Talk:List of nicknames of presidents of the United States/Archive 2

What is the point/criteria/etc for this page?
I'm curious as to the reason this page exists. Many of the "nicknames" seem to go against the very policy at the top of the page (that being Biographies of Living Persons) at least for some of them. How is it decided that a nickname is notable enough for inclusion on the list? How are these "facts" meant to be verified? Seems like a vandalism and POV target without much real usefulness. I understand that names like "Slick Willie" and "Dubya" are probably notable and widely used enough to be here but, what about some of the others? What keeps people from just adding junk? Jasynnash2 (talk) 15:07, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It's subjective, but that doesn't mean it's pointless. I would say that the test for including an earlier president's nickname is "Has it stood the test of time?" (e.g. "The Rail Splitter", but not "Baboon", stands the test of time for Lincoln). For more recent presidents, the number of times it's been used during and since his presidency is the test (i.e. "Dubya", but not "The Decider", stands the test for George W. Bush). Tom129.93.17.153 (talk) 00:08, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Tricky Dick (Nixon)
The nickname is supposed to have created by his Navy (?) pals as they thought Nixon cheated at poker and other card games. elpincha (talk) 10:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If true, it gave him an early start down his particular ethical highway. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:57, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I once heard someone say, "If Nixon thought the public wanted a President with scruples, he would have had some." Not exactly a nickname, and no citation likely possible, but on-the-money. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:26, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually Nixon was first dubbed Tricky Dick by Helen Gehagan Douglas, his opponent in a congressional race, who resented what she considered to be his slurs and unethical allegations about her (e.g. that she was a communist---he said "Helen Douglas is pink down to her underwear", and I'm not making that up. Tom129.93.17.153 (talk) 23:48, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * First usage was in an ad as cited. Took a while to find it . Collect (talk) 22:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Tags
Apparently some editors want to follow the letter, and not spirit, of the header tags. Here is the talk page discussion for the concerns over POV, neutrality, original research and the lack of sources. This page largely consists of names which are only used by the sources cited, but not explained in any detail. That leaves the rest of the explanation as synthesis and the name itself as a neologism. Most of the nicknames for George Bush are smears, and some of them are even used twice (Shrub and Shrubya, etc). Only names which are backed up by quality sources -the kind that give information about why a name is used and don't just use it- should be kept here, all others should be removed. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 17:04, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Dubya
Why does "Dubya" redirect here, yet Dubya isn't in the list of his nicknames? Seems to defy the point of the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.177.187.6 (talk) 07:27, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Why is Dubya or "W" not on this list? Danflave (talk) 06:13, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Because nobody has found an adequate source to support it. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 06:38, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Because you apparently know nothing about the subject. He even calls himself that. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 13:33, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Just a reminder that the threshold for inclusion in wikipedia is Verfibility, not truth. - -' The Spook (TALK) (Share the Love with Barnstars) 22:28, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

King Andrew
I noticed that this is not listed as a nickname for Andrew Jackson which doesn't make sense, as it was used constantly by his Whig opponents -ONI NavSpecWar —Preceding unsigned comment added by ONI NavSpecWar (talk • contribs) 03:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Old Kinderhook
Apparently, this was Martin Van Buren's nickname - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderhook Also see Wikipedia entry on the work "okay" Danflave (talk) 06:20, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced nicknames that are well-known...
...such as "King Andrew" Jackson, or "Ike" for Eisenhower, or "Dubya" for George W. Bush, should be fact-tagged, not deleted. We don't want the reader to think that wikipedia is run by the ignorant. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 13:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * If they are well known, source them. We do not presume that they are well known and we do not include original research. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 17:43, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You deleted some that were sourced. If you don't like the sources, put a fact tag in their place. But to delete "Father of His Country" from Washington, which every American who knows anything about history knows, while leaving some obscure reference to Cincinnatus, makes wikipedia look stupid. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 19:09, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * In the case of Washington, there is discussion in that article. What's the point in re-citing what's already in the main article? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 19:18, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Only because Wikipedia articles can't be used as sources. Just CC the source to this article. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 21:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It's cited in that article. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 21:50, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, so copy the citation from that article into this one. Or I will, whatever. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 21:51, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Or look on Google and see the thousands of references and find one that you think would be worthy. As an example, this PBS writeup: Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 21:54, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


 * What about "41" and "43" used for George HW Bush and George W Bush respectively? Former Bush (41) and Reagan Officials Say Bush (43) Must Go. Also, Reagan's nickname "Bonzo" was referenced in the Ramones song My Brain Is Hanging Upside Down (Bonzo Goes to Bitburg), in reference to Reagan's speech at Bitburg, Germany.Rock History 101: Bonzo Goes To Bitburg. Here is a reference for "Silent Cal" Properly timed zingers can turn laughs into votes.--HoboJones (talk) 05:26, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The Ramones aren't sources. For everything else, they must be quality, reliable sources that don't simply reference another website or refer vaguely to the person by their nickname without explaining it. By requiring high quality sources for this article we can safely keep out idiotic names like "Chimpy" and "Commander In Thief" for President Bush. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 21:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Commander in Thief ... lol, i've never heard that one before... but people, look at my reminder a little bit above in the "Dubya" section .- -' The Spook (TALK) (Share the Love with Barnstars) 23:32, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Juniors
Hi, why isn't George Bush listed here? His name is identical to his father's. --Shandristhe azylean 22:03, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * He's a junior, but then you'll get folks arguing about whether they're really a junior of they have different middle name(s). Also, it's fairly trivial. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 22:05, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well I see the Juniors section has been completely removed now. How come? --Shandristhe azylean 10:09, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It appears one editor does not like the section. Collect (talk) 19:57, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It was completely unsourced and didn't really belong in this article. - -' The Spook (TALK) (Share the Love with Barnstars) 22:26, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Barack Obama
Hi. Barack Obama is the President-elect and therefore not yet the President of the United States. Would it not be presumptious to include this section until after he's inaugurated? And could we please develop some standard of inclusion for the names here because this is getting pretty ridiculous. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 06:45, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


 * If he has documented nicknames, he is presumptive "President-Elect" at this point, so they ought to be included. Note below that I agree that the standards here are woeful at this point, even having book titles used as nicknames for people long dead. First rule: the nickname must be one the person would reasonably have heard in common usage. Second: the nickname should not be one promoted solely as a derogatory nickname (else "Baboon" for Lincoln and a whole lot more would properly creep in -- including a slew about FDR and HST). Collect (talk) 12:04, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree that Obama does not belong in this article at this time. Frank  |  talk  20:19, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

We should post here what was removed so it can be re-added in January.
 * Barry, a childhood nickname
 * No Shock Barack and No Drama Obama

Kingturtle (talk) 16:53, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

My addition has already been deleted, but I think it's unquestionable that "The One" belongs on this list. He's been called that for over a year, both as a sincere statement and - more commonly - as a pejorative. Citations are overwhelming. There was even an entire article in the Chicago Tribune about the nickname. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.0.48.166 (talk) 16:06, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Only Barry meets the criteria of being "in common usage" at this point. Collect (talk) 17:13, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

"No Drama Obama" retrieves 100,000+ hits. Kingturtle (talk) 17:15, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Number of google hits does not equal solid reference for it being a nickname "in common use" see way earlier posts where "google hits" were being cuited for obviously inappropriate nicknames. Collect (talk) 11:51, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 100,000+ hits is enough for me to justify use on this article. Kingturtle (talk) 12:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Here are examples of No Drama Obama being used in the media: NPR, Forbes, San Francisco Chronicle, Reuters, Los Angeles Times, The Huffington Post, China View, Fox News, MSNBC, South Africa's News24, Canadian Free Press, The UK's Independent, NY Times Op-Ed, Tuscaloosa News, Peoria Star, Pacific Free Press, Reuters again. Kingturtle (talk) 03:22, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Would it be alright to add NObama and Obama bin Laden to the list? Those are frequent nicknames used by people who oppose Obama. U can see them on any goole search. Emperor001 (talk) 03:27, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * See the talk page posts concerning criteria -- specifically that "contemporary common usage" is required, and that consensus is we must avoid pejoratives which do not meet those criteria. Thanks! Collect (talk) 11:18, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well the thing says that the criteria is if it withstands the test of time. These phrases have been around since monthes before the election.  How much time should pass?  Emperor001 (talk) 17:59, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

how about just using common nicknames -- many here are far afield
Right now, it appears two standards are being used -- disparaging nicknames used primarily in political columns and not by average Americans pepper tha list of recent Presidents, while the disparaging names of the past are omitted. Also many common nicknames found in print and in historical articles are omitted here, against all common sense. Lastly, initials are sometimes listed here, and omitted in other cases where they were, in fact, commonly used. Is this to be a comprehensive list of all disparaging nicknames? Is this to have a full list of Presidents who were known by their initials? Is there any rational basis for some of the partisan game-playing on some of these? Right now the list is at a D-minus in quality at best, and it really needs a solid non-partisan aim. I can not believe that anyone could maintain with a straight fact that Ike was not known as Ike, or that "Silent Cal" was not known as "Silent Cal." Especially when books bear that name. Now can we start getting this into a rational shape? Collect (talk) 11:27, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Cleaned up worst cases, added cites and info on several more. Deled periods in nicknames - U.S. usage is not to have periods in nicknames. Collect (talk) 11:55, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You mentioned some guidelines in the above section; which i mostly agree to. I think if we have multiple sources and it is used by media, derogatory nicknames should be included. But yeah, there needs to be a standard. - -' The Spook (TALK) (Share the Love with Barnstars) 22:30, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * At this point, I think the most egregious ones are gone -- many found in a single book or by a single writer (in some cases well after the poor fellow died). If we allow others in, we might as well open the floodgates.  Collect (talk) 23:19, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I think this is silly. Even if a name is not regularly used, or used primarily only by one prominent journalist etc., I have often found this to be an incredibly elucidating list because of the unusual historical perspective it provides. Of course I realize it's not personal, but I'm frustrated because I think I did a good job of sourcing most of the Obama ones, and you have, to quote the man himself, "used a hatchet when we need a scalpel." Don't you think there is value in knowing why supporters and detractors have called him "The (Chosen) One," "Obambi," "No Drama Obama" and "No Shock Barack"? There are important historical lessons in knowing why these names would come about, in my opinion. DanyaRomulus (talk) 00:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Too many "nicknames" are actually "titles of books" and not nicknames in common usage. If we allowed such single use names, there would be thousands of names, most of which would not be considered by normal people to be "nicknames."  I saw no reason not to have properly sourced Obama names here, and did not delete his listing.  This list, however, is designed to be part of an encyclopedia (as much as that might be wishful thinking at imes) and the rationale that Obama is not yet President seemed to have weight with others. Thanks! Collect (talk) 11:29, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that we should not list nicknames that are non-notable, but we should certainly list nicknames that were once used, even if they are not used today. Kingturtle (talk) 17:32, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I was unable to confirm "Gentleman Boss" as ever being in common usage for Arthur. I find many cites for the book, but book titles do not generally count . I can find that he was called "a gentleman boss" but not that it was a nickname.  Can you find a cite for contemporaneous use as a nickname rather than the book cited? Thanks! Collect (talk) 17:55, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Did more checking. He was possibly called "a gentleman boss" during his term of office. "Gentleman Boss" as his nickname first appears in the 20th century (in books, about 1967). Term not found in NYTimes archives either, which is one good place to find contemporary usage of nicknames.  Collect (talk) 18:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Still more checking -- the NYT did refer to a "Gentleman Boss" John O'Hara in 1926. Sorry -- I just do not find any real source for it being a common nickname while Arthur was around.  Earliest newspaper cites for it are way back in 1966. Moves us back only one year. Collect (talk) 18:09, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * In Reeves' book (which I cited in my original edit) he states that when Arthur died "Very few people thought it proper to talk about the Gentleman Boss." In the context, what he means is that no one wanted to talk poorly of him, and avoided discussing his days as a party boss. I read it as Gentleman Boss was already a moniker for him, but it doesn't come right out and say it. I have to re-read the entire book to see. This may take a while. I was also thinking of emailing Reeves. Kingturtle (talk) 19:57, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I love adding sourced nicknames, but I suspect Reeves did not actually search for contemporary common usage. Again, the NYT Index (or on-line archives) are one of my favorite sources, along with books issued within 20 years of a person's death. Collect (talk) 21:56, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Believe me, judging from the book's bibliography (which includes over 40 manuscripts of his contemporaries, over 40 newspapers from his lifetime and over 200 other publications), Reeves definitely had all his ducks in a row. I emailed him to find out if he had the definitive answer to our question. Kingturtle (talk) 00:36, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Teddy Roosevelt
Isn't Roosevelt's best known nickname "Teddy"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.54.101.22 (talk) 02:45, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It certainly is, and I just added it back with a tag as a reminder to select one of the thousands of Google references to it. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 02:51, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Deled by someone -- added back by me with cite in NYT from 1900. Collect (talk) 08:02, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

natural nicknames
We have some "natural nicknames" in the list, but not others. Thomas Jefferson was referred to as "Tom" for sure, and so on. Should we be encyclopedic and add all for which we can find cites, or should we de-emphasice the common ones otherwise? Should we try to be consistent? Collect (talk) 15:52, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

J Q Adams
This article says that John Quincy Adams was the only former president to serve in Congress after his presidency. This is incorrect, as Andrew Johnson served in the Senate after his presidency. It also has nothing to do with nicknames, so I am just going to remove it. Tad Lincoln (talk) 01:42, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * JQA is the only President to be elected to Congress after serving as President. Johnson served as an appointed Senator for about five months before his death. Collect (talk) 01:58, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, but that's different than being the only former president to serve in the Congress. And, as I said before, it has absolutely nothing to do with presidential nicknames. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tad Lincoln (talk • contribs) 06:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

George H.W. Bush
Daddy Bush isnt on the list, but that nickname actually redirects to the 41st president on wikipedia. shouldnt that be added? Crd721 (talk) 09:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * We are trying to restrict this to actual nicknames in common use. FDR's kids called him "daddy" as do many other families so it is not generally considered a nickname in common use. Thanks! Collect (talk) 11:07, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Standards
I am not fully sold on the common use standard or the used-during-lifetime standard. I think it is of historic interest to know family nicknames, nicknames between friends, and posthumous nicknames. Posthumous nicknames could simply be tagged posthumous. Kingturtle (talk) 14:22, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "Dad" and the like are general nicknames across the board. They shed no insight about the person at all, and would open the list up to a whole bunch of names which were never commonly used to denote a specific President.  (F'rinstance neither  "Prez" nor "Mister President" are given as a nickname, though many were called that.)  And a "posthumous nickname" makes little sense at all.  This list was riddled with names of books masquerading as "nicknames" to the detriment of the list.  BTW, did you find a contemprary cite for "Gentleman Boss" specific to Arthur? Thanks! Collect (talk) 14:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Er...I wasn't suggesting dad - but if GHW Bush is called Poppy, that is of interest. And listing posthumous nickname is useful for an encyclopedia. As for Gentleman Boss, I've already told you that I emailed Thomas Reeves about it. I myself do not have access any time soon 19th century newspapers or manuscript collections of Blaine, Hayes, Garfield or Conkling. Kingturtle (talk) 15:24, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "Pop" "papa" "dad" "daddy" "old man" and the like are not specific to any Presidents really. And while you might have a point about BLPs listing biographies and their titles, this is not a biographical article per se -- it is a list of nicknames.  Collect (talk) 15:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I respect all your hard work here to address the list, but the standards you're desiring are a bit restrictive. I won't make any rash edits to the list, but I will be bringing over the next few days to the talk page nicknames I feel should be restored or added. Kingturtle (talk) 16:24, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It gets to the question, "What is the article's purpose?" One guy can't define the purpose by himself. But standards can be arrived at through discussion and concensus. The issue of nicknames is really slippery. Bill is obviously a nickname for William. The difference is that Bill Clinton publicly went by Bill Clinton. If William Henry Harrison went by "Bill", it was certainly not in public. For a comparison, consider W. C. Fields, who was known as "The Great Man" and some other nicknames. Friends and colleagues called him "Bill", and he was called "Bill" in one of his movies. But that's rather a less commonly known name. Andrew Jackson has often been called "Andy", but I doubt anyone breached the rules of public formality and called him that to his face, unless they knew him well. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:36, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually it is only because I had read every single post to this talk page that I figured out what one of the problems had been -- the use of this list as some sort of political game instead of trying to be a list properly includable in an encylopedia. The earlier discussions by many others reached the conclusion that solid refs were essential (I even had to find a cite for "Teddy" and a few others myself).  By having fairly strict criteria, the ability to play games is vastly reduced.   up where the article was a few months back, it will again be a zoo.   Collect (talk) 11:43, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I have received an email back from Mr. Reeves regarding the Gentleman Boss nickname. He has verified that it was a term used by Arthur's contemporary journalists. I am re-adding my original post, and re-adding my citation to Reeves' book and the page number. Kingturtle (talk) 13:08, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oops. I see it has already been re-added. Kingturtle (talk) 13:10, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Glad to hear it has contemoorary usage. Sorry if this sounds too strict, but if you read how this page developed, I am sure you will sympathize! Collect (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Another Lincoln Nickname
MY history textbook says that Lincoln was called "Spotty Lincoln" because when he was in the Senate, before the Mexican-American War he demanded that to justify war, they should know the exact spot that the American troops were shot at on American soil.--76.173.255.40 (talk) 01:01, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually the "Spot Resolution" was after the start of the war ... the derisory nickname did not take hold, but is noted in a number of books. Probably acceptable with the comment that it was a derisory nickname given him by Democrats who supported the Mexican War, and with a specific reference ?  Collect (talk) 02:08, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I have found several sources that say his opponents called him Abraham Africanus the First. As well as drawing pictures of him as an African American,BenW (talk) 17:02, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * But not "common usage" -- few campaign names make it into general usage. Tom Jefferson had a whole bunch of such names which are not included either. Collect (talk) 20:28, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Ownership of articles
Collect, with all due respect, you are watching this article like a hawk and you are claiming that a consensus has been reached that book titles are not of use here. No such consensus was reached. These may be your standards, but they are not mine, and we need to work on finding some common ground. I find it quite irksome that you revert good faith, cited posts to this article. If you are going to removing something I posted because you didn't like the source, it would be helpful if you put some time in and dug up a source you do like. This is not your article, and you do not set the standards or the rules. With all due respect, Kingturtle (talk) 15:00, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually it was. If we allow all the book titles in, we will add about three or four HUNDRED names to the list. Hence the common-sense proviso of "common use."

From talk page above:

Agreed, fellas. For something to be a nickname, it has to be in common usage -- otherwise it's just an epithet. Most of those listed for Bush fail the familiarity requirement badly and should not be included. -Onward ND 04:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

This article is full of partisan nonsense. Look how many more nicknames there are for the last 4 presidents compared to the rest of presidents in US History. The majority of the nicknames listed for Bush 41, Bush 43, Clinton, & Reagan are non-notable, obscure crap put in by partisans. It needs to be cleaned up, but it doesn't appear likely to happen any time soon. Comments? Dubc0724 13:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm curious as to the reason this page exists. Many of the "nicknames" seem to go against the very policy at the top of the page (that being Biographies of Living Persons) at least for some of them. How is it decided that a nickname is notable enough for inclusion on the list? How are these "facts" meant to be verified? Seems like a vandalism and POV target without much real usefulness. I understand that names like "Slick Willie" and "Dubya" are probably notable and widely used enough to be here but, what about some of the others? What keeps people from just adding junk? Jasynnash2 (talk) 15:07, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Apparently some editors want to follow the letter, and not spirit, of the header tags. Here is the talk page discussion for the concerns over POV, neutrality, original research and the lack of sources. This page largely consists of names which are only used by the sources cited, but not explained in any detail. That leaves the rest of the explanation as synthesis and the name itself as a neologism. Most of the nicknames for George Bush are smears, and some of them are even used twice (Shrub and Shrubya, etc). Only names which are backed up by quality sources -the kind that give information about why a name is used and don't just use it- should be kept here, all others should be removed. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 17:04, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

If they are well known, source them. We do not presume that they are well known and we do not include original research. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 17:43, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

The Ramones aren't sources. For everything else, they must be quality, reliable sources that don't simply reference another website or refer vaguely to the person by their nickname without explaining it. By requiring high quality sources for this article we can safely keep out idiotic names like "Chimpy" and "Commander In Thief" for President Bush. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 21:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Note also that when you source a nickname properly, I thank you. Collect (talk) 15:13, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Collect, the quote you reference ("If we allow all the book titles in, we will add about three or four HUNDRED names to the list") does not appear on this talk page. I don't know where it is from. Also, the thread you posted in your response says nothing about books. What it does say is "If they are well known, source them." Shrub is well-known, and I sourced it. And I don't understand why you removed it. Sincerely, Kingturtle (talk) 15:50, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * As it was not in quotation marks, it was not a quote. "Shrub" is a book, and is not a nickname "in common use" and that view dates back to before I ever came to this page.  Sorry -- but it is a pejorative nickname current from a single book by a well known columnist.   My position is the same on the multiple attempts at pushing Obama nicknames. All I am doing is trying to be consistent on what nicknames are used in this article.  "This page largely consists of names which are only used by the sources cited, but not explained in any detail. That leaves the rest of the explanation as synthesis and the name itself as a neologism. " is from Cumulus Clouds. Ask  him why trying to be NPOV here makes sense.   Collect (talk) 16:02, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I am being NPOV here. Pejorative nicknames are okay. Shrub is NOT used only by the source I cited. Cumulus Clouds left the project last month. So let's discuss this together. Kingturtle (talk) 16:12, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * You asserted that I was the one who came up with the system here. I was not.  It works pretty well -- recall "Gentleman Boss" once the sources were tied down, it was put in.  And the door for "pejorative nicknames" would include "Chimp" for Bush? I suggest that such is not a wise course of action indeed.  Therefore unless and until you get a consensus for adding pejorative nicknames, the current system holds. And if it is changed, wait to several dozen sexual nicknames for Clinton etc. creep in.  Ergo, my position is that the current requirement for sourced nicknames in common use and not pejorative is reasonable. Thanks! Collect (talk) 16:21, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There are already a number of pejorative nicknames in the article already. I am unsure why you find some acceptable and others not. Could you please explain why? Kingturtle (talk) 16:46, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The ones here were apparently acceptable to Cumulus Clouds, or were found to be very common in use otherwise. I did not delete older names on the list, nor did I evaluate every name on the list .  If you find one which is pejorative and not in common use, tell me so we can discuss it. Collect (talk) 17:13, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It is inconsistent to include some and exclude others. This smacks of POV, which I assume you want to avoid. There is nothing wrong with including pejorative nicknames in the article; moreover, including them makes the article more thorough and useful. If a nickname, good or bad, is or was in reasonable usage, and a decent citation can been found, the nickname should be included. Kingturtle (talk) 17:23, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The examples which had apparently been a problem in the past quite nearly led to deletion of the article entirely, so I must disagree on the wisdom of adding pejorative nicknames to it.  The most important part, to me, is that the usage be common, and not restricted to a small group.  I would indeed suggest that if the concern is POV (though how POV a nickname for Lincoln is at this point in time, I know not) then we ought remove the pejorative names which you find to be POV.  Collect (talk) 18:29, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I have refrained from reverting your reversions to avoid an edit war. Instead, time and time again I bring my issues to the talk pages.

You removed:
 * Jerry the Jerk calling it single use. William Loeb was famous for it. And it was repeated.
 * The Trickster calling it "not in common usage". The citation is from David Gergen. He was in the White House at the time. What better source? And it was in common use.
 * Really Damn because it appears not to have been applied to Hoover. Did you look at the citation? It is from the Hoover Library.
 * The Great Unknown for "not in common usage". Maybe not today, but in the 19th century it was. We've been through this before when you reverted my "Gentleman Boss" addition saying "Gentleman Boss is book title (see talk) no sign it was "in common usage" by anyone." You were quite wrong.
 * Teflon Ron as "not in common use deleted -- this article ought not be a playground insult list". The reference is from Spin Magazine. Their total circulation is 450,000. As for your this article ought not be a playground insult list comment, this is not a playground. It is an encyclopedia, and we should not pick and choose which nicknames to include based on whether they are nice or not. Wikipedia is not censored. I am furthermore miffed at your double standard of deleting some nicknames based on their negative connotation while allowing others to remain.

Also, what are you basing your 18th, 19th, and 20th century common usage standards on? Kingturtle (talk) 14:44, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Damnit. I had started a well-researched reply with links a few days ago that I thought I posted, but apparently I left it halfway-done in preview mode and only now realized it. If needed, I'll re-research it to get the pertinent links.
 * Loeb was famous for using derogatory nicknames, as was his widow later, but I could find almost no evidence that anyone picked up "Jerry the Jerk" except to deride its usage.
 * I found a couple of references to "The Trickster" and "Old Trickster," but the vast majority of hits for "trickster" and "Nixon" were for members of his administration who resurfaced elsewhere in politics. Personally, I would omit it as both 1) not particularly commonly-used, and 2) too derivative of "Tricky Dick."
 * Read the source more closely - "Really Damn" was the nickname given to his translator, not to Hoover.
 * Incidentally, that citation contains what does appear to have been a commonly-used nickname for him, "The Chief." (It long predated his Presidency, and gets a number of bona fide hits - not just coincidental usage of the word chief.)
 * But I disagree with "Hoo-yah," as the only hits I can get for that are 1) That single citation 2) Sources directly derivative of that single citation 3) Wikipedia, based on that single citation 4) Sources directly derivative of Wikipedia. If the standard of the article is "Names they've ever gone by," which is arguable, then I can see including it. But if the standard is "Names that got common use and weren't forgotten in short order," I would say it fails.
 * I'll try to get to "The Great Unknown" and "Gentleman Boss" soon. arimareiji (talk) 16:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * On the "shrub" question specifically I'll go ahead and re-insert it with appropriate sourcing. It is widely cited as a nickname that Molly Ivins invented (along with "Dubya"), not only as her own personal pet name.  The sources so far also mention the Ann Richards operatives used the name in campaigning, and I'm pretty sure it gained wide currency as a derogatory (yet humorous and light) nickname.Wikidemon (talk) 09:26, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Done, though the research / sourcing suggests that Ann Richards invented that nickname, and Bush himself coined Dubya (though Ivins liked to use both of them). Wikidemon (talk) 10:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Still does not meet "common usage" alas. Cumulus Clouds was even stricter than I fo sure on such nicknames -- this article is intended to be as apolitical as possible.  Collect (talk) 22:13, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Strict reading of common usage should not be our bar. This is an encyclopedia. We should be listing nicknames associated with each president. Kingturtle (talk) 12:42, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I would suggest that removing that particular bar would open floodgates to be sure. I found more than thirty "nicknames" for Lincoln alone which would be usable were it not for that bar, and a couple dozen for Jefferson.  Collect (talk) 13:17, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Obama -- need common usage
I have not found any genuine "common usage" for "Joe Cool" as a nickname for Obama, I looked. It was used by Snoopy a few years back, but no sign of people actuoally calling Obama that. I can find sites which use it for "Joe Flacco" but not Obama.

Also only a few commentators using "No Drama Obama" all media folks - no sign of common usage.

If you can furnish genuine cites for "common usage" please post them here for discussion. Collect (talk) 19:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I provided citations for each of those. You want me to site PEOPLE? Like fansites and random blog entries? I'm providing sources from reputable news sources, such as the AP!


 * As for Joe Cool, more than one person can have the same nickname. That's allowed. Lawrence Taylor is LT. LaDainian Tomlinson is LT. Babe Ruth and Babe Herman. And as for Snoopy, he didn't "use" the nickname a few years back. It was 40 years ago, and he is STILL and will always be Joe Cool. Kingturtle (talk) 20:40, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Nice try. But when all the main hits are for a person actually named Joe, the odds of claiming that it is a nickname applied commonly to Obama rapidly diminish. Collect (talk) 21:56, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * How do you prove common usage? What are the criteria? Kingturtle (talk) 22:25, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Showing that when people search for the nickname they are likely to find Obama would help to begin with. At this point, "Joe Cool" and "nickname" on Google do not show Obama in the first 200 hits (I stopped there) out of 7,880.  Adding "Obama" still gets only the Flacco and Montana hits for the nickname. Common use? Nope.  Sorry about that. Collect (talk) 22:57, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There are 15,000 hits for "Joe Cool" obama -flacco -montana. Kingturtle (talk) 07:35, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Now find some which specifically call Obama "Joe Cool" as a nickname. I come up with under 500 total. Many of which do not call Obama "Joe Cool." Sorry -- that is not "common usage" by a mile.   Collect (talk) 11:50, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * What number is your standard? I am trying to work with you here. Kingturtle (talk) 14:21, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

You need to cite a specific example, for a start, then cite more that show common usage and are not simple reproductions of that first source. Even in the times source the phrase Joe Cool is not used as a nickname, apart from as a headline leader. Darrenhusted (talk) 14:50, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Before I start looking I want to know what Collect's standard is, to see if it is worth my while to do the research. A few times I have done research only to get a revert as a response. Kingturtle (talk) 14:55, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

If you wish to add stuff the burden of proof rests with you, you need to find cites that use Joe Cool in the context of a nickname, not just in passing. It is not Collect's standard but Wikipedia's standard. List here ten examples, then see if they meet WP:RS, if they don't then you will be reverted, not just by Collect, but by me and other editors. Darrenhusted (talk) 15:26, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It sort of depends on what the point of the article is. I would think its purpose is to list commonly used names. An example would be that Limbaugh calls Obama "The Messiah", but that would not be suitable here. The main issue is that the list would become unwieldy and never-ending. Information needs to be "notable". I'm sure Rush's dittoheads think it's notable, but it's not, at this point. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:37, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As a comparison, consider Babe Ruth, who is also listed as "The Bambino" and "The Sultan of Swat". Those were common nicknames. He had lots of other nicknames, some not printable, but only the common ones are given, otherwise it becomes a trivia contest to try to find all of them, and that runs up against the policy to avoid trivia if possible. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:42, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm all for proof. I've gone as far here as emailing a presidential scholar to get that proof. I was asking Collect what his standards were because they tend vary. Kingturtle (talk) 16:00, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I try to be as consistent as possible -- might you show me where I felt a nickname not properly cited as in common usage belonged in the list?  Collect (talk) 16:03, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You say "common use and not pejorative". You delete pejorative nicknames that I add, and you let stand pejorative nicknames that exist in the article. That is not consistent. Kingturtle (talk) 16:16, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Which one ought be removed then? I do not read every old name on the list fer shure. "The Gentleman Boss" was your contribution -- I do not find that one particularly pejorative ... some of the ones you added were never in "common use" anywhere (like "Mad Bomber" for Nixon, etc.)  Collect (talk) 16:49, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think any pejorative nicknames ought to be removed. I think they should all be included. Kingturtle (talk) 17:18, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

(unindent)Third opinion: The standard for inclusion should never be partisan usage by a single group/source (or many fringe sources on the same side), for or against. If it's not neutral, it needs to stand the test of time - "Tricky Dick," for example. If it's not adopted into such common currency that even the opposite side would immediately recognize who's being referred to, it fails. And new nicknames will almost always fail that test.

Whether or not the NY Post ("Bam"), Mad magazine ("GI Joke"), etc makes up "clever" nicknames is irrelevant - they always have and always will. The question is whether anyone except them uses or recognizes the nickname. I'll watch this page for awhile, so please say so if there's a "sticking point" of dispute I haven't addressed. arimareiji (talk) 13:11, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Although you bring up valid and interesting points, you haven't said anything to address in particular the arguments at hand. Kingturtle (talk) 21:54, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If you have a specific nickname in mind, please bring it up. But I believe those standards cover pretty much everything being discussed.
 * If it's derogatory or laudatory, and hasn't already stood the test of time, then it needs to be so widely-recognized that even the opposite side would know who it refers to. They don't have to like it, but they do have to recognize it. If Joe Conservative (and probably many liberals) asks "Who?" when you refer to Bill Clinton as "the man from Hope," it doesn't belong. If Joe Liberal (and probably many conservatives) asks "Who?" when you refer to Barack Obama as "Bam," it doesn't belong.
 * Neither regular usage by a partisan source (i.e. NY Post) nor singular usage by a more-reliable-than-partisan source (i.e. NY Times or Washington Post) qualifies a nickname for inclusion. And any contemporaneous nickname that belongs would be by far the exception, not the rule. arimareiji (talk) 10:26, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I do have specific nicknames in mind. See the above conversation called Ownership of articles. Kingturtle (talk) 18:12, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

alphabetizing
Would anyone mind if I alphabetized the nicknames under each president? Kingturtle (talk) 20:34, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem as far as I can tell. Collect (talk) 00:16, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

common diminutives not unique to a president - question
Ought this list include "common diminutives" as nicknames? We recognize "Teddy" as being Teddy Roosevelt (and the "Teddy Bear") -- but should we include "Jerry" Ford, "Bill" Clinton,  "Tom" Wilson, "Ron" Reagan, "Lyn" Johnson, "Andy" Jackson and "Andy" Johnson, "Ben" Harrison, "Chet" Arthur, "Frank" Pierce, "Zach" Taylor  etc.? (all of which are, indeed, sourceable nicknames as I have looked each one up). Collect (talk) 14:24, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you clarify why Teddy would be acceptable and Jerry not? Kingturtle (talk) 14:51, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ford was typically called "Jerry", but I never once heard LBJ called "Lyn". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:24, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I found references to Lady Bird, among others, calling him "Lyn." As for "Teddy" he and "Jimmy" are the two ones best known for a natural nickname -- "Teddy" is ensconced as a nickname in "Teddy bear" as well.  The only place I can find "Jerry" as common usage was "the Ev and Jerry Show" - but I dount that many recall it. Collect (talk) 16:08, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If she and family members called him Lyn, but no one else did, I don't think it's appropriate for this list, although it depends on what the purpose of the list is. For comparison, Babe Ruth wasn't called "Babe" by his family, friends and teammates, it was actually a funny version of "George", sometimes rendered as "Jidge" sometimes as "Jedge". But that wasn't a public nickname, and at present it's not even mentioned in the article. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:26, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Jerry was and is in common usage. Nixon called him Jerry. A 1976 book refers to him as Jerry in its title. He was called Jerry in his youth. Kingturtle (talk) 16:15, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton went by those names, in fact I think that's how they appeared on the ballot. By contrast, I doubt very much that "Tom" Wilson was in common public usage. In fact, public diminutives were rare in those days. Abe Lincoln would be an exception, and even that was campaign hype. I think Tom Jefferson and Andy Jackson were in fairly common usage, though maybe not to his face. Jerry Ford was in very common usage as I recall. I don't recall Ronald Reagan ever being called "Ron" publicly. Ron Reagan was the public name of his son. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:37, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Woodrow's family called him "Tom." Clinton on the ballot was "William" as far as I can tell.  I think the question is, if you saw a headline "Bill Visiting Germany" would you have immediately said "Bill Clinton"?  "Teddy Searching Amazon" was clear when it was used in papers.  I would just suggest that as far as is practicable that such uncommon nicknames wrt "immediate recognition of who you were talking about" be kept to a minimum. Collect (talk) 20:31, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Aha, you've hit upon a potential and reasonable "standard". If the name appears in the public media, by itself, does it suggest the President? "Bill" likely would not. "FDR", "Ike", "JFK", "LBJ" all would. "Teddy" might not, but it would depend on the context. That is, if it were from an early 1900s front-page, it would almost certainly refer to TR. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 13:22, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * All we need to add is "contemporaneous usage" then to the criteria? Collect (talk) 14:22, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

"Poppy" Bush
I noticed that the article didn't include "Poppy" for GHWB, so I checked here. Up above, I read: ...but if GHW Bush is called Poppy, that is of interest... Kingturtle (talk) 15:24, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "Pop" "papa" "dad" "daddy" "old man" and the like are not specific to any Presidents really... Collect (talk) 15:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

As a nickname for GHWB, "Poppy" (the flower, not "Pop" or "Papa" or "Pappy") long pre-dated his having any children. I spent a couple of minutes with Google and found NYT sources where friends said they called him that in 1941 and 1942, when he was a teenager. Consequently, I'm adding it to the article (with sources, of course). Dori (Talk • Contribs) 00:20, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Seems dead on from the cite given. Collect (talk) 01:12, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Bold
The amount of bold on this page causes there to be little emphasis on anything.70.238.149.215 (talk) 21:19, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Likely so -- but the names of the Presidents in a list of Presidents would seem deserving. Collect (talk) 23:39, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it's all of the hyperlinked subheadings -- that appears to go against guidelines (Manual_of_Style_(links)); also, is there a reason why it's in descending order? I know this article is kind of a special case so I thought I'd put it out for comment before I decided to change these. 70.238.149.215 (talk) 03:02, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I have no idea why it is in descending order, but moving it all around would be a pain I suspect. And the MoS General Principles does not work well on such lists. Nor does WP:LISTS which does not posit a list of items which are all wikilinked, but which where each may have one or more items underneath, some of which may also have their own articles or links, etc.  Hence the current system. Collect (talk) 12:15, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

His accidency
per was specifically not applied to TR, much less "common use." Collect (talk) 16:05, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice find. Kingturtle (talk) 16:36, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * We aim to please.  Collect (talk) 16:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Give 'Em Hell Harry
Collect, when you removed Give 'Em Hell Harry you said "See talk" in your edit summaries....but there is nothing on this talk page that discusses that nickname or Truman. Can you please elaborate? Thanks, Kingturtle (talk) 13:02, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * There are endless references to it in Google. The question becomes, is that a true nickname, or simply something people yelled at him? Hence, more of a slogan than a nickname. Note how often it's spelled as "Give 'Em Hell, Harry!" The comma is important. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 13:16, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * See Senator Leahy, the Comptroller General of the United States, House of Representatives Committee on the Judiciary - Subcommittee on the Constitution. The editor in chief of Airforce Magazine (of the Air Force Association) refers to him as Give 'Em Hell Harry. Here is another example, here and in the USA Today - and here, p. 200 here. Those are all without commas, and use the phrase as a nickname. Kingturtle (talk) 14:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Yet the ones I looked at said it was a campaign slogan. "I like Ike" was not Ike's nickname. James Whitmore's play definitely had the comma, though some azy folks seem to lose it .  Other test is whether it was in common use as a nickname -- and that seems not to be the case. His nickname was "Harry" and the "give em hell" was a slogan.  As for googlebooks -- the first 24 have the comma, then one sans, then just about non-stop with commas.  It is a nickname for some, just not in common enough usage AFAICT, it is more recognized as a slogan.  Collect (talk) 15:51, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The University of Virginia's Miller Center of Public Affairs, POTUS.com, The Independent, the Calgary Herald, the SF Chronicle and the State of Delaware (among others) say it is a nickname. The National Archives has "Television outtakes where Harry Truman explains his nickname, "Give 'em hell, Harry."" (Note that in this instance, the comma is used in the nickname). Kingturtle (talk) 16:40, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Problem is that his "common nickname" is found within the quote after a comma -- which makes the issue really a tad interesting. Brewer's also gives "Haberdasher Harry" as a nickname. As I said, the only question is how common is it as a nickname, although it is well known as a slogan. Collect (talk) 16:45, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * If you say to a babyboomer or the parent of a babyboomer, who was Give 'em hell Harry, it is more than likely they'll answer Truman. Kingturtle (talk) 16:53, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Since it is a well-known play etc., likely so. If you ask them what Truman's "nickname" was, they will just say "Harry." Obnly a very tiny minority of sites cal the slogan his nickname.  Collect (talk) 18:19, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I am showing examples of sites that use it as a nickname. I can give you more if you like. Can you show me something that says it is NOT a nickname, like you did before? Kingturtle (talk) 18:22, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * VERY few cites say something is "not a nickname" -- the Teddy Roosevelt example was not common to be sure.  Frinstance -- do you think you can find any cites that state "Hey Hey LBJ how many kids have you killed today" was never used as a nickname for LBJ?  Asking for negative proof does not work -- we need positive proof that it was a common nickname and not just because people know the campaign slogan.  Collect (talk) 18:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not providing you with examples of "Hey Hey LBJ how many kids have you killed today" as a nickname, but I am providing you with examples of "Give 'em hell Harry" as a nickname. A U.S. senator, the U.S. government, a U.S. state and THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES don't seem to sway you. Kingturtle (talk) 21:07, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Just a suggestion - could you list some of the refs that called GEHH a campaign slogan? Negative proof is well-nigh impossible, but showing that there's an alternative explanation would at least cast doubt. If you paste up some bare links, I'll search out the text. (I know cut/pasting can be a pain in the ass.) arimareiji (talk) 21:28, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * 1. His autobiography is "Give em Hell, Harry. " 2.  as a shout.  and so on ...  four hundred full or limited google views. For "nickname"  the subset of books is only 19.  Subset for "campaign" is 164.  WP, which is decided;y unreliable, lists it as a campaign slogan .  Was it *ever* used as a nickname? Yes. Was its most common use as a nickname? No. Collect (talk) 21:46, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * 1. No context, and I don't think the comma is conclusive alone. 2. From the same book, p20: "Three years were to elapse, for example, before anyone would dream of referring to him as "Give-'em-hell Harry."" 3. No context, and I don't think the comma is conclusive alone. Finally, #2 illustrates why argumentum ad Googlem fails in this case - it doesn't use the word nickname, but it's a clear example of one. arimareiji (talk) 22:09, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't have to be one or the other. It can be a slogan and a nickname, and I've provided very credible citations that use it as a nickname. Kingturtle (talk) 21:50, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You have -- but not shown "common usage" and certainly not as common as reference to it as a campaign slogan. There lies the rub. Collect (talk) 21:59, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Removing it would require at the least a preponderance of instances where it was only used as a campaign slogan. Several have already been listed in which it was used as a nickname. 1) A comma, absent context, does not prove it's only used as an exhortation or slogan rather than a nickname. 2) It's already been demonstrated that argumentum ad Googlem fails, because absence of evidence (the specific word "nickname") isn't evidence of absence. 3) A source which shows use as both doesn't discount use as a nickname; it strengthens it. arimareiji (talk) 15:45, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * As noted above -- far more instances of the slogan with the word "slogan" appear in book references than have the slogan occurring with the word "nickname" by a substantial ratio.  Clearly general web hits are useless, especially with all the major ones echoing WP .  I happen to actually like the name, but must, in all conscience, apply precisely the same standards to every nickname proposed.  Sort of a "devil's advocate" in the considering of sainthood. Collect (talk) 01:38, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * As noted above, argumentum ad Googlem fails when instances clearly exist of use as a nickname that don't use the word "nickname." The only ref you cited which clearly showed use as a slogan or exhortation... also showed use as a nickname on p20, but because it didn't use the word "nickname" you missed seeing it and used it as an example of why it's not a nickname. arimareiji (talk) 13:29, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Barry? I've never heard anyone call him that! -zadgof —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.99.156 (talk) 08:07, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Dubya again
The article says, "a self-chosen name based on the Texan pronunciation of 'W.'" ...based on what? I'm a Texan. I don't say dubya; I highly doubt you can provide a source that states that every Texan says it that way. I'm not offended, I just think that maybe we should fin d another way to describe that as it seems stereotyping. Fantasy Dragon (talk) 23:46, 20 February 2009 (UTC)


 * It was as close as we could find for a non-POV explanation.  Not all Texans have the same pronunciations, but the "W" is definitely how some pronounce it.  Collect (talk) 14:24, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That sounds POV to me. I agree that that's how some people pronounce it, obviously, but saying "most Texans" say it like that? Literally no one around here says dubya; I don't see how that's most Texans. Fantasy Dragon (talk) 18:06, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe I wrote "some."  Do you have a cite for no Texans pronouncing it that way? Collect (talk) 18:37, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay. You had "mot," I thought you meant "most." Do you have a cite for all Texans pronouncing it that way? Why can't we just describe it as an "alternate pronunciation" or something like that? Fantasy Dragon (talk) 18:40, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I think "an/one alternate pronunciation" is less troublesome to prove, myself. Question: Does anyone have a cite for any Texans pronouncing it that way? arimareiji (talk) 19:08, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Clearly the Bushes, and I have most certainly heard it from others. Collect (talk) 22:44, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * lol The Bushes aren't everyone from Texas. How about "an alternate pronunciation most commonly heard in Texas," or something to that effect? It sounds better than saying all Texans say it. Fantasy Dragon (talk) 22:47, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Or how about just saying, "the way Bush (or the Bushes) pronounces it", to keep things simple, and let the readers infer whatever they want about Texas and/or southern pronunciations, ya hear? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 00:11, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * In contrast to implying ridicule of the south, it could be considered more efficient. "World Wide Web" has 3 syllables. "WWW" has 9 syllables, as per standard pronunciation. In the Bush family, it only has 6 syllables. :) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 00:14, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

The current statement does not say "all Texans." WWW in German has only 3 sylabbles, by the way. Collect (talk) 03:51, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * No, but "the Texan pronunciation" means that's how all Texans pronounce it. And yeah, "one" does sound better than "the." Fantasy Dragon (talk) 04:14, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * "A" is an improvement, but like "the" it still implies universality. "One" would more correctly imply that it is a single variant. I would consider that sufficient modification - would you, Fantasydragon? arimareiji (talk) 23:11, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that sounds good. Like I said, I'm not offended by it (I don't get offended easily), but it just sounded wrong for a Wikipedia article. Fantasy Dragon (talk) 03:10, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * "A" already implies that it is a single variant. "One" sounds awkward. Tad Lincoln (talk) 05:36, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

KIng George?
I'm pretty sure quite a few people (including myself) refer to George W. Bush as "King George" similar to how Jackson was referred to as "the King." יודייוס (talk) 23:08, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Not a nickname in common usage. I suspect he has been called a s of a b -- but that also would not belong. Collect (talk) 23:12, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * If we ever start including all the deprecatory nicknames people have ever called them, Clinton and Bush Jr are going to need their own articles.


 * More seriously, in agreement and amplification of what Collect said, the standard is common usage and/or passing the test of time. If only a group of his detractors would recognize who the nickname refers to, it fails. If even his supporters would recognize (but hate) the nickname without having to think about it, it passes. arimareiji (talk) 23:31, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

The Decider
This nickname has been applied to George W. Bush fairly frequently since 2006. It's used enough that a Calvin Trillin book "Deciding The Next Decider" was influenced by the nickname. What do people think about including it? CylonCAG (talk) 23:20, 06 March 2009 (CST)
 * See the extensive discussions above. Nicknames should be in common use, and not primarily disparaging nicknames nor nicknames primarily found in a book.  This is not a political article, it is a list of nicknames commonly, and contemporaneously applied to presidents. Again, read the prior discussions about what is, and what is not, considered a good addition to the list. Thanks! Collect (talk) 12:52, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Barack Obama again
Based on the number of google hits, "The Big O" definitely ought to be listed as a nickname for Barack Obama.

I disagree with the notion, expressed above, that disparaging or derogatory nicknames shouldn't be listed. That would require deleting "That Man in the White House" for FDR, "King Andrew" for Jackson, "Landslide Lyndon" and "Macbird" for Lyndon Johnson, and "His Rotundity" for John Adams! Nicknames express negative as well as positive public perception, even snide and vicious public perception. That's the way it goes in a democracy. Tom129.93.17.153 (talk) 23:36, 8 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Number of Google hits is important in getting a feel for how common something is, but that alone isn't a reliable source.


 * I agree with you that disparaging or derogatory nicknames should be listed. It would be really dumb to have an article on Presidential nicknames without Tricky Dick, as the easiest example. But recent ones are highly unlikely to stand the test of time. From earlier, my apologies if you've already read it:

And any contemporaneous nickname that belongs would be by far the exception, not the rule. arimareiji (talk) 23:57, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) If it's derogatory or laudatory, and hasn't already stood the test of time, then it needs to be so widely-recognized that even the opposite side would know who it refers to. They don't have to like it, but they do have to recognize it. If Joe Conservative (and probably many liberals) asks "Who?" when you refer to Bill Clinton as "the man from Hope," it doesn't belong. If Joe Liberal (and probably many conservatives) asks "Who?" when you refer to Barack Obama as "Bam," it doesn't belong.
 * 2) Neither regular usage by a partisan source (i.e. NY Post) nor singular usage by a more-reliable-than-partisan source (i.e. NY Times or Washington Post) qualifies a nickname for inclusion.

How come I'm the only one who's proposed Obama bin Laden and Nobama? Insulting nickames should be on here just as well as complimenting ones. I haven't even heard of the ones currently listed for Obama. I've also heard him called Obama bin Lyin, Socialist, Communist, Nazi, etc. I wouldn't include the latter because everyone uses those as insults for liberals, but Obama bin Laden and Nobama should defitely be on here. They are common anti-Obama slogans, you see them on bumper stickers, blogs, etc. Emperor001 (talk) 22:22, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Truman
Come on, you guys! Everybody knows "Give 'em Hell Harry" was a common nickname of President Truman! Nobody has any right whatsoever to remove that! This is getting ridiculous. Tom129.93.17.153 (talk) 23:55, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for pointing out its absence. I'll work on getting the cites in place to put it in; I hadn't realized it was out. arimareiji (talk) 00:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrary removals
Those who assume to themselves the right to summarily remove nicknames from this article, without announcing their intentions and giving folks a chance to discuss it on this page first, are being arrogant. The question of whether to include a nickname in this article is very subjective, and not a matter of factuality as in most other Wiki articles. Tom129.93.17.153 (talk) 00:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The discussions above are pretty clear -- purely pejorative names do not fit in, this is mainly a list of common nicknames in contemporary use for the presidents. Collect (talk) 01:50, 9 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure, but I think we mean the same thing expressed two different ways. Would it be fair to say that you think that nicknames which are derogatory but which can serve as common-use identification (i.e. Tricky Dick) are acceptable, but those that are solely derogatory (i.e. a shared joke among a group of opponents) are not? arimareiji (talk) 02:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The issue is "common" -- "common among people who hate you" is a much lower standard. "Tricky Dick" was basically grandfathered into this list, and an accurate cite for its origin was finally given.  Older derogatory nicknames have found their way into references, and the criterion I sought was "contemporary wide usage" to rule out some of the more extreme examples from the past.  Their is no reason to add new derogatory nicknames just becasue one finds a book with the name or it is used by a partisan website.   The objective is to have consistent non-partisan criteria as best we can, but I would say 99% of the problematic ones fail any criteria of that nature. Collect (talk) 10:45, 9 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree. Purely pejorative names do fit in. There are a few pejorative nicknames on this article, and they should remain, and pejorative names not on the list should be offered for consideration. Kingturtle (talk) 13:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Alas -- you would allow "Buckfush", "Chimp" etc. in as nicknames for Bush?  "Cigar f-er" for Clinton?  Seems we need to specifically disallow such trash.  Collect (talk) 14:22, 9 March 2009 (UTC)


 * No. I said "offered for consideration." Kingturtle (talk) 14:26, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * There is no shortage of derogatory nicknames for most any President. The key issue is "common" names, as Collect said. "King Andrew the First" for Jackson could be one. "Tricky Dicky" was used a lot in Nixon's day. Bush and Clinton have been called all manner of things, but none of the examples given are "common". "Dubya" was used on both sides of the fence. Clinton was often called "Slick Willy". Those are "common". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 14:33, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

First Black President
Yes, Toni Morrison called Clinton that -- the issue is whether it is in "common use" and I can not find cites indicating that it is in common use. Lots of political and Morrison references, but not really outside ones. I can find it used as a quasi-slogan, but it is unclear to me if you asked a hundred Americans "Who is the first black president?" that even one would say Clinton. Collect (talk) 20:39, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That nickname for Clinton has been on this article for nearly four years. Cumulus Clouds' opinion seems to be your litmus test. He okayed it. I'm not sure why you're suddenly questioning it. Kingturtle (talk) 03:44, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The circumstances have changed, in case you did not notice. Where once the only person presumably called by that name was Bill Clinton, that is no longer the case. I did not find it to be "common" then, but it did arguably refer to only one person. Checking up on cites now does not show it to be or have been in common usage, and there is a new president with that eponym who is far more widely known for it than Clinton was. Hence my concern that it does not meet "common usage."   And most current usages of the phrase apply to Obama, though I find it more likely a simple descriptor than a nickname to be sure.  Sometimes events have an effect even here. Collect (talk) 11:04, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Usage changes. Wikipedia is not only for current events, but for historic reference too. That a nickname falls out of usage does not remove or reduce its notability. Kingturtle (talk) 11:44, 27 March 2009 (UTC) By the way, through these debates we have, I am speaking to you with all due respect, and I apologize when my tone is read otherwise. Kingturtle (talk) 11:44, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem -- I know I can be curt (not my nickname ) but the goal is clear. How can we address the issue that it was once associated with Clinton, but seems not to be particularly associated with him now?   "reduced usage after election of Obama"?  Collect (talk) 11:47, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * This nickname was used much earlier to refer to Teddy Roosevelt. See Theodore Rex -- I don't have my copy handy. LukeDouglas (talk) 23:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Sourcing
Please note that nicknames should be reliably-sourced as being in common use before they can be included. Otherwise, we'd have about 10k entries. If a nickname is commonly used, it shouldn't be difficult to find loads of sources to back it up. arimareiji (talk) 23:16, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm frustrated
The rules require a citation before a nickname is added to this article. This is frustrating, because I know of several nicknames that are fairly common but I don't have a ready citation. Ergo, I can't add them to the article even though I know they belong there. Examples:

Washington's nicknames include "The Cincinatus of the West", "Sword of the Revolution", and "The Surveyor President."

Jefferson was called "Pen of the Revolution."

James Monroe's most common nickname was (and is) "Last of the Cocked Hats."

Coolidge's nicknames include "Red". He was called that just about as often as he was called "Silent Cal".

Truman was very often called "The Man from Independence", after the town in Missouri he hailed from. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.93.17.195 (talk) 03:24, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Lyndon Johnson's nicknames include "MacBird", after the theatrical piece that satirized him; also he was very commonly called by the derisive name "Lyndon Bird."

Nixon was often called "RMN" by the press.

"The Big O" is one of Obama's commoner nicknames. It circulates underground and is hard to cite, but it is certainly much more commonly heard than "No Drama Obama"! It no doubt originates from the fact that he is the only president whose name begins with O.

I can't agree that "First Black President" is a common nickname of Clinton. In fact, it isn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.93.17.195 (talk) 03:19, 1 June 2009 (UTC) \
 * "Cincinnatus" is in the list. "Sword of the Revolution" and "Surveyor President" do not appear to have been in common contemporary usage. "Pen of the Revolution" is not common for Jefferson - and is also found for Mason and Paine. 'Last of the cocked hats" I could not find as common for Monroe - Washington Irving used the phrse in a story. "Red" is appied to all kids with red hair and does not specifically denote Coolidge in any source I could find.   The NYT did not use "man from Independence" at all until well after HST was out of office, and rarely then (only twice in the 50s out of  many hundreds of articles mentioning him in that period),  making it rather "not in common usage" at all.   "MacBird" was a specifically pejorative nickname which never attained common usage.  "RMN" was not in common usage any more than "GHWB" was for Bush.  Or "GW" was for Washington.  "The Big O" has been proposed, but lacks cites for common usage at all. And "the first black president" has a slew of references for Clinton - it was not only used by Morison, but in speeches by Clinton, referenced in the NYT etc. just under two thousand times alone.  It may well be less apt that it was, but it met "common contemporaneous usage" clearly. Collect (talk) 10:32, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * How about the SDI-referencing "Ronnie Raygun" for Reagan? A quick Google search reveals mostly song lyrics and blog posts...  65.213.77.129 (talk) 20:59, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "Song lyrics" do not equate to "common usage." You might wish to read the discussions on this talk page. Thanks! Collect (talk) 22:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Let's not forget "Ron Headrest". :) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 23:52, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I also found "The Alzheimer's President." As noted, we need the standards here we have for this list.  Collect (talk) 00:04, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I wonder if there's a book (such as Facts About the Presidents) that would actually be a good umbrella source. We can find sources all day that support endless nicknames. But being sourced doesn't make them notable, it only confirms that they exist. A one-step-removed source that indicates commonly used nicknames has to be out there somewhere. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 02:38, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * One problem is that some of the published lists have errant material in them such as the ones for Hoover being called "Hoo Yah" or the like. My personal opinion is that the best source is contemporary usage in newspapers in a manner suggesting that the nickname is in common use, or, for childhood nicknames, that a rational basis for the name is furnished in a biography.  In a way, I suppose, I would like the nickname to be one which, if spoken in earshot of the person, would cause him to turn around (and not to aim a gun at me ).  Else this would devolve into a list of thousands of names and be of no use to readers. Collect (talk) 10:50, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, that puts wikipedians in the position of doing that newspaper research and trying to decide which names are sufficiently "common" to include - and that sounds like synthesis and original research on our part. Someone should have already done that research. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 11:00, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * An NYT search takes only a few seconds, thank goodness (not really very good before 1851 for some reason or another). And since NYT is a "secondary source" in and of itself, it is not OR to cite it for usage.  And I do wish there was a perfect source out there, but, so far, all the main ones seem to have been done for children, and the standards for sourcing are less than inadequate for them.  Government sites seem best, but miss a lot of the ones we have here (I do not recall griping at a name given in a government article on a President).  If we remove the ones not found in government sites, we will remove a whole bunch of them. Collect (talk) 11:14, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ultimately, it comes down to what the purpose of the list is. I also question the alphabetic listing. Everyone who knows anything about Washington knows "The Father of His Country". But "The American Cincinnatus"? Truth to tell, I never heard of that one until I saw it here. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 11:35, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

(out) You never had to read "The Man without a Country" by Hale? I am also unsure about the nicknames being alphabetical, but did not want to have a confrontation with the editor who did it. The only one I am sure you knew was "First in War, First in Peace, and Last in the American League" ... oops ... Collect (talk) 12:00, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I did, but that was a loooong time ago. "First in War, etc." wasn't a nickname, it was a slogan. Like you wouldn't say "Nixon's the One" or "Four More Years" were nicknames for Tricky Dicky. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:05, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * We have "Give 'em Hell, Harry" which I regarded as a slogan, but consensus felt it was a nickname.  Consensus rules sometimes on stuff like that, but I trust consensus basically holds to the rules set out before I made my first edit here. Collect (talk) 13:06, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The Truman one is borderline. It was originally something that someone shouted at him (with an implied comma), then it became a slogan (with a comma) then evolved into a nickname (without the comma). Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:24, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Ulysses S. Grant, at one point in his career, was frequently called Useless Grant by the press. During his presidency, the name resurfaced.

Milhous
I removed this as the first source was cited to a page that did not mention it, the second source is a blog and the third a fan site. WP:RS and WP:V apply here just as they do elsewhere in Wikipedia. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:42, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Even if true, one of the lesser talk radio guys giving someone a nickname doesn't make it notable. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 00:56, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Blocked, after 4 reverts. They're so cute when they get mad. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 01:31, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

You're an insult Bugs. Mark Levin isn't one of the "lesser" radio hosts. He's one of the biggest and a close friend of Limbaugh and Hannity. He also has the number 1 nonfiction book for all of 2009 according to the New York Times, Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto. Learn facts before you speak falsely. Also, the marklevinfan.com is the official fansite as stated by Mark Levin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.119.128.146 (talk • contribs) 11:44, 15 July 2009
 * Exacts google searches for O M B, with and without the e, total 144. Out of 82.8m hits for Obama, so not really worth noting. Darrenhusted (talk) 19:14, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The criteria for listings on this article are cogently set forth a few times on this talk page. A significant one is "common usage." Collect (talk) 16:47, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

You people clearly don't understand the point of me saying what I said. I'm done with trying to get Milhous on the page. I'm just defending Mark Levin because he's a HUGE sensation and has sold the most nonfiction books this year despite the lib media's attempts to ignore his book. I could give a hell if you're still trying to make stupid little points about your criteria for inclusion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.119.175.211 (talk) 23:20, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Order of names
I hope no one will mind my suggestion - as an Irishman - that you should have the presidents in the order of office, then the numbering would match the presidential number? Jezhotwells (talk) 01:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Not unless we have two entries for Cleveland. Rillian (talk) 01:26, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, good point, showing my ignorance there. Jezhotwells (talk) 01:33, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Obama Jr.?
His article says that his name is Barack Obama II, so that's what it should be here as well. Tad Lincoln (talk) 01:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Usually "Jr." is only used while the father is alive. In any case, no one calls him "Jr." →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 01:24, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I meant that this article gave his full name as Barack Hussein Obama, Jr., but it is actually Barack Hussein Obama II. I just went ahead and changed it. Tad Lincoln (talk) 01:28, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Roger. →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 01:32, 2 October 2009 (UTC)