Talk:List of last stands

Battle of Mirbat needs to be added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:BE1:5F90:D00:7F75:ECAE:C8C1 (talk) 04:38, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Rewrite
The whole article needs a rewrite. Terrible spelling and grammar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.76.81 (talk) 23:08, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Battle of Britain as a psychological if not plausible physical last stand
There is disagreement on how pivotal the Battle of Britain to the defense of Britain. Numerous sources claim had the RAF failed in its defense Nazi Germany would have initiated an invasion (even if Hitler was not all that thrilled about it and Germany had almost no chance). Others have said the air battle made no difference because Germany was unable to mount a successful invasion.

Encompassing it all was the psychological importance that Churchill put on the air battle (because the army was greatly weakened and the large U-boat threat to the navy) and that rallying effect the attacks had to galvanize the populace against the German attackers, something that countless books discuss.

The best argument the BoB can be considered a "last stand" is Churchill's famous speech "the Few" that expressed enormous gratitude to the the few airmen who fought off an overwhelming enemy force, the very definition of what a last stand is. --Flightsoffancy (talk) 15:25, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * This would create a complete mockery of the article. If conquering a country is that countries last stand then every conquest of a country is a last stand. This is exactly the kind of thinking that has ruined this list:P 46.162.86.84 (talk) 14:34, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Downplaying Battle of Tali-Ihantala?
The page claimed that the 50,000 Finnish conscripts were "highly trained" and goodly equipped while claiming that the 150,000 Soviet soldiers were equipped poorly and armed badly. The claim is ridiculous since Soviets had already adopted better tactics by then, their artillery was the largest in the world and the equipment used by the Soviet soldiers was overally good and they had it plenty plus they had ridiculously high amount of tanks and other armoured vehicles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.106.189.159 (talk) 02:28, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

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Dates
AD or CE; pick one, and be concistent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.103.205.61 (talk) 13:02, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Siege of Masada and the definition of a last stand
In the Siege of Masada the defenders committed suicide. This is similar to the siege of Eion, but the latter was not considered a last stand and was removed from the list. --Z 15:28, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Nope, it is not similar. At Masada, almost all defenders died/killed themselves (making it a last stand). At Eion, only the governor and his family committed suicide, while the rest of the population surrendered and was enslaved (thus no last stand). Applodion (talk) 16:45, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Agincourt
The Battle of Agincourt was not a last stand. Henry V's army was outnumbered, but defeat did not seem certain. Putting it in the same category as Rorke's Drift and Thermopylae seems inappropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.58.99.201 (talk) 02:26, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Though you are correct that the defeat was not inevitable, Henry's situation was grim - he was cornered, his path of retreat was blocked, and he had few supplies left. The stand at Agincourt was basically a last ditch effort. In this regard, it was a last stand (before probable surrender or death); of course it is hard to compare it to other battles in this list, but it has to be rembered that few last stands are comparable, as they often differed widely in many ways (of example, some fought in hopes of victory, others to gain an "honorable" death; some refused surrender, others were not able to surrender; some battles included very small forces, others involved hundreds of thousands). Regardless, perhaps it would be better to remove the battle from the list as you suggested, but I feel not proficient enough in Medieval history to judge whether or not Agincourt can be regarded as last stand. Applodion (talk) 12:19, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I would suggest removing the Battle of Agincourt and also the Battle of Bannockburn from the list of last stands. Neither battle was intended to be fought to the bitter end, and would probably have resulted in a surrender if the battles had gone the other way. In Shakespeare's play, Henry V talks about fighting until his own death, but there is no indication of the English forces as a whole fighting until everyone was dead. So not a last stand.Tennisedu (talk) 23:51, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Roman Filipov
Roman Filipov would be a suitable addition to the section "Last stands with few defenders". His last stand appears to be the only one with video confirmation--filmed by the enemy to boot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPUFfgv8nm0

169.237.31.222 (talk) 23:25, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Considering retreat and surrender were both impossible and he was attacked by a larger force, under the pages own definition I would state that it is an appropriate decision to include this information. AnyOwl (talk) 21:55, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

There's no evidence of him fighting anyone. He committed suicide to avoid capture, but thousands have done that throughout history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.32.229.126 (talk) 16:27, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Even the local rebels confirm that he died after a gunfight. Applodion (talk) 10:07, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Battle of Maiwand, appropriate to add?
The British force was outnumbered 10 to 1 by a force that was equally equipped in terms of quality of infantry arms or better equipped in terms of artillery arms. However, it could be stated that this was not a clear last stand or lost battle until the collapse of the line and the last stand of the "last eleven", so is this single action covering the retreat of other units within a battle enough to qualify it for the list? AnyOwl (talk) 21:47, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

you forgot to rite by who

At what point is it considered "few defenders"?
Few is a very loosely defined term, it could be 2, 30, even 100 if the odds are so bad. Could we come up with a more specific term in order to better subdivide the list? AnyOwl (talk) 20:21, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I fully agree with the above comment by . That section title is far too subjective.&thinsp;&mdash; Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)&thinsp; 03:49, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Agree. But apparently, nothing has been done about this in two years. And why exactly do the 39 paratroopers in the Battle for Hill 3234 count as "few defenders," while the lone tank in the Battle of Raseiniai does not? Herr Hartmann (talk) 16:15, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Pavlov's House?
Just as an example. Do last stands within larger battles count? I feel Pavlov's House could be classified as a Last Stand of sorts, being a single apartment building manned by only a few dozen against over 10,000 German/Nazi soldiers, but it was part of a much larger battle that was far from a last stand. Would it count, or no? LydiaTheHusky (talk) 14:24, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think it would. After all, this article also lists individual last stands which were part of larger battles. Applodion (talk) 14:33, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Adding in WW2 Battle of Pasir Panjang in the last stand?
I'm not sure how to add into wikipedia but I feel that this is an appropriate last stand to add https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pasir_Panjang — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.87.39.40 (talk) 10:30, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

The Alamo
The Battle of the Alamo is not listed in this article, even though a painting depicting the battle is used for the main "last stand" article. Is there a reason for this? RobotGoggles (talk) 17:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Disaster of a list
Nothing is sourced, nothing, not a single entry, not the definition (which seems to have an unhealthy amount of WP:OR). Why, for example, is the Battle of Kosovo here? Clarityfiend (talk) 12:28, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Orphaned references in List of last stands
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of last stands's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "cnn": From Taliban:  From Syrian opposition:  From Belgium:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 12:18, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Attack on Snake Island
At the present moment, the Attack on Snake Island should be removed from this list for the following reasons:
 * It has surfaced that none of the Ukrainian State Border guards were killed in the confrontation. These discrepancies in information show that recent military actions should not be added into the list until such time as adequate information can be gathered.
 * The fact that this is neither a battle nor a siege suggests that the Ukrainian State Border guards did not put up a fight. Looking at the article itself, there is no mention of defensive action taking place.
 * The entire incident revolves around the Ukrainian State Border guards yelling profanity over the radio, this itself does not constitute a sort of defense.
 * The introduction to this article states that a last stand is defined as a military situation resulting in the defending force taking heavy casualties and that surrender is impossible or fighting is essential to the success of the cause. This attack does not meet this criteria. ElderZamzam (talk) 02:44, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

I fully agree with all points. Indeed, the whole purpose of my visiting this Talk page was to make the exact same statement. Nice to see I'm not alone with my opinion. Herr Hartmann (talk) 15:53, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Format of this list
I know that many other such lists look good as a table. This list however doesn't look good at all. There some entries that end up being 30 lines long with only 16 characters in each line. Aisteco (talk) 23:20, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Agree. The table format works well for names and numbers, but not at all for extended texts. Herr Hartmann (talk) 16:24, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Siege of mariupol?
Who else agrees it should have it's place within the article?91.90.11.156 (talk) 16:39, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
 * The battle has not even ended. By definition, a last stand has to be the last act in a clash. Unless you can provide proof that a group of soldiers already chose to fight to the death at some location in Mariupol - for example at an encircled house - the siege cannot yet be classified as "last stand". To my knowledge, nothing of the sort has occurred up until today. Applodion (talk) 16:45, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Non-last stands added to page
Please provide sources which call the battles you added to the page "last stands". Unless you provide a reliable source, I will keep removing them. At Tsingtao, the defenders surrendered without making a last stand. Most of the defenders survived. At Marathon, the Athenians attacked a Persian landing force; neither side made a last stand. Applodion (talk) 16:55, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
 * (Personal attacks by removed) ~ ToBeFree (talk) 23:13, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
 * You know, we could have a civilized discussion about this issue. Obviously you feel strongly about the topic. Wikipedia is based on verifiability and citing sources. I have read books on the Siege of Tsingtao and the Battle of Marathon, and as far as I remembered, none of these books called these clashes "last stands". In addition, as I pointed out above, they do not really fit the usual definition of a "last stand". However, if you provide sources, I would not oppose their addition to the page, but without references, we can't just leave them there. Applodion (talk) 20:02, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
 * " A last stand is a last-resort tactic that is used if retreat or surrender is impossible or fighting is essential to the success of the cause."
 * Waldeck's forces at the siege of Tsingtao had the capability to surrender and did surrender
 * At Marathon, the Persians were able to retreat after the battle concluded (from their ships) Yokohama1989 (talk) 23:30, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Honno-ji?
Could the Honno-ji incident constitute a last stand? Oda Nobunaga's retainers fought to the death and Mori Ranmaru set the temple on fire. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yokohama1989 (talk • contribs) 15:26, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Siege of Mariupol
The siege of Mariupol would be considered a last stand, right? They're still holding out at the Azovstal plant. Dawsongfg (talk) 04:08, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
 * It is only a last stand if they make a last stand. Unless the contingent holding the steel plant actually die (or academic sources describe it as last stand), this cannot be regarded as a last stand. Applodion (talk) 09:05, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I fully expect Mariupol to end up on this list eventually. But right now it is way too early to add it. There is simply nothing relevant to report yet. Herr Hartmann (talk) 15:58, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I think Mariupol now qualifies, since the remaining defenders of Azovstal surrendered and were placed into captivity. What we need are sources for casualties on both sides, I suspect the result is very asymmetric TAPwiki (talk) 19:13, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Remove snake island
The Ukrainians didn’t fight They surrendered without a fight 2600:1014:B02C:E5F2:20FB:A7DF:645C:FEFC (talk) 14:14, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Add the Battle of Yamen
The Battle of Yamen is widely considered to be the last stand of the Song dynasty against the invading Mongols. Mucube (talk) 19:29, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Battle of Injin River in Korean War
Lt. Col. Carne and most of the Glosters surrendered, therefore this should not be regarded as a last stand. Tennisedu (talk) 16:09, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Removed from the list. Applodion (talk) 18:26, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Battle of Singapore
The Battle of Singapore should not be in this article. Although the British forces were ordered to make a last stand, the battle ended with 80,000 of the 85,000 defenders and their commander surrendering without a fight. If there is no objection, I will remove this section. Tennisedu (talk) 19:22, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Battle of Hel 1939
Again, the defenders and their commanders surrendered in good order after the siege. This is not a last stand. I will remove if there is no objection. Tennisedu (talk) 19:37, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Battle of Ramu
This battle was not a last stand, as the defending forces successfully retreated from the battle ground. If there is no objection, I will remove this battle. Tennisedu (talk) 01:43, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Battle of Hill 488
This battle was not a last stand because the defending forces successfully withdrew from the battlefield with only small casualties. I will remove if there is no objection. Tennisedu (talk) 01:59, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

English ship Revenge?
Not sure it fits here, but it fought against the Armada.

2600:1700:8786:DA0:520:5B39:FFD2:B16 (talk) 03:16, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

A lot of these aren't last stands people.
Not even against the very brief and general descritpion found herein that describes it as a smaller force holding a position inflicting usually heavy casualties on the enemy.

This implies two things, that they choose to hold that position and that it is an actual positional battle. The Battle for Iwo Jima or any such siege is not really holding a position to delay an enemy force, to inflict casualties or even to die with honor. It's a garrison that holds an island, its subjected to a siege and is destroyed

If every siege was a last stand then this article would be endless. Same goes for the castle battle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Castle_Itter It's even worse here. They are fighting not as a last stand but knowingly fending off the enemy until a bigger force relieves them.

The Warsaw Uprising is absolutely not a last stand The latter even expected relief from the Soviets and was a part of a national uprising, the opposite of a last stand. The effort was to expel the enemy and free the city.

Please review these things. The list is becoming completely bloated. 46.162.86.84 (talk) 13:34, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Saitō Musashibō Benkei
There's an article about him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benkei 62.47.224.111 (talk) 17:45, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Russian Empire flag in the attack of the dead men is wrong, that flag was out of use by 1896, in ww1 russia was using the white, blue and red flags
Should it be changed? 2A0A:EF40:812:8A01:21B0:B3BB:7843:1500 (talk) 21:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)