it is difficult to reference. Several of the Boks have nicknames quite different to the ones on their birth certificates.--MacRusgail (talk) 16:29, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I have a couple of heavy duty books on the 'Boks, give me a shout if you need help on any of them. FruitMonkey (talk) 18:07, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, if you can improve them, yes please! Better get away soon, Hogmanay and all! ;)--MacRusgail (talk) 22:52, 31 December 2009 (UTC) p.s. Happy New Year...

France
I have created several articles on French players, by a basic cut, paste and translation method. Since my French doesn't really extend to rugby, I had to look up some of the terminology, including the names of player positions. More details can be found at the main RU project discussion board.-MacRusgail (talk) 18:50, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

The folk in question - Joé Anduran, Marcel Burgun, Marc Giacardy, Pierre Guillemin, Henri Lacassagne, Gaston Lane Alfred Mayssonnié‎, Theódore Varvier

Helpful article???
Came across this while researching another article... in the small shance that it provides some piece of information not yet covered I thought I would post it here: Rugby Union - Toll of warSauliH (talk) 07:06, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Possible additions
First, thanks to all the editors of this page. It's a great assets of knowledge and evidence how much an entire generation sacrificed. I'm a Yank and don't know enough about Rugby Union to add to the list, as I don't know the difference between a minor local team and a top ranked team. But I did run across some names in articles through Google Archives search that may be meet the notability criteria to be added. Below is the list with the link to the original news article. I would appreciate it if someone more knowledgeable than I would go through the list and select which ones could be added to the article page:


 * James Whiteside Fraser McManamey - Australia The Sydney Morning Herald - Sep 20, 1915 and SICK AND WOUNDEDEvening Post, Volume XC, Issue 70, 20 September 1915, Page 8 (see bottom of page).
 * Eric Billington - Canada - The Evening Record - Dec 4, 1915 - article is not certain he was killed. May take further research to verify.
 * Corporal Hill (no first name in article, just lists his rank and surname) Australia – THE FALLEN AND WOUNDED. AUSTRALIAN FOOTBALLER KILLED.  Ashburton Guardian, Volume XXXV, Issue 8201, 26 July 1915, Page 4
 * Lt. S.R. Haines – South Africa – Transvall Sportsmen at the front IN SOUTH AFRICA Evening Post, Volume LXXXIX, Issue 48, 26 February 1915, Page 11


 * A. Johnny" Verge. Australia - AUSTRALIAN LIST Evening Post, Volume XC, Issue 73, 24 September 1915, Page 2 A. "


 * Roland H. Owen – England - An England Rugby player The Glasgow Herald - Apr 26, 1915


 * Nulla Roberts – Australia – ROLL OF HONOUR Evening Post, Volume XC, 7 October 1915, Page 2


 * Joseph Dorning – New Zealand? FAMOUS FOOTBALLER KILLED.Ashburton Guardian, Volume XXXV, Issue 8240, 10 September 1915, Page 5

David Straub (talk) 16:55, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Here's two more:
 * A. LLewellyn - played for Abertillery and Leeds Northern Union teams – ENGLAND LOSE ATHLETES.; Many Prominent Soccer Players Killed in War. Same article mentions other footballers.


 * J. Wilkins - played for England against Wales, on Bristol Club British athletes killed in action. Same article mentions other footballers.

David Straub (talk) 03:47, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Reggie Schwarz
According to his own article, Schwarz survived the war and died of Spanish Flu seven days after the Armistice was signed. Does he belong in this category? WillE (talk) 11:14, 24 February 2012 (UTC)