Talk:List of islands of Scotland/Archive 1

Scotosay and Sgeotosaigh
I think the red links for the islands of Scotosay and Sgeotosaigh may be mispelling for the same island in Loch Tarbert off the coast of Harris which the scottish parliament defines as Scotasay/Sgotasaigh (gaelic).--JBellis 18:04, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Islay

 * There seems to be a discrepancy over the size of Islay --jmb 22:32, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * List of islands of Scotland
 * 5 	Islay 	246.64 	614.52
 * List of islands by area
 * Islay 	620 	239

Haswell-Smith, the only reference the 'List of islands of Scotland' article page quotes, agrees with the latter and I have amended accordingly. The two lists are now consistent. Ben MacDui (Talk) 09:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Largest islands in Scotland and Location of Grimsay B and Flodda
The areas provided are not referenced and contradict those provided by Haswell-Smith. As Template:Infobox Scottish island appears on more and larger islands this is causing minor difficulties in providing a magnitude rank. Unles someone can provide references for the existing numbers I will replace them.

Also, does anyone know precisely where the islands of Flodda (pop 11) and Grimsay A (pop 19) in the List of inhabited islands by Population Size are located? These names are not used by Haswell-Smith and whilst there are several small 'Flodday' contenders and I can't see any obvious evidence of a second Grimsay. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I imagine that Grimsay B is the island marked "Griomasaigh" on the OS map; it lies on the B891 and is connected to Benbecula by a causeway, which would be why Haswell-Smith doesn't mention it. Flodda is on the north side of Benbecula, east of Gramsdale, and is also connected to the larger island by a causeway. Warofdreams talk 01:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Flodda = Flodaigh on the OS map makes perfect sense. Is there any reason not to change the name to the latter? However the 'Grimsay/Griomasaigh' has lots of houses and must surely be the Grimsay B at the External Link Scottish Island Network - Population Statistics with a population of over 200. The island called Grimsay A here with a population of 19 does not seem to appear on the main list of islands in the List of islands of Scotland article - although it could be hidden away somewhere under an assumed name! There is a tidal island just north of Griomasaigh with a small settlement called Seana Bhaile and which may be called 'Fraoch-eilean'. In the absence of any other candidates I think this must be Grimsay A. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I was thinking that Grimsay B must be the one we have an article on, lying between Benbecula and North Uist - the populations match up. Changing the name of "Flodda" to "Flodaigh" makes sense to me. Warofdreams talk 13:32, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The General Register Office for Scotland source has solved this one. They call them Grimsay (North), which is the larger of the two and is clearly 'Grimsay B, "Griomasaigh" on the A865; and Grimsay (South), which unlike the former they group with Benbecula. Grimsay (South)/A is to be found at NF 832 471 east of Lionacleit and is on the B891. Ben MacDui (Talk) 20:15, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Largest islands in Scotland
Does the Hoy figure include the island of South Walls which is linked by causeway? And is Hoy really the same size as Bute?--JBellis 21:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The short answers are 'yes' and 'yes'. As we noted at Template talk:Infobox Scottish island Haswell-Smith's general definition of an island is unsatisfactory. However generally speaking in the text (as opposed to the Appendix) he does differentiate between the sizes of islands that are connected by causeways or bridges. From this I have been able to generate a table of the 100 largest islands - using a more normal definition. South Walls is an exception (for no obvious reason). If anyone can find a source for the area of South Walls/Hoy alone I'd be happy to include them. Even without South Walls, Hoy may still be bigger than Bute - but it would be close. Thanks for picking up on this. Ben MacDui (Talk) 21:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, the answers should be 'yes and 'no' . I didn't realise that you meant 'exactly the same size as Bute' which of course it isn't. I have corrected the entry. Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

South Walls and all that
The land areas used in both the list and the Infoboxes are all Haswell-Smith's estimates. We are, I think, agreed that his definition is flawed: "an Island is a piece of land or group of pieces of land which is entirely surrounded by water at Lowest Astronomical Tide and to which there is no permanent means of dry access" on the grounds that the last clause excludes Skye etc.

However, there area various islands on the article list which also fail his definition as they are tidal (e.g. Davaar, Baleshare, Shuna) .This only becomes an issue for the area rank of the islands after about No. 50, which is roughly where South Walls would be. My understanding is that until about the beginning of the 20th century South Walls was a tidal island but is now connected to Hoy by a causeway. For consistency it would ideally be treated as an island in its own right, but I can't find a reference that provides a separate land area for it. (Uncharacteristically Haswell-Smith does not supply one although he does for other tidal islands).

There are various options, but it seems to me that the most credible and consistent one is to:
 * a)	define an island as 'land that is surrounded by seawater on a daily basis, but not necessarily at all stages of the tide, excluding human devices such as bridges and causeways.'
 * b)	Provide South Walls with an assumed area of 'circa 850 ha'. (It is easy to see from any map e.g. that it is very close in size to its immediate neighbour Flotta, which is 876 ha).

I will proceed on this basis unless there are objections. Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This sounds like a good plan to me. Warofdreams talk 00:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Burra
Another anomaly. Burra appears in the list of islands, but its population is distributed between West Burra and East Burra. The independent status of these bridge connected islands is confirmed here. I suspect that 'Burra' is an imposter. Ben MacDui (Talk) 10:56, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, checking on Google Maps shows that while it is often referred to as if it were a single island, there are indeed two islands connected by a bridge. Warofdreams talk 01:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

List issues
Hopefully the intro and images cheer things up a bit. If the {listdev} tag is ever to be removed there may need to be some kind of clear protocol. I suggest somthing along the lines of - 'the list is of all islands greater in size than 40 hectares/100 acres per Haswell Smith, plus other notable islands (identified with an 's' or similar). Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Having looked at the existing alphabetical list several options present themselves. The main issue to be addressed is that given that the list runs to about 300 islands at present and there are an estimated 500 not on it, many of which are little skerries would it make sense to:
 * a)	Accept that the list is always likely to be incomplete and leave it the way it is?
 * b)	Create a main list of 200 islands larger than say 100 acres per Haswell-Smith and a subsidiary list for smaller islands.
 * c)	Exclude all smaller islands unless they meet certain notability criteria.
 * d)	Keep one list but indicate where the island is 'small' per the above.

I favour (b) myself, simply because it enables a single definitive list of larger islands to be created. It means that there is not one single alphabetical list, but using 'Find' easily overcomes this difficulty

There are a few other conundrums to be fixed. All the 'Eileans' are under 'E' but 'Isle Martin' is under M. There are one or two others, and they should be 'I's.

The Group/Locations are a little inconsistent and not always helpful in locating the island. It's a tedious task but I think the island Groups per Haswell-Smith and Template talk:Infobox Scottish island would make most sense, assuming the enthusiasm could be generated to undertake the changes.

Some entries are not islands but archipelagos. There could also be a separate short list of 'small archipelagos' e.g. Crowlins, Flannans, Ascribs etc. which I will attempt asap. Ben MacDui (Talk) 17:30, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Height
Islands ranked by height would be useful too. --MacRusgail 19:35, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It can be done. A list of those with heights over circa 1,000 ft would include about 22 islands. Great picture of Inchgarvie btw. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for doing this. Inchgarvie's not a picture I took. I tried to the other day, but that one came out better. Normally the bridge gets in the way. --MacRusgail 18:22, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Progress
Re the above discussion about 'List issues', I started (b) but it is a lengthy exercise, and the main list would then omit smaller inhabited islands e.g. Easdale and the notable Staffa. If we were using a database that could be manipulated to create new lists automatically, it might make sense, but for now (a) seems like the path of least resistance. I have placed a short sentence at the top of the list which indicates that it is 'complete' but with the additional smaller islands. Unless anyone has a better suggestion I think this list is now pretty complete and well worth an attempt at featured status. Ben MacDui (Talk) 15:42, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

As a final tweak I have moved Isleornsay from former islands - (I can't find any evidence that it is one), put it in 'Places which are not islands' and added Ornsay to tidal islands. Ben MacDui (Talk) 11:56, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Derivation of 'Uist'/'Uibhist'
Haswell-Smith claims that the derivation of the name is apparently that 'yoo-ist' means 'west' in Old Norse. However, having raised this at Talk:Old Norse (which sounds oddly like an instruction) those kind enough to engage state that:
 * "the Old Norse word for 'west' is 'vestr' "- which is of course congruent with 'Westray', and that
 * "there are no other Scandinavian languages in which Uist can have any meaning."

If anyone can contribute any other ideas as to the derivation of the Gaelic name Uibhist which presumably long pre-dates the anglified 'Uist' I'd appreciate it. Ben MacDui (Talk) 22:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * This page lists some theories, but fails to cite any sources for them. Still, it's worth a read just to see what other theories are out there Lurker  15:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This is more interesting. This claims Uist was known to the Vikings as Ivist, meaning dwelling. I'll see what the people on the Old Norse talk page think Lurker  15:11, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Good detective work, and a useful reply there. I have slight concern this is veering in the direction of WP:OR but hopefully has not yet reached that shore. I will pitch in there if there are no further replies. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I've incorporated the 'inni-vist' derivation at North & South Uist. Many thanks for your support. Ben MacDui (Talk) 20:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Inchgarvie
I'd dispute listing Inchgarvie as a "former island" because it is linked to the mainland by a bridge. After all, so is Skye. I don't think the fact that the bridge depends on Inchgarvie makes any difference, it's still a bridged island Lurker  14:59, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. If there are no objections I will remove it from this section. Ben MacDui (Talk) 15:51, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

FL candidature
The Featured List application and is on the brink of failing simply because of a lack of reviews (3 so far, minimum 4 support needed.) If folk have good reasons not to support it that's fine by me, but it would be a pity if it failed through apathy. The discussion is here. Ben MacDui (Talk) 09:47, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to all who contributed to the success of both the creation of the list and its recent candidature - especially WOD. I must confess that when I began the exercise I did not anticipate it would result in a loss of information to certain parts of the article (for example there is no longer an easy way to find the population rank of a given island) but we live and learn. Ben MacDui (Talk) 17:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Island groups
Great work on the table. Just one question - why have you changed the Orkney Islands and Shetland Islands links to Orkney Mainland and Shetland Mainland? Surely the former are the island groups? Warofdreams talk 02:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The Islay, Skye, Lewis and Harris etc. groups all relate back to an island which is the dominant land form in the group. The Orkney and Shetland articles are about the archipelagoes as a whole and even have local authority boxes. It seemed more consistent to refer these two groups back to the respective mainlands, although the generic articles have a great deal more information. I can change them back if you think that would be more useful. Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I understand your reasoning, but given that "island groups" is included in the title, that is where I would expect the links to go, and I would prefer the links to go there. For me, the links to specific islands are useful only where there is no article on the most relevant archipelago. Warofdreams talk 23:21, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Point taken - I have suddenly discovered an urgent appointment, but I'll look at this again soon. Is there a 'replace all' function anywhere, short of copying into Word and back out again? Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:52, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Good time to discover an urgent appointment ;) ! I've used AutoWikiBrowser to do the replace all.  It takes a little getting used to, but is much quicker for edits like this, or for applying the same change to many pages, than doing things by hand. Warofdreams talk 23:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank-you. I am afraid I am one of those unfortunates using OS X. Ben MacDui (Talk) 06:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Flodday, Floday, Flodaigh, Fladda, Flodda, Flotta etc.
Although they are for the most part neither populated nor especially notable, islands with the above names can be confusing. Flodday (disambiguation) is now available as a guide for the perplexed (mostly me). Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:12, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, it helps to be clear which island we are talking about. Same problem with Oronsay where the disambiguation page is less polished. Given that they translate (from several languages) as "Flat Island" and "Tidal Island" respectively it is hardly surprising that the names recurr. Finavon 00:48, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed - I won't be volunteering to create 'Eilean Dubh (disambiguation)'! Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:48, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Soemone has already started at Eilean Dubh! Finavon 16:56, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Summer Isles, Oronsay and Flodaigh cont'd.
Isle Ristol article created - it is tidal but referenced as 225 ha (Haswell-Smith 1997 mentions with Tanera Mòr and in SI intro). I presume it should be in the main table (71m; 0 popn), not the smaller islands (<40ha). Agree? Finavon 23:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well spotted! Yes, it should be in the list and added to the tidal islands section too. Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:09, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Done. I see two Oronsay in tidal list - all are tidal (from name), but few are significant. How about putting many islands called Oronsay in the list? Finavon 09:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Far from being given the oxygen of publicity these islands should be reprimanded - clearly at least one is >40ha. I fear Isle Martin (good article btw) may be downgraded yet further in the area stakes. I am beginning to sympathise with Haswell-Smith's outright rejection of tidal islands. How many more can there be? I will check the Oronsay's out and make some positive suggestion when I have made their acquaintance. Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Dear Dr Finavon, I am feeling quite unwell as someone keeps finding new islands! Isle Ristol and Isle Martin are demoted by one rank. I will re-estimate Oronsay, Sunart when I have time and continue discussion above. Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Having re-estimated the sizes I am feeling a little better. 'Oronsay's connection mentioned. I realise the minor disambiguation of the red-linked 'Orasaigh, Sound of Harris west' and 'east' is v. clumsy but I was a bit rushed yesterday. Its somehow hard to imagine that there were not differing local names for them and that the OS was simply a bit lazy. 'Orasaigh, Traigh Bhalaig', and 'Orasaigh, Bagh a Chaise'? I have looked around North Uist and uncovered another small Flodaigh, and Ceallasaigh Mor. The latter is quite possibly >40 ha, but very hard to measure and not even absolutely certain it is an island. Views on this are welcome. Ben MacDui (Talk) 20:45, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid it gets worse! A search of the OS gazetteer lists 13 Orasaigh (and 1 Orasaigh Uisgeabhagh) in the Western Isles! The grid references and (my) descriptions are:

S Uist:
 * South-west (30m)
 * North-east

N Uist: these last 2 were my original N Uist 2
 * N of Vallay
 * Oronsay, Outer Hebrides
 * head of Loch Euphort
 * Loch Amhlasaraigh (west of Tobha Beag)
 * Orasaigh, Sound of Harris east by the hamlet of Bagh a Chaise

Benbecula:
 * Orasaigh Uisgeabhagh
 * Loch Uisgebhagh
 * N of Meanais

Barra:
 * North (38 m)
 * Castlebay (west)
 * Castlebay (east)
 * East

I think Oronsay, Outer Hebrides is the same as Orasaigh, Outer Hebrides, Orasaigh, Sound of Harris west by the hamlet of Greinetobht and Orasaigh (in main list). It appears to be the only one over 40 ha. The other are smaller and all are uninhabited. I propose adding this list to Oronsay with the statement that it is one of the commonest names for Scottish islands - comments/corrections? NB 8 Flodaigh in OS gazetteer. Finavon 23:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I have not looked at all the above, but yes, you are correct, Oronsay, Outer Hebrides is Orasaigh, Sound of Harris west by the hamlet of Greinetobht. I'll take it out of the list. I have up to seven Flodaigh types - if you can list the one(s) missing from the disambig page I will happily add to that. Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:43, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * None missing. I was including Flodaigh Mor and Beag, but not Fladaigh. My list is at Talk:Flodday (disambiguation) Finavon 22:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing this. I wonder if there is such as thing as a 'featured disambiguation page'? With a few photos and a little work providing a paragraph or two on the history and variations for each island.... well perhaps not. Ben MacDui (Talk) 13:13, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps should be a set index article rather than disambiguation. Finavon 22:01, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, an exciting new piece of policy I didn't know about. Flodaigh dismabig is perhaps more like a list than a genuine disambig, but what to call the page - 'List of Scottish islands that are similar in shape and size and are spelled something like Floday' is close, if a little verbose, and the existing point of the page is to help unwary wiki-travellers navigate, not provide information about the islands (other than their real and virtual location). A disambiguity ambiguity perhaps? Ben MacDui (Talk) 09:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Kirkibost
Thanks to WOD for creating this. I have boldly amended the infobox and several points arise.
 * 1) The infobox template now has (to me) indecipherable microformat information. I tried to find out what its purpose was from the User who put it there, but without much success. Kirkibost now has a external link pointer rather then the usual grid reference, although I don't know how this has been acheived. With my dodgy operating system this takes me to  with no obvious onward route to the OS map. Explantions as to how/why etc. gratefully received.
 * 2) I make the island area rank 108, from a spreadsheet I have created to keep track of the Haswell-Smith plus others data. It would be dandy if our fun new sortable table could rank things, but the only wiki-solution I can think of at present is to create a new page simply for the purpose of having these ranks displayed.
 * 3) I changed the 'Group' to make it consistent with the main list, but that this may not be best solution. There is some chatter about this at Template talk:Infobox Scottish island. Ben MacDui (Talk) 09:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It was missing the grid reference! I need to check its accuracy, but it should work. Finavon 10:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * GR is OK. Do you have information to make Uyea larger than Kirkibost? Otherwise I make them joint 107! (who started all this?) Finavon 11:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I blame Haswell-Smith. No I have no info - I have just assumed that tidal islets should be assumed to have a lower rank than non-tidal ones to avoid equal rankings, but it's purely arbitrary. The measurements can surely be only +/- 5% at best. Ben MacDui (Talk) 11:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your work on this - I filled in the infobox by comparing it with some others; looks like I miscalculated the rank. If you are keen, we could resolve your point #2 by adding an "Area rank" column to the table. Warofdreams talk 00:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * True enough, although its a pity the table can't behave more intelligently. No doubt some boffin will come up with something soon. the alternative is currently at WikiProject Scottish Islands/Islands by area per the note below. Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Island population ranks

 * I have retrieved the ranked populations at Island populations by rank.
 * I will begin the ranking by area if flagging enthusiasm permits. Ben MacDui (Talk) 10:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Now begun here, which should allow consistent use of area ranks. I will fill in any missing blanks as required.

The observant will note the page names. The current rate of activity, which is amazing, may not keep up, but if it does then some simple form of project co-ordination over an above this talk page may be useful. Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Grimsay
Apologies to Finavon - the number for area was incorrect in the List overleaf and copied into the infobox. I will check for any 'rank' issues that emerge in other boxes. Ben MacDui (Talk) 20:05, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Project progress
Of the 208 Larger & populated islands, 181 have any sort of page (many are stubs), of which 74 (with Ornsay) use the island infobox. Finavon 17:34, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Wow - 74. Someone has been adding them too quickly for me to catch up with. However, as I am in denial about OCD I am not going to look for the ones I missed. (Today). Tediously, my s/sheet has 207, not 208. This includes S Walls and the three inhabited tiddlers. Could you have a look at Islands by area and let me know at what point we go out of synch? As my standard browser can't toggle the tables I end up with two browsers and a s/sheet running, which doesn't contribute to either mental health or accuracy. Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:02, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That would be Inchcolm: pop 2; max height 102ft (ref http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/features/featurehistory12.html); unknown area (so not ranked) but looks to be 10-15 ha. [Use of template]. Finavon 20:16, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Rockall
I now believe that ROI accept UK sovereignty over Rockall as it falls within the Economic sea boundary of the UK - therefore the UK is entitled to claim the isle, and a 13 Nmile fishing right around it.

There is a body of editors very keen to ensure Rockall is not part of the UK.

LG —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.216.29.218 (talk • contribs).

"the legality of the claim is disputed by the Republic of Ireland, Denmark and Iceland and it is probably unenforceable in international law."

I would dispute this, not for any jingoistic reasons, but simply Britain's military might, especially naval, which dwarves anything the Icelanders, Danish or Irish have in that way. Also, the UK usually has US backing on certain matters. --MacRusgail 09:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

If you are saying that the claim might be enforceable militarily, I agree with you, but that's not the same thing. Its a complex matter regularly aired at Talk:Rockall and even Talk:Scotland. Incidentally, its not clear to me why Rocabarraigh is assumed to be a different 'phantom island' with a very similar name and not simply a legend about Rockall. Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Monach Bridge
The reference to 'walking to Baleshare' (see Tidal islands) is certainly verifiable, but I have to say I think it is classifiable as 'legend' rather than anything more plausible. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:26, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

a nice example of pseudo-exact nitpicking
I can't speak for the whole of Scotland in general or the Western Isles in particular. As a professional geographer and frequent traveller of both Orkney and Shetland I will refer to these island groups and the way they are presented on this page only.


 * classifying the Brough of Birsay as one of the Smaller offshore islands of Orkney is a joke
 * classifying the St Ninian's Isle as one of the Smaller offshore islands of Shetland is a better one (Note: normally all islands are more or less off the shore but there are only a few offshore islands like the St Kilda group, Sule Skerry & Sgeir, Rockall, Foula or Fair Isle ... ;-) )
 * then classifying (in one and the same article) the St Ninian's Isle, which is accessible all year round except for a few hours every third or fourth year as a Tidal island but not classifying the Brough of Birsay as such, although it is an example par excellence for a tidal island being accessible only a few hours per day, is nothing else but turning the generally accepted definition of a 'tidal island' upside down
 * refering to St Ninian's Isle as Shetland's only one Tidal island is only a proof for the fact that the authors are unfamiliar with local conditions and that they never have looked at a proper map. Search Ordnance Survey "Get a Map" for the grid references HU372785, HU448824, or HU493798 just to mention three examples out of more than a dozen for Shetland alone - it's all the same development of linking islands by an ayre/tombolo as discussed for St Ninian's Isle under Tidal islands (note: all such place names in Orkney and Shetland for linked islands without the term 'island' as a part of the place name are going back to the early 19th century OS mapping only. Due to this work eg. the Houss Islands of Shetland got there modern names as West Burra with Kettla Ness linked by an ayre and East Burra with Houss Ness linked to it by an ayre, too).
 * ... then adding an image with the caption The Earl's Palace, Birsay, Orkney suggesting within the context that this palace is on an island called Birsay again is a proof of pseudo-exact deskwork which was done without local knowledge. There is neither an island of such name nor is that palace on that island of the Brough of Birsay given in the list. This palace of the Stewart Earls is located in Birsay village on Orkney Mainland more than 1 km S to E (with the ruin barely visible) from the Brough of Birsay where there is a Jarl's palace dating back to the Viking period instead.
 * ... and btw: forget about the maps added for both Orkney and Shetland. Chuck da bruck ...
 * leaving out populated islands
 * creating new islands (eg. by not showing extisting ayres or the barriers in Orkney)
 * producing no more extisting outbound ferry services
 * producing wrong inter island ferry service links
 * creating none-existant inter island services
 * leaving out exsisting inter island services
 * showing neglectable farms as settlements
 * showing existing villages in wrong places
 * showing place names others than villages in totally wrong positions
 * &c &c &c
 * Now, let's have a look at other areas ... ;-) As a None-Scot I would like to suggest to leave it to the islanders to discuss and describe their own habitat instead of trying to invent the wheel again ... 91.64.3.152 12:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)