Talk:List of national anthems/Archive 2

Canada
It's a little embarrassing that while all other anthems that I've sampled are represented by symphony orchestras the Canadian anthem is being played by an untalented 5-year-old with a Casio keyboard. I know it's not the nicest of anthems (relax, I'm Canadian), but holy cow! If somebody could change the sample for Canada's anthem that would be nice. I wish I could do more, but bringing it to your attention is a start. Thanks.
 * Most of the recordings are from the US Navy Band. Can make the change here. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 13:17, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.68.149.28 (talk) 16:51, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that. When I added the sounds, I took the files from articles such as the country or the national anthem page (in this case from the infobox of O Canada). In this instance I should've been more careful to ensure that the featured sound was used instead. —WFC— 17:38, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Not a big problem. For some countries, there is only the Navy Band recording for their anthem. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 19:28, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Direct Linking of Sound Files
Looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:LINKVIO#Linking_to_copyrighted_works I think we need to start actually uploading recordings of linked to anthems or making our own recordings if the copyright doesn't exist for the anthems. I don't feel comfortable doing a direct link to the files. Thoughts? User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 00:44, 21 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I thought I'd already reverted these edits, which removed quite a few of the existing uploaded files. Will do so now.  There may be a little collateral damage; I am keeping the two significant edits that I have noticed (switching from Libya-Gaddafi to Libya-NTC and removing the The from March of the Volunteers). Pfainuk talk 17:29, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You got them all. With Libya, the NTC released a draft constitution that made no mention of an anthem at all, except that it is going to be decided by future laws. The NTC was recognized at the UN, but I still believe we should list both anthems and not just one. China, give me some time. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 19:40, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Sound templates look different in 1.18
Since the recent update to the software, the templates now include the information icon. I'm guessing it's compulsory, but is there any way to at least get and the start of the song title on the same line? Doesn't look particularly attractive at the moment. —WFC— 13:41, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

A trivial matter of consistency
I've begun a discussion at the country infobox template talk page on the matter of consistency between list and country entries. --Pete (talk) 19:13, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Countries with multiple national anthems
I noticed the list currently does not contain both entries for countries with multiple anthems. Should the second anthem just be added as a new entry?

Jepaan (talk) 12:30, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Non-sovereign countries
It would be useful to have a third table of anthems of non-sovereign countries. These are played at major sporting events such as the Olympic Games (Puerto Rico), Paralympics (Faroe Islands), Commonwealth Games (Gibraltar, Wales, Jersey, Scotland) and international football or rugby matches (Scotland, Faroe Islands, Wales). However, not all are official. Skinsmoke (talk) 15:35, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anthems_of_non-sovereign_countries,_regions_and_territories User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 03:59, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Kosovo
Since this is the English wiki, shouldn't Kosovo be under recognized states? I have noted some inconsistency in these kinds of lists.Jaccovanderveen (talk) 19:50, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Please do not call Taiwan, a 'territory'
It may not have recognition by the UN, but Taiwan is notable enough to be a country in its own right. Everyone would know that --TheChampionMan1234 11:30, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

nations v nation states
Daicaregos, please leave this as "nation states": it's the correct terminology, especially for a list that contains not nations, but nation states. If you have a dictionary of political science I suggest you look up the difference and see which can be considered more applicable in this case. As has been pointed out to you elsewhere, there is a separate list for the anthems of nations, as opposed to this list of nation states. - SchroCat (talk) 10:55, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * If this is, as you say, a list of nation states, that should be its title. It is misleading to say otherwise. Daicaregos (talk) 11:05, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Not at all: the common name for such pieces of music is "national anthem", despite the name being slightly misleading. What we can do, is to ensure that the opening line to the list is precise, which is why it needs to relate to nation states, not nations. - SchroCat (talk) 11:09, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is misleading. This list purports to be a list of national anthems. As such, it should include all verifiable national anthems. If it is a List of nation-state anthems, that should be the list's title. I would support either changing the page name, or including all verifiable national anthems. As it stands, the list is not comprehensive and, as such, fails the featured list criteria. Daicaregos (talk) 11:35, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * No, it doesn't fail the criteria at all. As is rather evident from the text, this is a list of anthems for nation states (although you won't find the term "nation-state anthems" in many places, because the WP:COMMONNAME, (which we use for naming purposes) is "national anthem". This, therefore is not a list of ALL national anthems (which is why we have the second list).
 * I'll also point out that this thread is not about the title per se, but about the correct use of the term "nation state" in the opening line. What, exactly, do you have against the correct use of this term? - SchroCat (talk) 11:47, 22 May 2014 (UTC) - SchroCat (talk) 11:47, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Nonsense. The reason you won't find the term "nation-state anthems" in many places (six Google results) is not because its common name is national anthem, but because “national anthem” means “A song or hymn adopted by a nation to express patriotism or national identity, and sung or played on official occasions.” (as defined by the Oxford English Dictionary). Not nation-state – nation. All verifiable national anthems should be included on a List of national anthems, per WP:5, specifically WP:NPOV. Daicaregos (talk) 12:14, 22 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Nonsense. This page makes it very clear what the contents of the lists are: firstly the anthems of United Nations member states, and the anthems of sovereign states which are not UN members in the second. There is a separate page for non-sovereign and other anthems. Again, I'll point out that this thread is about the use of the term nation or nation state in the opening line: I'll ask you for a second time, what, exactly, do you have against the correct use of the term nation state in the opening line? If not, then I'll put it back to the more correct term. - SchroCat (talk) 12:35, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * What is "nonsense"? The OED's definition of national anthem, or this list's interpretation? The content of this list is not 'very clear'. It purports to be a list of national anthems. That much is 'very clear' from its title, but it lists only some of them. Inserting nation-state instead of nation does not improve its clarity. The list should either be re-named, or it should contain a comprehensive list of national anthems. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned comment added by Example (talk • contribs) ]] (talk) 13:06, 22 May 2014 (UTC)


 * What is nonsense is your somewhat inflexible attitude here. The anthems of nation states (as well as nations) are called "national anthems". This page is a list of anthems of sovereign states (also known sa nation states. The text makes this abundantly clear and I've added a hatnote to make this even more clear for people, including a link to the non-sovereign anthems. If you could see your way to putting the correct term "nation-state" in the opening line, it becomes even more apparent to anyone, except those that wish to be misled as to the content, for whatever reason that may be. - SchroCat (talk) 13:12, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm pleased to see you do not consider the OED's definition of national anthem to be nonsense. Nevertheles, I remain concerned that this page has chosen to define national anthem otherwise. I have sought to highlight my concerns here, but these have not been addressed. Consequently, I shall seek to improve the article in the following thread. Daicaregos (talk) 14:58, 22 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I have put back "nation state" as the correct terminology: please do not revert this again (BRD is a justification for imposing your POV onto the page, or for tendentious editing). As to your new thread below, I suggest you look at the second list, which will show the national anthems of non-sovereign states, including wales. - SchroCat (talk) 14:51, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Current consensus is 'nation'. You changed the long-standing text, it was reverted. Tendentious would be to revert to your change from the long-standing text to your preferred version, without acheiving a consensus on the talk page first. Which you do not have. I have reverted. Daicaregos (talk) 15:13, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course you have: I expected nothing else. - SchroCat (talk) 15:17, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Comprehensive list?
The Oxford English Dictionary defines 'national anthem' as: “A song or hymn adopted by a nation to express patriotism or national identity, and sung or played on official occasions.” This list purports to be a list of national anthems. As such, it should include all verifiable national anthems. If it is a 'List of nation-state anthems' or a 'List of sovereign-state anthems', that should be the list's title. As it stands, the list is not comprehensive and, as such fails the featured list criteria. Specifically, the Welsh national anthem, Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau, is omitted from this list. Numerous reliable sources define Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau as the Welsh national anthem, including: national and local government: the Welsh Government (wales.com), City and County of Swansea; universites: Brunel University, Aberystwyth University, Cardiff University; media: BBC, The Grauniad, Walesonline, Daily Telegraph, The Daily Mail; published works: Oxford Treasury of Sayings and Quotations, by Sion Jobbins, Will Britain Survive Beyond 2020?, David Melding and, The National Library of Wales. I would support either changing the page name, or including Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau, the national anthem of Wales. But the list cannot continue with such a misleading title. Daicaregos (talk) 14:36, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Oppose. The naming is fine, especially with the hatnote pointing people to the secondary list of anthems of non-sovereign states, which includes the anthem of Wales. The text makes it clear what the composition of the lists is. - SchroCat (talk) 14:55, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I noticed you added the hatnote. However, there is no reason (that would be in accordance with WP:NPOV) to exclude a verified national anthem from a list of national anthems. Daicaregos (talk) 18:51, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * As per the string above: I have outlined my thoughts on this and see little point in repeating it ad nauseum. Suffice to say there is nothing NPOV here apart from your desire to crowbar in an anthem that should not be here. - SchroCat (talk) 19:15, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I'd note - as I have several times to Daicaregos in the past - that there is nothing in policy that requires that the list title define the contents of the list (in fact, as e.g. WP:LISTNAME makes clear, the opposite is true).  The proposal is strongly biased and if followed through would almost certainly lead to the list being de-featured (see WP:WIAFL, it would fail criteria 2, 3a and 3b). Kahastok talk 19:29, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * You have explained that the content of the list can exclude the Welsh national anthem. But not explained why anyone would want to exclude a national anthem from a list of national anthems. Surely the inclusion criteria could be written to include it. Daicaregos (talk) 07:35, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Why would we do that? There are currently two lists: this one, for sovereign nations/nation states, and a separate list for non-sovereign nations. With such clearly defined criteria, why would we mix the two, just so the Welsh anthem can be crowbarred in? It would certainly go against the standing consensus that the two lists do their respective jobs perfectly well. - SchroCat (talk) 08:21, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
 * The list to which you refer is a list of anthems. As can be seen from the Oxford English Dictionary definition of 'national anthem', a nation's sovereign status is not relevant, and should not be part of the arbitrary criteria used here. Reliable sources across the world define Hen Wlad fy Nhadau as a national anthem, which any reasonable person would expect to find on a list of national anthems. Daicaregos (talk) 10:41, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Again, this is a clearly defined list of anthems for sovereign nations/nation states: there is nothing arbitrary about that. Does Wales fall into the category of sovereign nations/nation states? If it doesn't, then the Welsh anthem (along with Northern Irish, Scottish and English anthems) is correctly placed on the list of anthems from non-sovereign nations. Endlessly repeating "it should be here", isn't going to change the long-standing consensus of having two lists, and isn't convincing anyone that there is a good reason for it. - SchroCat (talk) 10:51, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I reiterate the point because my concerns have not been addressed. At some stage, an editor decided that a list of national anthems should be restricted to sovereign states. Clearly, such a restriction excludes national anthems from non-sovereign nations, which means the article title does not reflect its content. If this is “a list of anthems for sovereign nations/nation states”, that should be its title. Daicaregos (talk) 07:56, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

In response to the name, you've already had WP:LISTNAME pointed out to you, so you know the title is MoS compliant (in other words your concern has been addressed). There is a hat note to explain, clarify and point to the non-sovereign anthems, which is standard practice. You have not put forward any arguments that are likely to overturn the long-standing consensus of having two lists. The only thing that is missing to explain the situation further, is to change "nation" to the more correct "nation-state". For some reason you deny allowing that small clarification. Why is that, and why the focus only on the inclusion of the Welsh anthem? - SchroCat (talk) 08:08, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I do not object to having two lists. For example: list one, List of national anthems of sovereign states; list two, List of anthems of non-sovereign countries, regions and territories. However, I am concerned that this list's title is misleading. Any reasonable person seeing List of national anthems (especially a Featured list) would expect is to list all known national anthems.
 * Re: nation-state in the Lead – 1. 'nation' reflects the article title; 2. The opening sentence "Most nations have anthems, ... " is correct as it stands. "Nation-state" adds nothing, and there is no consensus to change it.
 * Re: the focus only on the inclusion of the Welsh national anthem – Hen Wlad fy Nhadau is the only national anthem I am aware of, verified by reliable sources, to be missing from this list. England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, which you mentioned previously, do not have national anthems.
 * I note you refer to “the Welsh anthem”. Do you not consider Hen Wlad fy Nhadau to be the Welsh national anthem? Daicaregos (talk) 09:00, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
 * "Most nations have anthems, ... " is correct as it stands" is true, but misleading given the article content. "Most nation-states have anthems" is equally correct, and isn't misleading given the context of the article. "nation' reflects the article title": there is nothing in the MoS that states the opening line has to slavishly follow the title, especially given the context of WP:LISTNAME. "there is no consensus to change it": you are objecting: one editor is objecting to a small technical correction. Well done for that. There are others - see the second list for details, where the Welsh anthem is also present. Perhaps, instead of this incredibly tendentious and increasingly disruptive stance you are striking, you could focus on bringing the Welsh anthem article up to FA status for it's moment of glory on the front page? It's a mess at the moment and fails several MoS criteria as it stands, but some constructive editing there would be better than this rather bizarre crusade. - SchroCat (talk) 09:58, 24 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Can we confirm that most nations - as opposed to nation-states - have anthems? I for one would like to see a source for the claim, particularly given that I do not believe there is a definitive list of "nations" (as opposed to nation-states).  Change it to "nation-state" and there is no problem (the point is self-evident from the list).  And I agree with the other reasons you give for preferring "nation-state". Kahastok talk 10:16, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Better to say sovereign states or sovereign states than to have a pipe (nation-states) in the intro.
 * I note you say there are others on the second list. Did you mean other national anthems? If so, they surely belong on (what purports to be) a list of national anthems. Although if the page were called 'List of national anthems of sovereign states' they would not.
 * Btw, I am not sure Inno e Marcia Pontificale is Vatican City's national anthem? Its page states it is not. Daicaregos (talk) 12:59, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
 * You are still barking against a consensus without providing any fundamental reason for a change to the consensus. There is absolutely no need for a pipe, let alone an egg in the first line: my attempts at the correction, which you have reverted, has neither pipe nor egg, and is still correct. I am really not sure why you are battling against something that no-one else has complained about, for no good reason. I note your comment on your talk place and refute it: you are being unnecessarily difficult in your stance against a very long-standing consensus. - SchroCat (talk) 13:10, 25 May 2014 (UTC)


 * (ec) I note with interest your failure to provide a source demonstrating the claim you wish to make, a claim that in SchroCat's formulation is clearly accurate. I'm happy for this to be any accurate description.  It is odd that you insist that there is a problem here distinguishing nations and states, yet refuse to accept legitimate and policy-based attempts to make the distinction clearer.


 * And I do hope that this was not an attempt to inappropriately WP:CANVASS your talk page watchers, because it certainly looks like it. If you want to talk to SchroCat on user talk, the correct place would be User talk:SchroCat. Kahastok talk 13:14, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Canvass? Not at all. I would normally have posted this to SchroCat's talk page but, due to his reaction, I felt more comfortable posting there. WP:TPNO specifically notes “altering others' comments, including signatures” as “Behavior that is unacceptable”, and I had every right to complain to him about it. He obviously disagreed. Daicaregos (talk) 13:51, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

That's good: ignore the fact I pointed out that it was done in error and you were, of course, able to change it. That's fine if you want to ignore it, but don't start trying to play the injured party because of it. - SchroCat (talk) 14:19, 25 May 2014 (UTC) (And if we're being honest, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SchroCat&diff=prev&oldid=609680824 this was my reaction. The link you posted was to your second pointy message that was posted). - SchroCat (talk) 07:04, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
 * As Kahastok points out, this is not the place. But, I am the injured party. You altered my edits, error or not, and are yet to apologise. Daicaregos (talk) 14:43, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
 * "Injured party"? Oh, good grief! If this is the worst of your troubles in life, then you're incredibly lucky! - SchroCat (talk) 15:10, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Much has been made that the article's text claifies the composition of this list. However, no justification has been made as to why the selection criteria excludes non-sovereign countries. This is contrary to WP:NPOV, which states: (WP:DUE) “Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. ” All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia. This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it. I have shown that according to the Oxford English Dictionary definition of 'national anthem', a nation's sovereign status is not relevant to whether a song can be considered a 'national anthem' or not. Further, I have provided reliable sources from across the world that define Hen Wlad fy Nhadau as a national anthem. Neither of these are minority views and, consequently, must be represented, per WP:NPOV. Daicaregos (talk) 15:03, 26 May 2014 (UTC)


 * See Dictionaries as sources: what a dictionary says isn't necessarily what we rely on, especially when the criteria don't happen to fit a narrow nationalistic interpretation. - SchroCat (talk) 15:13, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I've read it. It says that the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) is considered a secondary source for Wikipedia. So … thank you. Do you want to re-draft the selection criteria for us to agree, or would you prefer me to make a start on it? Daicaregos (talk) 21:28, 26 May 2014 (UTC)


 * There is no grounds to re-draft anything, no consensus to do so, and no sense in doing so. What there is, is a consensus to change "nation" to "nation state" in the opening line for greater clarity. - SchroCat (talk) 21:38, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
 * NPOV clearly shows maintaining selection criteria that excludes the national anthems of non-sovereign countries from a list of national anthems is not justifiable. Daicaregos (talk) 08:14, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
 * That's your opinion only, and there is nothing "clear" about it. As before, this page is named appropriately, as per WP:LISTNAME, and the hatnote and supporting text both make it extremely clear what the content of the list is: the only minor change to be made for absolute clarity is the change to nation state in the opening line. The Welsh anthem does not fall within the criteria as appropriately defined, and there is certainly nothing to overturn the existing long-standing consensus. - SchroCat (talk) 08:28, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Of course the National Anthem of Wales should be on this list! It should be under Non-soveriegn states. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 15:02, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Except that non-sovereign states are listed on a separate page, which is where they should be! - SchroCat (talk) 15:20, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Still not right. The title says "List of national anthems", the second one one is only "List of Anthems". Wales is a Nation and that wording should reflect that fact. Why not revert the senario: put the non-sovereign states under the main title "List of National Anthems" and the soveriegn sates under "List of anthems of sovereign countries"; would you like that? This is very biased. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 15:35, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * One solution for you is what we've done on cy, where we just have one page named "List of National Anthems", as Daicaregos mentions at the outset of this discussion. In that situation you have one list and all nations are equal. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 15:38, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * There is absolutely no bias here at all, I'm afraid: as someone who is proud of their Welsh ancestry I can assure you of that. In regards to the rest, I suggest you read through the thread above, which covers most of what you have said. I'll highlight particularly WP:LISTNAME ("The title is not expected to contain a complete description of the list's subject. Many lists are not intended to contain every possible member, but this does not need to be explained in the title itself.") as being of particular importance here. The title is appropriate, and the text clarifies the elements of both the lists present. The Welsh anthem—the anthem of a non-sovereign country—quite rightly sits where it is most appropriate: in the list of anthems of non-sovereign countries. I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by what you've "done on cy": I don't easily see that in what Daicaregos has written, so perhaps you could clarify for me? - SchroCat (talk) 16:16, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The argument being made is based on the fact that the Welsh Wikipedia includes the Welsh anthem. The Welsh Wikipedia article is cy:Rhestr o anthemau cenedlaethol, and based on a paraphrase of the Google translate (noting that there appear to be a couple of spelling mistakes) Wales and Brittany are included in a section headed, The following table includes the anthems of de facto sovereign countries that are not UN members.


 * It is difficult to imagine that the article at cy.wiki would come close featured status on en.wiki in its current state. Kahastok talk 19:02, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Thankd for clarifying that. As the policies and procedures of one wiki don't apply to another wiki, we are under no compunction to follow their guidelines. - SchroCat (talk) 21:15, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * (1) Given the title ('List of National Anthems') it seems logical not to insist on the exclusion of any national anthems from the list. (2) The justification for doing so seems to be as implausible as if someone were to create a page called 'Beers of Britain' and then exclude lagers, or a page called 'Breeds of Cats' and exclude ginger or calico ones. Would 'Languages of the World' be acceptable if a hatnote redirected people looking for 'those spoken outside Western Europe'? (3) The hatnote should surely not be used to redefine the title, and thus the category of inclusion, when the category could easily be made clear in the title itself ('real ales', 'monochrome felines' or 'Western European Languages'). (4) 'National Anthems' must surely best mean what it says, and if the page is not to do what it says, it should be renamed (e.g. 'Anthems of sovereign nation states', or similar). My apologies if I've missed something here... Gwybedyn (talk) 20:19, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, Gwybedyn, you have missed something: the explanations in the long thread above. Start with WP:LISTNAME and work down from there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by User:SchroCat (talk • contribs) 22:27, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
 * No Gwybedyn, you have missed nothing. No explanation has been given for the arbitrary exclusion of a national anthem from this list of national anthems – other than that some editors of this page believe they can. As to why, that remains a mystery. Daicaregos (talk) 13:25, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Nonsense: an explanation has been given: this is a list of [anthems of] sovereign states, not non-sovereign states. Wales does not fall into the category of sovereign state, thus is not included. It's rather disingenuous to claim that no explanation has been given, or to claim that the reason is arbitrary. You may not like it, or fundamentally disagree with it, but please don't try and claim there has been no explanation. - SchroCat (talk) 13:33, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. This list, as it currently appears, is a list of national anthems of sovereign states (not a list of sovereign states, as you say). But no explanation has been given as to why it is not called that (other than that you don't have to) and no explanation has been given as to why an article named 'List of national anthems' does not include all verified national anthems. Daicaregos (talk) 14:30, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Again with the misleading "no explanation" line? It's already been covered at great length above, and you've either not read what has been written, or have chosen not to understand. To clarify, if indeed you have not understood, it's because the alternative (if you want to utterly ignore WP:LISTNAME), would be "List of national anthems of sovereign states and de facto sovereign states". I'm not sure what mindset would think is an improvement in any way shape or form on the current title. Thankfully, and bringing LISTNAME back into the equation, we don't have to be so anally retentive with our naming formats, and can keep the majority of readers happy with the current version, narrow nationalist fervour notwithstanding. -   SchroCat (talk) 15:05, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
 * The question has been sidestepped yet again. The explanation I seek is why a choice has been made to limit the list to sovereign states, when it could be limited to national anthems. If this has been explained previously, I apologise. Please provide the diff. Daicaregos (talk) 17:49, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Why would it? There is no good reason (outside an extremely narrow nationalist agenda) to include every possible territory. Why would we do that exactly? So far there has not been any good argument to overturn the longstanding consensus. If it wasn't the Welsh anthem in question, would you be kicking up so much of a fuss? - SchroCat (talk) 18:10, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I couldn't agree with you more in this discussion SchroCat. I have been looking at some of Daicaregos' edits and they only serve to promote his/her biased nationalist agenda, often removing any trace of 'UK', 'Britain', 'British', etc. in articles, regardless of actual facts such as Wales not being an independent country and very much being part of the larger country that is the United Kingdom. 5.151.60.56 (talk) 21:48, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

SchroCat's ad hominem remarks towards Daicaregos is uncalled for; not needed in a mature dialog. User:Kahastok's negative comments on the Welsh language wiki is also very denigrating. Please keep to the pros and cons. This makes me question your neutrality on this matter. Of course Wales, Brittany, Euskadi, Catalonia etc are nations and I know from your above remarks that this point is not in question. Therefore a different benchmark such as sovereignty is unneeded; it does nothing more than cloud the issue. I suggest therefore that all anthems be included whether sovereign, unsovereign, with a monarchy or without a monarchy, large or small, thick or thin. To refer generally to Wikipedia - it should be inclusive and not an instrument in the hands of an exclusive club of bullies. I request we go to a vote as the status quo is biased and unfair. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 20:05, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
 * utter nonsense: there is no ad hominem aspect to my comment above. I also don't think you are in any position to start questioning people's neutrality. I'll ask you the same question: If it wasn't the Welsh anthem in question, would you be kicking up so much of a fuss? As to the vote, Wiki isn't a democracy, and we don't decide matters by way of a vote. I'd also not consider Kahastok's comment to be denigrating: saying a page is a long way from being an FL, when it's been put up as a direct comparison to this one isn't denigrating,it: it's pointing out the flaming obvious! - SchroCat (talk) 20:15, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
 * This is getting close to receiving the answer a child eventually gets. Why is it this way? Because it is. You have to define and delineate a topic or list before populating it and plumping for a title for it, which is what has happened here. This list is of national anthems of sovereign states and hence it only includes those. Yes, arguably, it might more accurately and pedantically be titled "National anthems of sovereign nation-states" but as naming policy declares, we don't need to be that precise; equally any list constructed on the proposed alternative basis should, by the same token, be titled "National anthems of sovereign nation-states and non-sovereign entities so long as they have been referred to in one source or other as being a 'national' anthem". The point is that there is no objective and fixed definition of what constitutes a nation or national anthem – it is a subjective description that some sources will apply in some contexts and to some entities and others in other contexts and to other entities. At least we currently have clarity about the criteria. It is an issue about presentation, not sources per se. Otherwise we are left with cherry-picking those sources and relying on what terminology wildly different random sources happen to use at any one point and what random editors with a specific agenda can dig up. Some sources would describe Yorkshire and Cornwall as having "national" anthems; others would not, and the sources that "confirm" Wales as having a "national anthem" might not confer the same privilege on Yorkshire because they are using the term in a different sense. Why favour one over the other and/or create a random mush based on different sources that are using the terms to mean something different?  N-HH   talk / edits  21:54, 30 May 2014 (UTC)


 * SchroCat: please read WP:IDENTIFYUNCIVIL "belittling a fellow editor, including the use of judgmental edit summaries or talk-page posts (e.g. "that is the stupidest thing I have ever seen")". Ask yourself: does accusing someone of talking "Nonsense" over and over again help the debate or detract from it? In the above discussion you have also attempted to belittle an user by phrases such as "you have not understood" and "if you want to utterly ignore..." when in my opinion the user had understood exactly what you meant. Such phrases can be used to belittle a person's intelligence; please refrain from doing this. You also accuse an User of having extremely narrow nationalist agenda, which doesn't help in any way. In fact that user's agenda is a very inclusive one, a very broad and ballanced agenda. He could easily have accused your agenda of being the narrow one, but politely refrained from doing so.


 * As to User:N-HH: do you honestly believe what you say? I very much doubt it! In my opinion, Wikipedians, in general, are highly intelligent people who can very easily differentiate between an English county such as Yorkshire and a 2,000 year old Nation with it's own language and unique culture. If you're looking for an easy option, a one-fits-all definition of a nation, well life's not that simple! Limiting the anthems to a chosen few, by measure of their 'sovereignty' (or any other criteria) doesn't work so let's look at the all-encompassing alternative of placing them all on one page (as we've done on cy). You seem to be very worried that a flood of places such as Yorkshire would attempt to place their National Anthems on that page: what evidence have you that this would happen? Have they or other similar counties attempted to be included on the non-sovereign nations list of National Anthems? I can find none, not one. Regarding my call for 'vote'; that's my slang for 'request for comment'. User:Kahastok's negative comments on the Welsh language wiki can not be justified: I mentioned the cy wiki article as it encompassed all anthems on one page, which is the unbiased, neutral, inclusive way of listings such as this. Commenting on the standard of that article was not needed and indeed, insulting and certainly not needed. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 19:58, 1 June 2014 (UTC)


 * When you accuse me of nonsense, I'll call it nonsense. If you had not accused me of something of which I'm not guilty I wouldn't have called it nonsense, so we can drop the accusation, thank you. I note in your comment you have failed to address the question put forward to you: If it wasn't the Welsh anthem in question, would you be kicking up so much of a fuss? I suspect Daicaregos isn't the only one with a nationalist agenda here. As to the rest of what you have written, firstly, "you have not understood": if you're going to try and pick up on my language, please do so in an honest way by quoting slightly more fully: I actually wrote "To clarify, if indeed you have not understood,". The "IF" makes quite a difference, and you'll note I'm trying to clarify something, not belittle anyone. "if you want to utterly ignore": again, you're misleading here. I talked about a possible alternative that could be used if one of the main policies was ignored. Neither of these have been used to belittle anyone. Given all that, you have accused me of being uncivil: so I'll repeat, it's nonsense to do so. I really don't know how anyone could call my agenda "narrow": I don't have one, and I'm not the one trying to alter an existing list (based on consensus), which is defined by an internationally standard description, simply to include an anthem on purely nationalistic grounds. Again, 's comment is in no way "insulting", and it's rather trite to try and categorise it as such: someone else tried to draw the initial comparison, and it's a fairly honest one - the Welsh wiki page is not fit for purpose: this one is an FL, with a good and solid base and a long-standing consensus behind it. - SchroCat (talk) 20:15, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, Llywelyn, I do – funnily enough – believe what I said, especially about the need to define your terms and criteria from the outset and about how there is a lack of clarity and coherence when you try to rely on different sources and different uses of a term to combine disparate ideas under one heading. And of course, further to that, my point very much was that it is impossible to agree a fixed definition of what constitutes a "nation", at least in terms of what would definitively qualify or not within such a category. Hence my comments about Yorkshire and Cornwall (while the two are not exactly equivalent, the latter is of course also an English county and its language is revived – people in Yorkshire spoke a different language 2000 years ago too). And Yorkshire is indeed sometimes described as having a "national anthem", by some sources at least. SchroCat's observation about nationalism and the sudden undue focus on one particular non-sovereign nation seem more apposite than your insinuations about how I and others might see the broader principles at issue here.  N-HH   talk / edits  21:27, 1 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I endorse that. Our own rules say that we have to have unambiguous and objective criteria and the proposals by Llywelyn are anything but.


 * If Llywelyn finds it insulting to note the poor standard of the cy.wiki article then so far as I am concerned that is not my problem. When it is proposed that an article on cy.wiki be used as the basis for a wholesale revision of a featured list, I cannot think of many points more relevant or more necessary to consider than the standard of the cy.wiki article in question.  If Llywelyn has a problem with that, ANI is thataway. Kahastok talk 21:37, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Anthems of other states and territories
The section starts with This table includes anthems of de facto sovereign states which are not members of the United Nations.

At least in case of Vatican City this is not correct, since it is also de jure a sovereign state. Either we reformulate the sentence to reflect this fact or we relabel the first section to "Anthems of United Nations member and observer states" and include Vatican City. I'd prefer the latter, since lumping an entity, which has diplomatic relations with 180 states, together with Somaliland, seems not quite right to me. Gugganij (talk) 09:41, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

UN observer states
Similar to the List of sovereign states I included Vatican City and the State of Palestine in the first list and renamed it "UN member states and observer states". Gugganij (talk) 11:57, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Table Including Nations/Territories Within Nation States
Another table that includes nations territories within Nation States should be included. For example as pointed out earlier by 176.248.60.201, God Save The Queen is not the official anthem of the United Kingdom, but rather the de facto anthem. Other songs are often used to in sporting events or in devovled government to illustrate national cohesion. For example in Scotland the devolved governement selected as the national anthem of Scotland to be Flower of Scotland, while in Wales it is Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau (Land of my Fathers). Equally in Catalonia it is Els Segadors (The Reapers). I am sure there are other examples that warrent inclusion and therefore in the interest of diversity and recognition of these peoples nation existence, these anthems should be included as Wikipedia as an encyclopedia strives to attain as much knowledge to notify and not censure or influence the reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8084:25C0:380:4099:13A5:A872:1A56 (talk) 16:02, 16 February 2016 (UTC)


 * See List of anthems of non-sovereign countries, regions and territories for the appropriate page. This has been discussed several times in the past and I see little reason to repeat the arguments again - you may see them above and in the archives. Kahastok talk 20:00, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Anthem "official" status
"God Save the Queen" is not the OFFICIAL anthem of the United Kingdom. There isn't an official one, and as it stands, GSTQ is the de facto anthem. 176.248.60.201 (talk) 12:33, 9 January 2015 (UTC)Lance Tyrell

The Star Spangled Banner was not adopted in 1814 (as the chart says. It was written in 1814.  It was not officially adopted until 1931, though it was in wide use as a national anthem before that.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amcalabrese (talk • contribs) 00:53, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Missing files and source-code in the article
With Afghanistan, Algeria, China, East Timor, Namibia, UAE and Vietnam the file seems to be missing but the code is there so there's a weird error message in the article, eg: " "Hymn Title"" instead of an empty table cell. Something else entirely is going on with Angola - I have no idea what. I vote to take these out until an audio file of the respective hymns is found. Judith Sunrise (talk) 18:35, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Iran anthem is wrong!
The anthem mentioned here as Iran's anthem is actually Iran imperial anthem and it is no longer in use after Islamic revolution in 1979. The correct Iran anthem can be found in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Anthem_of_the_Islamic_Republic_of_Iran. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smabtahi (talk • contribs) 21:47, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

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Denmark
Why is There is a Lovely Country shown as the national anthem of Denmark? When both it and King Christian stood by the lofty mast are the national anthem of Denmark. Shouldn't the oldest one of the two be shown?


 * King Christian stood by the lofty mast is not the national anthem of Denmark, it is the "royal anthem" or anthem of the royal family of Denmark. Think of it as the Danish equivalent of Hail to the Chief: POTUS may lead the United States, but that doesn't mean his theme song is the theme song of the whole country. - 188.182.13.127 (talk) 14:31, 30 April 2021 (UTC)


 * 'I have readded "there is a lovely country" because that is the song that is actually used as the Danish anthem. The royal anthem may be older, but it is not the national anthem, merely the royal anthem. If someone wanted to know what the anthem of Denmark is, they would want to know that is "There is a lovely country", not "King Christian stood by the lofty mast'. For proof please see youtube or google, as you can find hundreds of videos showing "there is a lovely country" being played at national gatherings, not the royal anthem. BobsenJr (talk) 12:40, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Malaysian anthem missing
Hello everyone

First of all, im not sure if this is the right talk page to put this in, but feel free to take me to the correct one if im wrong

So the article of the anthem of Malaysia Negaraku is now just a redirect to some Malaysian girl band. What happened to the page about the anthem? Is it just gone or where did it disappear?

ChrilleL (talk) 12:29, 8 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I've just looked into that. The page a few hours before you wrote that. I . Thank you for the warning! In the future, if you find vandalism again, feel free to immediately undo it yourself! :-) LongLivePortugal (talk) 15:08, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

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