Talk:List of islands by area/Archive 1

Great Britain
figure for great britain is too low. other wikipedia articles agree it is the 8th largest as does times world atlas. 84000 sq. miles is nearer. Perhaps someone has subtracted the water area which is still on the island?

I'm curious where Sicily and Cyprus would fit into this list. How far would it have to be extended to include those? Michael Hardy 15:11, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

If one considers Australia and Antarctica to be islands why not also include Eurafrasia (81,163,215 km²) and The Americas (37,785,238 km²)? Just a thought... --Biekko 17:21, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I agree with you, but it might take a while before the main editors of wikipedia see it that way. 220.253.136.142 16:53, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

There's inconsistency in describing islands of the UK, e.g. Barra, Sheppey and Shetland Mainland among others are described as being in the United Kingdom, whereas Skye and Mull (and others) as being in Scotland, the Isle of Wight in England, and Anglesey/Ynys Mon as being in Wales. As all the other islands just have their national location rather than subnational (e.g Maui is described as being in the United States and has the US flag next to it rather than being described as being in Hawaii and having the Hawaiian state flag depicted), for consistency within the article they should all be changed to United Kingdom. Arfon-Illtyd (talk) 12:32, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree - I've made this change, but (hopefully) to prevent it being changed back, I've said e.g. "United Kingdom (specifically Scotland)". Bazonka (talk) 12:33, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Did anyone make sure the figures for the continents are actually only mainland? Jakob Stevo 16:53, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * I don't think these numbers belong here anyway. It is a list of islands, not of landmasses. Does anyone vote for keeping them? 12:23, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * I vote to keep - the distinction between landmasses and islands is essentially arbitrary and if the figures are accurate they should stay for comparison's sake. Warofdreams 17:10, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * I also vote to keep, same reasons. Someone from the biggest "island", given that the distinction is arbitrary

-Yeah. I'd say keep the land mass figures for sure. But make sure that they are only the areas of the mainlands, as they are analogous to islands.


 * Vote to keep too. Warofdreams states the case for inclusion well. Oska 12:09, Aug 22, 2004 (UTC)

Does anyone know where the figures came from, and how accurate the source is? My atlas gives slightly different figures for most large islands, and also lists Great Britain as larger than Victoria Island. Worldtraveller 22:41 BST 21/8/04
 * The areas for the smaller islands (below rank 100, the ones I've added) come from various sources. Some come from the Wikipedia articles, some from consensus on various websites or from official websites, and many from http://users.erols.com/jcalder Warofdreams 00:22, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * I added islands 28 to 100 and the values come from http://users.erols.com/jcalder/index.html, too. --apoivre 11:30, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * My source is a Philip's Concise World Atlas, and there's occasionally quite large discrepancies between what it lists and what's here eg Celebes is given by Philips as 189,000sq km/73,000sq mi, and by the current article as 174,600 sq km/67,400 sq mi. I don't have any other printed sources to hand so can't check if Philip's is wrong.  Anyone else?


 * Also, just occurred to me, isn't Celebes called Sulawesi these days?


 * Worldtraveller 21:09, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'd be a bit more careful about the atlases you use. I just found a dandy gaffe in the page: The figures made Great Britain bigger than Victoria, going by km², but vice versa going by sq mi. I have corrected this, as every other source I've ever consulted made Great Britain #8 in the world.

Also, I'm for ditching the sq mi figures. Only one country of any importance uses those anymore, and they clutter the page up something awful. &mdash;&mdash;&mdash;Kelisi 2005/2/7

I'd say keep them. There is nothing better about square kilometers than square miles. And it is a pain in the ass when you want to know a figure like that, and you have to convert after looking it up on the internet.

Adjustments I have now also adjusted a few figures slightly. If my source is anything to go by, some of the figures here were flagrantly wrong. I suspect they may have been copied badly. Anyway, the list I saw has the ranking that I am used to seeing, with Great Britain in eighth place. This is the source:

http://www.galegroup.com/pdf/introduction/GeoDataIntro.pdf

&mdash;&mdash;&mdash;Kelisi 2005/2/7

Margarita Island: which country?
Doesn't Margarita Island belong to Venezuela, rather than to Colombia? --Adam78 22:30, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * The Venezeulan Maragarita Island is listed as such. The smaller (but still large) Colombian one lies in the Rio Magdalena. Warofdreams 11:26, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

A Island with 2100sqkm should be to find on a colombian map. I can't see it. In that case there is no Margarita Island with 2100km² in Colombia and the entrz have to be removed.

The Venezuelan Isla Margarita is 934km²


 * I don't know why you can't see the island. It's shown on the map here. Warofdreams talk 22:19, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Island area versus total area of an island state
Great job with the vex-icons, Café Nervosa (or whoever it was who added them...)! I noticed that the total area of the island of Madagascar is shown as equal to the area of the Republic of Madagascar. So one of those two figures must be wrong, since I myself have visited two separate islands off its eastern coast that are part of the country but clearly not part of the main island. Compare the island of Ireland with the Republic of Ireland (physical body of land as distinct from total land forming a geopolitical entity or administrative unit). Other instances where one has to carefully distinguish between main island and total land area are: Iceland, Greenland, Cuba, Sri Lanka, New Caledonia, Tasmania, Taiwan, Jamaica, Puerto Rico.... Can anyone confirm or double-check? Perhaps a note should be posted after the name of the state emphasizing "X island makes up XX% of the area of X state". Or perhaps there should even be seperate entries on Wikipedia for the main or largest island bearing the same name as a state or other entity, such as is already the case with Hawai'i. I guess these geographically dominant islands are typically called something like the "Big Island", "Mainland, "Main Island", "Grande-Terre", "Isla Grande" and the like in order to avoid confusion with a state bearning the same name as the island. --Big Adamsky 10:17, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I think I have now solved this ambiguity fairly well by linking Main Islands bearing the same name as a geopolitical entity to "Geography of..." rather than to the main entry of the word, where no separate entry exists for the main island itself. (Bahrain -> Geography of Bahrain; Tasmania -> Geography of Tasmania, etc.). I admit that it may seem clumsy to call these landmasses "Main Island", but for lack of better word I simply chose that for convenience. Cheers! //Big Adamsky 21:46, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Easter Island missing
I could'nt find Easter Island, also known as Rapa Nui or Isla de Pascua,

--Lfiguero 22:47, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, it has been added (to list of islands smaller than 1000 km2, i.e. "other notable islands").

Flags
All the flags that were recently added appear to greatly slow down the page loading. Perhaps these should be removed. Cafe Nervosa 23:52, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

miles
Is there any need in miles here?--Nixer 03:22, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Africa - Eurasia
I think that the largest island in the world needs a proper name. And I say that it should be named right here on wikipediaJackiemenderchuk 11:56, 3 December 2005 (UTC)jackiemenderchuk


 * I've heard it called Afro-Eurasia before. How about Afeurasica? - Randwicked 13:59, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

great word... too bad it is against the rules to use wikipedia to coin new words Jackiemenderchuk 15:42, 3 December 2005 (UTC)jackiemenderchuk

How about Afrasieur? Simpler to say, surely?

I don't know why it's considered 3 different continents anyway. It's essentially "what's left" of Pangaea, why not call it that?

Large Islands
I have just found out that there are no locks on the suez canal. To me, this means that Africa is an island, whether the canal be man made, or not, there is a sea level waterway between Africa and Sinai. I think that the list of four giant islands at the top of the list should be changed to five.
 * This sounds like it would be worth a note, but the list should reflect the general definitions of landmasses and islands. On a related note, there's no need to add "but smaller than Australia" to the second section heading.  This is obvious, and if explanation is necessary, it's best to keep it out of sections headings which are most useful if they are brief and to the point. Warofdreams talk 13:54, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Giant Islands, figures are all wrong
Well, I have done the checking. I am pretty sure that all the "land mass" figures include all adjacent islands as well, making them completely wrong as far as fitting into a list like this. There should probably be a note a the top of this article saying that it is not trustworthy, and needs work, since we all know that.

AUSTRALIA, worlds smallest continent, worlds largest island
I forward the following web sites for discusssion: http://www.dfat.gov.au/aib/island_continent.html http://www.allinfoaboutaustralia.com/ http://www.calcuttahotel.net/australia.htm http://www.about-australia.com/facts.htm http://www.bourke-p.schools.nsw.edu.au/wherewelive/australia/australia.htm http://www.braingle.com/brainteasers/teaser.php?op=2;id=27459;comm=0

Either you consider Australia a continent in itself (and NOT an island) or you consider Australia as the worlds Largest Island and the largest part of the worlds smallest continent (oceania). Discuss:?


 * Australia is the smallest continent. It is not an island. If it was an island, it wouldn't be the world's biggest, because there would be nothing stopping Antarctica from being an island. And then you could heep going, saying 'why aren't the Americas an island? They're surrounded by water.' Arbitrary cutoffs are important, and this is where we set it. Oceania isn't a continent as it isn't a land mass. Oceania is a political and cultural region. - ҉ Randwicked ҉ 04:32, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The issue you run into on this one is that it is commonly taught in Australian schools that Australia is unique in the fact that it is both an Island and a Continent although it may be taught differently in other parts of the world. Also what needs noting is that Australia has several different meanings. For the purposes of this discussion, "Australia" actually refers to the main land of all the States apart from Tasmania.


 * However we have a couple of issues that needs noting further. The Australia (continent) article correctly defines Australia as being larger than the country of Australia. And using the definition of Continental island from Island, the Australian mainland hits the definition, being a land mass resting the continental shelf of the Continent also known as Australia.


 * So in summary, we are talking about different definitions. The continent of Australia is most certainly not an Island. The main landmass of the country of Australia is an Island. - --TheRack 08:19, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem with this reasoning is that the main landmass of a continent is, by convention, not called an island. This is purely a convention, and it is extremely difficult to come up with other reasons as to why Australia may not be an island.  However, were it to be included as an island, you would have to also include Antarctica, and presumably the other continental landmasses. Warofdreams talk 22:58, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Most people would probally agree it is debatable if Australia can be considered the world largest island or not, however I think it would satisfy everyone if a note was added to the article mentioning this fact, that Australia technically can be considered an Island but is generally regarded as a continent.

AUSTRALIA IS NOT A CONTINENT! it is a country. Listing "Australia" as the smallest continent is false. The continental plate that Australia is on is called the "oceanic plate", or Oceania. The country of Australia consists of a number of islands (the mainland, Tasmania, Christmas Island, etc...), of which, the mainland is the biggest. Therefore, the mainland of Australia is the biggest island, while the continent of Oceania is the smallest continent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abbs 219 (talk • contribs) 11:41, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

data sources
The data seem to be from a mix of different sources. We should use one primary source where available such as the linked UN list and use official government data for others not on the UN list with citations. I'll try and fix this up over the next few days. Polaron | Talk 15:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Question
Why is Australia not considered an independent island? The continent of Australia includes numerous other land masses, such as parts of Indonesia and New Zealand, where as the Commonwealth of Australia occupies all of the island of Australia.

I feel that it shoud be counted as the world's largest island, as that is what it is.


 * No, if we were to follow your reasoning, then Africa-Eurasia would be the world's largest island. Continental landmasses are not usually regarded as islands, and we shouldn't be creating new definitions here. Warofdreams talk 05:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

We dont really have a choice but to make a definition, since there is none already in place. 220.253.136.219 12:12, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Bathurst Island
In the list of islands with more than 1,000km2, there is Bathurst Island, showing as belonging to Australia, but as you can see, that links to the island in Canada. (Which has an area of 16,000km2, and is already in the table). Therefore, I would assume it refers to Bathurst Island, Northern Territory, but the Bathurst island in the table has 1,693km2 listed next to it, not the 2,100km2 that Bathurst island supposedly has. What is it supposed to be? Iorek85 07:34, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

No one else has noticed the ref links haven't worked since 00:41, 24 May 2006 Polaron???
71.197.237.5 02:07, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Ranking Errors
According to many sites I visit here andhere, the tasmanian mainland island is larger than the country of sri lanka(including external islands), but why is sri lanka larger on this list? I have tried to correct this error numerous times, but to no effect. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.20.35.28 (talk) 04:57, 15 December 2006 (UTC).
 * What this needs is some reliable figures. Wikipedia does not currently have any figures for these islands.  We have an area for the entire nation of Sri Lanka, and one for the entire state of Tasmania.  These figures are of no use in this article.  I've added the figures from Joshua Calder's Island Info, which isn't an ideal source, but is better than nothing, and the figures at least look plausible.  If anyone has better sourced figures - remember, for the islands - please use them to update the article. Warofdreams talk 01:56, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Islay

 * There seems to be a discrepancy over the size of Islay --jmb 22:33, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * List of islands of Scotland
 * Islay 	246.64 	614.52
 * List of islands by area
 * Islay 	620 	239

Definition of "island"
According to the New Oxford Dictionary of English, the definition of "island" is "a piece of land surrounded by water". The Wikipedia itself defines it thus: "An island or isle is any piece of land that is completely surrounded by water." To be honest, I don't know where this "not a continental land mass" came from. I only ever hear it from people claiming that Greenland is the largest island because Australia is a continent. This is anecdotal hearsay rubbish and I will not tolerate it. Not one bit. Look up any definition of "island" and you will be hard-pushed to find one with such obscure specifications. It is entirely un-neutral point of view to assume this anecdotal definition. Either of the folowing would be more neutral point of view than having a separate ranking order for the different types of "island":


 * 1) Just an order, but no ranking numbers
 * 2) Two ranking numbers (it would actually end up being more, since there would also be various other definitions) for each "island".

It would be a bit over the top to remove the ranking numbers altogether, and more than one rank would be confusing, so one rank number for each island is probably best. What makes most sense to me would be to mention both definitions in the wording of the article, but in terms of the ranking order, just have one list starting at 1 and working down, as this is more simple and less arbitrary. Bejjer 01:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You obviously haven't tried very hard, then. For a rough survey, at – over half the entries make (or mention) the distinction between continents and islands.  The meaning of the word "island", as of any word, is defined by usage and thus any concise definition will fail to capture the full meaning.  NPOV doesn't come into it. –EdC 01:50, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, OK, I didn't try that hard, but the only definitions I did find didn't mention continents. Yes, words are defined by usage, and I think most people use "island" to mean a piece of land surrounded by water. Even if most don't, many do, so of course "NPOV" comes into it. My own personal theory is that people only started arguing about whether Greenland or Australia is the biggest island is because the other islands were too big for them to notice, and/or because they didn't have nice convenient names (although Antarctica does) being made up of several countries or even continents.

Thinking about it, it would be far more logical to simply have a page of "largest land masses" which would nicely escape the problem. The term "island" could get a mention in the article and it could be said that the term is rejected for being too vague (due to some crazy definition that people have somehow come up with). I don't know how things really work on here, but perhaps the largest island page could redirect there (is that the sort of thing that happens?). Bejjer 17:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Not an expert here but current usage does seem to make a distinction between continent and island. I doubt that there is a significant number of people who view Africa as an island rather than a continent. While there is not necessarily a clear scientific distinction, the term island generally means a land mass surrounded by water and that is not a continent. The question then is what is a continent, although I think there are some criteria for what makes something a continent based on tectonic plates or biodiversity or something. In any case, just like planet was redefined recently, it is possible that the usage of island could in the future be redefined (either by natural linguistic evolution or by imposition of an international geographic authority) to include all land masses surrounded by water. But at present, islands are differentiated from continents by conventional/popular usage. --Polaron | Talk 18:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * What Polaron said. Yes, the current usage is untidy (as are all terms, to some extent) and yes, the (super-)continental landmasses are islands in some sense (world island redirects to Africa-Eurasia), but if common usage says that Greenland is the world's largest island etc. then that's what we have to follow.  Rejecting "island" for being too vague would make thing tidier, but would most likely be original research. –EdC 18:48, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

There is deabte anyway, as some people call Australia the biggest island. Also I wouldn't call it research just to rename them as land masses. And from that source EdC provided, one of the definitions was "relatively small body of land surrounded entirely by water." It makes it sound like being the world's biggest island is like being the world's tallest dwarf. It is really quite meaningless. Bejjer 19:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I've added a reasoning for restarting the ranking. I suppose we ought to find sources for this. –EdC 19:39, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

As the definition of an island is so difficult to pin down, as people consider some things islands and some continents, why not just list everything in "land masses"?

Next Topic of Discussion
How do you define the area of a land mass. Is it all ground above the water level? Or is it the two dimensional footprint above water level? But then at what point in the tidal flows do we take the above water level measurements? Convention may make this observation trival, but I just read alot of discussion regarding the correct land area size with changes less than could be accounted for considering some of the tidal differences let alone considering the changes a few mountains would make. I once was offered the chance to buy a lot whose land surface area was almost twice the size of lot I was being sold. Across the back yard was a fifty foot deep ravine about 20 foot across at the top and the property line was 10 feet the other side of the ravine and almost a 100 feet from the near side. Convention says Latitude and Longitude determine area but that still does not account for tides, big lakes, rivers that are only there half a year, and shrinkage occuring in the Alaskan islands due to the ocean eating away the permafrost, or volcanoes adding to the land areas. michael sunday 01:49, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not really a problem. We just have to list sources and point out where they disagree.  Let the geographers worry about how to measure land area.  And if you think this is bad, consider the list of countries by length of coastline. –EdC 03:42, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Australia vs Greenland; Island vs Continent
Some people have said that current usage distinguishes between an island and a continent. That may be true in some areas, but it will not be true in others. I actually think that most people really don't care, and don't really think too much about what the definition of an island is: if asked, I think that most people will just say it is a land mass surrounded by water. Now, if you pressed them about details, like if you asked them whether the Afro-eurasian landmass would then also be the largest island, then you would force them to refine that definition; but I believe that is just needlessly complicating the issue. I propose we just keep it simple: define island as merely any landmass surrounded by water. That is clear, widely used (although not necessarily universal), and non-contradictory. It is also OED's definition (apparently).

Now, most people either accept that Greenland or Australia is the largest island, and the definition I propose gives the distinction to neither, which is why some people will oppose this suggested definition. However, I think that what we are actually doing is confusing the concept of an island, and an island-country. When people say Australia/Greenland is the largest country, I believe what they really mean to say is that Australia/Greenland is the largest island-country, which still remains true. Note also that, in line with what's commonly accepted, Antarctica would not be the largest island-country since it is not regarded as being a country in the conventional sense. Krea 19:29, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It would be interesting to see the OED definition; all the detailed definitions I can find state that an island is smaller than a continent - including older versions of our own article, although that detail seems to have recently disappeared from it. Warofdreams talk 23:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Not sure what you mean by an island-country - would that exclude divided islands like Ireland, New Guinea and Hispaniola? –EdC 00:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Dictionary definitions
Putting this here for reference in the discussion. All direct quotes from the latest online versions.
 * Oxford English Dictionary
 * Island: 1.a. A piece of land completely surrounded by water.
 * Formerly used less definitely, including a peninsula, or a place insulated at high water or during floods, or begirt by marshes, a usage which survives in particular instances, as Portland Island, Hayling Island, Mochras or Shell Island, etc.
 * Continent: 5.a. One of the main continuous bodies of land on the earth's surface.
 * Formerly two continents were reckoned, the Old and the New; the former comprising Europe, Asia, and Africa, which form one continuous mass of land; the latter, North and South America, forming another. (These two continents are strictly islands, distinguished only by their extent.) Now it is usual to reckon four or five continents, Europe, Asia, Africa, and America, North and South; the great island of Australia is sometimes reckoned as another, and geographers have speculated on the existence of an Antarctic Continent.
 * Oxford American Dictionary of Current English
 * Island: 1. a piece of land surrounded by water.
 * Continent: 1. any of the main continuous expanses of land (Europe, Asia, Africa, N. and S. America, Australia, Antarctica).
 * American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language
 * Island: 1. (abbr. Isl. or Is. or I.) A land mass, especially one smaller than a continent, entirely surrounded by water
 * Continent: 1. One of the principal land masses of the earth, usually regarded as including Africa, Antarctica, Asia, Australia, Europe, North America, and South America.
 * Merriam Webster Collegiate Dictionary
 * Island: 1a tract of land surrounded by water and smaller than a continent
 * Continent: 4a one of the six or seven great divisions of land on the globe
 * Webster's 3rd New International Dictionary
 * Island: 1a a tract of land surrounded by water and smaller than a continent
 * Continent: 5a one of the great divisions of land on the globe
 * specif : a large body of land differing from an island or a peninsula in its size and in its structure, which is that of a large basin bordered by mountain chains (as No. America, So. America, Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, and Antarctica)


 * You beat me to it. I was going to say that I would check tomorrow or the day after. OED principally says "surrounded by water", whilst M-W specifically says "smaller than a continent". Well, personally I'd give OED the nod based on its reputation, but the fact that M-W says something different complicates the issue. I would suggest that we can conclude that either viewpoint would be justified (although, again, I would personally give OED the advantage). As we are making an encyclopedia entry, I believe we should chose a classification that is as clear as possible. We should obviously state this ambiguity of definition in the article, but I still think the format we should adopt is that of all bodies being surrounded by water being called islands. Edc rightly points out that the OED definition would exclude calling Ireland a island, and this would be contrary to a few people's experience of what an island is. However, I would add that we are inevitably going to have to annoy somebody: some people will be as equally upset that Australia is not considered an island. So again, I believe that the clearer and more clear-cut definition should prevail. Krea 02:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Er, is the OED saying that nobody knows whether Antarctica exists yet? john k 22:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Big Island wrong
The Big Island of Hawaii is listed beneath the Fiji Island yet when you link to their pages Hawaii is bigger.
 * Put the correct info then as long as it is referenced to a more authoritative source, e.g. the national census authority of the country to which the island belongs. If the corresponding Wikipedia articles for the islands have sourced their area figures, then use that. Otherwise, it might be best to leave the UN figures alone. --Polaron | Talk 22:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The data for either Martha's Vineyard or Mount Desert Island must be wrong
Google Searches have turned up 108 square miles (280 square kilometers) for Mount Desert Island, while at the same time indicating that it is the third largest island of the East Coast of the United States, after Martha's Vineyard and Long Island. The area for Martha's Vineyard in this list shows it as smaller than Mount Desert Island, so there must be an error somewhere.Justin Grunau 18:10, 20 May 2007 (UTC)