Talk:List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course/Archive 4

List-item notability requirements

 * No question asked here and no reply will be given. Rambling section difficult to understand. Editor asked not to break-up comments and not to set WP:OWN policy.agljones(talk)13:00, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Agljones indicates by that he wishes to add rows for many, many more locations along the course. This would include locations that are not named corners such as "Mike Casey Memorial Shelter" and every other shelter and every mile marker. I believe such a long listing would not be acceptable (for reasons including wp:OR concern), and that list-items should only be named corners that are identified as that in sources. Meaning not including the Grandstand and any other points that are not corners, although they may be landmarks. Per guidelines about lists (wp:LISTN? ), for a topic to be considered notable enough to include in a list, it doesn't have to meet higher standard of notability for topic to be a separate article. But editors can set a list-item standard, and we need some standard, and this should be more resolved before Agljones invests 6-8 weeks developing a new table including such items, only to encounter disagreement afterwards. Agljones, can you comment please? -- do ncr  am  21:28, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


 * The title and intro currently limit list-items to be named corners, among the 264 bends in the course. If "named corner" can be shown to be used commonly for other landmarks, perhaps other landmarks could be added.  Or, the subject of the list might be changed to cover "named corners and other landmarks". Note a small compendium of spectator locations, which might be considered landmarks, is "Spectators gather all around the course at locations which have become part of road-racing history: Bray Hill, Quarter Bridge, Ballacraine, Laurel Bank, Baaregarrow, Ballaugh Bridge, Quarry Bends, Sulby Straight, Ramsey Hairpin, Gooseneck, the Verandah, 32nd Milestone, Windy Corner, Kate's Cottage, Creg-ny-Baa, Hillberry, Signpost, Governor's Bridge."


 * Happily Agljones created Talk:List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course/Alternative version relatively quickly. It has only major named corners as items and all items are okay by me.
 * I expect we agree that more named corners can be added as items. Still open is question whether non-corner landmarks on the course can be added (and require explanation and perhaps an article title change).  Non-corner landmarks include TT Grandstand and Kate's Cottage, Isle of Man.  For those two, I mentioned them and included coordinates already, without giving them rows, so they do show up in the Bing map view.  Misnamed category Category:Roads in the Isle of Man has a lot more, and there are more noted and shown in the corners video tour by WeeemRCB.  But should a lot more landmarks be added?  -- do  ncr  am  19:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Request removed after six days as no volunteer interested in the case..agljones(talk)08:35, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
 * That is a reference to Agljones himself going to the 3rd Party Opinion request page and himself removing the request I had posted! -- do ncr  am  15:37, 12 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Editor Rocknrollmancer identified a list of notable items, within [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ginger Hall, as follows (indenting, wikilinking and [parentheticals] added by me):
 * (begin text)
 * I have now had the opportunity to go through contributions to ascertain that the same editor has nominated for deletion - or intends to nominate - many more TT Course locations than I originally surmised.
 * From the AfD list below, the majority are arguably 'world famous'; the other three are minor and could be retained and merged into preceding and following locations as appropriate, with name-changes and redirects. The standard of the content is often poor.

[world famous ones:]
 * Glen Vine
 * Crosby Cross-Roads
 * Barregarrow
 * Sulby, Isle of Man
 * Sulby Bridge
 * Ginger Hall
 * Kerrowmoar
 * Verandah, Isle of Man
 * Windy Corner [This is about Windy Corner, Isle of Man ]


 * [minor ones:]
 * Gardener's Lane
 * Ballahutchin Hill
 * Glenlough
 * User @Agljones: has striven, along with others, to establish articles which should be retained and improved. Using the catch-all ploy of 'notability' is inappropriate where consecutive historic physical localities are involved.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 23:53, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 * (end copied text)
 * -- do ncr  am  15:37, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Executive Summary
An article for the Snaefell Mountain Course already has been established giving a description of the course. The Executive summary is a duplication of information in this article. There are no citations for the claim that there are “60 corners” and the Executive Summary then contradicts this claim with a descriptions of 264 turns in Gare citation. WP:POISONOUSFRUIT The Isle of Man TT motor-cycle articles are written in British-English and expressions like “turns” and “maker-flags” are not used. WP:MOS Use of British-English These terms are not also used in the descriptions of the Snaefell Mountain Course and no consensus is required by Wikipedia for the use of British-English style. Terms not found in British-English are confusing, contradictory and difficult to understand. The use of a commercial blog-style is unsuitable for Wikipedia and biased towards an inconsistent  small-time frame of the last 10-15 years.WP:NOTBLOG  The only stipulation that Wikipedia has that plain English is used. The use a light informal non-British-English conversational style intermixed with the rambling commercial blog style is again inconsistent with the main Wikipedia use of plain English.WP:MOS Corners and Curves There are no citations for the claim that there are “60 corner” and the Executive Summary then contradicts this claim with a descriptions of 264 turns. The Isle of Man TT motor-cycle articles are written in British-English and expressions like “turns,” “turns at cross-roads,” “straightaway,” “crowning-out,” “left-jink,” “right-jink” and “maker-flags” are not used and are inappropriate to the British-English style for the Isle of Man TT motor-cycle network of articles. The description “…..At the corners, racers must adjust their entering speed, focus on their pre-planned line and lean according to the nature of the turn, and anticipate accelerating, decelerating, turning again, or otherwise handling their vehicles as needed while coming out of the turn, for each one….” is original research WP:ORWP:PROVIT  with no citation WP:V  This small passage is written in a commercial blog style and the term “racer” contradicts the term “vehicle” and it is unclear if it is referring to motor-cycle or cars. Also, the Executive Summary states that “…. Some of the curves, S-bends, turns at crossroads, and other features in the course would not seem significant to car drivers in public traffic, while they are very significant for high-speed racers….” WP:MADEUP is original research WP:OR  with no citation WP:V. For the purposes of the BRD discussion then an explanation is required for the origin of this original research as it is largely irrelevant to the Executive Summary or list article. WP:CITE, WP:N, WP:V, WP:PROVIT The inclusion of “Corner Mileage” is original research WP:OP with no citation.WP:V  The actual length of the course is unknown and  a nominal distance is used for race distances since the 1920’s. The details of the lap records are already to be found on the Isle of Man TT page and Snaefell Mountain Course and it is unclear if it is overall lap record or race record time. Banners The ‘banners’ referred to in the 1967 Currie citation refer to banners on poles displayed across the road  or  secured  to buildings or trees with ropes that were used for the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy Races for automobiles during the period 1905-1922 and  used to mark  timing sections including refuelling areas. For safety reasons, the use of ‘banners’ on poles above the course would have been restricted and not appropriate for motor-cycle racing and cannot be seen in photographs of the Isle of Man TT motor-cycle races between the period 1911-1922 or after this period. The introduction of course maker boards is from 1924 onward and the ‘1921’ date may have been confused with the introduction of race course milestones. Advertising ‘banners’ placed on walls next to the course or on raised marker boards behind walls can be seen in photographs of the Isle of Man TT motor-cycle races between the period 1911-1922. Also during the period 1911-1924, marker boards placed next to the course can be seen in photographs and due to their placement and height it may suggest they were for the  Isle of Man Tourist Trophy Races for automobiles during the period 1905-1922. The problems with plagiarism from journalists and with previous claims from the authors Currie, Deane, Wright, Davison, Harris  etc…. can be found in these BRD discussions.WP:NOTRELIABLE WP:VERIFY From about 2003, the course marker boards are left in position all year road for tourists. The marker boards are placed in specific positions for safety and are not related to that they "....may remind racers what is coming....” WP:NOTRELIABLE WP:VERIFY Bumps and Jumps The description of “….jumps where most motorcycle racers clear off the ground, drivers of cars at slow speeds might not even notice a bump…..” WP:MADEUP is original research WP:OR  with no citation WP:N.  For the purposes of the BRD discussion then an explanation is required for the origin of this research. WP:CITE,  WP:V, WP:PROVIT The Snaefell Mountain Course or Four-Inch course has not been used  for cars or automobile racing since 1922.  There is no comparison between a modern racing motor-cycle in the 1000cc Superbike class and a modern 21st Century European vehicle with softly-sprung suspension.WP:NOTRELIABLE WP:VERIFY  Also,  “wheelie’s can be created by leaning back on the seat, pulling on the handlebars with the use of the clutch and therefore not related to speed, road surface, bumps or engine power. (Cf Ballaugh Bridge.) WP:MADEUP The racing motor-cycles in the 1000cc class which conform to WSB rules can execute ‘power-wheelies’ in every gear up to 160 mph and this irrespective of the road surface or change in gradient. The ‘bumps’ are visible to motor-cycle competitors and also other types of roads vehicles including cars driven in both directions on open roads not closed for racing. The Snaefell Mountain Course is notorious for the poor road surface and ‘bumps’ in the road  which can visibly be seen and also be felt at any speed. This includes the motor-cycle competitors that complain about many sections of the course and also by the drivers of other types of vehicles on public roads in both directions.WP:NOTRELIABLE WP:VERIFY Naming Practices There is no citation that the individual corners are “named and notable” and a) the naming practices are described in the Snaefell Mountain Course article, b) not all the named corners are “notable” and c) the creative issues in the selection of this list items has not been acknowledge with a citation(s) which is required by Wikipedia WP:CITE. Other Wikipedia articles for motor-racing venues do not have this comparison of “Named Practices” section which again duplicates the section in the main Snaefell Mountain course article. The explanation that “….The turns aren't labelled by numbers as done on other short racing circuits…..” contradicts the Executive summary,  the Named Corners section of the main Snaefell Mountain Course article and the Naming Practices section which describes the issue as “….naming of corners elsewhere is usually less salient…..” which contradicts the  “named and notable” statement. With United Kingdom and European practices that corners are named rather than using a numbering system found in the USA. For the purposes of the BRD discussion then an explanation is required for the origin of this research as it is largely irrelevant to the Executive Summary or list article and is original research. WP:OR, WP:CITE, WP:N, WP:V, WP:PROVIT There are no citations for the explanation for most of the claims. The origin of the use of the name “Verandah” is unknown and the name the “The Nook” does not fall into the category of the corner’s “physical shape” and there is no citation for this claim. The Creg-ny-Baa is not named after a pub as the official title is the “Keppel Hotel” and is actually name is ‘Creg-ny-Baa’ is derived from Manx Gaelic place name naming practices which is an obscure reference to post-glacial landscaping in the area. The name Keppel or Keppel Gate is from the nearby mountain name and the term “namesake” is not used in British-English and its use in the article is confusing. The gate existed at the site until the early 1970’s, the gate-post remains at the site along with sheep folds and accompanying “gates.” Road-Traffic The ‘racing season’ in the Isle of Man is from March to October and not ‘several weeks.’   The one-way system on the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road are not “provisions” that  “....allow racers and visiting motorcyclists to learn the corners and practice on the course.” WP:OR WP:V It is illegal  and prohibited  for “racers” and “visiting motorcyclists” to “practice” on the public roads. There are two single-lane carriageway sections with speed restriction on the ‘one-way system’ and a third single-lane carriageway section with traffic lights. The one-way system is also patrolled by unmarked police cars and police motor-cycles with standing police patrols at certain intersections. The overall high traffic densities do not allow for “practice” on this section of the A18 Mountain Road or other parts of the course that have temporary speed restrictions. The one-way system is from Ramsey Hairpin to Creg-ny-Baa. This description is largely irrelevant for the Executive summary as the “one-way” system applies only to the Isle of Man TT and not to the Isle of Man Festival of Motor-Cycling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agljones (talk • contribs) 13:29, 10 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I number my replies for easier reference later.
 * E1: The above complaints seem to be about the lede to the list-article. There is no section in the list-article labelled "Executive Summary".  You don't mean for this to be an executive summary of your complaints here, do you?  This discussion page section seems to be mis-named, it would better be named "Complaints about the lede section" or "Complaints about the introduction".


 * E2: You lose almost all my good will by your obtuse assertion that "60 named corners" (now appearing as "more than 60 named corners, bends, straightaways, and other features" after this edit just now by me, despite my believing it was already clear enough that the list-article covers non-corners, too) is contradicted by a source claiming that there are 264 turns. The list-article currently lists 65 named corners and other features.  Why should I or any other editor read any further?  I would appreciate if you would strike out ( strike out ) or otherwise retract this inane complaint. -- do  ncr  am  14:17, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Some named corners on other courses, and category of named corners
I was referred to the 2014 AFD on Ginger Hall, and notice a comment that happened to be negative about that article but which mentioned some other courses' named corners:"A not particularly notable corner on a road that happens to be used for motor racing a couple of times a year. In comparison to Eau Rouge/Radillon at Spa, and the Corkscrew at Laguna Seca, this corner is not remotely notable... and those corners wouldn't be given their own article. A lot of people who don't follow the big motorsports will still know Eau Rouge and the Corkscrew, but Ginger Hall? No, not remotely. Using primary sources to claim that it is a major vantage point isn't going to help the keep !voters' arguments. User:Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:59, 21 November 2014 (UTC)" They don't necessarily require articles but could be mentioned in appropriate course articles, and there could be redirects to sensible anchors from:
 * Corkscrew or Corkscrew at Laguna Seca or Corkscrew named corner however it should be termed, for the corner at the Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca (a.k.a. Laguna Seca Raceway) and
 * Eau Rouge/Radillon or Eau Rouge/Radillon named corner or Eau Rouge or Radillon or some such for the corner at Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps (a.k.a. Spa race track).

Also I am reminded that some time ago there was a category for named corners that got deleted or converted. (Where was the discussion/decision that put them into misnomer Category: Roads in the Isle of Man, instead?) Subsequently the notability of various named corners has been solidly established so the Category:Named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course (currently a redlink) oughta be re-established. And should there be an additional category termed a bit broader to include other "attractions" or "features" or whatever. Perhaps Category:Named features of the Snaefell Mountain Course? That can include the named corners as a subcategory and also named straightaways and intersections and grandstands and more. In other racecourses there may be named chicanes and other types of features.

Then named corners like the Corkscrew can be put into a parent Category:Named corners of racecourses or the like. Perhaps raise this at WikiProject MotorSport and/or WikiProject Formula One? -- do ncr  am  05:05, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Toward those ends, I set up Category:Named corners of raceways and Category:Named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course, each with a few members to start. Suggestions on wording and otherwise would be welcome. -- do  ncr  am  05:36, 12 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Should the brief phrase be "named turns" or "named features", instead? In the history of Wikipedia coverage of the Snaefell Mountain Course before I was ever involved, "named corners" was used, whether or not the feature was or is more of a gentle curve or even a straightaway.  If there is some agreement that another phrase should be used, perhaps this article should be renamed, and reworded in the lede.  (User:Agljones, do you have an opinion which you could share in this already-opened discussion topic, instead of leaving it to other editors to decipher what your specific opinion on this might be?  This is an invitation to converse differently.) -- do  ncr  am  17:12, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Corner Names.
Star[t]line. Not a corner. No citations for the descriptions of the area behind race spectator area and Grandstand. Race paddock in Nobles Park and previously situated in Greenfield Road. WP:V St. Ninians. Not a notable corner. Both photos breach Wikipedia guidelines on image size and placement. One photo is serious breach of photo guidelines. MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE WP:NOTMIRROR Description of ‘left-jink’ is original research WP:OR and no citations for this “description.”  No citation for traffic lights which is not relevant to list article which duplicates information in another Wikipedia article. Bray Hill The description of “very steep descent” and “with a slight curve” is original research WP:OR with no citation WP:N along with the  comment about “sudden bottoming-out.”   The description of “slightly curving hill” is incorrect and unclear what this description refers too. The description “….''the physics…. causes bikes to unload suspension….after base compression…at 160 mph''” and is the use of a rare and unusual technical terms without a citation.WP:V WP:MADEUP In British-English the term “bikes” is also used for “bicycles” which also use the same course. Quarterbridge Road The description of “…..After the bottom of Bray Hill, a subsequent steep rise (previously known as Brown's Hill) causes modern race machines to wheelie up a stretch now famously known as "Ago's leap" (after 1960s-70s Italian race-ace Giacomo Agostini…..” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V The description of “….after multi side-road junction…” is original research WP:OR  with no citation WP:NWP:MOS. It is unclear if there has been a transcription error, that “the  subsequent steep rise (previously known as Brown's Hill)” after Bray Hill is inaccurate and incorrect.  The ‘local name’ of “Brown’s Hill’ was a section of Alexander Drive  from the junction with Quarterbridge Road, including the  property known as “Woodlands”  as far as  the junction with  Albany Road and  later Devonshire Road in the town of Douglas which is supported with two saliently “factually” citations from the author Broderick and also Slack (“Streets of Douglas Old and New”). The name “Ago’s Leap” is not an official course name and the term “crowning-out” is not used in British-English and the term “road crown” refers to highest point of any road surface for drainage. Description of the changes to the “road surface” in 1978/1979 and the changes in the period 1982-1988 is incorrect and has no relevance to “Ago’s departure” during the  1972 racing season. Along with the descriptions of “wheelies,” “modern machines” and engine power is original research WP:OR with no citation WP:N and not relevant to this list item or the list article. (cf  “modern machines” see photos of Freddie Firth or J.H. ‘Crasher’ White in the 1930’s or Ray Amm in the 1950’s). The FIM Moto GP World Championship and FIM World Superbike Championship both also use the larger capacity engines. The power output of the four-stroke 350cc and 500cc MV Agusta racing motor-cycles has been confused with the much later 1970’s two-stroke 500cc Suzuki machines. The publication by Wright TT Milestones describes Agostini’s riding style as “  flamboyant “  and along with the light-front wheel of the MV Agusta motor-cycles produced wheelies on Quarterbridge Road. (See also photos of Agostini at the ‘Mountain’ Cadwell Park in 1965) The explanation of “steep descent” and “heavy breaking area ”is again is original research WP:OR  with no citation WP:N and blogging in a commercial style not suitable for Wikipedia. The citation from the 1970 Carrick publication does not support use of Selborne Drive as part of start line or use of “side-turning.”  The use of photograph [img] (the technical inspection for the 1911 Isle of Man Junior TT occurred  at the property “Woodlands” in Alexander Drive and not in Selborne Drive. The direction of shadows in the photograph would suggest about 8am and the end of an early morning  practice session.  In the background there is bike number 42 from the Senior class and along with the lack of crowds, pit attendants or officials it again suggests a practice session and not the 1911 Junior TT race which was held during poor weather conditions.  Also,  Brunswick Road and Thorny Road were also used by competitors. The reference to the photo [img] is Original Research WP:OP see talk:pages Windy Corner.  Quarterbridge Description is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Roundabout removed. There is no distinction made between “Quarterbridge” and “Quarter Bridge.” Braddan Bridge. Both photos breach Wikipedia guidelines on image size and placement.MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE  One of these photos not relevant to the list article. Description is Original Research WP:OP and no citations for the description of “….S bend to the left then right'….” and “walking distance of visitors passing through Douglas''.”  Blogging in a commercial style not suitable for Wikipedia.WP:MOS Snugbrough Description is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Incorrect use of photo and description. Ballagarey Corner Description is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V There is no citation for “Ballascarey’’ claim. Wikipedia not a memorial WP:NOT. Use of Wikipedia for promotional issues and inadvertent bias. Glen Vine Description is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Not a corner or bend and the reason for inclusion is unclear. Crosby crossroads. Description is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size.MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE   Not a corner or bend and the reason for inclusion is unclear. The Highlander Description is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size. MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE Not a corner or bend and the reason for inclusion is unclear compared to other entries. Greeba Castle/Greeba Bridge Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size. MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE Duplicates existing articles. Ballacraine Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size. MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE Doran’s Bend Nonsensical use of written English which does not conform with Wikipedia Rules.WP:MOS Laurel Bank Description of a “fast right turn” is Original Research WP:OP and no citation. Black Dub Incorrect description and completely misunderstood explanation. Description of “….Leading on from Laurel Bank, a left then right followed by another long sweeping left-hander into Glen Helen…” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size. MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE Glen Helen Description of “…Leading on from Black Dub, through the sweeping left-hander at Glen Helen and uphill towards Sarah's and Creg Willey's….” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size.MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE   Incorrect nonsensical description not suitable for Wikipedia.WP:MOS Sarah’s Cottage Description of “…Sarah's is a right-turning bend at a small stone cottage on the outside of the bend, half-way up Creg Willey's Hill leading to Lambfell.…” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size. MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE Incorrect nonsensical description not suitable for Wikipedia as the cottage is only approximately one-quarter of the distance on the hillside. 'Creg Whilley’s Description of “….Creg Willey's is the name given to a steep climb after the right-turn at Sarah's, leading to Lambfell. ….”  is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V WP:V Overall incorrect description of hill-climb event. Incorrect nonsensical description not suitable for Wikipedia. Lambfell Description of “….'Right/left curve after Creg Willey's ….” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V The areas of Lambfell and Lambfell Cottage are two separate areas. Incorrect description and misunderstood explanation. Cronk-y-Voddy Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size.MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE  Not a notable bend or corner. The use of citations are selective from the 1975 Deane publication which do not explain independent notability WP:N. Molneaux’s Description of ”…. Right hander at the end of Cronk-y-Voddy straight, close to small side-road junctions Little London Road and Ballabrooie Road…” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size. MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE Not a notable corner or bend. ‘Local consensus’ for inclusion as the Executive Summary has not any given citation for the creative issues for inclusion relative to the other list entries. WP:CITE Corner is some distance from crossroad junction. 11th Milestone The 11th Milestone marker now been moved. Wikipedia not a memorial WP:N. Not a notable bend or corner. McGuinness's Description of “….Left hander before the top of Barregarrow on the A3…” is 'saliently' incorrect. Not a notable corner or bend. ‘Local consensus’ for inclusion as the Executive Summary has not any given citation for the creative issues for inclusion relative to the other list entries. WP:CITE Barregarroo Description of “….''Crossroads before chapel and steep hill. …. A popular vantage point with limited viewing''….” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size.MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE   Not a notable bend or corner. Incorrect, nonsensical description not suitable for Wikipedia. Rhencullen Description of ”…. A series of four curves, name equates to Holly Ridge….” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size. MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE Nonsensical description not suitable for Wikipedia. Birkin’s Bend Description of “….No longer a clear turn due to roadway changes; part of the Rhencullen series of four bends….” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Nonsensical description not suitable for Wikipedia .WP:MOS Dub Cottage Not a notable corner or bend. ‘Local consensus’ for inclusion as the Executive Summary has not any given citation for the creative issues for inclusion relative to the other list entries. WP:CITE Ballaugh Bridge Incorrect description of roads. Ballacry Description of “….''There's a drop in the road here that makes a jump—many racing motor-cycles lift off into the air—said to be the fastest and most dangerous jump on the course. Spectators are not allowed there, but television cameras placed below the jump show it well''….” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Meaningless, incorrect,  nonsensical description of the jump with grammatical errors not suitable for Wikipedia. WP:MOS The TV cameras have a poor view of the jump and “drop in the road” is an incorrect description of Ballacry. Use of commercial website as a citation. WP:NOTADVERTISING Breach of Wikipedia guidelines of use of plain English. WP:MOS WP:NOTBLOG Not a notable corner or bend and the jump next to the 5th Milestone perhaps may be seen as the faster and more dangerous than Ballacry. WP:NOTRELIABLE WP:VERIFY (Other jumps which are more dangerous  before modification include Sulby Bridge, Balig Bridge, combination of 5th Milestone  and Highlander jumps, Ballagarraygyn, St Ninians Cross-roads, Bottom of Bray Hill/Brunswick Road combination and Kate’s Cottage/Creg-ny-Baa section)  ‘Local consensus’ for  inclusion as the Executive Summary has not any given citation for the creative issues for inclusion relative to the other list entries. WP:CITE Quarry Bends Incorrect nonsensical description not suitable for Wikipedia. Sulby Straight Incorrect nonsensical description not suitable for Wikipedia with inclusion of extra unnecessary promotional information about Bruce Anstey.WP:MOS Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size.MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE   Not a notable corner or bend and the reason for inclusion is unclear. Sulby Bridge Description of “….A wide 90-degree right turn at the end of Sulby Straight, exiting flat then with a slight rise climbing towards Ginger Hall….” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Incorrect nonsensical description not suitable for Wikipedia and again with no citations.WP:MOS Ginger Hall Description of “….''Climbing left-hander at the former Ginger Hall Hotel, named after the ginger beer once brewed and served there. A popular vantage point leading to Kerrowmoar'' …..” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Meaningless nonsensical description not suitable for Wikipedia.WP:MOS Kerrowmoar Description of “….Complex of bends through countryside….” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Glentramman Description “….Medium-speed left-hand bend between Glen Duff and Churchtown, scene of a number of racing incidents….. is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V No citation for claims or description. Churchtown Incorrect description of “….''Complex of curves leading into Ramsey outskirts, adjacent to small side-road junctions and Churchtown War Memorial for locals fallen in the First and Second World Wars. Popular spectator vantage poin''t….” and completely misplaced explanation. Original Research WP:OP and no citations. The A3 Castletown to Ramsey Road by-passes the Churchtown area with the B14 Churchtown Road. Non-notable bend or corner not suitable for inclusion. Both photos breach Wikipedia guidelines on image size and placement. Both photos are serious breach of photo guidelines. MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE Schoolhouse Corner. Wikipedia not a memorial WP:N. Breach of Wikipedia guidelines of use of plain English.WP:MOS Parliament Square Incorrect description of “…..A hard right-hander after fierce braking into the central square and multi-road junction in the town of Ramsey, closely followed by a medium left-hander heading out of the square along Queen's Pier Road….” Original Research WP:OP and no citations. No citation for claims or description.WP:V Queens Pier and May Hill Incorrect description of “….Queen's Pier Road at sea level, joining with May Hill starting to climb heading out of the town of Ramsey towards Cruickshank's Corner….” This area is above sea-level and formally a private road and part of the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road as defined by the Road Closing order under the 1982 Road Races Act for the Isle of Man. Original Research WP:OP and no citations. Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size. MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE ‘Local consensus’ for  inclusion as the Executive Summary has not any given citation for the creative issues for inclusion relative to the other list entries. WP:CITE Cruickshanks Corner Incorrect description of “….Right curve on A18 Queen's Pier Road at multi-junction where A18 becomes May Hill, slightly uphill leading out of the residential area on the outskirts of Ramsey….”  For the purposes of the BRD discussion then an explanation is required for the origin of this research. WP:CITE, WP:V, WP:PROVIT Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size.MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE Whitegates Description of “…..Whitegates, a left-hander heading out of the town of Ramsey towards Stella Maris….” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size.MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE  Not a notable corner or bend. ‘Local consensus’ for inclusion as the Executive Summary has not any given citation for the creative issues for inclusion relative to the other list entries. WP:CITE The inclusion of the description of A18 May Hill / Hughenden Terrace is unclear (?) Stella Maris Description of “…..Sweeping right-curve, climbing to the very outskirts of the Ramsey settlement, closely preceding the Hairpin….” is Original Research WP:OP and  citation does not give independent notability WP:n WP:V. Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size.MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE Not a notable corner or bend. ‘Local consensus’ for inclusion as the Executive Summary has not any given citation for the creative issues for inclusion relative to the other list entries. WP:CITE The use of term “settlement” not used in British-English in this context.WP:MOS Ramsey Hairpin Description of “….Hairpin Curve at Ballacowle Glen in the outskirts of the town of Ramsey….” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V The Ramsey Hairpin is outside of the Ramsey Town boundary. Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size.MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE The use of nonsensical term “hairpin curve” not used in British-English in this context. Waterworks Description of “….Two right-handers after Ramsey Hairpin whose name derives from the nearby Ballure Reservoir….” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:N The ‘Waterworks Corner’  is described for the purposes of independent notability WP:N as only  one corner which overlooks the Ballure Reservoir. There are two or three right-hand bends above the Ramsey Hairpin before reaching the bend at the single ‘Waterworks Corner.’ The citation incorrectly refers to two bends at the  single ‘Waterworks Corner.’  The 2006 Google maps show a sign for the ‘Waterworks’  showing a single bend placed at the site of the entrance to nearby Glen public footpath. This sign has been replaced with the new style sign and for safety placed in another position and the revised sign reflects this overall change. (cf Old and New Quarry Bends sign) The other “bend” is adjacent to  the entrance to the main public footpath and this ‘bend’ was modified in the early 1990’s after a large  landslip to the cliff-face to include a small retaining wall which  diverted public road traffic travelling in a north-bound direction. The area above the 26th Milestone near to Guthrie’s Memorial was also previously referred  to as the “Waterworks” or the “Waterworks Bridge” which was also “two bends.”  The Isle of Man has a number of places called the ‘Waterworks’  including the former site at Greenfield Road, Douglas and also Sulby Reservoir. The term Waterworks can be misunderstood for the nearby Ballure Reservoir.  Tower Bends Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size. Incorrect photo which breaches Wikipedia rules of image placement and size. MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE Gooseneck Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size. MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE Wikipedia not a memorial WP:NOT and an attempt to bypass this rule. Citation does not give independent notability WP:N WP:V. Verandah Description of “….''Series of four bends, a relatively flat section at a height of 1300 feet (396 metres) at 30 miles around the circuit, before climb resumes at The Bungalow. Road follows contour of slope down from mount Snaefell to the right, with long drop-off to the left, and one irregular corner''…..” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Wikipedia not a memorial WP:N and incorrect description with Black Hut confsused with Verandah. Duplicating information in linked article. Incorrect and nonsensical description not suitable for Wikipedia.WP:MOS Breach of Wikipedia guidelines of use of plain English and use of informal speech not used in Wikipedia or in British-English style. Historical race information to be moved to relevant year article. The Stonebreakers Hut confused with the Verendah and is a series of four bends. Incorrect height above sea level and incorrect description of “mount Snaefell.” Coordinates given show a section of  grass bank on hillside on  Google Maps with description of “Conor Cummins Crash Isle of Man TT 2010.”   Issues of bias WP:Bias and promotional issues.WP:NOV Bungalow Description of “….'''Left then right corners, where course crosses tramway …..Vantage point including tramway station, cafe, and a pedestrian bridge over the course. Dominated by Snaefell (elevation of 621m (2036 feet)) and other summit''….” is Original Research WP:OP and with no citations. Duplicates already pre-existing Wikipedia articles. Hailwood’s Height Incorrect and confusing description of road section. Not a notable bend or corner. Brandywell Description of “….A left-curve…..” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Incorrect description of “…. Its name originates from a nearby water-well that was used by local shepherds to brand and sort flocks of mountain sheep….”    as the Brandywell area  is situated at ‘Brandywell Cottage’ road junction with the Ballaugh Glen Road and the well on the north-west facing slope  of Injerbreck Hill. See BRD discussion at article.  Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size.MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE 32nd Milestone Description of “….''Named as one of the more famous vantage points. …. is a sweeping series of three sharp left hand bends on the high speed descent from Brandywell to the infamous right-hander at Windy Corner. The race Marshals' stone shelter is on the left side of the course at the centre of the complex. This location has outstanding views across the mountain from Snaefell summit down to Douglas harbour''….” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V List entry subject to article padding. Partial confused description of 32nd Milestone post with nearby three bends and marshals shelter. It is not possible to see either the town of Douglas, Douglas Bay or Douglas harbour from the 32nd Milestone. There is no citation that the “….Windy Corner is infamous….” Unclear that Geoff Duke is an Isle of Man TT winner and a FIM World Motor-Cycle Champion. The incorrect use of the use of the term ‘Manx’ as a Demonym to describe Geoff Duke as he was born in the United Kingdom and not the Isle of Man. The Isle of Man Government described a Manxman or (Manx- women) as being born in the Isle of Man without parents or grand-parents that were born in the United Kingdom. From this description, Geoff Duke is not a ‘Manxman’ or is not ‘Manx.’ Windy Corner Description of “….''Right hander in open area. Prevailing wind, often strong and sometimes gusty, is channeled up a gully on the left (east)''….” is incorrect information and is Original Research WP:OP and with no citations. Use of cherry-picking of citations WP:CHERRYPICKING with a whimsical and flippant nature which give “false” information not permitted by Wikipedia.WP:NOTRELIABLE WP:VERIFY  Prevailing wind in the UK is from the south-west direction and the Windy Corner sheltered from the east by nearby mountains. ‘Local consensus’ for inclusion of this item for a ‘non-notable bend’ as the Executive Summary has not any given citation for the creative issues for inclusion relative to the other list entries. WP:CITE Keppel Gate Description “….''A bend to the left. Early on, the course along here was "little more than a cart and horse track… with gates between farm fields. Keppel Gate was a gate across the road to restrict sheep''." of the bend/corner is incorrect and is Original Research WP:OP and with no citations WP:N WP:V. The area of Keppel Gate was a stone mountain track rather than "little more than a cart and horse track.”  The area is public common land, previously entrance to UK Crown ‘mountain lands,’ not agricultural fields and previously an area of peat bog and marshy ground.  Other (unclear) citations suggest a building of a new road in middle of the Nineteenth century which circumvented the previous  “cart and horse track” from Creg-ny-Baa to the Windy Corner that bypassed “Keppel Gate.”  Breach of Wikipedia guidelines of use of plain English.WP:MOS List entry subject to article padding and the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road had a number of gates and some of them were removed for racing.  The  description of the Keppel Gate Cottage or ‘Kate’s Cottage’ as ‘Kate’s House ’ under Wikipedia rules is “false” and not permitted.   Originally a site of nearby  mountain Sheppard’s hut approximately 75 meters  south-east of the current buildings of  ‘Kate’s Cottage’ located on the 1870 Ordnance Survey. Creg-ny-Baa Description “….Right-turn corner, at the Keppel Hotel and its Creg-ny-Baa pub….” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Incorrect desciption of Keppel Hotel “…and its Creg-ny-Baa pub…” List entry subject to article padding. Written in a commercial blogging style not suitable for Wikipedia with commercial information. Breach of Wikipedia guidelines of use of plain English. Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size.MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE The description of “….One of the most photographed views on the course is from here…” is speculative as area in front of the Keppel Hotel/Creg-ny-Baa is an restricted area for spectators. Gob-ny-Geay Description of “….''Right-jink in a very fast downhill straight at the 35th Milestone…. halfway between the corners at Creg and Brandish''” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V The 35th milestone is actually closer to Brandish than Creg-ny-Baa and not “halfway.”  Incorrect description of “….can be spelt differently, e.g., Gob-y-Geay, Gob-na-Geay, Gobnageay….” Misunderstanding of  Manx Gaelic place names that uses English rhetorical grammatical system for prepositional usage when transposed to British-English  rather than the more widely used modern Irish Gaelic lexicon grammar system adopted by other Gaelic languages. Brandish Description “….A18 much improved in recent years….” is nonsensical and of little encyclopedic value as it is unclear to what this statement actually refers to the A18 (?) or Brandish Corner. For the purposes of the BRD discussion then an explanation is required for the origin of this research. WP:CITE, WP:V, WP:PROVIT  The description of “….Named after Walter Brandish who crashed, breaking a leg, in the right-hand gutter here while trying to pass a competitor….” is Original Research WP:OP and no citation. WP:V  The use of a ‘local consensus’ for  inclusion of this item for a ‘non-notable bend’ as the Executive Summary has not any given citation for the creative issues for inclusion relative to the other list entries. WP:CITE Hillberry Description of “….''The run downhill from Brandish bottoms-out at Hillberry, before heading steeply uphill towards Cronk-ny-Mona…..” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size.MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE Cronk-ny-Mona Description of “….''A steep hill following on from Hillberry topping out with sweeping left hand bend. The hill interrupts the descent from Snaefell Mountain, which resumes at the next vantage point, the right turn at Signpost Corner starting the run down into the outskirts of Douglas town''…..” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Incorrect description, the boundary for Douglas Town has been moved and now intersects the road juction at Cronk-ny-Mona. Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size. The use of a ‘local consensus’ for inclusion of this item for a ‘non-notable bend’ as the Executive Summary has not any given citation for the creative issues for inclusion relative to the other list entries. WP:CITE Breach of Wikipedia guidelines of use of plain English.WP:MOS Signpost Corner Description is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V  Signal station now moved to near Cronk-ny-Mona. Incorrect description of A18 Hillberry Road, B11 Hillberry Road. Not the sheading boundary and confusion with parish boundary as the boundary between Douglas town and Onchan village has been moved. Bedstead Corner Description of “….''from Signpost, the left-hander at Bedstead…. and the general area between Signpost Corner and Governor's Bridge was rural through agricultural countryside, developed c. 1990–2015 into large-scale housing/support infrastructure on either side with a recent pedestrian footbridge across, and much improvement to the road/course surface''…” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size.MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE The use of a ‘local consensus’ for  inclusion of this item for a ‘non-notable bend’ as the Executive Summary has not any given citation for the creative issues for inclusion relative to the other list entries. WP:CITE Incorrect description of Old Bemahague Road. Written in a commercial blogging style not suitable for Wikipedia.WP:MOS The historical issues in respect the origin of the name and use have been ignored and also the 1953/54 road improvements and restructuring. The Nook Description”…..'' a right-turn at a small side-junction leads into Old Bemahague Road, followed by a slight-left and short straight…. Section is racetrack-only avoiding 'new' improved road and junction with modern traffic islands''….. that the race course still runs through, although the alignment of the modern A18 has been shifted away….” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size.MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE  The use of a ‘local consensus’ for  inclusion of this item for a ‘non-notable bend’ as the Executive Summary has not any given citation for the creative issues for inclusion relative to the other list entries. WP:CITE Incorrect description of Old Bemahague Road. Written in a commercial blogging style not suitable for Wikipedia with little or no encyclopedic value. Breach of Wikipedia guidelines of use of plain English.WP:MOS Governor’s Bridge/ Dip Description "....On Old Bemahague Road…. a hard right-turn at hairpin bend with road junction and sudden elevation-drop into Governor's Dip, followed by a left before exiting with a right from a small side-junction….."Governor's Bridge", a road junction, hairpin bend and bridge over a stream, on a stretch of the original historic course....Traditionally damp and slippery road surface due to overhead tree canopy and little air movement in the dip….” is Original Research WP:OP and no citations. WP:V  Breach of Wikipedia rules of image placement and size. The use of a ‘local consensus’ for  inclusion of this item for a ‘non-notable bend’ as the Executive Summary has not any given citation for the creative issues for inclusion relative to the other list entries. WP:CITE  Incorrect description of Old Bemahague Road/A2 Road, not part of the “original historic course” as only used from 1920. Written in a commercial blogging style not suitable for Wikipedia and description has been confused with the previous section for the Nook.WP:MOS WP:NOTBLOG. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agljones (talk • contribs) 13:29, 10 September 2016 (UTC)


 * There are some general complaints in this section and some specific to individual items. AGLJONES, I would rather not cut up your comments in this section if you do not wish that, but it is unwieldy to reply down here below to each corner-specific complaint above.  Do you mind if I and others insert replies at each corner item above?
 * In general, I agree that use of British English would be fine, and if there are extremely specific suggestions which would replace a quote of American-style wording by a suggested quote of revised wording, I would want to agree. However, in the past I recall that some of your similar complaints turned out to be cases when I had repeated the wording you yourself had used in a linked article.  We could address specific suggestions at corner items above. (Do you mind if your complaints above get cut up, in order to do that?) -- do  ncr  am  14:30, 10 September 2016 (UTC)


 * This discussion section's title "Corner names" seems off. There is no complaint about the names of all of these items, is there?
 * If we don't cut up the discussion above, I guess we could discuss the complaints one by one down here, although I can't imagine ever finishing. So, okay, about the Startline: Yes, the startline is not a corner.  I have revised the lede further to make it clearer that this is a list of features including non-corners.  The complaint "No citations for the descriptions of the area behind race spectator area and Grandstand" and wp:V seems to be complaining about the following phrase (which is not followed by a footnote): "Concourse with pre-race assembly area, start/finishline, spectator seating, scoreboard, race control, pitlane, re-fuelling, scrutineering, trophy presentation, retailing, hospitality, exhibitions."  To be interpreted as sentence "There is a concourse with..."  Is there anything factually wrong about the phrase/sentence?  If there is nothing wrong and there is nothing controversial, a footnote does not have to be used.  Is that not a fair summary of the linked article?  There should be more footnotes there, do you question the text of the article?  Do you have an alternative preferred wording (with or without a source)?   About the complaint "Race paddock in Nobles Park and previously situated in Greenfield Road", that is not a sentence, and I don't know how to make it into a sentence, and I don't get what you are driving at.  Please explain. -- do  ncr  am  06:06, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Startline Wikipedia is very clear that citations have to be provided and the information to be verifiable WP:V and its incorrect to state that “…..nothing wrong and there is nothing controversial, a footnote does not have to be used.”  The description for the article row for the Startline does not accurately reflect the linked article which also does not have any citations for the same description. The article row is a summary of the content for the term “concourse” used in the linked article. The incorrect description of two photographs in the linked article TT Grandstand which contain the term “concourse” is ‘saliently’  Original Research WP:OP without a citation WP:V and not permitted by Wikipedia. The discussion by different editors at the talk:page for the Windy Corner confirm that this type of analysis in respect to the two photographs in the linked article confirms that the use of the term “concourse” in the accompanying text is Original Research WP:OP and insufficient to define independent notability WP:N for the article in this context of 'non-notable' bend. I have not been able to find a citation for the term “Concourse” used in the linked article. The 2016 Isle of Man TT guide states “TT Course” and not “Snaefell Mountain Course” and displays “Startline,” “Grid” and “Race Paddock” numbered A to D....etc which is not an accurate statement of “…Concourse with pre-race assembly area, start/finishline….” or    “…. concourse with parc ferme to extreme right….. pre-race marshaling area for machines to extreme left, concourse with grandstand to left…” as described incorrectly in the linked article. These terms cannot be used legitimately for the article row as they refer to the Isle of Man TT and the “TT Course” and not “Snaefell Mountain Course” in the article. The term Concourse is not used in British-English in this context and may also be a reference to a Concours d'Elegance used at different types of sporting-events. The requirement for the sentence that it is compulsory that it possesses a verb and the word “situated” fulfils this requirement. The BRD discussion highlights problems with the article rows and linked articles. In this case, due to the incorrect Original Research WP:OP it is not possible to develop the linked article to include current or historical information as it would contradict / duplicate / summarise the article row. Due to the continued emphasis as a ‘non-notable’ “name of a curve of the Snaefells Mountain Course,” the linked article will be subjected to the  AfD process and the article be  deleted. Any editor that registered an objection to the AfD process is not in position to make complaints about the length of the sections of the BRD discussions and should be seen in the context as gaming the system, WP:GAME acting unilaterally and article ownership WP:OWN. agljones(talk)11:37, 15 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Is this argument for the sake of argument? I will respond to 2 elements out of the above:
 * 1) The use of the term "concourse" in the summary about "Startline" and, with wikilinked concourse, in the linked article is now objected to. Okay, I went to the Concourse article and expanded its lede in this edit in order to clarify that the term "concourse" is a general term about a place where crowds gather.  As demonstrated in Merriam-Webster's dictionary definition, there is no requirement that there be multiple notable pathways/roadways/railroad tracks converging.  The usage of the term "concourse" is fine.  Perhaps my edit at concourse is unnecessary and will be reverted.  This is silly.
 * 2) I asked above what was meant by the non-sentence "Race paddock in Nobles Park and previously situated in Greenfield Road". The reply is an assertion that the non-sentence is a sentence.  How silly.  That doesn't really help us in communicating, because I still don't get what the string of words was intended to convey, at all.  This is silly.
 * All I get from this is that an editor has general antipathy towards this list-article. I have understood this already.  This doesn't need to be developed a lot more. -- do  ncr  am  19:44, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The original article for the TT Grandstand was created by the User:Mauls and this editor created a number of similar related articles before quickly abandoning them which caused confusion amongst editors.  The ‘lede’ sentence for the article TT Grandstand has no citation for independent notability WP:N and does not satisfy the lede paragraph structure requirements.WP:MOS, WP:LEDE.  The Snelling citation does not support independent nobility of the linked article  WP:N or the structure of the 'lede' sentence. The Kniverton citation may partly support the issue of independent notability for the linked article, but also not support the structure of the 'lede' sentence and no objection is made to this author or citation when compared to this edit for another linked article  (?) WP:MOS


 * As I have previously stated I have not been able to find a citation for the term for the term “Concourse” used in the linked article. The source used as a citation does not use this term and also states “TT Course” and not “Snaefell Mountain Course.”  WP:V, WP:MODERNPLACENAME  The description used in the linked article is Original Research WP:OP relative to the photographs.   The 2016 Isle of Man TT Guide  refers to Race Paddock A, the Parc fermé  area and “the pit lane.” There  area in front of the TT Grandstand  is “the  pit-lane, ” the pit-lane return road and a small  area in front of the west-side of  TT Grandstand building which is a restricted area. The layout of the new 1986 TT Grandstand had to be amended after the first race meeting after safety concerns in respect to the restricted areas and “the pit-lane” and these small alterations may or may not give the impression of a “Concourse.” There is also "the pit-lane" counter and road-side ARMCO guard-rail which is restricted to  pit-attendants during racing.   There is no citation for use of the term “concourse” or “...an open space or hall (as in a railway terminal) where crowds gather....” as the areas described in the citation in the linked article or the 2016 Isle of Man TT guide are either paddock areas or subject to Parc fermé  regulations. From the citation in the main TT Grandstand article it is not possible to determine  the small restricted area in front the TT Grandstand from the Parc fermé  area described as a “concourse”  or the position of the Assembly area WP:V which prior to the 1986 TT Grandstand was historically held in different areas.


 * The the article rows titled “Glencrutchery Road” and “Deceleration lane and Return road” are  duplication's of the "startline" article row or have no citations which cannot be verified, are inaccurate and contradict the purpose of the TT Grandstand  linked article. WP:V Other historic issues (Greenfield Road, Assembly Area, Winners enclosure,  etc, etc...) should be merged back to the main article and the double-plus twin-track approach to editing should be abandoned as it 'saliently' does not allow the inclusion of new information or the development of the Isle of Man TT motor-cycle network of articles. agljones(talk)21:28, 9 December 2016 (UTC)