Talk:List of nicknames of presidents of the United States/Archive 3

Move
The move has made this name incorrect, they are not listed by nickname, which would involve re-arranging the list so that the actual names were mixed. It is a list of nicknames. This needs to be moved back. Darrenhusted (talk) 01:17, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree.  TREKphiler   any time you're ready, Uhura  18:29, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Or simply change "by" to "with" nicknames Collect (talk) 18:43, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

T for 2?
I can't source it, but "Jeopardy!" claims TR was known also as "Teedie" (not "Teddy"). TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  18:29, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Alex Trebek thought the singer was Jimmy Buffet . "Teedie" was Teddy's nickname from 10 months on  -- find the sources and add it (duck soup).  I recommend McCullough.  Collect (talk) 18:42, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Lyndon Johnson
"*Bullshit Johnson (Bull Johnson in public) Lyndon Johnson had a reputation for boasting at San Marcos College"

What's the problem? It was a common nickname for him in college. --Profitoftruth85 (talk) 18:10, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * But not in common use after that or even in much use during that time. Darrenhusted (talk) 20:47, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Look, that's just original research on your part. I've provided a citation that says it was commonly in use at that time. I didn't personally observe this person's entire life and neither did you so let's stick to solid references here. If you can find a source that disagrees with its being used at that time then provide it, if you doubt the validity of this source then I can go to WP:RSN and make sure its reliable.--Profitoftruth85 (talk) 21:02, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Checking such places as the New York Times - it certainly does not appear to have been "in common usage." The purpose is to prevent a slew of derogatory "nicknames" being inserted on the basis of, say, a columnist who disliked a president making up a nickname. Collect (talk) 21:23, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Have you checked "common usage" in the contemporary newspapers of all the presidents for their nicknames before they became famous?The source says that he had this nickname before he became famous enough to warrant a mention in the NYT, also the NYT was not covering the isolated part of the country where he lived at the time. Other nicknames on the page are just as deragotory but horrible referencing. I haven't used a myspace page as a reference you know, "The years of lyndon johnson" is probably the most exhaustive biography of him out there. Some reviewers consider it a bit biased against him in his later years but I don't think any of them would doubt the facts in the book.--Profitoftruth85 (talk) 21:47, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * (EC)talk:John J. Pershing - we just went through a long and painful fight over discussion of this kind of thing, with a clear consensus that a local derogatory nickname might merit a mention in the body of an article if it in itself were notable. That would not seem to apply here.  Also just because wp:other stuff exists doesn't mean it is good stuff.  It is true that offensive nicknames are likely to get more attention than others.-  Sinneed  21:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to say that it is notable but I don't think anybody wants to hear the argument regardless of its merit. I'm not going to be able to edit the article again anyway so don't take my word for it, rent it from the library and read that chapter and the next one (pages 141-165) and tell me you don't agree with its inclusion. Just because it involves a swearword like "Bullshit" doesn't mean it shouldn't be included.--Profitoftruth85 (talk) 00:32, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Title is misleading
The current title of this article, "List of Presidents of the United States by nickname", does not accurately describe its contents. This list is not sorted (or even sortable) by nickname. Titles which currently redirect to this one include: I propose moving this article — and redirecting all of the above titles — to "List of nicknames of United States Presidents". Objections? - dcljr (talk) 10:12, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * List of U.S. Presidential Nicknames
 * List of U.S. Presidential nicknames
 * List of United States Presidential names
 * List of United States presidential names
 * List of United States Presidential nicknames
 * List of United States presidential nicknames
 * President nicknames
 * Presidential nicknames
 * Um - this was a change some time back - the real solution is "List of U.S. Presidents with their nicknames"  which would actually be accurate. Collect (talk) 12:10, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Why anyone would even want to sort them by nickname is hard to figure. Looks like the title has been bandied about for awhile. How about "List of U.S. Presidents' nicknames"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:19, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I have been bold and made the move I described above, except that I used the properly capitalized List of nicknames of United States presidents. I have also changed all the section headings to match the individual articles (e.g., "George W. Bush" instead of "George Walker Bush"). This should make it a little easier for editors to link into a section of this one, if desired. I've also changed all the redirects to point to the new title, except one instance where the redirect was protected (request submitted). And I am about to go fix all links to the old section headings from other articles. Anyone who wants to undo my changes is going to have to feel strongly enough to undo all of them... Sorry. [w] - dcljr (talk) 06:24, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

"Shrub"
Political commentator Molly Ivins often referred to George W. Bush as "shrub," in reference to his (one-time) stature less than his father's. I do not think she made it up and I am certain she is not the only person to use the expression. 165.91.64.147 (talk) 23:25, 31 December 2009 (UTC)RKH


 * Been discussed before. Look in archives. Collect (talk) 18:44, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I have to say that the argument that "Shrub" is not common is a rather tenuous one. This list is full non-notable nicknames.  I implore you to ask those who follow politics who "Shrub" is, then ask them what "The Careful Dutchman" means.  I think you will find that "Shrub" is much more commonly understood than a large number of these entries.  If they are concerned about being offensive to the legacy of Mr. Bush (as in the discussions cited by Collect), please see pejorative names such as "President Malaise", "Slick Willy", or "Tricky Dick", or "That Man in the White House", all of which are listed here. 174.31.231.72 (talk) 20:17, 6 February 2011 (UTC)


 * So far no one has shown anything at all to show "common usage" for the nickname. The older nicknames are all sourced to books about the person, and indicate that the auther of the book was not creator of the name.   I suggest you look at the caliber of cites now present in the article.  This has absolutely nothing to do with partisan positions at all.  In most cases, the nicknames were common during the life of that president, so we would not expect most people to know where Fillmore came from, for example. Collect (talk) 22:15, 8 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I've found an earlier use than the Molly Ivins book for "Shrub" for George W. Bush: "The Lone Shrub State: The inauguration of little George Bush is a return to sexist, racist, fundamental normalcy in Texas: Christine Biederman reports". The Village voice, v. 40, no. 6, (February 07, 1995): 41.  In addition, I believe that the term is used much more widely than just by Ivins. Giles Martin (talk) 15:18, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * And so far still no cites for it being in widespread common usage.    Note also that this applies to improper nicknames for BHO, LBJ, HCH and all other presidents.     It is a limit placed on this page years ago, and unless you can get a consensus for changing that on this page, we are stuck with it.
 * It sounds like it could have been reasonably well-known in Texas, especially during Bush's rise to the governor's office. It occurs to me that if it were nationally so familiar, the move would have been called "Shrub" instead of "W". In fact, was "Shrub" even mentioned in that movie? Oliver Stone is not known for pulling punches. If he had little or nothing to say about "Shrub", that might suggest its relative usage. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:28, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * News searches for the period do not suggest any common usage during the governorship of W.  implies that the name calling by Richards may have cost her the election.  Bunch oof cites for Richards using the epithet, but nothing to show any ordinary people used it.   If we use all the names used in political ads, this will get to be a very long list indeed. Collect (talk) 21:55, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Dubya
This is incorrect. This nickname is actually "W." As a frequent user of the spelling "Dubya," I think it is broadly understood that this is a pejorative misspelling of the nickname "W," used not only by haters but originally as W from within his own circle. During the campaign it was usually still spelled W even when pronounced "dubya." Clinton's staff reportedly removed the W's from the keyboards in the White House as a last prank. I don't have references, but this is obviously true and the "Dubya" spelling is obviously an intentionally pejorative misspelling of a legit lifelong nickname. Rubypanther (talk) 17:06, 8 June 2011 (UTC)


 * It is, however, in "common usage" even making the New York Times etc.    We try to keep purely obvious polemical nicknames out, but the overriding criterion is "common usage" other than in a purely partisan setting.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Bill Clinton: The MTV President
The sourcce says: It does not seem to be used as a nickname in the source, and there's only the single citation. Any objection to deleting it?  Will Beback   talk    02:10, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The MTV President, following his saxophone performance on The Arsenio Hall Show
 * Religious conservatives see Clinton as the MTV president who rubs elbows with the Hollywood and Manhattan elite they consider responsible for an increasingly vulgar and sexually obsessed culture. 


 * I deleted it - it is not referred to as a nickname in the cite, and certainly does not meet the standard of "widespread contemporary use" either. Collect (talk) 02:25, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * OK. BTW, how are we defining "widespread contemporary use"?   Will Beback    talk    02:34, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Truman: "High-Tax Harry", "The Senator from Pendergast", "Mister Missouri"
I gather than partisan or pejorative names are being removed. Both of these qualify. The source for the first one says it was used by Republicans as an attack. The second is also a derisory reference to Truman's one-time benefactor. The third item is described, in the source as a nickname used in Latin America (presumably in Spanish - perhaps "Senor Missouri"). Does usage in a distant continent, in a different language, count as widespread use?  Will Beback   talk    03:03, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Removed.   Will Beback    talk    01:57, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Franklin Roosevelt: "That man in the White House"

 * That Man in the White House or That Man, used by opponents who refused to say his name.

The first source says:
 * Indeed, so angry were many Republican businessmen at Roosevelt that they refused even to say the President's name, referring to him simply as "that man in the White House.

The second source says:
 * The nickname was, particularly during the New Deal years of FDR's first two presidential terms (1933-1941), the moniker that FDR-haters used to express their loathing.

It appears to be a strictly partisan usage. Thoughts?  Will Beback   talk    03:16, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Removed.   Will Beback    talk    01:58, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Andrew Jackson: "Sharp Knife"
I don't know exactly how many Creek there were in 1814, but I'd guess that it was a limited group isolated from the general American population and that as a result this was not a "widespread" usage. Does usage among a defined demographic group qualify?  Will Beback   talk    03:46, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Sharp Knife Given to him by the Creek Indians whom he fought in 1814
 * Also, Jackson was elected President in 1828, 14 years after the date in this text. It might not fulfill the "at the time they were in office" criterion either.   Will Beback    talk    09:38, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Removed.   Will Beback    talk    02:05, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Nixon: The Mad Monk
These aren't good sources: Spartacus has been deemed a poor source at RSN (though here it's just being used for what may be a copyvio), and the other link source seems to be some person named "Ginger" replying to a newspaper column. I've found a better source, but a nickname used just by one aide, or even by several, would not seem to meet the "widespread" standard. Confusingly, I've also found a source for the nickname being used for one of Nixon's speechwriters, John McLaughlin. [And just a few years later it was an epithet for Califorina Governor Jerry Brown.]   Will Beback    talk    06:46, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The Mad Monk Given to him by White House aide John Ehrlichman.
 * The Education Forum: A Forum for Teachers and Educators (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKehrlichman.htm) containing an extract from H. R. Haldeman’s The Ends of Power,. A web page (http://fornits.com/anonanon/my-mud.htm) by Herb Taylor of the Galveston Daily News (Texas), written on November 5, 2000
 * Removed.   Will Beback    talk    02:08, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

McKinley: The Advance Agent of Prosperity

 * The Advance Agent of Prosperity, From supporters claiming McKinley's tariff and monetary policies would restore prosperity after the deep depression that began in 1893.
 * http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/presidents/WilliamMcKinley/

The source says: There's no indication that this was a nickname. It's more like a campaign slogan. Does anyone have a source which calls it a nickname, and that it was used by anyone besides Mark Hanna?  Will Beback   talk    07:24, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * At the 1896 Republican Convention, in time of depression, the wealthy Cleveland businessman Marcus Alonzo Hanna ensured the nomination of his friend William McKinley as "the advance agent of prosperity."
 * Removed.   Will Beback    talk    02:09, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

...at the time they were in office...
The criteria for this list are that the names have to be 1) "in common usage"  2) "at the time they were in office or shortly thereafter". Yet many of the nicknames appear to be from schooldays or other periods well before their presidency, and two (not already mentioned above) are explicitly described as being used by a limited group. Here's a list: Do all of these meet both criteria?  Will Beback   talk    08:48, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Barry, a childhood nickname.
 * Boy Governor[10][11][12] a reference to his youth during his gubernatorial era.
 * Gloomy Gus[28] Another nickname awarded by his fellow students at Duke University School of Law, referring to his serious nature
 * Iron Butt[29] Law school nickname because he studied so hard
 * Bullshit Johnson[32] (Bull Johnson in public) Lyndon Johnson had a reputation for boasting at San Marcos College
 * The Kansas Cyclone[40] His football nickname at West Point
 * Old Bill[59] His nickname at Yale University
 * The Cyclone Assemblyman[61] Elected to the New York State Assembly at only 23, he campaigned energetically against political corruption and for civil service reform, becoming minority leader within a year
 * Old Four Eyes[64][dead link] He was so myopic that he could only function wearing glasses
 * Teedie[69] He was nicknamed "Teedie" at ten months old and the nickname was used by his family.
 * The Major[70] A reference to his American Civil War rank: used by friends and family rather than publicly
 * Sam[90] Given to him at West Point because of his 'Uncle Sam' initials

I'm presuming that this nickname was acquired by John Quincy Adams well after his presidency, so I'll add it to the list.  Will Beback   talk    09:03, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Old Man Eloquent or The Abolitionist famed for routinely bringing up the slavery issue against Congressional rules, and for his role later on in the Amistad case. He is the only American President to be elected to the House of Representatives — where he earned his nicknames — after his Presidency
 * PS: (If I read this source correctly, he was give the "Old Man Eloquent" nickname by "northern papers" in 1842 or 1843, at least eight years after he left the presidency. In politics, eight years isn't "shortly thereafter". He might have gotten his other nickname, "The Abolitionist", earlier.)   Will Beback    talk    09:19, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The Adams were all abolitionists AFAICT - and the fact that JQA served in federal office after his presidency is unusual -- thus his nickname noted as being contemporaneous. I persopnally think the Amistad case alone justifies the nickname - is there any reason not to include it?  The problem had been that people invented nicknames in some cases a hundred years after the person died - and it is unlikely the person would have answered to it. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:30, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The Amistaad case occurred well after Adams' presidency, not 'shortly thereafter'. Any other objections? Otherwise we should remove these.    Will Beback    talk    12:38, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The nickname was CONTEMPORANEOUS with his life. Meanwhile, when you go about tagging links, why not engage in two minutes of finding a RS replacement?  I am not trying to track the spoor of tags.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:45, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * No, the criterion is contemporaneous with his presidency. For him and the other entries posted here.   Will Beback    talk    12:51, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I rather think the intent was to include the nicknames in the article at the time "shortly thereafter" was inserted. In any case, it now reads "during their lifetimes." Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:57, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * These are 'presidential' nicknames, not after or before presidential nicknames.   Will Beback    talk    13:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

And the wording is "in office" not "while President"', Will. You arguments are tendentious here - especially with labelling "dead links" without making any effort to find a current link. Cheers - but I am done here -- congrats. Remove any nickname you wish, add any you wish. Cheers - you win. Collect (talk) 13:19, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually I fixed quite a few links that had gone dead.   Will Beback    talk    21:35, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The "office" in question is obviously the presidency. This is not a list of presidential and congressional nicknames.   Will Beback    talk    01:04, 5 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The only ones on the list that have been contested are the JQA nicknames. If there's nothing else to say I'll delete the rest.   Will Beback    talk    22:04, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Done.   Will Beback    talk    21:09, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Chronological order
The usual practice on Wikipedia is to sort events in chronological order. Manual of Style/Stand-alone lists. Is there any reason to maintain this list in reverse chronological order?  Will Beback   talk    11:08, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It has been this way since it was started. It allows readers to see the current nicknames without scrolling down to the bottom and them moving up past the reflist.  If one looks at the nicknames which are most likely to be of interest - it makes sense to place them in the most accessible place.  If you wish to assert, hypothetically,  that more people are interested in Millard Fillmore than in Bill Clinton, I would like to see a solid reason for changing the status quo. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:26, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Status quo counts for zip. The issue is compliance with WP standards. Readers of this list are no more likely to have special interests than readers of other lists. If there is no claim to uniqueness for this article we should put it into the usual chronological sort order.   Will Beback    talk    12:41, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Try for a consensus then. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:46, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Point to it. I don't see any significant discussion of the issue. Failing that, let's comply with the sensible and universal guideline. Why shouldn't Washington be first?   Will Beback    talk    12:49, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Get consensus first, Will. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:57, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * There's already a project-wide consensus on how to sort chronological events. We do it chronologically. What a surprise!  Will Beback    talk    13:04, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The Imperial We always makes me snicker, Will.  Cheers - but remember to get a consensus first.  Collect (talk) 13:10, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Where is the consensus to go against usual practice and follow reverse chronology? This seems like a fairly minor issue. This article isn't exceptional. It's a list of trivia about US presidents. Big whoop.   Will Beback    talk    13:13, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Anyone who wants to contradict project norms has the burden of proof to show why their version is better.   Will Beback    talk    13:16, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The list was created nearly 8 years ago, by a still-active user named . It would be interesting to ask him/her why they created it in reverse chronology. [Which I have just done.] In any case, if it's been this way for 8 years, then that's the "consensus version", fer shur. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:11, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * No, the status quo is not consensus, unless it's been agreed to at some point. Nobody here is suggesting any good reason for keeping it this way.   Will Beback    talk    21:42, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * 8 years is a pretty fair implied consensus. But maybe it could be changed. That's why I've asked the original article creator what he had in mind. However, his most recent edit was the 30th, so no way to know when he'll get back. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:11, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing the creation of the list predates the guideline. It's not a big deal, but while we're fixing up this article we might as well bring it into compliance.   Will Beback    talk    22:49, 4 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I created this page (and I'm a girl, FWIW). I don't recall clearly how this page happened, but I'm reasonably sure I forked it from another page and that's why it's in reverse chronological order; whoever created *that* list had it structured that way. FWIW, I think it should be in chronological order, as are most of the other POTUS lists. Totally not helpful, right? :) Good luck guys. jengod (talk) 03:28, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If there's nothing else to say I'll re-sort the article to bring it into compliance with the content guideline, as the other presidential lists already are. Category:Lists relating to the United States presidency.    Will Beback    talk    21:55, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Done.   Will Beback    talk    01:58, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Carter: President Malaise
This is clearly a derisory partisan label. We only have one source which does not establish common usage.  Will Beback   talk   
 * President Malaise - a reference to his speech on July 15, 1979, where he talked about a "crisis of confidence," and suggested that the US was in decline.
 * Removed.   Will Beback    talk    21:51, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Benjamin Harrison: Kid Gloves Harrison
The source says: If so, this is a political attack rather than a neutral nickname. Also, the gubernatorial campaign was about 12 years prior to his presidential inauguration, meaning it would not meet the "at the time they were in office" criteria.  Will Beback   talk    21:58, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Kid Gloves Harrison He was prone to skin infection and often wore kid gloves to protect his hands
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=HKBFgjrulnUC&pg=PA40 Benjamin Harrison: centennial president] Anne Chieko Moore, Hester Anne Hale; Nova Publishers, 2006 178 pages page 40
 * Political opponents during the 1876 Indiana governor's election dubbed him the aristocratic "Kid Glves Harrison," to turn working class voters against him.
 * Removed.   Will Beback    talk    21:52, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Sources for explanations
The practice on this article has been to place the footnotes immediately after the nickname, rather than after the explanation for it. In some cases, the cited sources have explanations but in other cases they do not. It seems like the requirement for verifiability should also apply to that text. As I review the article, I'll move citations to the end if they support the explanation, and add cite requests to those explanations which have no source. Just to be clear, that will result in entries which have citations following the name and a cite request following the text.  Will Beback   talk    02:09, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Lyndon Johnson: Light-Bulb Lyndon
Sources, say that this nickname was used by Republicans, or even that it was coined by his political rival Barry Goldwater. Another source says it was part of an anti-Johnson slogan. Clearly, it was intended as a derisive nickname for use by political partisans.  Will Beback   talk    01:07, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Light-Bulb Lyndon Nicknamed so because he hated wasting electricity, and would often storm around the White House shutting off unnecessary lights.
 * http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=26150 Presidency project at ucsb
 * But it got genuine widespread usage. Else we should also remove "Tricky Dick" and some other such nicknames which also had partisan origins, but which achieved common usage.  Ought we do that?  IIRC, "Landslide Lyndon" was also derisive.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:51, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
 * How do we determine "widespread usage"? (I asked this once before, but didn't get a response.)   Will Beback    talk    23:51, 9 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Criteria used in the past have been "substantially more than single mentions" in major newspapers other than articles attributing the nickname to a single source, and contemporary books from the time of the president.  "Honest Abe" fills the bill, and is about as useful an example as one can find.  Some of the ones furnished for some 19th century presidents are obscure, but not worth fighting over as a rule.   The idea is that if the person while living would never have heard the nickname applied to himself, it is not likely a true nickname.  Derogatory name-calling has been around for centuries, but that does not mean that an encyclopedia article need include "Monkey Man" and the like - the value to readers for such is de minimis entirely.   Hence the useful guide of "common usage" which pretty much precludes the most egregious examples of name-calling.  This has been a very bipartisan consensus here for a long time now.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:32, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I have no objection to criteria like "widespread usage", "while in office", and "non-pejorative". We just need to define and enforce those objectively and consistently. How common a usage is needed to determine "widespread usage"? A single appearance in reliable published sources? Ten appearances? A hundred? A thousand?
 * As for "Tricky Dick", I agree that's derisive too.   Will Beback    talk    01:58, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Ditto "Landslide Lyndon".   Will Beback    talk    02:08, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually "Landslide Lyndon" was in wide use by his friends in Texas as well -- not sure how pejorative it was. I rather think they reach the "reasonable limits" as to what should be in the list - and I rather think we should try to make the list as usable as possible for the next generation of schoolkids, rather than use political games making "good guys" have "nice names" and "bad guys" have Dan-Savaged names.  I have generally used NYT etc. to see if they routinely use a name - the NYPost etc. using derisive names I tend to devalue a hair (tabloids in general tend to use "colorful" nicknames for anyone the publisher dislikes).  Names found in a single article or book, especially where they ascribe the origin to a specific person pushing the nickname, I tend to think are not "common usage."  Generally, I think being careful with the names allowed is common sense.    Cheers. Collect (talk) 02:46, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what standard we're following. I gather that "Shrub" and "Raygun" have been excluded so it seems like any nicknames which have less common usage than those would also be excluded as well. Does that sound legitimate? Let's see if we can establish that "Light-Bulb Lyndon" was indeed in widespread usage. Otherwise it should be removed as a derisive term created by his political opponent.   Will Beback    talk    04:37, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Google News archive only has a couple of entries, so far as I can tell.   Will Beback    talk    04:43, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Google Scholar has about zero hits.   Will Beback    talk    04:54, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Google Books shows six hits.   Will Beback    talk    04:55, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The NYT has only one entry. It's from April 12, 1964 and is reported as a slogan on placards carried by members of the Citizens Council, an anti-integration group. As for two other news sources with archives I can access, I can't find any entries in the Los Angeles Times or Time magazine.   Will Beback    talk    05:20, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually I find quite a few newspaper and book entries - though I might not have added the nickname myself, it certainly has a lot of sources - including, , , articles in the Boston Globe, LA Times, Chicago Tribune, several dozen smaller newspapers (and not all from the 1964 campaign for such mentions)  etc.   Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:56, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The underlying Google Books search brings up just 10 hits (four more than I got) from which you cited three. One of those you cited is self-published, FWIW. The first link you cited says that it was used by by critics to tease Johnson. One of the books that shows up is titled Attack politics: negativity in presidential campaigns since 1960, and it says Goldwater relied most on labeling, as in his repeated references to "Light Bulb Lyndon" and his "curious crew." So it is clearly described as a being part of a political campaign against him. Is that the kind of "nickname" we want to include?
 * Where did you find those newspaper mentions? Did you have more luck with Google News than I did?   Will Beback    talk    19:17, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It requires some sites other than Google as well -- including sites which find cross-links etc. as well as individual newspaper search results (a big tool as Google does not do an adequate job on most of them).    One nice site for finding weblinks is Alexa, by the way.   As I said, I was willing in the past to remove nicknames specifically aimed at disparaging ("Landslide Lyndon" was used by his friends, so I think it would survive).   I did not get a consensus to back my position, however.  I would also remove a few of the more arcane ones as being of marginal interest to historians, and of nil interest to readers here.   Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:55, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, which sites did you use?    Will Beback    talk    20:47, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Depending on which search you are asking about - I use Google, Yahoo, Alexa, individual newspaper sites, and a few others. I do not have Lexis which I think you have, mainly because I like finding free sites first .  Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:59, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Links please? I trust you, but I'd like to verify the sources you alluded to.    Will Beback    talk    22:03, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The simple Google news archive gives which also includes the Globe and Tribune cites, Youngstown Vindicator, Star-News,   Sarasota Herald-Tribune,  and on and on. Even Art Buchwald referred to it [http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=LzZiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YEsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7151,5666285&dq=light-bulb+lyndon&hl=en  and many of the references are post-1964.   ascribes the nickname to "critics."   Wuld I have added it? Likely not.  Was it worth a fight to delete when there are many cistes around? Likely not.  YMMV.  BTW, I frequently use Boolean searches on sites, that might help you in the future.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:23, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It looks like you searched for ["light bulb" Johnson], which gets a lot of false positives since the alleged nickname was "light bulb Johnson". That gets just four hits. The book you cite covers events of 1964, so I'm not sure why you call it a "post-1964" reference. It sounds like no one here thinks it is worth including, especially since it apparently was used almost entirely by political opponents in the 1964 election and does not appear to have been in widespread usage.    Will Beback    talk    22:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Since I then used reading skills to remove the "false positives" and the cites given are not "false positives" I would suggest that your search skills need improving .  Google is funny that way on a lot of searches.  And usage in the 1980s is a teeny bit after 1964.   Remove it if you like, but remove the other derogatory nicknames which made their way into the list whilst you are at it. Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:17, 10 October 2011 (UTC) And the nickname of "light bulb johnson" is not in my search - that is what you searched for? Collect (talk) 23:18, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Just pointing me to a vague Google search isn't really helpful. Please post some citations. As for the rest of the nicknames, I'm working on the list and have removed many already. I'm not sure why many of them were here in the first place.   Will Beback    talk    23:26, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I gave results - that you seem focussed on the exact searches used is irrelevant -- I use various ones (up to 10 or more variants) and then manually examine the results. Any single search can well miss some entries which are relevant -- Google != Internet Ghod.   Which, AFAICT, is "best practice."  Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:24, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * We still haven't shown that this nickname was ever in widespread usage beyond Johnson's political opponents. It should be deleted if citations can't be provided.   Will Beback    talk    19:39, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * As I was not the one who added it, I really do not give a damn. It is, however, sourced -- which is better than many of the older "nicknames" in the list were.  "Landslide Lyndon" was in the list essentially from the start.  As was "King of Camelot."  "Light Bulb Johnson" sometime in 2007.  And so on.  I arrived here in late 2008, and you likely should look at  to see what the article looked at before I came on the scene.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:58, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If you don't give a damn, and if sources can't be found to show widespread usage, then we should delete it regardless of who added it. It was coined as a political attack and received little if any use outside of that context.   Will Beback    talk    20:01, 11 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Strictly original research, but I don't recall "Light Bulb Johnson" getting hardly any coverage, while "Tricky Dicky" was well-known. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:34, 10 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Removed.   Will Beback    talk    23:17, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Kennedy: The King of Camelot
While it's common enough to see the Kennedy administration or White House to be referred to as "Camelot", was this an actual nickname that achieved widespread usage?  Will Beback   talk    23:42, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The King of Camelot Two weeks after Kennedy’s assassination, his wife, Jacqueline, revealed that the score from the 1960 musical Camelot had been one of her husband’s favorites to listen to. Parallels were then drawn between the “one brief shining moment” of King Arthur’s reign (in the musical) and the mood of idealism and optimism that had characterized Kennedy’s presidency.
 * I don't think so, but if so, it would be interesting to see some, i.e. multiple, independent sources. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:51, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Again - one which was provided in the past with at least one source - but I rather think t was not in "common usage" though decidely not derisory. Let's get rid of derisory ones first would seem to be a reasonable start.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:37, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, except maybe where widely used. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:41, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If we can't find a source for widespread usage (or even any usage) then we should delete it.   Will Beback    talk    02:21, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Then delete "Camelot" - seems rational enough. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:22, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Done.   Will Beback    talk    23:17, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

JQA
Apparently, long before TR, John Quincy Adams used "JQA" - likely needs some research ut I easily found  "A Journal By Me - JQA". states that he frequently referred to himself as "JQA." more references to "JQA". I think this well antedates "TR", no? Collect (talk) 21:15, 12 October 2011 (UTC)


 * In the modern books it looks like the authors are using "JQA" as an abbreviation for their own convenience rather than asserting that it was a common name. The other book includes copies of his letters. If he signed his name "JQA" that would not necessarily mean that it was a nickname in widespread usage. But if it was widely used during his time in office then we should add it.   Will Beback    talk    21:40, 12 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Definitely in use within his family, to be sure. And pretty logical to distinguish himself from his dad, when you look at it.   What we need would be newspaper usage, which would clinch the matter.  Any shot of you having access to Philadelphia, NY  or Boston papers circa 1824?  Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:52, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Better than a single newspaper source would be a secondary source saying something like, "a common nickname for Adams was..." or "the first president known by his initials was..." Which source said it was used within the family?    Will Beback    talk    22:00, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Henry Adams definitely did - and it appears some others also used it. There is no doubt he signed with his initials.  In fact, a full "John Quincy Adams" signature is much rarer than "J. Q. Adams".  The issue is about old newspaper usage - if they used the initials, that would be significant.   BTW, entertainment features are not noted for any research .  "Ike" was used during WW II, hence not from "I Like Ike."    FDR was sometimes called "Delano" in his family (he wore dresses as a youth).  In any case, I would trust an old newspaper before a syndicated entertainment column.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:34, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Here is what might be a syndicated feature, from the Montana Standard - February 2, 1964, Butte, Montana. "Queries and Replies Distinctly Pronounceable Is JAG By LEWIS T. POOLE Q. Who started this business of calling Presidents by their initials?—ABIE SEE. R. The practice appears la have started with Theodore Roosevelt, who was often called TR. It came into full vogue with Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who was called FDR as often as he was called anything, if we except some of the nouns and adjectives, or combinations thereof, frequently applied to him by Republicans and dissident Democrats. Harry S. Truman is commonly called HST. He uses the middle initial without knowing—in fact, he doesn't know yet— what S stands for. Seems he had one grandfather named Shippe and another named Solomon, and a family dispute developed over which grandfather his parents had in mind when they bestowed the middle initial. Dwight David Eisenhower is never Called DDE, always Ike. He and/or his political strategists may have feared the easy transition to DDT, a thing above which Democrats could not be trusted to remain elevated. JFK and LBJ quickly came into vogue with the accessions of John Fitzgerald Kennedy and Lyndon Baines Johnson. In the event the Republicans should elect a President soon, we could have NAR from New York or BMG from Arizona—although Barry M, Goldwater seldom uses his middle initial.

Should Rockefeller become a President, his three initials would be one of the few such in our history to form a pronounceable combination. You certainly cannot make a pronounceable word or syllable—not in this language, anyway—of JQA, for John Quincy Adams; MVB for Martin Van Buren, WHH for William Henry Harrison; JKP, for James Knox Polk; RBH, for Rutherford Birchard Hayes; SGC, for Stephen Grover Cleveland; WHT, for William Howard Taft; TWW, forThomaj Woodrow Wilson; WGH, for Warren Gamaliel Harding; JCC, for John Calvin Coolidge, HCH for Herbert Clark Hoover."

It goes on and on without saying anything more of interest. But it does support the view that Roosevelt was the first to be know by his initials. The Access Newspaper Archive nominally goes back to 1607, and I can find numerous articles from his lifetime, but none that use JQA, though I may have missed something as there are lots of false positives due to OCR errors.  Will Beback   talk    22:11, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Cleveland: the hangman of Buffalo
This appears to be a simple political attack rather than a nickname in widespread use. It's clearly derisive.  Will Beback   talk    23:30, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "the hangman of Buffalo"
 * The Democratic strategy was to describe Blaine, who in the face of much hard evidence blandly denied that he had sold political favors, as "the continental liar from the State of Maine" and to stress Cleveland's honesty and efficiency. In this way they hoped to appeal to the Mugwumps and other voters dismayed by Blaine's unsavory reputation and to paper over divisions within their own ranks on issues such as the tariff and currency reform. The Republicans countered by calling Cleveland "the hangman of Buffalo" because, while sheriff, he had personally hanged two criminals rather than turn the task over to an assistant.
 * Are there any other sources using this nickname? if not then id say it does not count.P0PP4B34R732 (talk) 04:22, 13 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I've removed that and also this:
 * The Beast of Buffalo[1] Because of false rumors that he was a wife beater, spread by political opponents during the 1888 election
 * I'll take a second look at the other nicknames for Cleveland later.   Will Beback    talk    17:13, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Hayes: President De Facto, etc
This is yet another set of derisive epithets bestowed by political opponents. No indication they were used widely outside that context. The Stanford Daily is a poor quality article, a Valentines Day piece about which president might have made the best lover.  Will Beback   talk    00:27, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * President De Facto, His Fraudulency, Rutherfraud Hayes, Boss Thief,  The Great Usurper and Old 8 to 7- in response to the disputed election against Tilden.
 * The Stanford Daily, February 16, 2007, “Hayes: He’s no ‘fraud’ in the art of love’ by Kat Lewin (http://www-daily.stanford.edu/article/2007/2/16/hayesHesNoFraudInTheArtOfLove) http://web.archive.org/web/20070820223100/http://www-daily.stanford.edu/article/2007/2/16/hayesHesNoFraudInTheArtOfLove
 * The public gave him the razzing of a lifetime, calling him mean names like “Rutherfraud” and “President De Facto.”
 * Not all Democrats were reconciled. Some of them contemptuously dismissed Hayes as "Rutherfraud Hayes", "the Fraudulent President", the "Usurper", "the Boss Thief", and "Old 8 to 7".
 * Not all Democrats were reconciled. Some of them contemptuously dismissed Hayes as "Rutherfraud Hayes", "the Fraudulent President", the "Usurper", "the Boss Thief", and "Old 8 to 7".


 * Remove all the derisive ones - and if you wish to keep one, mark each such as "derisive by opponents." Sounds fair? Collect (talk) 04:19, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * There are endless derisive nicknames for most all of them. The only ones that should be kept would be those in wide circulation. Tyler was called "His Accidency", for example. And Nixon was certainly well-known as "Tricky Dicky". FDR was "that man in the White House". Off the track a bit, I recall that JFK and LBJ worked well (as with RFK) because they were easy to make slogans from. In contrast, someone joked in 1968 that "All the Way with RMN" just didn't have that same ring to it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:57, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Removed.   Will Beback    talk    17:14, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

More derisory nicknames

 * The Duke of Braintree (derisory) A sarcastic reference to his grandiose airs
 * King John the Second (derisory)
 * His Rotundity (derisory), for being rather overweight and fond of formal titles
 * Mad Tom (derisory)
 * The Negro President (derisory) For his victory in the election of 1800, won because of the three-fifths compromise.
 * King Andrew (derisory)
 * Granny Hayes and Queen Victoria in Riding Breeches He was too active and legislative a president for some people's tastes
 * Wobbly Warren (derisory)
 * Tricky Dick (derisory) From a Democratic Party ad leading up to the 1950 U.S. Senate election in California saying "Look at 'Tricky Dick' Nixon's Republican Record."
 * The Teflon President (derisory) Because none of the scandals afflicting his administration seemed to stick to him personally.
 * Slick Willie (derisory) Coined by Paul Greenberg of the Pine Bluff Commercial newspaper in 1980.
 * Teflon Bill (derisory) Similar to "Teflon Ron" for Ronald Reagan: because none of the scandals afflicting his administration seemed to stick to him personally.

One editor has marked all of these as "derisory". We've previously deleted all such nicknames. Shall we delete these too?  Will Beback   talk    01:04, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Add these to the list:
 * His Accidency Derisive nickname by his opponents (as opposed to "His Excellency", for example), who suggested he could not have achieved the presidency through his own merit, only by accident (succeeding from the Vice Presidency on the death of William Henry Harrison).
 * The Fainting General A sneering reference by political opponents to an incident during a Mexican War battle when an artillery blast blew the saddle off Pierce's horse and drove the saddle-horn hard into his abdomen, causing him to lose consciousness for a few minutes
 * Landslide Lyndon Sarcastic reference to the hotly-disputed 87-vote win that took him to the Senate in 1949 which became more appropriate following his landslide victory in the 1964 presidential election.

These were already described as "derisive", "sneering", or "sarcastic", and should be treated the same as the rest.  Will Beback   talk    01:13, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually "Landslide" was used by LBJ jimself - and was more "joking" than "sarcastic" but to be honest - I have no problem with elimination of the lot. They are clearly derisory and used by opponents, and would not (presumably) be answered to by the person involved. Cheers. Collect (talk) 09:29, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * What source do we have for LBJ using the nickname himself?   Will Beback    talk    18:42, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Removed.  Will Beback   talk    05:38, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Landslide
LBJ Library. Cheers. Collect (talk) 10:08, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * So?   Will Beback    talk    18:42, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I find it unlikely that his Presidential Library would make such a note of a nickname if it were not in common usage - and most such libraries do not promote specifically derisory material about the president they represent.  So? Collect (talk) 22:18, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Not so.    Will Beback    talk    04:05, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think the "Landslide Lyndon" qualifies as derogatory. It was just teasing him for his narrow victory in an ironic way, like nicknaming a large man as "Tiny". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:55, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * We're getting into the dangerous territory of making excuses for material. It's currently identified as "sarcastic". Does anyone think it's affectionate instead? "Teasing" is another synonym for derisory, it seems to me. If we're deleting derisive nicknames this one should go too.    Will Beback    talk    04:02, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If the LBJ Library uses it, it can't be that derogatory or derisive. In contrast, although Nixon was widely known as "Tricky Dicky", I doubt very much if that is played up at his library. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:46, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "If the LBJ Library uses it, it can't be that derogatory or derisive. " - I don't understand the logic. Presidential libraries are operated for the public benefit, not to burnish the memories of their subjects. I'm surprised that editors here are trying to keep a clearly sarcastic nickname on the list. 05:11, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Some books say that, while he used it himself ironically at first, he grew to hate it. He called it "smart-alecky", and became enraged when it was used. It was used by his critics. If we include this then I think we should add back the rest of the derisive nicknames. Either way, we should be consistent.   Will Beback    talk    05:31, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

1. He used it himself. 2. His presidential library mentions it prominently (and for the anonymous editor - yes - presidential libraries tend to burnish the memories of their subjects). 3. Taft, for example, likely hated "Big Lub" but as it is not clearly "derisory" we do not worry about it - it was a nickname which he likely responded to. 4. I have no objection to scrubbing the list provided it is done without fear or favour, equally for all sarcastic nicknames. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:20, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The Nixon Library also mentions "Tricky Dick", which was widely used. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a derisive nickname. I'm not sure how helpful the "responded to" standard would be. I doubt we'd be able to find many references for people responding to any of these nicknames. I think we should handle this the same way we treat other derisive nicknames by removing it. If we ever change the criteria we can add them all back. Speaking of which, we should probably spell out this prohibition in the lead.   Will Beback    talk    00:15, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow -- the Nixon library says Nixon used the name himself? I had not known that. Care to give a cite for that one?  Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:34, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Just because he used it himself does not mean it wasn't derisive - it just means that Johnson had a sense of humor about it, at least for a while.   Will Beback    talk    00:40, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Then just remove all which would reasonably be considered "derisive" and be done. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:44, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Removed.  Will Beback   talk    05:38, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Derisory nicknames
Why are we keeping some "derisory" nicknames (and labeling them as such without sources), and deleting others?  Will Beback    talk    16:51, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "Polk the Plodder" was only found in one major source AFAICT (unless you count the ones which say "some said thus-and such" which hardly qualifies as being "common usage" else we would add "Polk the Mendacious" etc. ) far fewer sources even using Googlebooks than the other nicknames in the list (only 9 results with preview compared with larger numbers for basically all of the others listed).  Did you find any substantial contemporary usage of that name?    Were any names inaptly or incorrectly labelled as "derisory" or "derisive"?   I rather thought I was careful in so labelling them.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:55, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I wasn't speaking of "Polk the Plodder", but rather of additions of "derisory" and the deletion of "Shrub". Do we have sources for marking some as derisory, or are those just our own opinions? Why are we keeping some (apparently) derisory nicknames but deleting others, like "Shrub"?   Will Beback    talk    00:00, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "shrub" has been deleted many times by many people as being only pushed by Molly Ivins and never making it anywhere near "common usage".  Names promoted by a single author, and when referred to elsewhere are described as being from that author, appear to have been one of the clear consensus positions held on this article for a very long time.  IIRC, you made a specific point above that "derisory" nicknames did not specifically belong in this list, so I trust you will be consistent on this.  If you don't give a damn, and if sources can't be found to show widespread usage, then we should delete it regardless of who added it. It was coined as a political attack and received little if any use outside of that context.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:25, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I've asked for the standards that we're using to determine if a nickname is in widespread usage, but never got a definitive answer. I'd be willing to bet that it has wider use than most of these.
 * I'm going to go ahead and remove the "derisory" labels until we get actual sources for them. When we do, it'd probably make more sense to describe their derisive nature in the text.   Will Beback    talk    00:34, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Or, if we agree that the nicknames are in fact derisive then the standard for the article is to remove them, not to label them. Does anyone want to keep any of the nicknames currently marked "derisive"?   Will Beback    talk    00:57, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I've posted the list below for discussion.   Will Beback    talk    01:04, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Since we're deleting the derisory nicknames, we should probably add something about it to the criteria. Perhaps something like "This is a list of nicknames of United States presidents which were in common usage at the time they were in office or shortly thereafter, and are non-derisory."  Will Beback   talk    05:41, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps: "This is a list of non-derisory nicknames applied to Presidents of the United States during their lifetimes, and which attained common usage." The "shortly thereafter" seems quite unnecessary as only one lived long enough to achieve such a distinction, and the nickname there is very notable indeed, as it is related to the history of slavery in the US, and indicates JQA's role in the eventual emancipation of millions. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:00, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The proposal is just to reflect the current standard, not to change it. I'll go ahead and add "non-derisory".   Will Beback    talk    23:57, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Done.   Will Beback    talk    20:34, 7 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Several derisive nicknames still appear, such as  'Theodore the Meddler (derisory)' .
 * I don't understand the rationale of excluding these derisive nicknames, anyway. My opinion is, that the only criterion should be wide spread/general usage (although I'm unsure whether this regards to only contemporary or also subsequent use).
 * Having chosen the "in general use criterion" (this seeming to be the consensus so far), it should apply to both congratulatory and derisive nicknames for all, i.e. the name-calling and derision targeting such different presidents as Nixon and Lincoln (as in the old Cromwell quote: "Warts and all"). :: Of course the problem is verifiability of general use, but this may be weeded out by successive "battles" between "lumpers" and "splitters".
 * Mojowiha (talk) 11:38, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, I don't see any logic in excluding derisory names, and it puts us in the unenviable position of determining what is or is not "derisory". 'Fat Albert' would be insulting to most people named Albert, but clearly not to *all* Fat Alberts. So, we're deciding whether to include a name based upon whether the individual approved of his/her nickname? Just doesn't make sense.JoelWhy (talk) 14:37, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

James Buchanan - 'Ten-Cent Jimmy' derisory
It appears that 'Ten-Cent Jimmy' was a derisory nickname applied to James Buchanan by his oppponent. Should this entry be removed from this list of non-derisory nicknames? Cheers, --AndersW (talk) 19:04, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Walrus
Chester Arthur wore a walrus mustache. He was verifiably called "Walrus". I feel that this should be included. Another editor thinks the list should only include flattering nicknames. Wikipedia is NPOV. It is none of our business whether a nickname is flattering or derisory. The only thing that matters is if we can verify the information. Jehochman Talk 13:58, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm from the TO board. If the nickname is notable and verifiable, I don't see how 'possibly derisory' is a reason to exclude the name.JoelWhy (talk) 14:04, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * See this very talk page for the lengthy discussions about whether to bar derisory nicknames - and the result was the inclusion of "non derisory" in the first sentence of the article. Thus the CONSENSUS here was made and if you wish to seek a new consensus, feel free. Cheers. BTW, your "warning" to me was quite ill-considered, indeed. Collect (talk) 14:05, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I couldn't tell, was this directed at me? I certainly didn't intend to issue any "warning" to anyone, just giving my $.02. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoelWhy (talk • contribs) 14:23, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Check the indents  so it was not aimed at you. The issue is whether the editors at this article by clear consensus above specifically limited the list to "non-derisory" names.  I syggest that the consensus most certainly is documented above.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:27, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Hello, all. I'm an assistant at DRN, and from the direction I see this discussion heading, might I suggest that this could be the appropriate time for a Request for Comments? I think this discussion could benefit from a few opinions from uninvolved editors. Cheers. Sleddog116 (talk) 15:38, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Since there are a number of comments in the fairly recent past indicating a WP:CONSENSUS, unless at least two editors seek to change it, I consider it a teensy bit unlikely to be altered.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:19, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * There are two editors, myself and Jehochman.JoelWhy (talk) 17:21, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * A discussion at an article talk page cannot decide to suspend WP:NPOV. We should list all notable, verifiable nicknames with proper weight.  To list only favorable (or unfavorable) names here would be a mistake as described in WP:CFORK, "A point of view (POV) fork is a content fork deliberately created to avoid neutral point of view guidelines, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts.".  If somebody would like to start an RFC, that would be excellent.  Best case would be to have a neutral party type up a description of the issue. Jehochman Talk 19:26, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Collect, just a reminder - consensus can change. Since the discussion seems to be going downhill (or at the very least approaching an impasse), a third opinion might be useful here.  If it were me, personally, I would be in favor of keeping the non-derisory "policy" (because, in my humble opinion, doing otherwise is likely going to open the door to excessive vandalism and original "hearsay" research).  However, my opinion is predicated by the fact that I have edited the article in that way.  I really do think that an RFC from outside, uninvolved editors would be apropos in this case. Sleddog116 (talk) 19:49, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't really care is we include or exclude derisory nicknames. My chief concern is that whatever criteria we chose is implemented consistently. In the past only derisory nicknames about George W. Bush were being removed while those about previous presidents were left in place. If derisory nicknames are allowed again they must be held to the same standards for sourcing as for any other negative material on Wikipedia. If we're reviewing the criteria, it would be helpful if we had a definition for "common usage".   Will Beback    talk    21:37, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think you can ever get such a specific definition. Clearly, "Slick Willy" should be included for Clinton (in fact, he publicly stated that was his least favorite nickname.) Turd Blossom should be added for Bush (and, that really highlights the problem with including/excluding 'derisory' nicknames -- if you called me "turd blossom," I wouldn't take it as a compliment, but this was an endearing nickname given to him by Rove. So, do we include it because he was ok with it? That seems like a terrible way of determining what to include/exclude.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoelWhy (talk • contribs) 21:43, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Rove hasn't been elected president (yet), so "Turd Blossom" wouldn't be included anyway. But if he were, it probably wouldn't qualify because it was a nickname only used by one person, so far as I know. Getting back to the start of the thread, I'm not sure I see where "Walrus" appears in a source. It's not in Encarta. The other source is viewable in snippets in Google book, but I'm not sure it's there either. A third source doesn't mention it. This is separate from the larger issue of derisory nicknames, so perhaps we should split the thread.   Will Beback    talk    21:52, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Fails verification is a good reason to remove any name from this list. I just don't think we should try to determine which names are positive or negative. If they are notable and verifiable, list them, otherwise don't. Jehochman Talk 22:19, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * A request was made for a third opinion at WP:3O for this topic. I am declining that request, as there are already 5 editors involved in the discussion above.  &mdash;SW&mdash; gossip 23:06, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm going to post a WP:RFC here. I agree with the 3O decision because there are too many involved for that.  However, I stand by what I said about needing outside opinions. Sleddog116 (talk) 15:15, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

RfC: Are derisory names appropriate
See the above discussions. The discussion on this page seems to be divided. The previous consensus was to not include derisory nicknames in the above list. Other editors have expressed a desire to change this consensus, claiming it violates WP's neutrality policy. Valid arguments have been raised on both sides of the issue, so outside opinions would be appreciated. Should the list of presidential nicknames be expanded to include derisory/derogatory nicknames? Sleddog116 (talk) 15:20, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Comments from involved editors
Comment The issue is whether the prior consensus that the list was best limited to non-derisory nicknames in common usage during the life of the president is a proper limitation on this list. Note why this was adopted by looking at, reaching a peak at. By August 2008, a standard of at least having RS sources was adopted. Then reaching a semblance of stability by  3 November 2008. Stable, in fact, until m October 2011 when Will Beback deemed a nickname "partisan" and deleted it. Ditto. It was, in fact, he who iserted "non derisory" per his discussions above. Hope this gives a neutral background to this RfC. Collect (talk) 16:20, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd argue with that account, which is neither accurate nor neutral. But I think the history is immaterial. All that matters in this discussion is the future of this list.   Will Beback    talk    18:50, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Feel free to specify any factual errors in my precis. I rather think the diffs are pretty much self-explanatory. Collect (talk) 21:30, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The history of the list really isn't relevant to its future. We don't need to discuss it further. Let's see what uninvolved editors have to say about the criteria.   Will Beback    talk    21:36, 16 February 2012 (UTC)


 * The primary issue here is, what is this list really supposed to be? Nixon was widely known as "Tricky Dicky". He called himself "Dick", a common nickname for "Richard". And it seems common nicknames are not considered here. But does "Tricky Dicky" qualify as a "nickname", or is it just an insulting reference? Certainly no one would call him that to his face in polite conversation at least. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:32, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The political ad which had been cited was for "Tricky Dick" - but you are hitting the nail on the head. There has been a lot of "name-calling" in politics, but this article was to be about "nicknames" which is a different kettle of fish.  And the history of this article is absolutely relevant to where it should head as an encyclopedia reference. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:35, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. And as for the "Tricky" thing, I heard it both ways when it was a current topic. Country Joe McDonald wrote a song called "Tricky Dicky", with the much-repeated line, "Tricky Dicky from Yorba Linda", that city being Nixon's birthplace. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:39, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
 * There are only a few entries that would have actually been used to the person's face. No one would have said, "Hey you, Era of Good Feelings President" or "Careful Dutchman, please pass the salt". Almost all of these were probably created by journalists who'd never met or spoken to the men.    Will Beback    talk    23:11, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Babe Ruth wasn't called "Babe" by his friends, either. He was called George. Nicknames are often press inventions, as that one was. He still answered to it, though, and signed his autographs that way. Reagan was called "The Great Communicator" by the press, while "Dutch" was an actual nickname. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:06, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I think a major question we have to answer first is whether we are defining 'nickname' as only those names the President was routinely called by other people in-person. For instance, Clinton was routinely called "Bill". Bill is his nickname. "Slick Willy," by such a definition, would not be his nickname. Of course, if this is the definition we are going to use, I say we get rid of this page entirely as it is trivial to a point of absurdity.


 * On the other hand, if we define nickname as a name a President was routinely referred to as (in the press, in person, etc.) at least then we have some encyclopedic information readers may find useful. I haven't heard any convincing arguments as to why the names should only be non-derisory. (Yes, I get it, you'll have people vandalizing and posting names that were used once in passing on some guy's blog who hated President X. Sorry, but I'm guessing we're all involved in editing pages that are routinely vandalized and/or subject to people trying to include poorly sourced info.)JoelWhy (talk) 17:35, 17 February 2012 (UTC)


 * It's also worth reading Nickname. It says that nicknames may be "pointed or cruel", and it identifies as nicknames such derisory terms as "The Angel of Death", "Comical Ali", "Four-eyes", and "Fatso".   Will Beback    talk    23:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
 * But that does not mean WP:BLP would allow "pointed attack names" for any living person without strong sourcing that it is a common usage for the living person involved. Meanwhile, I do not recall Wikipedia articles being valid reliable sources for anything - might you show me where that rule was changed?  Thanks. Collect (talk) 00:15, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
 * No one is suggesting using a Wikipedia article as a source for this article. But, strangely enough, Wikipedia articles often contain worthwhile information. Since we're talking about nicknames, it may be helpful for contributors to this discussion to read more about them.
 * As for "common usage", how do we define that?   Will Beback    talk    00:17, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
 * A reliable source stating that the nickname was in use during the lifetime of the person seems to be the first criterion. Second is that it be noted as being used by a substantial number of people, not just one newspaper, or one sect, for example.  Occurring, found, or done often; prevalent seems not to be too vague, I trust. Collect (talk) 12:52, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
 * How many is a "substantial number"? How frequently is "often"? If it's not vague we should be able to answer those questions precisely.   Will Beback    talk    17:22, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

(od) Let us postulate (though without requiring listing as individual cites in the body of the list) that at least four fully independent sources be available stating that the nickname was used by people such that the president would reasonably have answered thereto during his lifetime would be sufficient. I suggest further that where the "nickname" is found based on a "single original source" that it is unlikely that it can be asserted to have been in "common usage" at all. The dictionaries do not define "often" as "three times" to be sure. Thus if Henry Glimph called President George Gnarph "Frothy Mixture George," and Gnarph would not "answer to" such a name, and all usage traces back to Glimph, that would not rationally meet the "common usage" test. Else we can go back to the "laundry list" of "attack names" which, IIRC, you quite opposed. And which I would suggest would be deletable - the list of actual nicknames is clearly properly encyclopedic, and the topic of reliable sources. Cheers. Collect (talk) 09:23, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I doubt there is single entry which would meet this proposed criteria: "at least four fully independent sources be available stating that the nickname was used by people such that the president would reasonably have answered thereto during his lifetime". Only a few are nicknames by which the persons would ahve been addressed by name, and most of those are alternate names, like "Ike" of "Chet". For example, do we have four citations which show that Washington was addressed to his face as "the father of his country"?   Will Beback    talk    22:28, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually - yes.  cites it to a 1779 almanac, to Henry Knox (citing a specific letter sent to Washington), to poet David Stuart,  correspondence from multiple people, to a Pennsylvania newspaper,   an address from the Mayor of New York,  and so on.  Far exceeding the four independent usages to be documented, and showing that the term was used directly to Washington.  Care to try for another?  By the way, I chose just the one really thorough source - there are a multitude of others.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:08, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * If we go with your proposed criteria, someone will have to find four sources for each entry, each of which will have to say it was used to the person's face. If you think that's a good criteria you can start working on filling in those citations. Few of the existing citations would qualify.    Will Beback    talk    18:30, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Amazing how hard it is to read English sometimes .  I said that we needed independent sources for the common use of the nickname - the one reliable source I gave for Washington shows at least six independent sources for the name being in common usage.  It is hard enough dealing with actual cavils, but ones which do not reflect on what I wrote are much harder to deal with!  A hundred sources which all say "Jess Roe called him 'FrothyMisture" devolve on the single source - "Jess Roe."  One reliable source saying "Jess Roe used the name, as did Mayor George Gnarph, as did Congressman Richard Doe as did Vice President Hector Starph" shows four independent sources for use of the nickname.  Is that now sufficiently clear?  Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:54, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

We usually think of "sources" as being separate sources or citations, not one publication which compiles various views. I think you should re-word your proposal. However I don't think that's a reasonable criteria: it's not based on common editing guidelines. I think a simpler criteria, and one which avoids decision making or original research would be something like this: "Every entry must have a reliable sources which describes it as a nickname for the individual." Would there be any problem with using that as a criteria?  Will Beback   talk    19:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Amazing.  I have made clear that tracing back to a single source does not show any possible claim of a use being common, and you end up apparently conflating "source" of a usage with "reliable source" which are pretty clearly not the same thing when one looks at the context in which I used the word.  And my use of a single "reliable source" to show multiple sources for the nickname for Washington elicited no demurral from you.  Cheers - I think your point has been made and understood. Collect (talk) 19:16, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I think if we can find a single good source for something being a nickname that should be sufficient. That is the standard we'd use for any other article, even BLPs. If a source uses a nickname but doesn't call it that then we're in the position of deciding that it's a nickname, which is original research. Most of the entries in this list have been called nicknames, in many cases in the existing citations, so that wouldn't be a disruptive criteria.   Will Beback    talk    01:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)


 * It still comes back to just what the list is supposed to be. Given the debate, maybe there could be 3 sections for each guy: "Positive", "Negative", and "What they called themselves" or "Known as". For example, William Clinton was known as "Bill" to friends and supporters, and "Slick Willy" to enemies. On the other hand, "Dubya" seems negative and was often used that way, yet it was his own nickname within the family, so it's actually a bit of both. When I was a kid, in our school lunches they had a series of milk cartons with illustrations of Presidents and their best known public nickname or media tag: "Father of His Country", "Honest Abe", etc. I recall especially that W.H. Harrison was labeled "Tippecanoe". Obviously a very well-known public nickname. And Tyler? What do you do with a guy who managed to alienate everyone in both parties during the 3 years and 11 months he served as President, and later served in the Confederate congress? "His Accidency" is probably one of the nicer things they called him, but even that seems a bit strong for a kid's milk carton. The best they could come up with as a nickname for him is "Tippecanoe and Tyler Too". Yup. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:19, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what point you are making about this article and its criteria. Do you think we can find a single source, much less four, which say that anyone called President Harrison "Tippecanoe" to his face? I suggest that a simpler, more practical criteria would be a source which directly calls the name a "nickname". So if we have a reliable source saying that a particular term was a nickname for a president, then we'd include it. That's straightforward. OTOH, if the term is just used as a nickname, without being called a nickname, then that'd require a judgment call on our part and would be best excluded.   Will Beback    talk    07:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Washington is well-known as "The Father of His Country". Lincoln was called "Honest Abe the Rail-Splitter". Do those qualify as "nicknames" in the usual sense of the word? Maybe not. They're more like slogans. But do they qualify for this article? If they don't, then the only "nickname" we could use for Lincoln would be "Abe", and then what's the point of the article? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:40, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh no, you can't include "Abe" for Lincoln, since it was used as a pun on "ape" by his enemies and thus falls under the "no derogatives" rule ;-)
 * Mojowiha (talk) 18:46, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Comments from uninvolved editors

 * This RfC borders on the ridiculous. Relevant content should be included without value judgement. Just off my head, if 'Slick Willy', 'Shrub', or 'Tricky Dick' aren't in this list because they are "derisory", then this list is incomplete, creates a sympathetic POV, and should just be deleted. Politicians get skewered for their mistakes and scandals. It comes with the job. Remove this whole idea that derisory names shouldn't be included. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
 * "Shrub" was removed as it is only connected with Molly Ivin's book and had no actual common usage otherwise. "AWOL Bush", "The Mad Bomber", "Terrible Teddy" etc. were also removed long ago ... The "non derisory" addition is fairly recent - the old standard was common comtemporary use documented in contemporary reliable sources.  Collect (talk) 16:23, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * "Shrub" has been used by plenty of sources independent of Ivins.   Will Beback    talk    23:45, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * No such sources were ever presented to show common usage not connected to Ivin's book. Cheers- I presented plenty of RS material that Washington was called "Father of his country" to his face just above. Collect (talk) 14:12, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * So long as the criteria excluded derisory nicknames there was no point in finding the evidence. But I recently did a search and found dozens of suitable sources. But this discussion isn't just about one nickname. We need to find a rule which can apply to all nicknames of all presidents.   Will Beback    talk    18:26, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Um -- no. The requirement for full reliable sourcing well anteceded your arrival here.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I can add it now with multiple sources.   Will Beback    talk    01:19, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * See Talk:List of nicknames of United States presidents/Shrub for a partial list of available sources.   Will Beback    talk    02:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment - Having read just enough to get the gist of this kerfuffle, I believe basic WP:POLICY should suffice to resolve the difficulty. Where WP:V, WP:RS sourcing must, of necessity, transcend traditional news reportage into the realm of partisan commentary (eg. "Shrub", "Slick Willy"?), it needs to be identified/qualified as such. Perhaps "Partisan Based" or something along those lines might provide an NPOV resolution. JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:42, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that we can require a high standard of verifiability, such as an academic source, rather than a passing mention in news appearances, partisan rhetoric or propaganda. With that cautionary approach, I believe it is necessary to include both positive and negative nicknames on equal basis.  We literally don't care whether the nicknames are good bad or indifferent.  We only care that they can be verifiable.  For instance:  http://books.google.com/books/about/Tricky_Dick_and_the_Pink_Lady.html  Jehochman Talk 20:35, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Alas - the book you cite only avers that Helen Douglas called him "Tricky Dick" which deos not reach a source needed for asserting it was in any common usage. The source, by the way, was a Democratic campaign advertisement (which had been sourced in this list until recently), one of the few times we could actually document a "first use" of a nickname. The propensity now to associate politicians with "frothy mixtures" however means that if we open the floodgates, the next entry will likely call someone "Donkey Punch" as a "nickname." Would you be comfortable with wide-open gates on such? Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Go to Google and search for "Tricky Dick". The first result is our page, Richard Nixon.  It makes no sense to leave this nickname off this list.  It was widely used, is clearly notable and could be reliably sourced. Jehochman Talk 23:50, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Look at where I was the one who initially gave a reliable source - to the ad mention -- which was in this article until recently . It was specifically "reliably sourced" and given the proper origin.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Having not edited this article in over a year, I consider myself uninvolved in the latest disagreement. I am in favor of allowing negative nicknames to be added, under certain conditions. They had to 1) be widely used and 2) be listed separately from the positive names. A few examples: Tricky Dick for Nixon, Granny Harrison the Petticoat General for William Henry Harrison, Slick Willy for Clinton, or Van Ruin for Van Buren. They were all widely used, negative, and attributable to aspects of their presidency or personal life. I would also like to note that negative nicknames are selectively used within the article now... And what constitutes a "negative" or "derisory" name is somewhat ambiguous. This article is "List of nicknames of United States presidents", not "List of positive nicknames of United States presidents". I am no Old Man Eloquent, but I think my point is easy to follow.&mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 20:51, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Per WP:NPOV, I agree that the list should not be limited to only positive content. However, I agree with Charles Edward (article talk page) that the nicknames should be widely used and reliably sourced, and not just a reference made in a news article headline. Additionally, WP:BLP needs to be taken into account and honored.Coaster92 (talk) 21:44, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * We need to keep in mind that the only living people on this list are Carter, Bush, Clinton, Bush and Obama. For everybody else, BLP does not apply. Jehochman Talk 12:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I also agree that we should be open to negative nicknames as well as positive ones - but only if they're well-sourced. I would also caution against recentism - it's easy to pick a headline about some current controversy and use it as a label for a current (or immediately preceding) president but we should try to stick to nicknames that will stand the test of time. bobrayner (talk) 12:15, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Here's an editorial from just today that casually references "Tricky Dick". All the more interesting in that writer Michael Medved is a conservative. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:12, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I suggest we avoid getting too distracted by individual nicknames - this thread covers this issue of all possible derisory nicknames used over hundreds of years.   Will Beback    talk    01:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * You can't list "all possible" derisory nicknames, or the page would turn into an epic. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:25, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I meant this RFC is about setting the criteria which will apply to any and all nicknames we want to include, not just "Tricky Dicky". As for the length of the resulting article, I don't see that as a determinative question. It doesn't matter it this list has ten entries or a thousand, so long as it is compliant with Wikipedia content rules.   Will Beback    talk    01:42, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not quite that simple. You can verify "Shrub", but that doesn't mean it belongs here. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:19, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The point of this RFC is to decide what does belong here. Let's let uninvolved editor give their input on that question.   Will Beback    talk    02:41, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Good luck finding some! This appears to be a rather low-traffic article. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose per BLP. First, I think this article is ridiculous and feel it probably shouldn't exist.  If the consensus is that articles like this one (long lists of useless trivia about living people are okay), then I think BLP suggests that derogatory nicknames shouldn't be included.  If I am wrong about the rules, then I feel the rules need to change, because, again, this article is ridiculous and makes Wikipedia ridiculous. Alex Harvey (talk) 12:34, 2 March 2012 (UTC)