Talk:List of most-visited art museums/Archive 1

Powerhouse Museum
The Powerhouse Museum, Sydney Australia had 719,000 visitors in the 2008-09 financial year. It needs including. Reference: Trustees of the Museum of Applied Arts and Sciences

Amandajm (talk) 07:36, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Museum of Modern Art
Where is the MoMA? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.2.161.248 (talk) 21:31, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I too was surprised at the MoMA's absence.72.93.180.160 (talk) 22:50, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Why do you mix "free fees" musems with "paying fees " ones?

they aren't the same, when you'll get almost 9millions ppl visiting Louvre museum paying 14€, and ppl crossing others free museums halls only for a ride!


 * ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.91.105.90 (talk) 12:55, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Philadelphia Museum of Art
I found it peculiar that the PMA was not on this list, considering it is in the top ten most visited US art museum. Any ways, I checked the attendance numbers from some shaky sources and found them in agrence that the PMA has about 800,000 visitors a year.

Mannybrown1 (talk) 04:28, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Many art museums missing...
Where are, for exemple, just to the Paris exemple, the "Musée Rodin" (Paris, France, 714,260 visitors last year), the "Musée de l’Orangerie" (Paris, France, 690,883) or The "Galeries nationales du Grand Palais" (Paris, France, 1,542,017)? 85.170.18.111 (talk) 17:39, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Centro Cultural Banco do Brasil?
The Centro Cultural Banco do Brasil is listed twice in different ranks, with different amount of visitors, none of them referenced. 186.104.124.121 (talk) 03:58, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Prado?
Curiosly, there are several Spanish and Madrid museums, but not the Prato... has it been closed in 2012? --Sailko (talk) 10:57, 11 April 2013 (UTC) The Prado had 2.8 million visitors in 2012 http://www.museodelprado.es/index.php?id=88&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=1257&no_cache=1&L=0 134.255.186.98 (talk) 16:38, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

2013 update
Some of the museums are updated for 2013 and some are not. Doesn't the lead clearly state which numbers should be included? "This list of 100 is based on an attendance survey compiled by The Art Newspaper published in April 2013." – Editør (talk) 20:39, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


 * The Art Newspaper has published the 2013 visitor figures. – Editør (talk) 09:30, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Here is a pdf of the complete issue. – Editør (talk) 09:33, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Updated! – Editør (talk) 10:02, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Template produces poor PDF (print) output
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So what about non-art museums?
I don't like this list and especially don't like the leading sentence: This article lists the most visited art museums in the world (i.e. all museums with any form of art on display, some museums such as the Natural History Museum are excluded). Why is this so? It seems pretty pointless if only some museums are included. Regarding Britain it seems strange to include the British Museum, V&A, National Gallery, Tates and National Portrait yet exclude the Science Museum and NHM. Apart from the few pure art lovers I;ve never met a tourist in London who says Let's go to the British and the Tate Modern but give the Science museum a wide berth because there's no art. Either this article should include non-art museums (and all the countless other museums in China and elsewhere in the UK which would otherwise appear high up the table) or it should be deleted.-- XANIA - ЗAНИAWikipedia talk &#124; talk 20:09, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:List of most common surnames in Asia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 08:00, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Unreliable Chinese Source
There's no way that the Forbidden City in Beijing could have so many more visitors than the Louvre, or more visitors period. For most of the recent past (the last decade or so), the Louvre was easily on top. Now, a single source from China itself, a country whose government is well known for self-serving propaganda, suddenly declares itself on top by an unrealistically wide margin. This is in spite of zero confirmation of the Forbidden City's attendance records by an objective, unbiased, outside source. -- 69.86.93.93 (talk) 02:42, 6 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I just checked and you're right. Other sources have the number of visitors significantly lower. It doesn't make sense to have this list when there are so many different patch-worked sources from different years. This is dangerous misinformation. El cid, el campeador (talk) 02:06, 24 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I third. hans are the most despicable untrustworthy lying people you could ever come across. That apart china (let alone beijing) does not figure even among even the top 10 most-visited nations for quite a few nationalities like the Americans e.g. Cities like New York and Paris (possibly the two greatest cities in today's world) have the MMA and the Louvre which alone would draw a significant percentage of the tourists visiting those respective museums. I reckon we should tag that claim till a reliable non-chinese reference is put in there.117.194.233.23 (talk) 19:25, 3 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Well that IP address seems slightly biased against the Chinese lol. But anyway, I added some disclaimers. I'm not a wiki expert so if there are better ways to put it, someone be my guest. But I definitely think we need to represent that these are NOT all from the same source and therefore their comparable reliability is questionable. It's also not accurate to say the article is compiled (solely) from the magazine's survey, since there are clearly other sources. El cid, el campeador (talk) 12:40, 7 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I came here to say this. Plus, can the Forbidden City really be considered an art museum? Having it at number one discredits the whole list IMO — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.24.142.223 (talk) 09:06, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Page move
Any objections to moving this to List of most visited art museums per this? Pinging User:Randy Kryn. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 08:03, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi Anna. I will come here to object on moving the two pages when I've visited each one to access both their position on or off the globe and their relative size compared to the soon-to-be newly-discovered Luna Museum de Art. But until then, good finds! Randy Kryn 12:33, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Very funny. :) Actually you should vist the Jupiter Museum of Modern Art. They have their own version of Marina Abramović -- a martian woman who just sits there for decades. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:27, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

See also: Talk:List of largest art museums in the world Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:27, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Italian museums 2016 datas
http://www.beniculturali.it/mibac/export/MiBAC/sito-MiBAC/Contenuti/MibacUnif/Comunicati/visualizza_asset.html_892096923.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.223.251.222 (talk) 16:47, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Deutsches Museum
I am surprised to find the Deutsches Museum on the list of art museums. It is clearly a science and technology museum.Anme2212 (talk) 17:34, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Anme2212 is right. Could anybody strip the Deutsches Museum from the list!? --Marsupium (talk) 09:14, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Forbidden City and FAMSF?

 * It seems like quite a stretch to include the Forbidden City in the list, since it is primarily a palace or tourist attraction in itself and most of the visitors are not going for the artwork or museum section. If the Forbidden City counts, why not Versailles? It has paintings too. Also, Museum doesn't list the Forbidden City / Palace Museum—how is it that it is an art museum but not a museum?
 * FAMSF is two museums. The Legion of Honor is way up near the Presidio and the De Young Art Museum is in the middle of Golden Gate Park. They may be administered together, but they are not the same museum in any meaningful sense. If they are thought of as one museum, then wouldn't Tate Modern and Tate Britain be one museum as well? Also, it seems highly dubious to add the two separate institutions together to count visitors, since anyone visiting both sites in a single day would be counted twice. Same goes for the Getty Center and the Getty Villa.
 * Jun-Dai (talk) 18:26, 8 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I respectfully disagree with Jun-Dai on his statement above; I believe the National Palace Museum in Beijing should be included in both the list of most-visited art museums and most  visited museums.  it has a very large art collection on display, and in its reserves;  it exchanges exhibits with the Louvre and other art museums, and is opening up a branch in Hong Kong.  The Hermitage and the the Louvre are also former palaces, and feature restored historic rooms as well as their art collections, and they are in the list.   Versailles is not listed because it doesn't have galleries of paintings and art objects, just restored rooms.  It's odd to me that a list of major art museums would leave out the largest collection of art in one of the major cities of the world.  Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 13:51, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I was surprised, too, to see the Palace Museum in the art museum list and not in the museum list. It clearly deserves to be listed as an art museum (and one of the best in the world), but the numbers are misleading because only a small part of the palace is devoted to the art collections, and most people probably spend little or no time there. Anyway, I tend to agree with SiefkinDR: it's better to put it in both lists than nowhere (maybe with a footnote explaining that no numbers are available about the number of people who visit the art museum part of the Palace). Seudo (talk) 21:28, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

I think this list is in need of culling
Palace Museum should probably go, as well as stuff like Folk Museums.

That's not what one has in mind then considering going to an art museums. Every place where the building and territory is more interesting than the display should probably go.

Come to think of that, everything that is touched by human hand is art, and some other stuff too. But we should probably only consider museums displaying items en masse that were art from the day one.

Ilyak (talk) 10:06, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Ranking of National Museum of China on list of art museums
There is little doubt that the National Museum of China was the most visited museum in the world in 2016, but there is considerable reason to doubt that it is primarily an art museum, the requirement for this list.


 * First, The citation given is misleading.    The source given for adding the National Museum of China is not a list of art museums, but a list of general museums, including  the Natural History Museum and Air and Space Museum in Washington.  The primary source for this article, the list of the world's most visited art museums in the Art Newspaper Review of April 2017, does not include the National Museum of China.


 * Second, the history and description of the National Museum of China don't support the idea that it is primarily an art museum. According to the website of the museum, it was created in 1969 from a merger of the National Museum of Chinese History and the National Museum of the Chinese Revolution, neither one primarily an art museum.  As described in the website of the NMC, the Museum "records our country's splendid achievements in history, art, and social development."  The message from the Director of the Museum speaks of "The NMC's glorious mission to protect and impart China's distinguished historical, revolutionary, and contemporary culture."   While the museum does have an exceptional collection of Chinese art, and now  hosts exhibits of art from outside China, it is first and foremost a museum on the history of China.


 * One editor stated that the National Museum of China is comparable to the State Hermitage Museum in St. Petersburg, Russia, but that museum was created specifically as an art museum in 1764, and has remained an art museum since that time. The Hermitage features art from around the world (and in fact has very little Russian art), and does not have galleries of history or other subjects.


 * If the Art Newspaper or another respected art source concludes that the National Museum of China is primarily an art museum and puts in on their list in 2018, then the list should be revised.  But in the absence of that, the Louvre should remain the number one art museum.    Opinions by other editors on this topic are very welcome. SiefkinDR (talk) 12:33, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

If you remove the National Museum of China from this list, then you would have to remove the other Asian museums, especially the national ones, from this list as well, because there is nothing different between them. Absolutely nothing. Is this different than the National Museum of Korea? Different than Israel Museum? Different than the Japanese National Museum? Different than National Palace Museum (over 85% of the National Palace Museum's collections are books and archives)? Are these museums NOT about history of places and cultures? They are all illustrating the history and culture through art objects.--DerechoReguerraz (talk) 02:53, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Also you would have to remove the British Museum as well, since that museum is "dedicated to human history, art and culture". According to the National Museum of China's website, it stated "Its basic functions are collections of cultural relics and artworks, exhibitions, public education, history and art research and cultural communication." How is this different?--DerechoReguerraz (talk) 02:53, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

If you only want to limit this list to just contemporary and classical "art galleries", then that's another discussion, but you CAN NOT just single out National Museum of China when for instances, still leave all the other Asian national museums on this list.--DerechoReguerraz (talk) 02:53, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't see what 'asian' has to do with anything. Justifying a place in this list with a 'because it has art in it' rationalisation is WP:SYNTH and even WP:OR: If the source supporting a museum's rank does not label it an 'art museum', it has no place in this list, and that rule goes for any museum, anywhere.  THE PROMENADER  ✎ ✓  08:43, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Considering common sense and rationality. What is the difference between the National Museum of China and National Museum of Korea?--DerechoReguerraz (talk) 09:19, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Perhaps address the point just made?  THE PROMENADER  ✎ ✓  10:20, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Dear DerechoRoguerraz:
 * Your argument is not with me or with other editors, but with the Art Newspaper Review.  Its Visitor Figure Survey published in April 2017 is the primary source for this article, and did not include the National Museum of China. It did include the National Art Museum of China and other Chinese and Asian institutions which are first and foremost art museums.  The source that you cited, the CNN report, is a list of museums in general, including the Air and Space Museum and Natural History museums in Washington.    Can you cite a reliable source that lists art museums specifically and which places the National Museum of China first? Respectfully,SiefkinDR (talk)
 * It's safe to remove the National Museum of China, as it is in no way an 'art museum' in any source I could find, and claiming it is an art museum (absent a source calling it that) is just WP:SYNTH and/or WP:OR.
 * If there are other museums of the same non-art-only type in the list, those should be removed, too... and, IMHO, it might be useful to make the inclusion criteria very clear in the lede (and never mind the 'not including' bits - not needed if the qualifications are clear enough). It might also be helpful if the inclusion criterial is sourced by a first-or-sectondary-source "art museum" definition... that should make things here much simpler. "Top X" articles tend to get... pushy without velvet ropes ; ).  THE PROMENADER  ✎ ✓  20:14, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
 * One way is to restricting the list to a specific definition of "art museum". By the way, who decided that The Art Newspaper should be the main source? And that's contrary to what was actually happening too, because in the actual article, many outside references were used (Victoria Memorial's for example).  And if you are talking about "art museum", considering The Art Newspaper have included the National Folk Museum of Korea on its list (I saw past editions), which is an indication of the absurdities of all this.--DerechoReguerraz (talk) 09:13, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * It also does not look like The Art Newspaper's visitor figure survey is even accessible at this point. Can anyone actually provide a working link to this year's The Art Newspaper visitor figure survey?--DerechoReguerraz (talk) 09:13, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * You do have a point about finding a referenced definition-criteria defining "art museum"; without it, the list will be unstable and the arguments endless.  THE PROMENADER  ✎ ✓  11:35, 10 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't know exactly what the criteria are that the Art Newspaper uses to define an art museum; probably the amount of space devoted to displaying art, compared with other subjects.  or the history of the museum:  was it opened as an art museum, or as something else.  They've been the main source for lists of museum attendance for a number of years, and are often cited in the press.  I've not seen any other source which globally ranks only art museums.

The list is apparently not directly accessible without paying on their site, but the Brazilian government has kindly put up the full list. See the following site. https://www.museus.gov.br/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/20170406-CPAI-Ranking2016Pub-Comp-.pdf

Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 18:44, 10 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I agree entirely with Promenader that we need a clear objective standard or the arguments on what to include will go on endlessly. The question of inclusion of the National Museum of China (and before that the Forbidden City Museum) has been going on already for several years.  We editors can't be the ones who decide what's an art museum;  we need a reliable and authoritative source to cite, and for the moment the Art Newspaper review is it. SiefkinDR (talk) 18:49, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, a clear definition of 'art museum' is required for the lede, even though the source-type is clearly indicated. There's a particularly persistant contributor creating accounts just for the purpose of putting asian national (historical) museums in the list (to show that 'theirs' is bigger? Hard to say why)... most likely because of the ambiguity of the word 'art' and lack of 'modern' in the description (art museums for art itself, not for its role in (national) history). T P  ✎ ✓ 22:11, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

List cleanup?
After its recent pummelling, can someone more familiar with the inclusion criteria (and sources) have a look over the list, please? T P  ✎ ✓ 10:01, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Nix that, I did it myself by transcluding the pre-addition list and location map (with location map modifications). Cheers. T P  ✎ ✓ 17:32, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Large opening map needs updating
The large opening map image doesn't include the Mexico City and Rio museums, which rank in the top 20 on the list. So it either needs an updating or just removal (I'd go for removal as it's a pretty arbitrary cut-off). Maybe an expanded map, to 30 or 40, would serve well. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:13, 11 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I'd vote for removal, as the map doesn't add any new information, and it would have to be very large to be easily readable. SiefkinDR (talk) 19:53, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Did a test edit, and this seems better. Read the edit summary for changes. Maybe wait until more of the pages major editors see the page, but this does seem cleaner and more accessible for viewing and linking. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:07, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
 * and, if you think the test edit looks better, can you do edit runs on the lead to get the sources right. I just read the section above this, and see that there are recent concerns. I came upon this page again, noticed that the large map was soaking up the attention, checked and saw that it was inaccurate, and came to this page to report that and discuss best options. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:27, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

I would agree that the map adds more architecture/noise than info... and the red dots don't even indicate what they... indicate. Or is there some sort of hover function (that hasn't been activated)? T P  ✎ ✓ 17:35, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Forbidden City (Again)
I have removed the Forbidden City once again from the list; it is not included as an art museum in the lists cited. It is not comparable to any of the other museums on the list, which is why it is included, in first place, in the list of most visited monuments and palaces. Please do not continue to edit war on this article. Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 11:24, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Country attribute
Is there a reason country is not included in the table? Seems like could be interesting to sort by country.

Iowajason (talk) 02:38, 23 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Good question. No real reason, just fatigue on my part.  My eyes are getting blurry from looking at small print. Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 08:37, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I have added a country column. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:06, 2 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Dear PrimeHunter: You're doing great work and I agree that i't s good to include the country, but I think right now the layout has too much empty white space on the left while the most important information, the attendance, is pushed far to the right.  What would you think about replacing the country column  with flag icons in the city column, similar to the List of Most-Visited Museums? I think it would be more attractive and easier to read and search by country. If you agree, I'm glad to start doing it or help out. Cordially, 13:10, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I have used regex to change to flag icons. I guess alphabetical sorting by city without country was of limited use. Attendance is still pushed a lot by some long entries for museum and city. Maybe  should be inserted in some of them. By the way, I noticed number 41 in the list disappeared here. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:01, 4 December 2021 (UTC)


 * I plugged the Scottish Museum into number 41 (don't know how it was left out. I probably should have used the UK flag instead of the Scottish flag, but I think people will understand. I think it looks very good now; balanced and colourful. Of course we'll have to do it all again in March, but I doubt if it will change very much. Best regards, SiefkinDR (talk) 16:27, 4 December 2021 (UTC)16:26, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Attendance of Uffizi gallery
What is the source of the 2021 attendance figure for the Uffizi Gallery? The Art Newspaper from March 28 gives a much lower number and ranking. Thanks! SiefkinDR (talk) 11:29, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:08, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Inauguration du Louvre Abou Dhabi par Groupe F 02.jpg

The "No." column does not appear to be functioning properly
The "No." column is not displaying the rank number for the top several museums. Only the data year is displaying (e.g. 2021). Gerntrash (talk) 18:23, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * What a mess. The numbers have been removed from the first 15 museums and years added even though the years are already in another column, and then the numbers pick up at "13" and not "16". Can others take a look, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:42, 16 March 2023 (UTC)


 * This will be fixed (I hope) when the Art Newspaper publishes its full list for 2022 at end of March.SiefkinDR (talk)

SAAM/Renwick/NPG
Should the listing for the Smithsonian's Reynolds Center be split? The Smithsonian stopped releasing data for the Reynolds overall and moved to individual numbers for the National Portrait Gallery and American Art Museum, in addition to numbers for SAAM's Renwick Gallery. Their numbers for the lsat two years have been shifted. Thoughts? 19h00s (talk) 02:34, 25 March 2023 (UTC)