Talk:List of medieval great powers/Archive 2

Holy Roman Empire
Forgive me if I'm missing some context, but I'm surprised not to see the Holy Roman Empire listed under medieval (and modern?) empires, as it was surely the strongest political and military empire in the western world from the 13th to 17th centuries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.244.125.38 (talk) 19:23, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say it was the most powerful state in western europe from the 10th to 12th century. Afterwards the territorial states in the empire began to rise and the kings/emperors hardly had any power over them.--MacX85 (talk) 21:52, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

African Empires
I think this article is missing some African Empires, especially the Songhay Empire and the Ethiopian Empire, which were very powerful and influential before the european conquest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.75.176.153 (talk) 04:18, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

United States
Why is it that one of the greatest powers in history is not mentioned here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SwedishConqueror (talk • contribs) 23:59, 17 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Only historical powers (PRE-1815); see Great Powers for post-1815.--85.179.146.183 (talk) 22:47, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Historical Powers not Great Powers
Why are not historical the powers between the 19th and 20th centuries? Who decided that history ended in 1815 and after we have to refer only to the article about Great Powers? In fact the great powers article refers only to a specific group of powers, not to the historical powers in general as it is in the article we are talking about. So I added a section about the last two centuries with the historical powers in this period, if someone wants to argue, please I ask to explain his position well ---kayac71- (talk) 08:44, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

France
Why isn't France included among medieval powers ? France was the most populated kingdom in Europe bu far, the one with the biggest city (PAris = 200,000 inhabitants during the 13th century), a major cultural influence in christendom and certainly the strongest western European power from the 1210s to the 1340s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.68.28.164 (talk) 20:23, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Article tag
This article or section may contain previously unpublished synthesis of published material that conveys ideas not attributable to the original sources. Please list specific bulleted points to correct this. Otherwise the tag should be/will be removed. --J. D. Redding 10:45, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

split?
The Ancient section needs to be split into a new article titled Ancient historical powers. --J. D. Redding 03:32, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

The Middle Ages section needs to be split into a new article titled Medieval historical powers --J. D. Redding 10:32, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Papal states - gone... (bold change)
Hi,

I removed the whole section about the Papal states, because in *temporal* terms, they never amounted to a significant power (except perhaps for a brief spell in the 16th century and only then when acting in concert with other powers). The section I removed contained a lot of assertions about the Popes' spiritual power but I daresay this is largely irrelevant to the question of whether the Papal *states* were a major or minor power. By any historical measure, they were a third-rank power or so. Let them in and you'll have to add Milan and Florence to the list and perhaps Genoa (Venice and Naples do belong, in my opinion). Bazuz (talk) 10:28, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Just wanted to say, Genoa is in there already ... I don't think the papacy was a 3rd rank power, but on the fence on if they were a great power. I usually lean toward inclusion ... but there are plenty of more work on this article till get to the point that it needs to be re-included.
 * As to milan (Lombard League), it doesn't fit this article. And Florence was a autonomous medieval commune (a "real" 'city-state', but doesn't fit the article's scope either).--J. D. Redding 18:11, 8 June 2011 (UTC).

The notable thing would be "Papacy played a major temporal role in addition to its spiritual role." --J. D. Redding 10:47, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Which they didn't. Maybe as a buffer state during the Hapsburg-Valois wars and as a small nucleus of naval forces during the Lepanto-related campaigns. But not a major role, no way.
 * I understand that we are in agreement, right? Bazuz (talk) 13:47, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * "Throughout the Middle Ages the Pope claimed the right to depose the Catholic kings of Western Europe, and tried to exercise it, sometimes successfully". ... Church and state in medieval Europe.
 * Also keep in mind the Investiture Controversy.
 * Personally, I'm ambivalent to it ...
 * In the History of the papacy, Western Europe was for a time a group of states or countries under a single supreme authority (the pope) ... from a certain perspective (especially if juxtaposed with the caliphs of the Middle East). --J. D. Redding 15:00, 8 June 2011 (UTC) ps., they did help launch the first of the series of crusades, also.


 * Hi, I brought up Milan and Florence because usually Italy up to 1500 is thought to have been dominated by 5 powers: Venice, Florence, Milan, Naples and the Papal States. Now Venice and Naples had influence outside of Italy two so they get the pass but Florence and Milan do not, as you've said.
 * On a more general note - maybe we need a passages that explain the interactions between the states in each period? I feel that there is a layer of structure missing here. The article reads like an extended list and lacks coherence, imho. What do you think? Bazuz (talk) 19:04, 8 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes. A passages that explain the interactions in the scope of the article to add a deeper layer of structure is needed. I'm still adding images and doing some listing. Was going to look up a few old PD books about this and add that sort of content from them (for each of the periods, as I think that the nature changes over time). And it needs to be split into three separate articles: ancient, medieval, and modern (a tripartite periodization). Ancient and medieval summarized here and 'main'ed. Like I said above 'plenty of more work' to do. --J. D. Redding 19:36, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Papal States

 * 756 - 1870

The Papal States comprised those territories over which the Pope was the ruler in a civil as well as a spiritual sense before 1870. The plural Papal States is usually preferred; the singular Papal State is rather used for the modern State of Vatican City. By the Lateran Treaty of 1929, State of Vatican City was established. The history of the Roman Catholic Church from apostolic times covers a period of nearly two thousand years, making it the world's oldest and largest institution. The office of the pope is called the Papacy. And the ecclesiastical jurisdiction of the pope is called the Holy See or Apostolic See. The Papal States were formed around Rome in central Italy in the today regions of Lazio, Umbria, Marche and Emilia-Romagna, but also in a little portion of Provence (actual France) around the city of Avignon. During the Middle Ages the spiritual and civil authority of the Popes was far more extended over Europe, than the relatively small territories under their direct rule, the Papal States, that were the base of their power, in fact many kingdoms were vassals of the Holy See and the Popes were directly involved in the choosing of many Holy Roman Emperors. Usually the Popes were also involved as primary judges and counsellors in all the questions of marriage and succession regarding many kings. Particularly during the Late Middle Ages the Papacy played a major temporal role in addition to its spiritual role. The conflict between the Pope and the Holy Roman Emperor was fundamentally a dispute over which of them was the leader of Christendom in secular matters. The success of the early crusades added greatly to the prestige of the Popes as secular leaders of Christendom, with monarchs like the Kings of England, France, and even the Emperor merely acting as Marshals for the popes and leading "their" armies

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Historical_powers&diff=433009142&oldid=433008869

--J. D. Redding 10:30, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Various split proposals
I removed the split tags. This article has become so big that you cannot see the wood for the trees and splitting would not help. What would be typical for such an article would be a discussion about what is a historical power and then a list of examples. In each of the examples given, there is a separate article. For each one, a check needs to be made to ensure there is no data in this article that is not in the separate article and then the summary should be removed from this article. It may be worth having the dates and possibly some statistics if they are known for all of the members of the list. possibilities include %of the earth's surface under the power and % of population. Having the large summaries in this article and the separate articles is just a maintenance nightmare. Op47 (talk) 21:37, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Soviet Union?
I read this article and when I got to the end I realized that the Soviet Union was not listed. The USSR covered a vast amount of land area, and was perhaps the most powerful nation on Earth for portions of the 20th century. I could see the fact that it did not last as long as some other powers as a reason to exclude it, but the USSR changed human history. I see the USSR as analogous to Carthage, in the sense that although they were eventually overshadowed by their rivals they fundamentally shaped events enough to be considered especially significant. Thoughts? -- (unsigned comment by 66.244.80.7 dated 7 March 2012)


 * The USSR isn't left out. It's listed listed together with the Russian Empire, which was pretty much the same power and the same people (only with a different government).  That said, I wonder if "Russian Empire and after" could be renamed to "Russian Empire and USSR" since it was "USSR" for almost half the time period listed (and it was probably a greater power, on the world stage, as the USSR than as the Russian Empire). --- Why Not A Duck 21:08, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

The U.S.S.R was never anywhere close to being "the most powerful nation on Earth" at any point. At it's height, it had one tenth the GDP of the U.S, never had anywhere near the same level of military sophistication, and controlled a relatively small area given that the U.S de facto controlled almost the entirety of the rest of the world. I know this is not a forum, but I figured it's worth pointing out, as it's a myth that's all too often repeated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.222.159.20 (talk) 01:18, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Should we add Kievan Rus'?
Should we add Kievan Rus'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Constantinehuk (talk • contribs) 00:49, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism/
Vandalism?

edit at 11.28 14 November does not look OK: has to be modified? PSuper48paul (talk) 11:53, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Can get a move to List of historical powers?
Can get a move to List of historical powers? --J. D. Redding 13:55, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Split
This page is too long to read and navigate comfortably; it is more than twice the recomended maximum size for an article. We should (for starters) split into List of ancient great powers and List of medieval great powers. tahc chat 15:58, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with your suggestion.--Navops47 (talk) 16:20, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I have made this split. tahc chat 13:47, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Should Georgia be added?
The Kingdom of Georgia fits the definition of a great power (seeing as how its military was able to defeat the Byzantines and Seljuks, as well as dominate the Caucasus region), but I was unable to find any sources that specifically call it a great power. Despite this fact, should it be added? 21st of March, 2016, 23:52 (UTC+4) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.134.137.175 (talk) 19:53, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Ottoman Empire
How come there is no Ottoman Empire in this list? I am not a historian, but I believe the Ottoman Empire was one of the medieval great powers. Am I wrong? Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by TeteauLeGrande (talk • contribs) 21:48, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

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Scholars have used term, "medieval great powers" for 50+ years
In fact scholars for decades have used the term: 1) 1972 in "In Eastern Europe peace periods were created in Hungary, Bohemia and Poland because of the collapse of medieval great powers" [Peace Research Vol. 4, No. 3 (March 1972), pp. 17-20]   (2) The SAGE Encyclopedia of War (2016) p 1185 "Military power secured the vital interests of ancient and medieval great powers. Some early states practiced..." (3) Civilizations, Empires, and Wars (1992) p 113 "Medieval Great Powers included China throughout, Persia...." [gives a list] (4) Toynbee (1965) "In other words, there was no relation between medieval “nations and medieval “Great Powers',"  (5) Great Powers and Geopolitical Change (2008) - Page 231 has a list of medieval great powers. Rjensen (talk) 03:49, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Can we revert back to how it? And why I think it was better that way.
About the edits that Srnec has made,

Look, I get what you mean by saying that technically the term "Great Powers" wasn't around at that time and that the consideration of what was or wasn't a great power differs from author to author, but only listing the opinion of one author is only giving one point of view. Now I might not know much, but I don't think that this wikipedia page should be just told from what one author thinks. Instead, we should have multiple authors and the previous version had multiple authors and many more countries.

Now, maybe the old article might have had stated stuff that could be debated on weither or not they are true, but the solution to that is just writing in the article that this is opinion or by listing a bit of the other side instead of erasing the whole article and putting up just one author's opinion when the article's name would clearly imply not just one opinion.

Plus, the list isn't as helpful with information than the previous. The previous one talked about all the different countries and gave a bit on why they were important which really helps someone to quickly find information just by looking at this list and with the great amount of countries and detail about each country it gave it allowed anyone to determine for themselves which ones they thought were great or not, but this list just... doesn't. If anyone wants to know why the countries on the list are considered great then they have to go to every single state and do a bunch more research and work for no reason, plus they would also have to look at a bunch more state such as Carlemange to figure out if they're important.

In summary, while the previous article could do with some edits, the new article make the article generally less helpful, less informative, and suffers from using only one author's view. 2600:8800:5E00:6DE:FD5F:F1A6:4A21:F80C (talk) 18:00, 23 November 2019 (UTC)


 * (a) The only sources that are relevant are ones that use the term "great power". (b) This is a list, so we should keep it simple. (c) Whatever is added, we must avoid WP:SYN. That means that Eckhardt (1992) has to be kept separate from anything else, since he apparently holds his list to be exhaustive. (d) Go ahead and add a wastebasket list of countries somebody somewhere labeled a great power in print if you must, just cite your sources. Srnec (talk) 22:48, 23 November 2019 (UTC)


 * im pretty sure you're taking WP:SYN in an over broad direction and out of context not to mention the term great power has many synonyms great empire and world power for instance to preclude those terms from inclusion would be nitpicking2600:1007:B1A1:2DF8:B172:8BC1:278F:5FFA (talk) 02:16, 20 January 2020 (UTC)


 * i can find no other pages in which WP:SYN is taken to such an extreme it is highly improbable that this was the intent of that policy this must be the result of misinterpretation and should be reverted2601:405:4A80:B950:31F3:9D8B:BF89:95CD (talk) 17:04, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * so its decided we will revert the page it’s quite clear srnec is unfamiliar with What SYNTH is notIrishfrisian (talk) 06:50, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Carolingians
By chance I came across this list and I am surprised that it doesn’t contain the Carolingian Empire (750-843) and the Holy Roman Empire (950-1250). When I read the discussion here I see that some persons who contribute to the discussion want to go back to this version here. May be, this old list included a bit too many states. So maybe the list we have now can be the starting point of a better list, but as of now it is incomplete. Of course, it is a big advantage to overcome Eurocentrism and list a lot of non-Western-European great powers which may not be so commonly known to everybody, but I'm pretty sure William Eckhardt's just trying to make the point that outside Western Europe these great powers existed. To just arbitrary take one author (who is as unknown as William Eckhardt that there is no Wikipedia entry about his person as an acknowledged historian) and then claim with taking WP:SYN that there would be a list, which excludes everything that this list does not include, is (from my point of view) complete nonsense. Just have a look into the book The Carolinigan World in order to understand, that the Carolingian Empire of course was a very important great power, the definite great power of Western Europe by that time. Its rise came with the mayor domus Charles Martel and the begin of the fall with the Treaty of Verdun. Somebody who claims that the Carolingian Empire wasn’t a great power of the Middle Ages (and therefore should be excluded in such a list here) just shows from my point of view (sorry to express that) very poor understanding of the whole Middle Ages. So I hope that was not the point William Eckhardt wanted to make. If you just read the Wikipedia article about the Middle Ages, you can understand how ridiculous this would be. The same is true (with some reduction compared to the Carolingian Empire of course) for the Holy Roman Empire. The rise came with the emperor Otto the Great and the decline after the death of emperor Frederick II. Anyway, there might be some minor claims to not list the Holy Roman Empire for that period, but I think that it should be part of that list. If the list includes the Vikings as an example of a great power that was not (really) a political Great Power and excludes such a giant like the Carolingian Empire it is completely meaningless. Someone who can’t at least agree on the Carolingian Empire to have been a great power is (from my point of view) not the very first skilled person to decide how such a list should look like. --Stolp (talk) 15:10, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * So now I have at least added the Carolingian Empire to the list. Just to mention, the Abbasid-Carolingian alliance existed. So if the caliph should have thought that the Carolingian Empire did not have the same status as the caliphate, why would he have been in such contact? --Stolp (talk) 20:31, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * And just to add that of course with the decline of the Holy Roman Empire in the late Middle Ages the Kingdom of France was the successor as great power in Western Europe since 1250. --Stolp (talk) 21:11, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * We need a source that refers to the Carolingian Empire as a "great power". Nothing else will do. This is a very specific concept. We don't make these decisions. See WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Srnec (talk) 01:16, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I have added three sources. Have you read them? Just go into here and find the magic words "great power in Europe". --Stolp (talk) 06:50, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Strategy & Tactics isn't a reliable source. Srnec (talk) 11:39, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * No, but it tells something, which is normally obvious and I can't find anything which is wrong in this short abstract. But I throw it out. Within Thomas Hodgkin’s book The life of Charlemagne (Charles The Great) you can read that “such a monarchy even now would be the greatest power in Europe”. And further you can find “...the kingdom of the Franks when united and at peace within itself, was the strongest power in Europe, …” Find it here. --Stolp (talk) 13:55, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Is the greatest power in North America c. 800 on the list? This is why we cannot interpret "greatest power in Europe" the way you are suggesting. Srnec (talk) 22:09, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * What is about the author Henry Davis who tells in the book Medieval Europe that these crowded years of war leave the Frankish Empire established as the one great power west of the Elbe and Adriatic? --Stolp (talk) 00:33, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

First Bulgarian Empire
The translation from great power into German is Großmacht. The Institute for East and Southeast European Studies of the Leibniz Association describes the First Bulgarian Empire as an "early medieval great power between Byzantium and the Occident" (in German: Eine frühmittelalterliche Großmacht zwischen Byzanz und Abendland). You can read that in this paper here, unfortunately in German. Would that then be a reliable source for here or must the English word great power always be printed verbatim in the source in order to be acceptable? --Stolp (talk) 15:36, 10 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Other languages are acceptable. Srnec (talk) 15:39, 10 May 2020 (UTC)


 * O.k., thank you for the quick answer. In that case it would have been very easy for me to proof that the Carolingian Empire was indeed a great power ;-) --Stolp (talk) 15:55, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Just for example here --Stolp (talk) 15:56, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

In the list still missing medieval great powers
Frank Schimmelfennig has written in his book International Politics (= Basic course in political science, Volume 3107). UTB, Paderborn 2008 ISBN 978-3-506-76581-9, page 74 the following:
 * „Eine eindeutige und allgemein akzeptierte Definition existiert jedoch nicht, so dass es im Einzelfall umstritten sein kann, ob ein Staat als Großmacht gelten kann.“
 * In English this means
 * "However, there is no clear and generally accepted definition, so that in individual cases it can be disputed whether a state can be considered a great power."

When I now read the section on the Middle Ages in the German Wikipedia article Great Power, I read about this time:


 * The "Great Powers" of the early Middle Ages are the Roman Empire, which became the Byzantine Empire, the Frankish Empire, the Islamic Caliphate and still China. In the High Middle Ages the Holy Roman Empire and France emerged from the Frankish Empire. The Ottoman Empire replaced the Byzantine Empire as a great power. During their heyday, the two northern Italian city republics of Genoa and Venice had a supremacy in the Mediterranean region, Egypt attained a great power position during the time of the Ayyubids and the Mamluks, and the Mongol empires even achieved hegemony in Central and East Asia for a short time. On the American double continent, the empires of the Incas and Aztecs established themselves in the 15th century.

In my opinion, all this is correctly described. Unfortunately, no individual proofs are provided there. I am sure, however, that these statements can all be proven (if not so easy in English, at least with German literature). Unfortunately, I have little time at the moment, but little by little I will search out appropriate proofs, so that this list can be supplemented here little by little. --Stolp (talk) 20:02, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 May 2020
178.223.50.31 (talk) 01:15, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Serbian Empire (1346–1450)
 * Pictogram voting comment.svg Note: Ignoring the malformed request; the book refers to the Serbian Empire as "the major power in the Balkans". Someone more knowledgeable in medieval history will surely be able to figure whether a regional power counts as a "great power" for the purposes of this... RandomCanadian (talk | contribs) 02:15, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm going to be bold and decline this request. First of all the source listed doesn't support its addition. But also, the time frame you give, 1346 to 1450, is almost the exact time frame of the Fall of the Serbian Empire. So I don't think that it was a great power as it was ceasing to exist as a medieval state. Later, by 1867, Serbia was "still a tiny, backward principality" of the Ottoman Empire. Other editors have tried to argue that the Serbian Empire should be included because "lesser" states are included, too. That, too, seems subjective and unsourced. I searched "Serbian Empire" & "Great Power" and found nothing. Please find a reliable source clearly referencing this empire as a "great power" during the Middle Ages, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be included. Thank you. Donna Spencer talk-to-me ⛅ 03:04, 14 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I would agree to user Donna Spencer, the Serbian Empire wasn't a real great power from a world history point of view. --Stolp (talk) 08:01, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Holy Roman Empire in the High Middle Ages
Within this segment I will show that the Holy Roman Empire was a real medieval great power in between the years 950 and 1200 and should therefore be part of the list.

Of course, as already mentioned above with Frank Schimmelfennig, there is no clear and generally accepted definition, so that in individual cases it can be disputed whether a state can be considered a great power. Furthermore Jack Levy, president of the International Studies Association (2007 – 2008) has written in his book ''War in the Modern Great Power System 1495 – 1975. '' (The University Press of Kentucky, Lexington 1983, ISBN 978-0-8131-5339-1) on page 20] that there are limits, however, to how far back the system can be extended. The concept of a “Great Power system cannot be applied to medieval Europe, … sovereign states had not yet fully developed … and did not possess full independence from the authority of the pope and Holy Roman emperor on political as well as ecclesiastical and moral issues.” But now, what is about the Holy Roman Emperor itself? The historian Frank Rexroth is Professor of Medieval and Modern History at the University of Göttingen and has been there since 2000.

In his book German history in the Middle Ages (C.H. Beck, Munich 2005, second review edition, 2007, ISBN 978-3-406-48007-2) he has written on page 22 the following.
 *  „Die besondere Nähe der der ottonischen und frühsalischen Herrscher zur Reichskirche sollte ganz erheblich zum Aufstieg des ostfränkischen Reiches zur europäischen Großmacht beitragen, wie er in den 940er Jahren schon zu bemerken war.“ 

In English this means:
 * "The special proximity of the Ottonian and early Salian rulers to the Imperial Church was to contribute quite considerably to the rise of the East Frankish Empire to a European great power, as was already noticeable in the 940s".

It was then evident after the victory at the Battle of Lechfeld and the imperial coronation of Otto the Great 962.

Professor Márta Font, member of the Academy of Sciences and Literature in Mainz has written a book in Hungarian which was translated by Tibor Schäfer into German. The title is ''Im Spannungsfeld der christlichen Großmächte. Mittel- und Osteuropa im 10.-12. Jahrhundert. Translated into English this means In the field of tension between the great powers of Christianity. Central and Eastern Europe in the 10th-12th century. '' (Schäfer Verlag in Herne 2008, ISBN 978-3-933337-47-4)

Márta Font describes the history of Hungary in the 10th to 12th century in between the great powers Germany (Holy Roman Empire) and Byzantium (Byzantine Empire).

Johannes Haller and Heinrich Dannenbauer had written in their book From the Carolingians to the Staufer: The Old German Imperial Era, which was published in Berlin 1970 in the publishing house Walter de Gruyter on page 129
 *  „Es zeigte sich an, dass die deutsche Führung im Abendland aufgehört hatte und an ihrer Stelle die neue französische Großmacht sich erhob.“ 

In English this means:
 *  “It became apparent that the German leadership in the West had ceased to exist and that the new French great power was rising in its place.” 

Meant is here the situation at the beginning of the 13th century. I can understand that I cannot find any further evidence beyond the year 1200. With the death of Emperor Henry VI, the old medieval power of the Holy Roman Empire came to an end. After 1197 the power was divided between the rival kings Philip of Swabia and Otto IV. At the latest after the Battle of Bouvines 1214 the rise of the new great power of the late Middle Ages became apparent. This role was assumed by France. The rule of Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor 22 November 1220 – 13 December 1250 was of course still very remarkable, but he did no longer rule at the center of the empire but in the South of Italy. During his rule the Holy Roman Empire started to fragment into a muddle of individual territories which existed until the end of the 18th century in the center of Europe. Only in modern times did the Holy Roman Emperor regain the status of a great power. However, this was not due to the Holy Roman Empire, but to his personal power in Spain and Austria.

These statements thus prove that it is fair to assert that the Holy Roman Empire from 950 – 1200 can be classified as a medieval great power, as shown by the relevant literature, which appears to be available only in German. --Stolp (talk) 08:33, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

France in the Late Middle Ages
As already in the section before stated, Jack Levy tells in his book War in the Modern Great Power System 1495 – 1975  on page 20] and following pages that the concept of a “Great Power system cannot be applied to medieval Europe, … but France and England can perhaps be considered major territorial states by the end of the Hundred Years’ War.”

So, one should be careful when adding additional medieval great powers to the list, but I think the Kingdom of France should be added, anyway.

Johannes Haller and Heinrich Dannenbauer tell that since the 13th century  “it became apparent that the German leadership in the West had ceased to exist and that the new French great power was rising in its place.” 

There are even more proves: The historians Joachim Ehlers, Heribert Müller and Bernd Schneidmüller published the book The French kings of the Middle Ages: from Odo to Charles VIII 888 - 1498 (C. H. Beck Munich 2006, ISBN 978-3-406-54739-3) and on page 184 you can read that during the reign of Philip IV “France finally grew into a European great power, even defining in the first place what it means to be a European great power” (Original German sentence: “… Frankreich endgültig zu einer europäischen Großmacht heranwuchs, ja in der überhaupt erst definiert wurde, was es heiße, eine europäische Großmacht zu sein…“)! This statement was given by the author of the chapter about king Philip IV of France, who is the historian Jürgen Miethke.

We can find further evidence when again looking to Henry Davis who tells in the book Medieval Europe on page p. 159 and 160:


 * “To the west lay the monarchies of the Iberian peninsula, of France, England, and Scotland ; connected by their interest in the trade of the Atlantic seaboard, by a common civilisation in which the best elements were of French origin, but most of all by their preoccupation with the political questions arising out of England's claim to a good half of the territory of France. The rivalry of these two great powers, which dated in a rudimentary form from the Norman Conquest of England, became acute when Henry II, heir in his mother's right to England and Normandy, in that of his father to Anjou and Touraine, married Eleanor the duchess of Aquitaine and the divorced wife of Louis VII (1152). Developing from one stage to another, it alternately made and unmade the fortunes of either nation for four hundred years, until Charles VII of France brought his wars of reconquest to a triumphant conclusion by crushing, in Guyenne, the last remnants of the English garrison and of the party which clung to the English allegiance (1453).”

Taking all that together we also have to add the kingdom of France to the list, and I would suggest to take the time range of 1300 until 1415, when the Battle of Agincourt obviously ended the great power of France for several decades. The Battle of Castillon 1453 reestablished this great power since then.

Henry Davis in his book Medieval Europe also names England a great power as we have seen on page 159, but I am not quite sure about the exact time range. I am not an expert of English medieval history and would leave it to other experts to judge, whether we should (and if yes for which time range we should) add England or not. I'm only going to add the kingdom of France, as suggested. --Stolp (talk) 18:57, 14 May 2020 (UTC)


 * A list of this nature really shouldn't be made this way. Srnec (talk) 22:29, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Which way would you prefer? --Stolp (talk) 22:42, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer if scholars wrote on the topic of medieval great powers directly, like they do for modern great powers. This isn't a list of great powers of medieval Europe. Srnec (talk) 22:47, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course, this is a list of the great powers of the world 500 – 1500, and it bothers me that at least France is still missing, and one can find books by reliable scholars, where France is labeled as great power of the Late Middle Ages. The term great power is not protected at all, as Frank Schimmelfennig stated. In fact, there are some publications on European powers in the Middle Ages, which even by well-known scholars are certainly classified as great powers, and somehow I got the impression that the classification of such powers as the Angevin Empire, the North Sea Empire, the Republic of Venice, the Republic of Genoa or the Kalmar Union as great powers (and to be listed as such) is undesirable here. There is also evidence that other powers such as the Duchy of Burgundy or the Teutonic Order have been classified as European great powers. But all this is obviously undesirable here, because it seems that no major European powers are wanted here at all. In some respects I can understand this, since Jack Levy says that the principle of modern great powers, at least for Europe, cannot be transferred to the Middle Ages, because in Roman Catholic Europe of the Middle Ages the Pope and the Emperor were the legitimate supreme spiritual and secular leaders and the other powers not really independent but subordinated to them, in theory.


 * Anyway, this feudal fragmented Roman Catholic Europe was always able to defending itself from outside invaders when it was necessary or even becoming offensive successfully as the Crusades have shown. In the end, no non-European great power throughout the Middle Ages succeeded in conquering and subjugating Roman Catholic Central and Western Europe. And there have been several attempts.


 * After the end of the middle ages, in the first half of the 16th century, the Kingdom of France then ranked 5th (as stated here in French) in the world among the great powers behind the Empire of China, the Mughal Empire, the Ottoman Empire and the Kingdom of Spain (Original in French: "À la Renaissance, la France occupe la 5ème place mondiale derrière la Chine, l’Inde, l’empire Ottoman et l’Espagne").
 * If you add France, make sure you add Spain. I object to England. Srnec (talk) 15:06, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * O. k., I will do France and Spain. Spain came only very late in the 15th century. Jack S. Levy has written in his book War in the Modern Great Power System 1495 – 1975 (The University Press of Kentucky, Lexington 1983, ISBN 978-0-8131-5339-1), page 20: Spain can't be seen as great power "until the union of Castile and Aragon in 1479 (or even until the expulsion of the Moors in 1492)". But then with the marriage of Joanna of Castile with Philip the Handsome (with his Burgundian and Austrian inheritance) suddenly a great power was born which rose like a rocket in the early 16th century and overtook France in the great power ranking. --Stolp (talk) 19:16, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * You are right. Forget Spain. Srnec (talk) 19:33, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh, I haven't read this before the edit was already done. In any case, I think it is fair to have the Catholic Monarchs of Spain on the list, as I have now from 1479. They are indeed the founders of the Spanish Empire. --Stolp (talk) 21:49, 17 May 2020 (UTC)


 * That France was already a great power in the 14th century is for example expressed by the fact that the popes got under the direct influence of the French crown by transferring their seat from Rome to Avignon. Interesting also that at the very beginning of the Wikipedia article Kingdom of France you can read the sentence:
 * “It was among the most powerful states in Europe and a great power since the Late Middle Ages.”


 * I haven’t written that sentence, it just confirms me. The Late Middle Ages by the way were lasting from 1250 to 1500 CE!


 * So, if we do not want so see any European major power in the list, at least the leading great powers in their respective times have to be accepted, and that were the Carolingian Empire (751–843), the Holy Roman Empire (950–1200) and finally the Kingdom of France (1300–1500). --Stolp (talk) 06:52, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * But it has nothing to do with what we want. It is all about sources! Which I think are inadequate for the task, hence the two previous AFDs. Unfortunately, the community seems to think—because of these kinds of Google exercises—that there is a topic here. There isn't. But if the community insists on an article, I will insist on adequate sourcing for each and every item, however incoherent I think the result may be. Srnec (talk) 19:33, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Venice and Genoa?
The list miss Genoa is and Venice who had empires in the Mediterranean

Bagan Kingdom
Do those sources say that the Bagan Kingdom was a great power? Srnec (talk) 23:11, 10 May 2022 (UTC)