Talk:List of nicknames of presidents of the United States

Trump TFG
I added TFG / The Former Guy as a name for Trump. It was immediately reverted on the grounds that it's not in common usage. I'd say it's very common. There's about 765,000 hits on Google right now. There's an entry for it at Dictionary.com https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/tfg/ It's one of the items on the disambiguation page for TFG  It's definitely common enough to be included. Can we please add it.

"Genocide Joe" is absolutely not worth being here
For a nickname to be here it has to be used by either large parts of the American population or important people (politicians, media people, etc). "Genocide Joe" has neither of this characteristics. It is only used by a couple hundred people on Twitter and Reddit. It is incorrect to believe this terminally-online term used only by a fringe group of left-wing extremists is important enough to be on this list. That's why it should be deleted. Guyermou (talk) 16:07, 4 February 2024 (UTC)


 * I agree. Plenty of nicknames for Bush too and he is worthy of more ire than Biden yet I don’t see any nicknames here even mentioning his conduct in the Middle East. As much as I personally disagree with Biden’s policy on the Middle East, Genocide Joe isn’t suitable to be listed as a nickname here maybe if there’s a page listing derogatory slogans used at presidents sure but not here 99.232.236.142 (talk) 14:57, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I disagree, I have never heard "Amtrak Joe" in my life before, but I have heard critics of Biden's foreign policy call him "Genocide Joe" pretty often. Ad homenems aren't a measure of notability. Plenty of names on the list are derogatory too (look at John Adams for example). -1ctinus📝  🗨  23:14, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * "Amtrak Joe" I've heard for at least a couple decades. I personally can sympathize with the term "Genocide Joe". But, it is not widely used and is recent. It does not belong. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Do you know the best objective way to measure popularity of a term/nickname like this? it’s too recent for ngram (which has flaws), and google trends is only focused on google searches, so it may not be encompassing enough. -1ctinus📝  🗨  01:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * This is an historical article listing nicknames that presidents are known for going back over two centuries. The nicknames should be in reliable sources for a substantial period of time indicating that they will pass the WP:20YT. We should not be adding what's been shouted in parts of social media for a few weeks as such isn't likely to stand the test of time. O3000, Ret. (talk) 11:45, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The nickname has been very frequently used in reliable sources for months by now, and its last mention in the media was three days ago. This isn't a nickname that has been used by one singular occasion but is a frequent and well-known epithet towards Biden, and there's a voluminous amount of sources that indicate that this will remain relevant.
 * https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-mexican-restaurant-negative-reviews-1881426
 * HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 16:08, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * WP:NEWSWEEK: "Unlike articles before 2013, Newsweek articles since 2013 are not generally reliable." Yelp reviews are certainly not RS. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:24, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Alright, then six days ago by the Washington Post. My point that it's a common nickname, Wikipedia isn't a crystal ball but saying it "isn't likely to stand the test of time" is simply trying to predict the future.
 * https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/03/18/biden-democrats-protesters-gaza/
 * 18:53, 24 March 2024 (UTC) HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 18:53, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * That is a story about one, single person yelling at a rally quickly drowned out by the others present. Stop the presses. And it wasn't even a story. It was a short video that seems to have already been moved and generalized for Democrats as a group. As for WP:CRYSTAL, that's my point. We do not include things until they become notable -- not because we think they may. That is particularly true for this article that lists the nicknames that presidents have historically been most known for. Each of these presidents has likely had innumerable names fired at them when alive. We just include those that have lasted. I've removed over a dozen such names for Trump. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:37, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * How exactly do you quantify a "notable" nickname, then? Is 10 reliable sources mentioning the nickname to some capacity not notable enough?
 * I find it fair to mass-remove Trump nicknames that have been used by like, one or two people on a single occasion, but plenty of sources give the name as having been shouted at Biden by dozens of people and activists, and over a wide period of time as well. Nobody is ever going to refer to Biden as "Genocide Joe" in a formal sense because that's not what nicknames are for, but there has been plenty of sources that prove its been widely used. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 21:45, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * OK you made me look at your sources in the article:
 * 1. Some protesters
 * 2. Some protester and unspecified social media
 * 3. SKYNews AU is not considered reliable
 * 4. Does not contain Genocide Joe
 * 5. Fox News is not considered reliable for politics
 * 6. Behind a paywall
 * 7. Protester chants
 * None of this is like the nicknames in this article; which were heavily used by papers and opponents and most are now in history books. Not saying some protester said something, but using the nickname in their own voice. Most were positive and some lasted centuries. Again, this is a history article. This is NOT widely used and we can't include everything a few protesters shouted. Each president has a very small entry. There simply is no reason to assume this nickname shouted by some protesters will stand the test of time. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:21, 25 March 2024 (UTC)


 * There are a lot of sources dating back to late October that show that it is a nickname that has gained traction, whether by quoting protesters or repeating it in the titles. Some people with Wikipedia pages (Joseph Kishore, Bassem Yousef, and Philip Weiss) have used it. By typing "genocide joe" into Google, the first result I got was this page from www.whitehouse.gov; even the US Government has documented its usage. And there's more than that.
 * I certainly believe that "Genocide Joe" qualifies for this list. Pinoccappuccino (talk) 21:41, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I started looking and saw there were terrible sources included. I'm not going to do your work for you and examine them all. We use reliable sources. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:56, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've gone back and denoted the sources' reliability per Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources (I'm not removing the "terrible sources" for transparency of what my first response originally said). To show good faith, I'll provide a few more sources that are exclusively listed as generally reliable.
 * Pinoccappuccino (talk) 23:54, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The first ref is a religious paper quoting the New York Post, considered unreliable for politics WP:NYPOST. Please read WP:RS and please stop posting Google results as they are useless in an encyclopedia and no one is going to read them. Obviously shouting is going to be included in newspapers and such. Please keep in mind this is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper, and this specific article is about history going back well over two centuries. If you want something included, you must follow our policies and guidelines. WP:RS WP:RECENTISM WP:10YT WP:NOTNEWS WP:BLP O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:19, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
 * By the way, RS guidelines are generalizations about statements of fact. I'd suggest Fox, despite being considered nonreliable for general facts, can be relied on specifically as to what certain right-wing people think as it is anyway POV for their views. But this is just a side note. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 21:18, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
 * "Amtrak Joe" is very well documented (albeit it peaked before many editors were born) while the only reason "Genocide Joe" is even under discussion here is that it represents the views of the far left and not the far right. It also hasn't been demonstrated to be in sustained usage and to predict otherwise breaches WP:CRYSTAL. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 21:15, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
 * There is no consensus for inclusion and yet it continues to be forced into the article. This is not how Wikipedia operates. O3000, Ret. (talk) 10:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Now that Donald Trump has officially endorsed the term I think it’s fair to consider it notable enough for inclusion.
 * https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/04/14/genocide-israel-gaza-iran-trump-biden/ 92.11.168.9 (talk) 16:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Many of the comments in this section and the section below say it is being used by a "fringe group" of "far-left protestors." Fine, then here's a story from a reputable publication specifically focused on 1. this being a nickname and 2. it being used across partisan lines:
 * Trump supporters echo pro-Palestinian ‘genocide Joe’ chant
 * Another previous poster who is diligently reverting edits including "Genocide Joe" in the article mentions: "There is no consensus for inclusion and yet it continues to be forced into the article."
 * so... people are independently coming to this page and expecting to see it in the nickname category? and adding it in because it seems relevant to the page? As in... it's a commonly known nickname?
 * The majority of people on this page agree that this nickname should be included, and the list of sources Pinoccappuccino already provided ample evidence that this nickname was on a scale worth mentioning. for people considered about it being "political," why not just attribute it to the political group using the nickname? How is it not a nickname just because people who represent your viewpoint aren't the ones using it?
 * Seems like a couple of ardent page watchdogs are forcefully reverting edits under the guise of "wikipedia rules" when they don't seem to have well founded reasons to exclude the nickname, and when the majority seems to agree it's reached the level to merit inclusion Jatwa (talk) 01:59, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The majority of people on this page agree that this nickname should be included, and the list of sources Pinoccappuccino already provided ample evidence that this nickname was on a scale worth mentioning. for people considered about it being "political," why not just attribute it to the political group using the nickname? How is it not a nickname just because people who represent your viewpoint aren't the ones using it?
 * Seems like a couple of ardent page watchdogs are forcefully reverting edits under the guise of "wikipedia rules" when they don't seem to have well founded reasons to exclude the nickname, and when the majority seems to agree it's reached the level to merit inclusion Jatwa (talk) 01:59, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Should the nickname Genocide Joe be in this article?
Should the nickname "Genocide Joe" be included on a list of nicknames used for Presidents of the United States? 14:25, 14 April 2024 (UTC) HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 14:25, 14 April 2024 (UTC)


 *  No  This may be reviewed later as the name may stick and come into popular use but right now it can't be said that this is a widely used nickname. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 16:20, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Dozens of sources have described it as a widely used nickname. KlayCax (talk) 16:35, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No Definitely not, since this is not endorsed by the relevant guidelines (see my comments above and in response to other threads I encountered while scrolling down here). Furthermore, as a militantly non-partisan voter fed up with the circus that is my country's politics, I find it really concerning to be summoned here on WP by Yapperbot to a discussion about amplifying far-left name-calling when it's settled that we don't amplify far-right name-calling. It speaks volumes about the state of the editing in this topic area. Until next time, RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 21:23, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
 * It’s come to my attention that I didn’t read the article before assuming its current content. However, I still don’t believe it merits inclusion. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 06:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes. I’m going to respectfully disagree with the “No” side, but it appears to me that they are shifting the goalposts to a nickname I have heard in common use, and are against it primarily due to ulterior motives of not liking ad hominems. -1ctinus📝  🗨  22:08, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Not at all. "Brandon" is in the article, which stands for "fuck Joe Biden". I think that's an ad hominem. That had much wider use than some protestors. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:15, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment only if multiple reliable sources say/imply it is a common nickname. It can't just be from protestors but from the general public
 * Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:43, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
 * No. (Summoned by feedback request service). Inappropriate recentism. No evidence of broad usage outside of small protest groups. We’re not here to amplify fringe opinions. Revisit in a year and see if sources still use this. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 14:20, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I would say 6 months to see whether how it’s included in election recaps Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:34, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
 * No Frankly, I would rather we not have nicknames for the current or previous president. We know the nicknames of George Washington that have survived the test of time. They are in history books. With recent presidents we are mostly guessing at what will be in future history books. An encyclopedia shouldn’t try to predict the future. If we are going to add nicknames for current and recent, we must take care to limit the names to those that will obviously last. This one is recent and not obvious at this point. Reliable sources are not using it in their own voice. Late night hosts aren’t using it in jokes. People aren’t chanting it in the stands at race tracks. The following policies and guidelines apply: WP:CRYSTALBALL WP:RS WP:RECENTISM WP:10YT WP:NOTNEWS WP:BLP WP:NODEADLINE O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:01, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Then we should remove all present nicknames for Joe Biden. For now, it merits inclusion. KlayCax (talk) 16:00, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * There are editors, not just here but in general across topic areas, who would be fine with that and really with limiting coverage of the previous couple of years until time passes. I am still not totally sure whether I count myself among them. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 08:56, 10 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Pinging previous editors on this subject.
 * @1ctinus @Objective3000 @Pinoccappuccino @Guyermou
 * Here's a list of sources that the article currently uses:

HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 14:37, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Malformed RfC. You have mistitled the RfC as RS is just one part of the answer. We know RS have stated that the term has been used by some protestors. It doesn't matter if 100 sources repeat this. The question is whether it fits the statement at the top of the article: This list is intended to note those nicknames that were in common use at the time they were in office or shortly thereafter. Does common use mean just some protestors? If so, this would be a very long article as some protestors have used large numbers of names for each president, which have not stood the test of time. Where have reliable sources used this in their own voice or indicated that it is in common use among the populace? I've removed well over a dozen insulting nicknames used for Trump because they are documented in RS, but not in common use and will be forgotten. The same should be true for Biden or any other president. Keep in mind that this is an historical article going back nearly three centuries. It should not include every name shouted in anger. This is an encyclopedia. Patience, there is WP:NODEADLINE. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:07, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Alright, I retitled the RfC. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 15:12, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes. The term is in common use and has already been acknowledged by Biden and Trump. It's already far more notable than "Dark Brandon" (which absolutely nobody uses outside social media) 5.151.181.34 (talk) 16:30, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Well said! RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 02:51, 2 May 2024 (UTC)


 * No for now It might be too soon to include it per the criterion that the nicknames be "in common use at the time they were in office or shortly thereafter." Most of the sources presented above are from early 2024, so I don't believe the nickname has achieved widespread, common usage just yet. The exclusion can be revisited later if Biden gets re-elected and people are still calling him "Genocide Joe" during his second term. Some1 (talk) 23:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Comment: Following the closure of the Redirects for discussion of Genocide Joe by Utopes, HadesTTW redirected the article Genocide Joe from List of nicknames of presidents of the United States to Palestinian genocide accusation. After this KlayCax removed the redirect of Genocide Joe and it is now a stand alone article. Then Bill3602, tagged the article with with the discussion landing on this talk page. Just to bring things to speed. -- Classicwiki (talk) If you reply here, please ping me. 02:41, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "Palestinian genocide accusation" is currently the only place in the Wikipedia mainspace where the nickname "Genocide Joe" is discussed, besides the recently made standalone article. That is why I changed the redirect to there- I would prefer it to be a part of this list but the RfC is currently leaning against inclusion. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 02:47, 2 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Yes: Dozens of sources such as Politico, CNN, and Wall Street Journal have all mentioned it as a notable nickname related to Joe Biden. The argument saying it is "too soon" to add it is incoherent. If that is the case, then every other present nickname for Joe Biden has to be removed, and I don't think anyone here is in favor of that. Include. KlayCax (talk) 16:03, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Actually, as I have stated multiple times, I am in favor of removing all nicknames for Biden and Trump. And I think your labeling five editors comments as "incoherent" is not very civil. I had no problem understanding them. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:36, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Your position is coherent. I was talking about other people. Apologies if there was any confusion.
 * Either we include the nickname or we don't for either Trump/Biden. KlayCax (talk) 16:20, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I have deleted numerous negative nicknames for Trump -- even though I personally agree with them. They must be in common use and stand the test of time. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:50, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes for reasons described above. Master106 (talk) 00:59, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes Having read the arguments above, and given that sources of differing political persuasions are using it, gives credence to the idea that it should be included.  The C of E God Save the King!  ( talk ) 10:05, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Uncommon nicknames
added five Trump nicknames that are not in common use, required by the article lead. I removed and they re-added. There are a vast number of uncommon nicknames, mostly derogatory like these. Derogatory nicknames are allowed -- only if they were in common use. I suggest a self-revert. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:19, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Citing the article lead as the source for removal is self-referential. The lead is not a policy. Please define "common use" and what constitutes "at the time they were in office or shortly thereafter." The additional nicknames are sourced with WP:RS, and have been used since their introduction during the trial. Trump is less than one term out-of-office...does that satisfy the leads "shortly thereafter"?GobsPint (talk) 17:16, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The description in the lead is what this list is about. There are a million names thrown at presidents during their elections and terms. That's natural in politics. This is a historical article. It is about nicknames throughout two centuries of presidents. Other people have to be using the name over a period of time such that it endures (or will endure) in history books. Such that it become common usage. There is no reason to believe that one insult uttered by one person or media outlet will stand the test of time. O3000, Ret. (talk) 17:38, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * What time frame is sufficient to determine common usage? Why can't additional, notable sourced nicknames be listed? GobsPint (talk) 12:53, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If they are not in common usage now, they aren't in common usage, which is the subject of this list. Common usage means lots of people are using it, not lots of sources reported that someone used it. How does Donald Von ShitzInPantz compare with George Washington called the father of our country? O3000, Ret. (talk) 13:17, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Where would you place nicknames of presidents that meet WP:RS if not here? What constitutes common usage if not multiple sources repeating the same nickname?GobsPint (talk) 05:46, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * How are they repeating it? Are they repeating the same story? That's one usage, not common usage. We can't include everything that every president has been called. What historical value would that have? O3000, Ret. (talk) 11:43, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Per WP:RS, we report the facts. Excluding sourced nicknames, gives WP:UNDUE to the existing nicknames. There is value in a more inclusive, nuanced timeline of nicknames. GobsPint (talk) 06:42, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * We report DUE facts. We do not report the thousand names these folks have been once called by some person in anger. Few people have heard "orange turd" now, very few, if any, notable new uses will likely exist, and basically no one is likely to remember it in a few years. WP:10YT As for RS, of course the news sources jumped on it. But we are WP:NOTNEWS. O3000, Ret. (talk) 11:05, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * When someone references an Orange Turd, ShitzInPantz a decade from now, they should be able to locate its meaning. There will voluminous literature about the Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York. What constitutes a "notable new use" for a nickname?GobsPint (talk) 17:18, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Looks like there is a consensus to remove the names During the Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York, Trump was given the following names: GobsPint (talk) 19:57, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Orange Turd, given by Stormy Daniels and entered into the federal record.
 * Donald Von ShitzInPantz, given by Trump's former personal attorney, Michael Cohen, and entered into the federal record.
 * Don Snoreleone, Donnie Nappleseed, and Sleepy Don, given by the media after Trump assumed a demeanor resembling sleep.

Donald Trump referred to as "Comrade Nation Builder" on state-sanctioned Chinese social media

 * Comrade Nation Builder (Chuan Jianguo), a colloquial nickname on Weibo in reference to Trump's policies of enabling China

Donald Trump is referred to as "Comrade Nation Builder" on state-sanctioned Chinese social media. Per the above sources, this is an ongoing reference since his first presidency. GobsPint (talk) 19:55, 8 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I'm sure he's called all manner of things on Chinese social media. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:14, 8 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Your remark, while true, doesn't address why multiple WP:RS over several years do not justify the addition. Per your previous comments "I would rather we not have nicknames for the current or previous president." it seems that additions are impermissible at this time. GobsPint (talk) 13:56, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Again, RS does not mean DUE. The additions you are making are not DUE. Now, the Comrade Nation Builder stuff may be DUE on a Trump article. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:48, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the Runet also has their own nicknames for people. I think an English-language focus for this specific article is justified. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 05:35, 30 June 2024 (UTC)