Talk:List of law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty in the United States/Archive 1

Updates
I completed the addition of date of death, and additionally added the state, city, or agency the person was employed by. List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States was linked to in the news today, so I realized this list may have more traffic than expected, so i wanted to make it look better. it would make a great table, but i have no skill at tables.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 14:51, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Article creator note
I created this to have a parallel article to this one, List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, as all we had were the category and 3 lists by department. this could easily be expanded to be as detailed as its parallel article, but for now, we have links both ways. seems fair and npov to do this. I havent even cross checked this category, Category:Murdered American police officers, in case some of them also belong here.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 09:09, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for creating the article. Do you know how many city-based articles there are like this one? I saw the links to several of them at the bottom. I wonder if there is a better way to organize all of these lists, especially since some of the titles aren't even consistent. Maybe this needs to be a main list with the city-based articles splitting off, like the List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States now has for each year. But then where does that leave all of the smaller cities? Maybe this list could be organized by state, and then for the major cities there could just be a link to the individual article for that city. Any thoughts or ideas? Michellecornelison (talk) 14:12, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * sorry for the delay, i assume real life got in the way. First step, all such lists need to be in this lists category tree, so finding them is step one. after that, i suppose any sort of list articles by state or even city is fine, as long as there are enough articles to justify it. Im not a fan of lists where most items are not articles. seems a notable list topic should be made up mostly of articles, not just names with a couple of references.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 15:37, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

9/11
9/11 entries should not be included here. 9/11 has its own article and related articles. Including 9/11 entries would overwhelm the page. Agree or disagree?? Quis separabit? 22:55, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
 * other articles which list subsets of this list should be linked to, and the names not added here. this helps to avoid article drift, where two essentially identical article sections begin to vary. content should not be duplicated unless somehow necessary. How prominently one displays the sublists can be debated. I like the list being at the top of this one, but the "see also" section is also a fine place. We could one day have this broken down by state, where some states may eventually have their own lists (didnt check the see also, we may have some already). i changed the wording for the 9 11 alert, as we dont address editors directly in articles. thats like breaking the 4th wall in theatre. readers are not assumed to be editors.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 17:47, 1 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Quis separabit?  17:51, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Length
This list is long enough to break up by either alphabet, geography, or date. my preference is alphabetical, but as it grows, we should also consider dividing by state, as eventually some states will have their own lists, which can simply be linked to from here and not duplicate the effort.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 15:59, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Comprehensiveness
I noticed how detailed the list of killings by law enforcement is compared to this list of officers killed in the line of duty, and sought to make this more comprehensive. So I went to ODMP.org, scraped their data, spent two hours formatting it, then an hour programming something to format it for Wikipedia. However, as I went to insert the tables, I saw that there's a comment stating that the officers added must be "notable", whereas there is no such rule for the list of those killed by officers (whether the person is killed by an officer wrongfully or not--I'd say the killing of an officer is almost always wrongful, and therefore "notable"). Due to recent events in Ferguson, and the likely frequent accessing of both pages, I'm going to add the data I formatted tonight, and look into splitting it into multiple pages tomorrow. If there's an issue with their "notability" we can rename the article to "List of notable American police officers killed in the line of duty".

I'll also look for errors in the formatted table tomorrow, but so far I haven't noticed any inconsistencies in the data.

Zerim (talk) 08:08, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Well done
Well done. I changed the format to mm/dd/yyyy but otherwise the only issue remaining is that: This list does not include deaths due to the 9/11 attacks; those deaths are listed at Emergency workers killed in the September 11 attacks, where the following should be moved. But I didn't want to be too BOLD, without getting some consensus. Quis separabit? 15:01, 26 November 2014 (UTC)


 * 2013-5-1	Detective Charles John Wassil, Jr. Peekskill Police Department, NY	 9/11 related illness


 * 2012-3-1   	Police Officer Denis McLarney	New York City Police Department, NY	 9/11 related illness
 * 2012-6-23	Lieutenant Christopher M. Pupo 	New York City Police Department, NY	 9/11 related illness
 * 2012-7-11	Sergeant Garrett Danza  	New York City Police Department, NY 	 9/11 related illness


 * 2011-6-9	Police Officer Martin Tom	New York City Police Department, NY	 9/11 related illness
 * 2011-6-26  	Captain Barry Galfano   	New York City Police Department, NY	 9/11 related illness
 * 2011-7-4	Detective Edwin Ortiz  	New York City Police Department, NY	 9/11 related illness
 * 2011-8-14	Police Officer Charles D. Cole, Jr. Nassau County Police Department, NY	 9/11 related illness
 * 2011-12-23	Detective Alick W. Herrmann 	New York City Police Department, NY	 9/11 related illness

That list seems to only cover immediate deaths
Thanks for asking first, but that list seems to only count the deaths that occurred on the day of the attacks, and not those who died as a result afterwards. I would agree that a list should be made of those individuals if one does not exist, but I don't have that data on hand (I'd look into it, but I'm a little busy with Thanksgiving--sorry ;).

A section could be added to the list you linked, in which case I can make my script separate any entries containing "9/11" for you. Let me know.

Also, I haven't done dynamic lists before (or much Wiki page formatting at all), so if (by the time someone reads this) the page hasn't been split into a dynamic list of one page per year, I might need some help. Over the next hour or so I'll add records from 2010 and try to split the page properly. I'll also make the reference URLs point to Archive.org records of the pages, and correct the Month/Date/Year thing.

Thanks!

Zerim (talk) 03:09, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Here's a list of the (62) 9/11 illness deaths listed on ODMP.org from between 2001 and 2014:

9/11 Related Illnesses
Zerim (talk) 05:00, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Formatting
Hi Zerim. Something you had done (i think) made some of the formatting of the headings/headlines go very strange. I think i have corrected them appropriately, but you may want to check and be sure i have left it in a good state. As i see you're pretty new, in terms of edits at least, you may not have realised that heading start at the two equals sign level and increase by one sign each level going down. Anyway, i hope i've not messed it up. Cheers, LindsayHello 11:25, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks!
That was me, not my script; I was confused about how they work. Thanks! :)

Zerim (talk) 18:41, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

"Before 2010" table format
Is there a reason the Before 2010 table should be in a completely different format and sequence from the other tables? I'm willing to convert it, but it's a ton of work and I wanted to get comments first. What I have in mind is an exact match as to column headings and row sequence (ascending date sequence). It looks like the table was initially in ascending surname sequence but some new entries at the beginning and end have been added out of that sequence. ― Mandruss  &#9742;  06:59, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

To integrate: South Florida List
I've added a new named reference "SouthFL2011List", and have started adding people from that list into this article. However, I didn't get down past Nov. 28, 2007, and have to stop for now. If anybody else wants to go through and add those in, it'd make the article more comprehensive. I recommend adding each new one at the top of the list, to produce a section that is at least date-sorted.

Also, that pre-2010 section needs a lot of cleanup work such as date formatting and sorting. I've given it a start by table formatting, but it still has a bunch of work left to go.

--ProtectorServant (talk) 15:38, 25 May 2015 (UTC)


 * My two cents are that every entry should cite the ODMP page if one exists, see above section. And, if it's cited, no other cites are really needed. I'm gradually making that so, until someone convinces me that's a bad idea (or there is a consensus against it, obviously). So, if you're still working on this, we may be working against each other. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  10:56, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Definition of 'End of Watch'
What is the definition of "End of Watch"? Is it the date of death, or the date that the incident occurred that led to the death? (These are not always synonymous.) Thanks KConWiki (talk) 00:40, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I would interpret that as the date when they stopped performing their police duties for the last time. This would typically be the date of the incident leading to death, even if they were alive in the hospital (for example) for some days after. This also parallels the date criteria at List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States. However, I think it's a somewhat odd term and would prefer to hear from someone who thinks it's a good one to use and maybe has a better understanding of its meaning and origin. --ProtectorServant (talk) 15:31, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I added a little footnote about how it's generally accepted as the date an officer died. I don't see a note on ODMP.org on their definition, but I'm sure it's the same.

Zerim (talk) 18:41, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I've tried to clarify that definition in this edit. I think if someone was fatally injured on duty on the 3rd but stayed alive in a coma until the 7th, the 3rd would be a better fit for the term "End of Watch." --ProtectorServant (talk) 15:52, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

ODMP pages sometimes list an incident date, I assume only when that differs from the date of death; for example, Rick Silva shows an incident date but Sean Bolton does not. But ODMP pages always show the date of death, which they prominently call "End of Watch". If we use ODMP as our primary source, it will be problematic to define EOW differently than they do. That will be an ongoing cause of confusion for both editors and readers. We should either change our column headings to "Incident date" or use the date of death, and I'm for the latter. What say you? By the way, our dab page Eow defines End of Watch as date of death. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  02:14, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The best source appears to be the Officer Down Memorial Page (ODMP) website, and I think they should be our citation wherever possible. They provide a consistent format for readers and always give a photo and a well-written and concise summary of the incident. And, their pages always archive well at archive.org (many other types of sources do not archive well if at all). Assuming ODMP won't necessarily be around forever, archive considerations are important.
 * My only question would be where to get the data about deaths if there was a difference with ODMP, which doesn't seem to be the case. If ODMP.org defines EoW as date of death, listing the incident date separately as you've pointed out, I agree with changing the column header to "date of death".
 * My biggest concerns at this point involve archival via archive.org because, as you've pointed out, ODMP.org might not exist forever. I wasn't aware of using archiveurl as a best practice, and it looks like adding links using the 'https://web.archive.org/web/*/' poses some problems about archival date (which makes sense). At some point I do plan on possibly scripting something to utilize archive.org's API and have the script open up any URLs that don't have an existing snapshot so that I can submit them, and then using Excel/Python/Regex trickery to fit it all together properly. However, I only get enough time for this every few months, so feel free to do what you feel is best in the mean time (or if I disappear). Thanks. -Zerim (talk) 20:35, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Article size
Re: my revert

My edit summary was incorrect due to brain fart. I forgot that the Prosesize script can't count data in tables or lists, so the numbers I was looking at were grossly understated and Prosesize is useless for evaluating this article's size.

Still, I don't agree that splitting would serve readers at this point. If it were split by years, it would be no better than what we have now when it comes to navigation. Clicking a lick to a section is no harder than clicking a link to another page. I think the only good reason for a split would be when the thing gets so big that a significant number of readers are seeing unacceptable download times. And I think we're far from that, although someone using mobile might tell me something I don't know. One little thing in favor of keeping it together is that various types of searches are easier if it's all on one page. ― Mandruss  &#9742;  09:22, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You're correct on those points, though there is definitely a point at which even text gets unwieldy. A good compromise would be to separate the list by decade once we pass 2020, or if someone were to add deaths from before 2010. Also, if possible, a list that contains the year's list collapsed by default (as major sections are by default on mobile) could make it easier to scroll. However, I don't know how to do that. Thanks. -Zerim (talk) 20:46, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

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Heart attack
I really don't see how heart attacks fits in this article. It's certainly NOT any form of murder --213.127.198.146 (talk) 12:48, 23 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The title of the page is "killed" in the line of duty, and heart attacks "kill" by most definitions; "murder" is legally determined in court, and I would rather this try to stay unbiased. In addition, some of the heart attacks are as a result of the activities performed while performing policing duties, e.g., chasing/subduing suspects: I saw that one had a heart attack and died after getting in a physical fight.

Zerim (talk) 18:41, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * It's definitely misleading to call these articles "killed in the line of duty". They include many accidents and natural causes, and dictionaries aside, that's not what "killed in the line of duty" invokes among the general American population. Even "in the line of" instead of "on" makes one think crime, I think. The other side of the line.
 * I'm down for a complete system overhaul, but I'd rather someone else do most of the work. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:32, 26 April 2016 (UTC)


 * If one can establish a reasonable causal relationship between what s/he was doing and the death, it belongs here; otherwise, not. If s/he had a heart attack sitting at a desk filling out a report, the same heart attack probably would have occurred sitting on the couch watching TV, and it's not "in the line of duty". While chasing a suspect, different matter entirely. It ain't rocket science. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  06:37, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Having a report on a desk by a certain weekday is stressful shit, too, and part of the job. Rocket science isn't that complicated next to human physiology, and both fields needlessly complicate a simple matter of common English usage. Heart attack don't "kill" in the line of train duty, football duty or elephant duty. Holding police to another standard is weird. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:05, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
 * If a cop arrests (oops) during a chase, it might be said that the suspect (probably) killed him or her by running from him or her. I'm not sure I'd say that, but it's not completely unreasonable either. Anyway, unless we want to consider specific cases, perhaps we should let this 10-month-old thread go back to sleep. The OP is probably long gone. But you won't get a fight from me if you want to boldly remove some heart attacks (I'm more DGAF than I used to be, I find it's far better for my emotional well-being). &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  07:50, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't want to remove heart attacks, I just want these renamed so including them doesn't seem weird. Aside from engineers and elephants, police don't speak like that, either. I've brought it up at the Law Enforcement Wikiproject. This thread can get back to bed. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:56, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20441-officer-jeffrey-alan-kocab
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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/21241-lieutenant-jacqueline-mccarthy
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20445-sergeant-orville-royal-smith-jr
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20446-police-officer-thor-odin-soderberg
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20508-officer-charles-floyd-collins-ii
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20461-police-officer-michael-ray-bailey-sr
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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20473-deputy-sheriff-shawnelle-hess
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20477-deputy-sheriff-samuel-adam-smith
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20482-deputy-sheriff-jon-michael-willis
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20483-inspector-timothy-charles-barnes
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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20487-patrolman-glen-victor-agee
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20489-deputy-sheriff-christopher-l-dewey
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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/21732-chief-of-police-robert-lynn-smith
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20506-police-officer-leonard-allen-reed
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20509-deputy-sheriff-brian-bruce-harris
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20510-chief-of-police-paul-jeffrey-fricke
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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20513-sergeant-anthony-michael-wallace
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20517-trooper-first-class-kenneth-ray-hall
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20518-border-patrol-agent-michael-vincent-gallagher
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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20526-officer-john-richard-zykas
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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20529-trooper-mark-david-barrett
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20530-officer-dan-d-de-kraai
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20533-corporal-david-ralph-slaton
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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20564-correctional-officer-tracy-e-cooper
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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20539-police-officer-william-edward-will-phillips-iii
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/21830-juvenile-security-officer-donna-jean-jeannie-tappan
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20545-police-officer-merrill-bruguier
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20546-patrolman-karl-raymond-mcdonough
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20547-petty-officer-shaun-michael-lin
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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20555-police-officer-john-abraham-jr
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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20559-lieutenant-jose-a-cordova-montaez
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20560-police-officer-christopher-alan-wilson
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20561-police-officer-sergio-arturo-antillon
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20562-deputy-sheriff-dean-francis-miera
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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20566-wildlife-conservation-officer-david-lynn-grove
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/21244-police-officer-david-mahmoud
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20567-chief-deputy-kevin-kell-roberts
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20568-correctional-officer-gary-martin-chapin
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20569-trooper-jonathan-thomas-mcdonald
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20570-senior-corrections-officer-john-h-packy-paskewicz
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/21245-police-officer-robert-m-ehmer
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20571-deputy-sheriff-samuel-kent-brownlee
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20572-police-officer-patrick-sirois
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20573-police-officer-michael-ronald-flisk
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/21428-deputy-first-class-teresa-lynn-testerman
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20576-trooper-david-james-delaittre
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20577-deputy-sheriff-dewayne-arlyn-crenshaw
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/21246-detective-kevin-a-czartoryski
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20587-deputy-first-class-brandon-lee-coates
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20676-deputy-sheriff-rayford-alexander-alex-roberts
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20594-sergeant-wesley-richard-whitmore-jr
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20596-border-patrol-agent-brian-a-terry
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/21352-corporal-william-michael-mudd
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/21733-police-officer-james-dutch-lister
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20617-police-officer-andrew-jordan-rameas
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20624-lieutenant-thomas-clifford-cliff-rouse
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20627-deputy-sheriff-michael-ray-schaefer
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20626-police-officer-john-b-maguire
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20632-corporal-chadwick-thomas-lecroy
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/20633-police-officer-jillian-michelle-smith
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/22283-agent-edwin-o-roman-acevedo
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/22284-police-officer-ernest-montoya
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/22290-deputy-sheriff-grant-william-whitaker
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/22306-police-officer-richard-anthony-champion
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/22308-deputy-sheriff-john-robert-street
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/22311-police-officer-charles-kondek
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22312-patrolman-first-class-jamel-clagett
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22313-police-officer-tyler-jacob-stewart
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22315-special-police-officer-stephen-petruzzello
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22316-bridge-and-tunnel-officer-thomas-choi
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22317-police-officer-james-e-foster-jr
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22318-harbor-patrol-assistant-timothy-mitchell
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22323-sergeant-sean-renfro
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22335-police-officer-craig-chandler
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22339-assistant-chief-carl-borderlon
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22336-corrections-officer-v-christopher-davis
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22337-corrections-officer-v-eligio-garcia
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22353-motor-officer-michael-kern
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22351-detective-john-scott-stevens
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22352-director-of-investigations-john-ballard-gorman
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22354-sergeant-charles-kerry-mitchum
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22355-patrolman-roger-odell
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22406-deputy-sheriff-rodney-condall
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22359-detective-michael-starrett
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22360-trooper-nicholas-dees
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22377-police-officer-iii-siegfred-d-r-dove-mortera
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22416-captain-neville-stanley-kealii-colburn
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22400-detective-terence-avery-green
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22401-police-officer-robert-wilson-iii
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22405-lieutenant-c-scott-travis
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22404-police-officer-brennan-rabain
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22407-deputy-us-marshal-josie-wells
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22411-deputy-sheriff-johnny-gatson
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22409-police-officer-burke-rhoads
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22419-patrolman-george-s-nissen
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22412-trooper-donald-r-fredenburg-jr
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22413-police-officer-darryl-wallace
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22415-lieutenant-richard-woods
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22417-patrolman-adrian-arellano
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22418-police-officer-alex-yazzie
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22420-police-officer-michael-johnson
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22421-trooper-trevor-casper
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22455-police-officer-david-lee-colley
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22457-police-officer-jared-forsyth
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22458-police-officer-juandre-gilliam
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22459-corporal-scott-r-thompson
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22460-police-officer-michael-villarreal
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22464-deputy-sheriff-gil-datan
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22468-detective-brian-moore
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22469-lieutenant-eric-a-eslary
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22470-sergeant-greg-moore
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22471-detective-paul-j-koropal
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22472-police-officer-liquori-tate
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22473-police-officer-benjamin-deen
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22487-reserve-deputy-sonny-smith
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22488-police-officer-richard-martin
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22489-detective-kerrie-orozco
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22493-inspector-robert-james-bowling
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22517-police-officer-daryle-holloway
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22518-trooper-eric-k-chrisman
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22519-sergeant-christopher-kelley
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22521-sergeant-korby-kennedy
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22522-police-officer-david-joseph-nelson
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22534-correctional-officer-gregory-dale-mitchell
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22535-corrections-officer-timothy-davison
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22538-police-officer-vernell-brown-jr
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22555-deputy-sheriff-delton-daniels
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22564-police-officer-thomas-joseph-lavalley
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22572-detective-brent-l-hanger
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22569-first-lieutenant-arthur-a-green-iii
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22566-deputy-sheriff-craig-stephen-whisenand
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22650-sergeant-joseph-j-abdella
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22571-deputy-sheriff-carl-howell
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22573-detention-officer-tronoski-jones
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22575-sergeant-peggy-vassallo
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22578-trooper-chad-h-wolf
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22577-trooper-james-matthew-bava
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22608-sergeant-miguel-perez-rios
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22596-lieutenant-roy-mclaughlin
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22592-deputy-chief-john-p-mckee
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22587-trooper-joseph-cameron-ponder
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22593-deputy-sheriff-steven-brett-hawkins
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22588-deputy-sheriff-dwight-darwin-maness
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22594-deputy-sheriff-richard-allen-hall
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22595-sergeant-eric-meier
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22597-trooper-kyle-d-young
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22598-police-officer-kevin-jermaine-toatley
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22599-trooper-nathan-michael-william-smith
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22604-deputy-sheriff-bill-myers
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22606-deputy-sheriff-rosemary-vela
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22607-police-officer-gregory-thomas-alia
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22618-police-officer-anthony-lossiah
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22625-investigator-steven-martin-sandberg
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22627-detective-randolph-a-holder
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22642-park-ranger-james-marvin-wallen-jr
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22639-deputy-constable-jeffrey-radford
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22640-police-officer-daniel-scott-webster
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22641-sergeant-william-karl-keesee
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22652-police-officer-bryce-edward-hanes
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22653-police-officer-daniel-neil-ellis
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22654-police-officer-stacy-lynn-case
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22657-chief-of-police-darrell-lemond-allen
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22662-trooper-jaimie-lynn-jursevics
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22666-police-officer-ricardo-galvez
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22665-corporal-william-matthew-solomon
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22667-special-investigator-diane-digiacomo
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22669-police-officer-ryan-p-copeland
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22670-police-officer-garrett-preston-russell-swasey
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22671-police-officer-lloyd-e-reed-jr
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22683-police-officer-noah-leotta
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22688-police-officer-jesse-arthaniel-tarplin
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22699-trooper-eli-m-mccarson
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22716-special-agent-adrianna-m-vorderbruggen
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22717-special-agent-michael-a-cinco
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22718-special-agent-peter-w-taub
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22719-special-agent-chester-j-mcbride
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22725-special-agent-joseph-g-lemm
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22726-special-agent-louis-m-bonocasa
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22720-commander-frank-romn-rodrguez
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22721-lieutenant-luz-m-soto-segarra
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22722-agent-rosario-hernndez-de-hoyo
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.odmp.org/officer/22724-police-officer-juan-feliciano
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/22734-police-officer-thomas-cottrell
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/22733-police-officer-douglas-barney
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/22745-deputy-sheriff-derek-geer
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/22749-senior-deputy-mark-logsdon
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/22750-senior-deputy-patrick-dailey
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.odmp.org/officer/22752-police-officer-jason-moszer

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 21:23, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria
Wikipedia has three basic comprehensiveness approaches for "list of" articles: This article currently presents itself as a list of all 1) American 2) police officers who have been 3) killed 4) in the line of duty whose "deaths received significant local, national, or international attention". It is not. It is a reprint of the Officer Down Memorial Page, with occasional additions from other sources.
 * 1) Comprehensive: "List of mayors of Podunk, Montana" will include every mayor of that town, without regard to whether or not they have and article. These lists have reliable sources that list all of the members of the list. If you can find a source that claims to list all of the mayors and it is missing a few, it is not a reliable source. This won't work for "List of people from New York City".
 * 2) Notable members only: A comprehensive List of people from New York City would be pointless and useless, due to its length. Heck, we wouldn't even entertain a "List of people from Podunk, Montana" regardless of length. Instead, such articles (where they exist) are limited to notable members, typically blue-link notability.
 * 3) Subsets of either of the other two for various reasons. Characters in various works of fiction might be split between major and minor characters, etc.

We have several problems here.


 * We do not define "American" - Compared to the other problems, this one is fairly minor. Do we mean U.S. citizens? There are certainly foreign nationals working in various law enforcement capacities for the U.S. who are not citizens.


 * "Police officers" - We do not define this at all. The source for this page uses the vague "law enforcement officer". This may or may not include individuals in numerous activities, ranging from NSA to Fish and Wildlife. A park ranger who dies of skin cancer might qualify, depending on whether or not someone submits them to ODMP and the site accepts them. ODMP likely excludes private police. Whatever they include, we include (plus whatever else someone adds). Whatever they exclude, we exclude (unless someone else adds them).


 * "Killed" - Following ODMP's wishes to memorialize what they see as deaths caused by service, this list makes some NPOV choices. The source explicitly includes some deaths due to illnesses and excludes others. Heart attack that the site's "directors" feel was caused by a struggle with a suspect? Included. Suicide due to untreated mental illness precipitated by working conditions? Not included. Killed in the line of duty exerting excessive force or criminally involved in the case? Not included.


 * "in the line of duty" - Again, we are, in effect, using ODMP's vague memorializing criteria here. The site explicitly includes some off-duty deaths that it feels are worthy of memorializing on their page.

Moreover, this pages' "significant local, national, or international attention" is very vague. The concept of casualties in the Iraq War has received considerable attention, as has the use of private contractors to guard prisoners, protect convoys, stand sentry, etc. The line between such personnel and "law enforcement officers" is very thin (and not at all blue).

I note there were zero such deaths between 1791 and 1833. There were three during the Civil War (including the draft riots). The Philadelphia nativist riots were apparently not "significantly covered".

All in all, about 150 police officers' deaths were covered by the press from 1776 through 2009. Since then, the pace has quickened a bit, to roughly the same number last year alone. This is WP:RECENTISM, based on our complete reliance on a memorial page. There is no one around for whom the Young Brothers massacre feels recent enough to memorialize those killed. As a result, no one has submitted the to ODMP. Wikipedia is not for memorializing the dead. ODMP is. Of the roughly 1,500 police officers killed in the U.S. each year, this page will continue to selectively report a handful, based on subjective criteria here and at the ODMP. That is no an encyclopedia article, it's an outlet for grief. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 21:40, 30 October 2016 (UTC)


 * I took this line out of the lede, as its not true for this article any longer:


 * "The list includes only individuals whose deaths received significant local, national, or international attention, and is not an inclusive list of all such officers killed."
 * I disagree with how the list is now, but i am not going to argue about it. others can. my intention, when i created it, was to have a reaonable counterweight to the list of people killed by police, understanding that since police are authorized to use lethal force, killing by police may in fact be lawful, but pretty much all killings of police are unlawful. the idea was to have those police deaths listed which have wikipedia articles. but i dont use wording like that in a lede, but use other wording instead. I agree with Phd pretty much. remember, if WP becomes a site for memorializing the dead, what about the 100 billion other deaths which someone has mourned over the millenia? is it fair to only list the police dead? i would say that a list of the 6 million jews who died in the Shoah would be ok, as well as a list for the Khmer Rouge dead, Mercurywoodrose (talk) 17:02, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Is that a !vote for blue link notable listings only? - Sum mer PhD v2.0 17:10, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. either blue link, or for any other names, at least 2 news articles which show more than "officer killed", some sort of movement besides memorializing. Mercurywoodrose (talk)
 * I'm clear on blue link (see WP:CSC), but your second option seems a bit vague and subjective. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 17:05, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

If there are no other comments, we're about ready to roll on blue link notability. That will mean clearing out the majority of the article... - Sum mer PhD v2.0 04:45, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I rather expect that there are editors who feel strongly about this who are not reading the talk page. I will start with a change to the unencyclopedic "End of watch" to hopefully bring them into the discussion before putting much work into this. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 14:07, 22 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Whoa I think a change that sweeping needs to have a few more editors in the conversation. I, for one, want a chance to consider these arguments.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:55, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * With a proposal this sweeping, you need to attract more editors to a discussion and gain consensus. a proper way to to that is explained at Requests for comment.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:24, 23 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Note, SummerPhDv2, the fallacy in the argument at the top of your edit. This article is not a unique or i=ineligible type.  This article is in Category:Death in the United States-related lists, a longstanding category where we list deaths that seem remarkable.  I do not mean to say that there is any moral equivalence between police officers killed in the line of duty and, to pick an extreme example, individuals so unlucky as to be on the List of fatal alligator attacks in the United States, only that this is a standard kind of list.  There is, however, real moral equivalence with the List of journalists killed in the United States.  (See also Articles for deletion/List of journalists killed in the United States).  I think that it is an article that can be taken as a model for this one.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:13, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Strongly oppose the proposal to reduce this article to blue-links. As per practice common to similar articles including List of journalists killed in the United States, names of slain officers can be added, kept without any need to be bluelinked.   If there are names listed that lack RS, a template requesting source should be added to that name.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:19, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * In re: sourcing As a test, I clicked the first officer listed as killed in 2016, and the first listen in 2012. Both sourced only to the Down Officer Memorial Page   It was perfectly simple to source both, one to a big city daily, the other to a book by a legal publisher and apparently written to help educate police departments in best practice ways to avert confrontations and casualties.   I strongly oppose any immediate move to mass delete all names sourced solely to the Officer Down Memorial Page.   Prior to such a removal, the reliability of that page needs to be discussed on the Reliable Source Noticeboard.  Going forward, I certainly urge the use of WP:RSes.   With the older names, I oppose immediate mass deletion, proposing, instead, tagging for better sourcing.  Unless, of course, Officer Down  Memorial Page turns out to be a RS. User:SummerPhDv2 would also be well-advised to courtesy ping the editors who have been active on this page, as a show of good faith.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:53, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Comments - The Down Officer Memorial Page is not a reliable source for this article. It is based on idiosyncratic criteria that arenot encyclopedic and at odds with the title of this article. This page apparently intends to list -- at minimum -- tens of thousands of names, without stated inclusion criteria. Yes, there are other articles on Wikipedia. Some of them are superficially similar to this list. Some of them might be the very best articles on Wikipedia, may be nearly flawless in every possible way and might be worth considering as models for this one. Others might be poorly sourced, have unstated inclusion criteria, be textbook examples of recentism and, if completed in their present direction, might produce worthless lists of perhaps a hundred thousand names. Like this one. This is not a question of moral equivalence. This is a matter of encyclopedic value. We can generate a sourced list of businesses in the United States, from William Webster's upholstery shop to the corner store you Uncle Bill ran for 3 months in the 1950s. We can generate a sourced list of people who died from smallpox in the United States, from Joseph and Abigail Griscom to your Uncle Bill. We can then begin building similar lists for every country, past or present, in the world. The drive here seems to be to memorialize police who died as a result of doing their job. That's a fine motivation and the reason the ODMP exists. An exhaustive list here, though, is simply not of encyclopedic value. Hmmm, was Joe Ritter killed in the line of duty? He's not listed here, so maybe yes, maybe no. How many police officers died in the line of duty on September 11, 2001? Zero? Oh. How many were killed in the 1960s? 11? Interesting. An asbsolutely iron-clad 100% accurate and complete list would have research value. This list will never be remotely close to that. Instead, it's a list of a random selection of non-notable names. Officer Joe Ritter was an awesome guy. He had a wife and kids who he loved more than life itself. He was active in his community and touched numerous lives. He literally saved a guy from a burning building and yes, sometimes he caught the bad guy. Maybe he was shot by a drug dealer at age 34. Maybe he was hit by a car while walking back from lunch. Maybe he died from alcoholism, brought about by a stressful job. Maybe he died at a ripe old age from causes whose relationship to his profession are unknown. In any case, his death was a tragedy to those he knew and those he served. He was noteworthy, honorable and noble. He was not, however, notable. His life and death are noted in various places for various reason: PPD pension records, the family Bible, the Social Security Death Registry. It probably showed up in the newspapers. Maybe the Inquirer was vague about his cause of death. Maybe the now defunct Bulletin was more direct. Whether or not he is listed here is ultimately meaningless. That he "merits" (or does not merit) inclusion here based on whether his death was recent or not and whether or not someone submitted him to ODMP and the faceless admins there accepted him and whether or not someone sought out secondary sources for his death and whether or not he fits some unstated, arbitrary criteria here... It's worthless wheel spinning for no encyclopedic purpose.
 * For starters here, this list fails WP:CSC. It is not limited to bluelink notable entries (nor its mirror of only non-notable entries. There is no conceivable way it will be "Short, complete lists of every item that is verifiably a member of the group. These should only be created if a complete list is reasonably short (less than 32K) and could be useful (e.g., for navigation) or interesting to readers."
 * Next, the ODMP is not a reliable source. Consider its 900-womething uses here as "cite needed" tags. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 19:05, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the essay above. i substantially agree. as to what my comment about having 2 references showing notability might look like: im not sure myself. i am open to having rthe unavedlinks or nonlinks in the list, but they would have to have significant references, not just a local news story. most such notable killings WOULD already have articles, if we are doing articles consistently about significant deaths. I would say that the list would end up 95% blue links, 5% redlinks or no links.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 04:28, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that writing the article first would be substantially cleaner than the unavoidably vague 2 "significant" references. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 14:34, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

RfC - Inclusion/selection criteria
What should the inclusion/selection criteria be for this page? - Sum mer PhD v2.0 04:32, 18 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The current criteria are sourced deaths in the line of duty of American police officers, excluding deaths due to the 9/11 attacks and related illnesses.


 * Currently, we do not have a working definition for "American police officer" or "killed in the line of duty". Of relevance here is our heavy reliance on the "Officer Down Memorial Page" (ODMP). The current criteria likely allows for tens of thousands of entries here, based primarily on ease of sourcing (taking the entire list from the ODMP, recent news reports) and personal connections (wanting, e.g., Uncle John to be listed).


 * The selection criteria used by the ODMP involves the personal judgements of that site's directors and limiting factors that reflect their function as a memorial site (essentially deaths in some way caused by the job where the officer was not in any way culpable (excluding e.g. suicides, misconduct, etc.)).


 * I currently support limiting the list in some way to blue-link notability (i.e., notable officers and/or deaths in notable events). I feel the OMDP is an inherently biased source (unencyclopedic mission and WP:RECENTISM). I believe the logical extension of the current criteria would produce a list so long as to be unavoidably flawed and of no value. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 04:34, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

"(17) the term “law enforcement officer” means— (A) an employee, the duties of whose position— (i) are primarily— (I) the investigation, apprehension, or detention of individuals suspected or convicted of offenses against the criminal laws of the United States, or (II) the protection of officials of the United States against threats to personal safety; and (ii) are sufficiently rigorous that employment opportunities should be limited to young and physically vigorous individuals, as determined by the Director considering the recommendations of the employing agency;"
 * I found this under 5 U.S. Code § 8401;


 * Is this a good definition?  Adotchar | reply here  10:20, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It's one piece of the overall puzzle, with several problems. Were we to use it, we would need to change the article's title (police officers -> law enforcement officers). Next, we have a lot of marginal cases and judgement calls (WP:NPOV problems): a criminal defense attorney probably investigates individuals suspected of criminal offenses, as does someone employed to run background checks. In any case, if we sort all of that out, we still end up with a list of tens of thousands of entries. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 15:20, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Article is way too long
How about new pages around this such as List of American police officers killed in the line of duty (2017) and so on and so forth? This is the case with these pages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States#Lists_of_killings why not do it with this one also? Inexpiable (talk) 17:16, 21 March 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm hoping to make a start on this with a new page titled List of American police officers killed in the line of duty, 1993. Many more can be added. We owe it to these brave men and women who gave their lives in the line of duty. We have separate pages for lists of killings by law enforcement so why not for the officers themselves also? Inexpiable (talk) 17:20, 21 March 2017 (UTC)