Talk:List of lord lieutenants of Anglesey

Requested move 27 September 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved, general consensus is that the JOBTITLES guideline applies here and is consistent with similar other articles (closed by non-admin page mover) BegbertBiggs (talk) 19:33, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

– Per MOS:CAPS and MOS:JOBTITLES. I would've done all of this manually by myself, but I've noticed that these older offices can sometimes encounter more resistance to change. So out of an abundance of caution, I'm opening it up to a formal discussion. Woko Sapien (talk) 14:54, 27 September 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 15:20, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * List of Lord Lieutenants of Anglesey → List of lord lieutenants of Anglesey
 * List of Lord High Admirals of Scotland → List of lord high admirals of Scotland
 * List of Lord Chancellors and Lord Keepers → List of lord chancellors and lord keepers
 * List of Lord High Treasurers of England and Great Britain → List of lord high treasurers of England and Great Britain
 * List of Lord Chamberlains to British royal consorts → List of lord chamberlains to British royal consorts
 * List of Lords Lieutenant of County Dublin → List of lords lieutenant of County Dublin
 * List of Lords Justices of Appeal of Northern Ireland → List of lords justices of appeal of Northern Ireland
 * List of Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty → List of lords commissioners of the Admiralty
 * List of Lords Lieutenant of Dublin → List of lords lieutenant of Dublin
 * List of Lords Commissioners of the Treasury → List of lords commissioners of the Treasury
 * List of Lords of Appeal → List of lords of appeal
 * List of Lords of Wallingford Castle → List of lords of Wallingford Castle


 * Support clearly preferred by the MOS. estar8806 (talk) ★ 19:11, 28 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose, in general, because MOS:PEOPLETITLES says "Titles should be capitalized ... where the position/office is a globally unique title that is the subject itself, and the term is the actual title ... (not a description or rewording)". Thincat (talk) 19:28, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Thincat except none of these titles are being used here as subjects; they're all indirect objects following the preposition "of". Woko Sapien (talk) 15:27, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * So, the items listed in any "List of ..." article are not subjects but objects. Well, these days any opinion is as valid as any other one. Thincat (talk) 16:24, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually, yes. It's why "Vice President" is capitalized in Vice President of the United States but in List of vice presidents of the United States it is not. Rreagan007 (talk) 16:02, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Thincat not my opinion, just the rules of grammar. Woko Sapien (talk) 17:31, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you think "Lord High Admiral" is a descriptive phrase? It looks to me like a proper name. Thincat (talk) 17:52, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Please see the discussion below. "Lord High Admiral" is not plural. These lists are about "Lord High Admirals", not "Lord High Admiral". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:22, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I should have written "Lord High Admirals". I see we have (as a redirect) List of New Yorkers. Should it be "List of new yorkers"? But I'm wasting your (and everyone else's) time for which I apologise. Thincat (talk) 18:54, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * "Lord High Admiral" is not a proper noun. "The Lord High Admiral" is. "New Yorker" is always a proper noun, because it describes a group of people. estar8806 (talk) ★ 19:02, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually, MOS:JOBTITLES says not to capitalize the title if it is preceded by "the" – i.e. "a definite or indefinite article". See the examples "Richard Nixon was the president of the United States," "Theresa May was the prime minister of the United Kingdom", and "Louis XVI was the king of France when the French Revolution began," as contrasted with "Richard Nixon was President of the United States," "Theresa May became Prime Minister of the United Kingdom in 2016," and "Louis XVI became King of France and Navarre in 1774". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:16, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * "New Yorkers" is capitalized for a different reason. It involves a demonym, not a globally unique title. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:16, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Thincat job titles and demonyms have separate rules. For instance, "List of French kings" is correctly rendered. But "List of French Kings" and "List of french kings" are both incorrect. Woko Sapien (talk) 16:21, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Thincat "Lord High Admiral" = title, singular
 * "Lord high admirals" = description, plural Woko Sapien (talk) 06:32, 10 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Support per MoS and previous consensus on this situation. This has been discussed extensively before. Rreagan007 (talk) 16:01, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Strong support – obvious and extremely similar to other recent RMs. See, for example, List of presidents of the United States and its RM of 27 July 2019. These terms are not "the actual title", since the title is not plural. MOS:JOBTITLES says to use caps only when the title is "addressed as a title or position in and of itself, is not plural, is not preceded by a modifier ..." —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:53, 4 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment I agree in principle that when used in longer form, these titles do not need initial capitals, and that distinction makes sense for pages with sufficient content separate from the list, e.g. Prime Minister of the United Kingdom vs. List of prime ministers of the United Kingdom. However, given that many of the pages proposed to be moved do not have a separate article for the office itself, might there be a case for moving them to Lord Lieutenant of Anglesey, Lord High Admiral of Scotland etc? They would be more concise article titles, and likely better reflects how they are used in incoming links, e.g. on the page of Henry I Sinclair, Earl of Orkney, includes in its opening, "Henry I Sinclair, Earl of Orkney, Lord of Roslin ... was Lord High Admiral of Scotland". This wouldn't apply to all of them; for example, perhaps the main subject article for List of Lords Justices of Appeal of Northern Ireland is Courts of Northern Ireland.
 * Iveagh Gardens (talk) 12:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, no objection to having some of them go to titles like "Lord Lieutenant of X" if there is no such article already that contains a good description of the position. But in the absence of specific identification of such cases, this proposal is an improvement. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:40, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Iveagh Gardens yeah, I'd have no problem "delisting" some of these article titles at a later point. The idea certainly has merit. Woko Sapien (talk) 07:09, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * More examples of some very recent, very similar RMs, all with lowercase outcomes: Talk:List of Justices of the High Court of Australia (3 titles), Talk:List of Ministers of Foreign Affairs of Turkey (18 titles), Talk:List of High Commissioners of the Faroe Islands (25+ titles), Talk:High Commissioners for Palestine and Transjordan (6 titles), Talk:List of United States Ambassadors appointed by Joe Biden, Talk:List of United States Attorneys appointed by Joe Biden, Talk:United States Ambassadors appointed by Donald Trump, Talk:List of United States Attorneys appointed by Donald Trump. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:38, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Support, per and . Gawaon (talk) 18:42, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Support: This is Wikipedia style. It's taking a while to work through all these, but slowly Wikipedia is becoming consistent. SchreiberBike &#124; ⌨ 16:36, 10 October 2023 (UTC)