Talk:List of neo-Nazi bands

Death in June
There seems to be at least one editor with a shifting Bay Area IP address who really, really doesn't think that Death in June should be on this list. The two sources are:
 * "Death in June: a Nazi band? - Midwest Unrest" from Libcom.org
 * This is an anarcho-communist news and commentary site. I don't know how well this aligns with WP:RS. This source is unambiguous, and documents many specific reasons its author considers Death in June a neo-Nazi band.


 * "Statement regarding Soleilmoon Recordings and Death In June" from the SPLC.
 * This is more solidly reliable, but is much less definitive in stating that the band is neo-Nazi. It does, however, quote the band's founder as saying that their political view of the future came from Ernst Röhm and Gregor Strasser. In other words, they chose two Nazis as the source of their political views. I sincerely do not see any other plausible interpretation. This change in view is the reason behind the band's name, which is a reference to the Night of the Long Knives.

From these sources, I would say the band belongs here, but there is definitely room for discussion. It's better than edit warring, at least. Grayfell (talk) 07:50, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
 * This article briefly describes some of the controversy without taking any stance. This article, instead of calling them neo-Nazi, says they're white nationalist.  Dunno.  I'd say they probably belong; it's sourced well enough for me.  There seems to be some contention, though.  NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:31, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

>but there is definitely room for discussion

The "room for discussion" is that there is no solid evidence to make the case that proves that Dougie P. is a Nazi, and so Death in June does not belong on a list of neo-Nazi bands. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.154.123.107 (talk) 22:23, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Dougie P is not a Nazi.
Provide a source of Dougie claiming to be a Strasserist, his interest in historical documents does not count. Otherwise, anyone who has ever read Strasserist writings out of interest or curiousity is a Strasserist in your view. This is precisely all he has ever claimed to have done.

He KICKED OUT AN OLD BANDMATE FOR BECOMING A NAZI.

ALTERNATE SOURCES: http://www.deathinjune.org/wiki/index.php?title=Article:Death_in_June_Demystified http://bigtakeover.com/essays/accidental-protege-an-attempt-to-clear-the-confusion-over-death-in-june-and-douglas-pearce https://noisey.vice.com/en_au/article/68d456/death-in-june-in-brooklyn http://www.occidentalcongress.com/interviews/intdoug_06.htm

Stop claiming that people are Nazis just because you are triggered by them not being politically correct about everything.

Have you actually LISTENED to the music? The lyrics are clearly ambiguous at worst, anti-fascist at best. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.42.11.224 (talk) 22:07, 8 April 2018 (UTC)


 * The editor who's been changing the article for weeks finally comes to the talk page... too accusing everybody else of being "triggered". Cute.
 * Those sources are unconvincing.
 * The deathinjune.org source is WP:SPS piffle, and isn't worth discussing further.
 * In the interview with Occidental Congress (whatever that is) Pearce is evasive and never actually states anything meaningful about his own beliefs, nor really anything substantial about what he tries to convey. He does, however, state that Crisis "had many far Right followers" and praises America for having "greatest Industrial Military Complex the World has ever known". These do not make him a fascist, of course, but they don't help. It also doesn't help that the interviewer is obsequiously accommodating, and seems to preemptively assign benign motives to his Nazi and fascist imagery, saving him the trouble.
 * The Vice blurb is just a bunch of hipsters saying pretty much nothing at all. Who cares?
 * The Big Takeover article is an opinion which doesn't actually seem to directly say Pearce is not a Nazi, nor is it particularly flattering to Pearce beyond sharing the same obsequious evasiveness. It sometimes seems to imply he is a neo-Nazi, such as when it says 'To say Douglas Pearce's music is "pro-Hitler" oversimplifies a complex and less than clean cut matter.' Is anyone using the phrase "pro-Hitler", here? So he's "complicatedly pro-Hitler"? The same could be said of Strasser until a couple of years before Hitler killed him, and nobody doubts that he was a Nazi. This opinion seems to indicate that Pearce cannot be a neo-Nazi because neo-Nazis never fail to share their beliefs when asked, which is nonsense. Saying Pearce is too cryptic to be a fascist isn't an argument. The author says that he's a "confusing-as-hell libertarian". I don't entirely disagree, but as Pearce says in the Occidental Congress interview, 'Libertarianism and Fascism are bedfellows no matter how some people might find that repugnant. They are definitely not mutually exclusive.' Well, okay, then. Grayfell (talk) 04:20, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

READ THIS: It's simple. Source a piece of evidence that concludes that Dougie P is a Nazi, or remove his band from the list. Wikipedia is not a place for speculation. It is a place for facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.154.123.107 (talk) 20:42, 9 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Read what, exactly? I posted a section on this issue above weeks ago linking to two sources and specifically inviting discussion. I'v already explained why I think those sources support that Death in June belongs in this list. The way facts are determined on Wikipedia is through reliable sources and consensus, not through original research (such as listening to the music and deciding for ourselves). It is also not determined through edit warring or ALL CAPS demands. If Pearce kicked out a band member for becoming a Nazi, you need to find a reliable source which explains how that means that the band isn't neo-Nazi. Grayfell (talk) 20:51, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

And you need to come up with a source that clearly proves that he is a Nazi if you're going to put him on this list. Again, have you even listened to the music? This guy is basically a batshit crazy occultist who seems to have a pluralistic view of just about everything. He's not a dedicated neo-Nazi by any stretch of the imagination. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.154.123.107 (talk) 22:18, 9 April 2018 (UTC) >such as listening to the music and deciding for ourselves But you're just deciding that he's a Nazi for yourself, even though there is zero proof of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.154.123.107 (talk) 22:21, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

http://www.compulsiononline.com/interview_dij.htm

Dougie acknowledges misconceptions but doesn't care about them. He's not a Nazi. Also, Crisis was a radical left-wing and anti-fascist band, and he's still comfortable re-releasing its material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.154.123.107 (talk) 22:33, 9 April 2018‎


 * You do realize it was administrators who locked the article because of your edit warring, right? If you really want administrators to help further, you could post at WP:ANI, but since you've been edit warring for weeks and we're now having an active discussion about this, I don't think that's appropriate just yet. If you continue insulting Pearce's sanity, you're basically asking for a ban, also, per WP:BLP.
 * My point was that we don't just listen to the music and decide for ourselves. That's WP:OR, which isn't what Wikipedia is for. I'm not deciding this for myself, I'm attempting to summarize reliable sources. I'd barely even heard of this band before I tried to clean up this list. Again, Wikipedia does not use original research, so whether or not any editor has listened to the music is a distraction. We go by reliable sources. If reliable sources say the band is X, we do not get to say they are really Y based on our own interpretation of whatever lyrics we happen to have heard.
 * While it might seem like a technicality, this article isn't saying that Pearce is, as an individual, a Nazi. It's saying that Death in June is a neo-Nazi band. The article says this because reliable sources say this. Those sources are the proof, and those sources provide a reason for the position they take. The article already includes sources explaining why his band is seen as neo-Nazi. When I say that Death in June appears to be a neo-Nazi band, it's because this is supported by reliable sources. Pearce may be a pluralistic occultist, but this entry is entirely about the band, and only to the extent it's covered by reliable sources.
 * Let's start with the basics and work from there. Can you find a source where Pearce directly states that he is not a neo-Nazi? This wouldn't, necessarily, be enough to remove the band from this list, but it would really help simplify things. What I've seen suggests that he simply avoids the question whenever it comes up, but I direct rebuttal could be used to change how this is presented here. Grayfell (talk) 22:51, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Maybe indirectly, I remember reading an article a little bit ago with Dougie clarifying that Rose Clouds of Holocaust was about a failed relationship, and pretty soberly stating that the misconceptions were indeed wrong. I’ll try to find the source again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:648:8200:57BF:4D9B:3E87:3BBA:D04F (talk) 17:04, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Death in June Cont.
The Southern Poverty Law center identifies Death in June as aligned with hate music. If needed additional sources can be provided but the SPLC is probably as good as any. Furthermore the Death in June article should also be made to note the Southern Poverty Law Center's view.2601:545:C001:7829:8118:64DF:83C4:AC4A (talk) 02:28, 4 July 2019 (UTC)