Talk:List of judoka

Comparison with JMJC "Judo Legends" list
Jason Morris Judo Center's "Judo Legends" page lists the following 23 Juodka. Only the 11 in bold are also on our list:
 * Neil Adams
 * Marc Alexandre
 * Noriko Anno
 * Ezio Gamba
 * Nicolas Gill
 * Kosei Inoue
 * Jeon Ki-Young
 * Toshihiko Koga
 * Waldemar Legień
 * Jason Morris
 * Yukimasa Nakamura
 * Jimmy Pedro
 * Udo Quellmalz
 * Amarilis Savón
 * Peter Seisenbacher
 * Kye Sun-Hui
 * Mike Swain
 * Ryoko Tamura
 * Gella Vandecaveye
 * Robert Van De Walle
 * Ulla Werbrouck
 * Yasuhiro Yamashita
 * Hidehiko Yoshida

--David Broadfoot (talk) 09:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Modern Champions?
What is the basis for inclusion in the "Modern Champions" section? People like David Douillet, Jeon Ki-Young, Ingrid Berghmans (to list a few) have achieved far more in terms of international competition compared to Tamerlan Tmenov or Gene Lebell, who are included on this list. Fox (talk) 00:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The article isn't meant to simply record who got the most international medals, and neither is that subsection (so please leave Gene LeBell there.) Contribution to the sport counts too. Please change the section heading if you can think of a better one ("Modern legends" might be better?), or split the list (but splitting into too many headings makes it hard to know where to include individual judoka.) Please add any people who you think should be added, and delete those who you think should be deleted. I already deleted a lot of names to prune the list. It's a work in progress. Rewrite the stated criteria too if you think you can improve it. Thanks for your input. --David Broadfoot (talk) 02:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, I won't edit this list without discussing changes first. Though the current list is a lot better than its prior version, I see some major problems that need to be worked out. Tell me what you think:
 * I can't find the stated criteria for inclusion. There should at least be a requirement that a judoka must have multiple gold medals in the highest level of competition (World Championship or Olympics) to be included as a modern champion (or "Modern legend" as you put it). I disagree with the first sentence in your response. There absolutely needs to be mention for judoka who have gained multiple international medals as they are ultimately the most famous and notable judoka whose names are recorded in history.
 * The inclusion criteria (as far as they go) are stated in a comment at the top of the article. They are mostly exclusion criteria. I suggest that we do not specify how many medals are required to be included or else it gets hard to quantify. In any case, we won't know until the list starts to get too big, and we have to raise the bar at that point. --David Broadfoot (talk) 01:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I would create a separate section for those who are known primarily for their contributions as instructors or authors (even if they did compete at some point during their careers). This would differentiate names like Gene Lebell or Yosh Uchida from competitors.
 * Perhaps "Modern legends" is appropriate for those two. However, the problem exists that someone might qualify for both modern legend and modern champion status. The way I've chosen the categories so far has pretty much avoided that type of problem (by both luck and design!) --David Broadfoot (talk) 01:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "Female judoka" should be renamed to "Notable female judoka" and "Modern champions" should become "Notable male judoka." Or, the two lists should be combined into a heading like "Notable judoka" or "Modern judoka." The current layout implies that female judoka are not modern champions/legends.
 * Agreed. Let's keep the females separate though because there are not many of them and the list serves as a useful resource for females looking for female "legends". Also, if there is gender imbalance, keeping them separate will alert us to that. --David Broadfoot (talk) 01:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Balance is the biggest problem. There are just far too many male Americans on the list. 0 French judoka and 0 South Korean judoka (two of the strongest judo nations in history) compared to 8 American judoka in "Modern champions" is absurd. It gives the false impression that the U.S. is strong in judo.
 * Probably because most of the editors are American. That will be remedied with proper pruning. --David Broadfoot (talk) 01:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I also don't understand many of the choices made in pruning the list. There are so many other Europeans that are more famous than Tamerlan Tmenov, and Karo Parisyan is an obscure MMA fighter who happened to be in the Olympic trials. Same goes for many of the Americans. If Mike Swain and Jim Bergman are to be included just for being the first Americans to win in international competition, there is no reason why the first Japanese, British, Brazilian, French, etc. judoka to ever win a title shouldn't also be included. The list shouldn't cater towards Americans.
 * I tried to be a bit conservative when deleting. I did it in several passes so that people could revert my edits if they disagreed. I started by pruning people who seemed to be there just because they got a medal in International Competition. I then made more passes, removing people who seemed to be there because they won a World Championship. I left in people who won say eight European Championships because that seemed significant to me. I removed most entries who were there mainly because they were the first in their country to have some significant achievement. I had to be a bit conservative due to lack of knowledge. I realised that I shouldn't rely on the person's Wikipedia entry as it might be deficient. I didn't delete Mike Swain I think because (a) he is on the JMJC Judo Legends page, and (b) by that time I had got the list down to what I thought was a manageable size. I fully expected more to be deleted as more were added though. As for Tmenov, as I said before, go ahead and delete. As for Parisyan, maybe a small section at the bottom for judoka who've taken judo into MMA is appropriate, or we can put them in the Celebrity judoka list instead? --David Broadfoot (talk) 01:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry to ramble, but the list has gotten so much better in the last couple months that I would hate to see it not go even further. I will begin editing based on the problems that I raised above if there are no objections. Fox (talk) 14:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds great - thanks for your input. Ingrid Berghmans and the others will be great additions to the list. How many entries do you think the article should have? I set a limit of 35 to 50 in the criteria, but my criteria have been changing as the list changes ;-) --David Broadfoot (talk) 01:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Name change
The name of this page needs to be changed as per the AfD discussion. How about one of the following: --David Broadfoot (talk) 05:15, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "List of notable judoka" or "Notable judoka"
 * "List of judo legends" or "Judo legends"
 * "List of legendary judoka" or "Legendary judoka"
 * Definitely "List of notable judoka." Fox (talk) 16:06, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Changes
I went ahead and made a ton of changes. "Legend" (legendary) is a peacock term, so I removed the word wherever it came up. I also created a separate category for judoka who do not have significant achievements in the world championships or Olympics, but are notable nonetheless. However, there are still a number of judoka who have won multiple gold medals and therefore qualify for inclusion (ex. Kazuhiro Ninomiya, Shinji Hosokawa, Toyokazu Nomura). I also changed Ancient judoka to Notable deceased judoka, since "ancient" doesn't sound proper to me. Fox (talk) 18:43, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all that. Here are my comments and my changes:
 * I changed some criteria: someone who won half a dozen European championships would in general be more significant than someone who won one world championship, so I tried to reflect that by adding a reference to the European & All-Japan Championships. (It all comes to a judgement call.)
 * I didn't like "deceased judoka" because that didn't reflect my intent of that section. If one of the "other" died tomorrow, I most probably wouldn't want to put them with Maeda, Kimura et al. Do I renamed that section to 'Pioneers'.
 * I changed section names to conform with WP:MOS re not repeating the (proposed new) article name and not repeating higher-level section names.
 * Jason Morris seems out of place with "Others" (esp. with the new relaxed medal criteria)... should he be moved up to the "competitors" list, or should he even be on the list?
 * There are now 43 on the list. Here are the ones you deleted:
 * Neil Adams (England, 1958–), World Champion, and five-time European Champion. He was the first British male ever to win a world title, and the first British male ever to simultaneously hold a world title and a European title.
 * Jim Bregman (USA, 1941–), first American to win a medal in Olympic judo. Former president of the United States Judo Association.
 * George Harris (USA), member of the first US Olympic judo team, a two-time Pan American champion, and four-time US National Champion. He starred in a judo-themed movie, had a long involvement with military judo in the US, and later served as president of the United States Judo Association.
 * Karo Parisyan (Armenia & USA, 1982–), considered by many to be the first UFC fighter to have successfully adapted judo to "no-gi" rules
 * Jimmy Pedro (USA, 1970–), 29 gold medals in international competition
 * Tamerlan Tmenov (Russia, 1977–), six-time European Champion
 * comments on deletions: I think that Adams has to be reinstated. He is definitely a "legend", and he has the medal count too (heck... even his wife and his brother are champions!) He was awarded an MBE, and he has written many judo books. I think that Parisyan should be reinstated under 'other', simply for adapting judo to the no-gi environment... that is a real developmental achievement, so he has developed the art. Tmenov with six European championships maybe should be reconsidered too given my comments about that championship.
 * Lastly, I'd like to make the 'competitors' category last on the page somehow. Basically, I'd like to treat the 'others' as something like a modern version of the 'pioneers' section, and maybe include suitable people on that list even if they won a lot of international medals.
 * Thanks. --David Broadfoot (talk) 08:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Pioneers is a much better name for the section. I agree that the IJF Hall of Fame section should be merged with Pioneers, though I'm not sure where Geesink should be placed, given that he qualifies for both the competitors section and other notables section. I still think Parisyan and Tmenov should be left off the list entirely. If winning a half dozen European championships is about equivalent to winning a single world championship/Olympic gold medal as you said (which I don't necessarily agree with) then Tmenov still doesn't qualify because all of the names on the list have won at least two gold medals. I would leave Parsiyan off unless he becomes an MMA champion. The claim about his adapting judo to UFC rules isn't sourced, and the list is first and foremost about people who are known primarily for their achievements in judo. Parisyan isn't notable as a judoka (no notable achievements in judo), though he may be notable as an MMA fighter. Adams can be re-included if you feel strongly about it. Fox (talk) 18:48, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The IJF Hall of Fame section
The IJF HoF seems like an irrelevance now. Perhaps we should put Kano with 'Pioneers' (or give him his own section of 'Founder'), and put the other two with 'Other'. I like our list a lot better than the IJF's and Jason's. --David Broadfoot (talk) 09:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

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