Talk:List of oldest living people by country/Archive 1

Daily update?
This article is created in the intent of its being updated DAILY,on information that simply isn't available or reliable to that extent.I recommend it be deleted.--Louis E./le@put.com/12.144.5.2 02:44, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

AFD debate link
This article has been kept following this AFD debate. Sjakkalle (Check!)  12:10, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Oldest man in Canada?
I was looking through this article, and I noticed that Clarence "Clare" Laking was gone! Why did Ryoung122 remove it? He was the oldest living Canadian man I know I could find on Wikipedia. User:65.93.29.176 8:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between "oldest man you could find" and the "oldest man in Canada." Some nations, like Japan, maintain lists of the "oldest". Others, like Canada, do not.

However, the oldest man in Canada is at least 108.

Ryoung122 09:51, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Oldest living woman in China
I have found an interesting article: http://hk.bcmagazine.net/hk.bcmagazine.issues/bcmagazine_webissue227/03livinglegacy.html

It is about old people, who live in Hong Kong, China. There you can read the story of Lam Po Sin (born in January or February 1898). It is not said in the article, but at age 109, she might be the oldest (or one of the oldest) women in China.


 * Thanks for telling us, but there is in fact an even older candidate for this vacant title here aged 110, dear friend. Extremely sexy 16:36, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if the stuff I put on this page about Nicholas Tseien and Elias Wen was not replaced with the spurious case of Du Pinhua. The Tseien and Wen cases, whilst not yet on GRG, have been accepted on this site as they are both religious men with some records to verify their ages. Conversely, Du Pinhua has no documentation that I am aware of. Captain celery

Let's not call names here. We don't know if Du Pinhua is 'spurious' or not. All we know is that no documents were sent to Guinness London headquarters, but documents were sent to Shanghai. The Du Pinhua case is limited in part by politics. The chances of her being really 120 are not outside the realm of real possibility. Unlike many claims to this age, Ms Pinhua has been shown in pictures as extremely frail.→ R Young {yak ł talk } 08:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well: I have to agree with you. Extremely sexy 14:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, claiming that the oldest person in China is a mere 110 is a bit silly. Considering that the 110-year-old priests are actually peripheral sources (one a Russian-born man, another a Catholic priest) and the main Chinese population has 20,000+ centenarians, statistically there is a 50% chance that China has at least 20 supercentenarians, 10 of which would be 111+, 5 aged 112+, and 2 aged 113+. Thus, to simply attempt to fill in incomplete data with just who happens to be in the news is statistically inaccurate.→ R Young {yak ł talk } 07:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, 'spurious' was the wrong word. I should have used 'dubious'. Just because only one person has been proven to reach the age that has been claimed for Du Pinhua does not mean that the claim is false. But you know better than anyone that extreme frailty is hardly proof of supercentenarian status. Tseien and Wen are probably not the oldest people from China, but then why should we accept that Yone Minagawa is the youngest 'oldest person' for 20 years? Just because the data is incomplete does not mean we put the Pinhua case in that category. Captain celery 13:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

First, who says the two 'priests' are validated? Guinness says that, despite media reports, they don't have any information on the case of Nicolaus Kao Se-Tseien. The family of Elias Wen has so far declined to provide documentation. We have also seen fake 'reverends' in the past (just today, 'Rev.' Toby Crosby, allegedly 122, turned out to be 96, if that). But even if we assume these two men are really 110, it is a stretch to say they are China's oldest person. Consider this one:

http://www.shanghaidaily.com/sp/article/2007/200703/20070308/article_308330.htm

And that's just Shanghai, what about the rest of China?→ R Young {yak ł talk } 23:15, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Indeed so, and, by the way, the typical error of being born in "1885" instead of "1895". Extremely sexy 23:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I already addressed the China issue above. I never said Wen and Tseien were validated, and I didn't add them to the top 10 list of oldest men still alive. I thought the consensus on here was that they were accepted. A month ago you said of Wen, "I think we should add him to Wikipedia. The standards here are slightly lower than the GRG...being a priest, it's likely his entire life has been documented. The GRG issue is...will someone send those documents in? He won't be on the list without them, but we may assume he is 110." Feel free to take them off. I won't lose any sleep over a top 8 or less. Captain celery 02:28, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Captain Celery, this is a no-win situation because people desire answers but those that could participate often don't care. Regarding Elias Wen, Dr. Coles has been told that he doesn't want publicity and thus the family has declined to provide any documentation. Thus, his age is NOT validated. I only added that case as a stop-gap for those who insisted on listing 109-year-olds in the top ten. In reality I prefer a 'top 10 or 110+' format...which means that sometimes it is better to leave the category blank than to fill it with bad data. For Nicolaus Kao Se-Tseien, I have been told by Guinness HQ that they have nothing on this case, newspaper claims to the contrary. Thus, we have a 'newspaper claim.' True, I do believe that this could be a true case, but let's also not forget that China often used the 'when you are born, you are one year old' system (which means this man could be born in 1898 instead of 1897). Thus, even if a Catholic priest, he could be 109...

However, I deleted these from this table because it is too far-fetched to assume we have any handle on who China's oldest person is, when the sources are so peripheral (i.e. representing less than 1/10th of 1% of the population hardly constitutes a representative sample). Thus, for Wiki standards I could accept these cases as 'probably true' individually but not as "China's oldest person," and not as "validated". Again, probably true, but probably also NOT China's oldest person. China's oldest person is 'probably' at least 113...

So, now I ask...which standard would you like on Wikipedia, verified only? Let me know, I can be reasonable. I have explained my point above.→ R <span style="color:#006688; font-family:arial, helvetica;">Young {<span style="font-family:arial, helvetica; font-size:x-small;">yak <span style="font-family:arial, helvetica;">ł <span style="font-family:arial, helvetica; font-size:x-small;">talk } 11:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

You were right to say that Wikipedia has lower standards than GRG. If they were the same, we might just as well have a link to GRG, which in fact only has five of them verified. I think we should also have Moreira (since Breuning is only on GRG), who is listed by Epstein, and Avignon, who I imagine will be validated once GRG do the 1897 births. As for Francis, Wen and Tseien, I leave it up to your discretion. If you feel that the Wikipedia burden of proof has been satisfied, then leave them up. And if Wen didn't want publicity, then why was he photographed for that article? I am nit-picking, but even supercentenarians shouldn't have their cake and eat it.

I could ask which countries can we get a handle on? Where do we draw the line? But this is a slippery slope argument. I accept that China, along with India, is a special case due to their population. For other countries (with the obvious exceptions) I think if we find a living supercentenarian, then we may assume that they are the oldest of their nationality. This is another line we draw. If you're 110 or more, then you may have earned a place in these articles. A mere centenarian, and you're lucky to be included at all, even if you are a male. Captain celery 14:55, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

A lot of this has to do with statistics. For Norway (less than 5 million people) an 'oldest man' of 106 is reasonable (and that's what the data shows). For Canada, I wouldn't do an 'oldest man' unless he were at least 108. Where to draw the line is difficult. Note some zealous adders have put people born in 1902 up, certainly too young yet to be true titleholders. Basically, the 'standard' is consensus. Our Portuguese correspondent tells us he does NOT have the documents for the Portuguese man, but Portugal has a track record of good recent data, which is why I think Wikipedia accepted (also note, Mr. Moreira comes from a 'list' format...a tracking of everyone known in the nation...). Mr Francis we have documents for, but we are waiting for the family to decide if they want him publicly listed (again, having the cake and eating it too...). Yes, Aime Avignon is going to go on the GRG list, it is just a matter of time. I am informed that the documents are in hand.→ <span style="font-family:arial, helvetica; color:#ff0000;">R <span style="color:#006688; font-family:arial, helvetica;">Young {<span style="font-family:arial, helvetica; font-size:x-small;">yak <span style="font-family:arial, helvetica;">ł <span style="font-family:arial, helvetica; font-size:x-small;">talk } 05:06, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


 * But over here he says he's waiting for them, so maybe he will get them. Extremely sexy 14:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Childish making-up of fake data
Greetings, If this is to be an encyclopaedic article, I'd appreciate it if people would refrain from the admittedly-tempting teenage thing of making up fake data. This includes claiming that the oldest man in Canada is 106 or the oldest man in Russia is 106. Statistically, it would be hard to believe that there is not a single 107-year-old man in a population the size of Canada or Russia. We only see 106-year-old titleholders in nations with relatively small populations.→ <span style="font-family:arial, helvetica; color:#ff0000;">R <span style="color:#006688; font-family:arial, helvetica;">Young {<span style="font-family:arial, helvetica; font-size:x-small;">yak <span style="font-family:arial, helvetica;">ł <span style="font-family:arial, helvetica; font-size:x-small;">talk } 07:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Why are only first world countries there?
I know average life expectancies are higher in the first world, but there is a claim that a 128 year-old-woman in El Salvador has just died, so, why aren't claims from other countries mentioned? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.167.210.52 (talk) 15:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC).
 * Only believable ones, and 128 really isn't. Extremely sexy 15:41, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Your edit to living national longevity recordholders
You have recently reverted one of my edits at without any comments in article talk and even edit summaries (per Simplified Ruleset). Could you please clarify it? If not clarified in 7 days, I'm going to put it back. Thanks in advance. --TAG 22:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The reason for it is perfectly clear and simple, dear Sir: he is not validated, so it's only an alleged claim that he would be this old. Extremely sexy 22:48, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * How must it be validated ? Per WP:V I've provided a reliable source: our government has said 3 years ago that he IS oldest one. So far there are no disagreements with this. Who is a reliable source in your opinion ? --TAG 12:54, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Well: do first ask Robert Young, the ultimate source, on his talk page. Extremely sexy 13:30, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Bart, but note that Guinness World Records is the 'final arbiter' by Western tradition. Others, including Louis Epstein, are NOT convinced at all that this man is anywhere near the age he claims to be...in fact scientists see Christian Mortensen, at 115 years 252 days, as the oldest male human ever.→ <span style="font-family:arial, helvetica; color:#ff0000;">R <span style="color:#006688; font-family:arial, helvetica;">Young {<span style="font-family:arial, helvetica; font-size:x-small;">yak <span style="font-family:arial, helvetica;">ł <span style="font-family:arial, helvetica; font-size:x-small;">talk } 06:34, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Just for once a reasonable comment from Robert. Extremely sexy 15:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

19th century
The 19th was from 1801 to 1900 so if there are some persons born in 1900 we can't say "Last living person born in the 19th century" for someone born in 1899... the first century BC was from 100 to 1 and the first centruy AC was from 1 to 100 - there isn't a year 0. My question: Is there any men from the netherlands born in 1900 and still alive? Statistician 07.05.2007 22:37 (CET)
 * The last living Dutchman born in 1900 is Antonius Wilhelmus Arends (20-11-1900). Extremely sexy 23:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

An update
I found a citation, as poor as it is, that will at least allow Van de Voorde-Notteboom to remain on the list. Everyone else listed in my last message has been removed, however, as in the month that I forgot to do this, no improvements were made to their citations. There's still work to be done citation wise, but now there's at least nothing that cannot be at least somewhat verified or sourced. Canadian Paul 18:37, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Paul, I think it's good that you've increased the encyclopedic standard of this page. Just one problem, you removed all of the uncited Danish entries aswell as Martin Gammelgard (sp?) who had a citation. I don't know if you viewed it as unacceptable, but as you said you let van de Voorde-Notteboom stay up with a weak one. 89.240.203.127 04:03, 26 July 2007 (UTC)Captain celery


 * Moreover, why did you delete the very well referenced Australian 108-year-old John Campbell Ross, Paul: explain? Extremely sexy 13:22, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Re: Gammelgaard. Because there is that other unidentified male, there is no proof that he is the oldest, therefore it would just be a guess if we claimed that he was the oldest man on this page. While his existence is sourced, there's no source for a claim to him being the oldest, which also answers Mr. Versieck's question. If there's a source out there's an acceptable source out there that claims or even infers that Mr. Ross is the oldest, I'd welcome him back in. Until then, however, claiming that he's the oldest (even if you somehow know it, like say by a post in the World's oldest people forum), cannot be cited and verified. Even if it was as weak as the oldest Canadian man's, which is pretty weak. Canadian Paul 14:14, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * But there are not that many people in Australia (the country - i.e. continent - is big allright, but it's not highly poulated at all), so chances that there is someone older than him, especially since it concerns males as opposed to females, are next to none really. Extremely sexy 14:40, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I accept your reasoning. Hopefully we can get them back up soon, albeit with acceptable citations. The issue I have now is the note about Rosa Rein's case being unvalidated. I assume you mean by GRG, in which case you will have to add the same note for Augusto Moreira because his isn't either. Alternatively the Rein note could be removed, because I'm not sure that it's right to put a higher burden of proof on supercentenarians than mere centenarians (since their cases will obviously not be scrutinised by GRG) in the same article. 84.13.23.67 03:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)Captain celery


 * Hmmm... I don't recall adding that note but whether it should stay or not is complicated. In the Canadian case, it makes an important difference if we use who is the oldest accepted by GRG (perhaps the leading verification authority) or who is the oldest claimant reported by a news agency (or I suppose... at least it did before Mary Anne Scoles died). In Rein's or Moreira's, it does not. Whatever makes more sense to you, I say do it, but if the decision is to keep, it should be placed on Moreira's as well.

P.S. Nice job on the table! I was thinking it could be done for List of notable last events under the last living WWI veteran section too. I must just get on that soon. Canadian Paul 14:37, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I assumed that you did the note and the table, but obviously not. Anyway, for whoever did do the note, I took it out for the reasons stated above, but I second the praise of the table. 89.242.208.183 22:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)Captain celery


 * Conclusion: I am allowed to reinstate John Campbell Ross right now. Extremely sexy 19:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Bart: To have a conclusion you need premises. Although I was the one who added John Ross after the death of Frank Scarrabelotti, I think the argument would still be that the citation does not claim that he is Australia's oldest man.

Paul: I think that we could leave it at Mary Ray for the moment, but being Canadian you've uncovered some cases and the article is serving as a shop window for verification. Hopefully one of them will be soon and it can be like the Italy section. The death of Mary Scoles has left it a bit messy. They don't need to be confirmed by GRG, just as long as there is a general consensus of acceptance, as with Rein and Moreira. Captain celery 20:45, 29 July 2007 (UTC)Captain celery


 * John Campbell Ross is being removed. If you want my justification, see User Talk:Ryoung122. As for Canada, there's no real need to list the unverified cases - if it helps make the page more neat or more verifiable to remove the three cases and just leave Mary Ray, I wouldn't be opposed to that in the least. Apologies if I am curt, but my internet connection is no good until Thursday/Friday. Canadian Paul 23:06, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

OK I've done that. If they're your cases then you're not going to forget them and might be able to get a more concrete citation. I'm sure they're on Robert's radar aswell. Captain celery 04:45, 30 July 2007 (UTC)Captain celery

Well someone's put them back up again. I know it's a stopgap that wouldn't be necessary if Mary Scoles hadn't died, but it seems a bit unfair on other countries (ie Denmark) which have no entries, when Canada has five. Captain celery 23:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)Captain celery


 * If I'm not mistaken, Mr. Young reverted the Canadian removals when he reverted JCR. I'll remove them again as well. Canadian Paul 05:55, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Now that I think about it, by the logic of removing the Canadian cases, shouldn't we also remove Delfino Borroni? It's not like he has the best of citations anyhow...Canadian Paul 20:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * There are a couple of good citations nevertheless. Extremely sexy 20:48, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I was thinking of removing him more because for every other country, we've only listed the oldest one born there, regardless of if they've moved away (the reason we kept Mary Josephine Ray and removed the other three cases). Lazarre Ponticelli is Italy's Mary Josephine Ray (sort of haha). Canadian Paul 20:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * That's right, but now Bessie Roffey has been validated by Robert, I want to add her again to the list. Extremely sexy 21:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Greetings,

Because people don't agree about how to list someone by nationality who has moved (i.e. Mary Ray), I think it is best to list 'both ways' (if applicable). Thus, if Delfino Borroni is the oldest man born in Italy who actually lives in Italy, listing him for those people who don't consider Ponticelli to be the 'Italian' recordholder makes sense.Ryoung122 10:43, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Good enough then. I'm assuming that if you've validated her, Bessie Roffey will be on the list within a couple of weeks? If so, then we can change the citation then. One last question, for the sake of consistency, shouldn't the oldest native Hungarian be listed too, or is that just an unverifiable mire that we don't want to trek into? Personally I believe the latter, but I thought I'd bring it up. Canadian Paul 17:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Rosa Rein
It does not surprise me, that the 110th birthday of Rosa Rein was not mentioned in the english-speaking web. She is a doyenne of the german-speaking countries and so I searched for a german article, that was published in late March 2007 because of her 110th birthday. Here is the link: http://www.dieneueepoche.com/articles/2007/03/19/99710.html. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.137.70.77 (talk • contribs)


 * Much gratitude anonymous user. That citation does improve the overall quality of this article. Canadian Paul 18:27, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I have searched for Bengt Helldal. I found an article with photo from February 2007, the month he turned 107. Sadly I am not fluent in Swedish, so I only can guess, what the article is about. Here is the link: http://www.svls.se/cs-media/xyz/sls2_07.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.137.114.121 (talk • contribs)


 * Thanks too: it's confirmation of his birthday. Extremely sexy 13:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Cases lacking GRG endorsement
Greetings,

Some cases that are 'lacking' GRG endorsement are simply missing because no one has applied or sent in documentation. However, given that nations like Switzerland have good records, I would say it is fair to assume that Rosa Rhein is 110.

Anyone wanting to apply can e-mail me documents at robertdouglasyoung@yahoo.com

Also, I do expect Mr. Moreira to go on the GRG list 'eventually.' I am waiting for documents to arrive. Sometimes correspondents are busy; I expect more perhaps around his 111th birthday in Oct.Ryoung122 03:12, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Marie-Louise L'Huillier
I assume the reason that this entry, cited from GRG, was removed, is because New Caledonia is a part of France. The query I would raise is that in the 'oldest by country - all time' article, there is a seperate entry for Puerto Rico, which is a part of the US. That is a different article, but I think the two are largely synonymous.

If Emiliano Mercado was still alive, would he be listed for the US, or would he be listed for Puerto Rico, with George Francis for the US? I think it would be the latter, which suggests a certain US bias. There could be a distinction, since Puerto Rico governs itself, whereas New Caledonia does not. On the other hand, New Caledonia will be having a referendum on independence in a few years. This kind of nuance wrangling could go on forever.

It is not like L'Huillier is barely a centenarian. That is obvious since it's on GRG. I wouldn't go searching for the oldest person on every island territory. She's 112, and the 24th oldest person in the world. So I think either the Puerto Rico section, Ramona Trinidad Iglesias-Jordan and Fred Hale should be removed from the 'oldest by country - all time' article, or Marie-Louise L'Huillier should be reinstated. Captain celery 21:55, 31 July 2007 (UTC)Captain celery

Explanation: The U.S. Census Bureau does not recognize Puerto Rico's population as part of the U.S.; neither do its citizens get to vote. France, on the other hand, allows 'overseas departements' (like Guadeloupe, Martinique) to vote and includes their population as part of France's total. If you find out otherwise, then we can reconsider.Ryoung122 22:05, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Well it is an explanation, albeit a somewhat arbitrary one. It's the old chestnut of having to draw the line somewhere. As long as the same rules are adhered to elsewhere then fair enough. Captain celery 23:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)Captain celery


 * I agree with Robert again (write this down) in fact. Extremely sexy 11:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

John Campbell Ross: rethinking this
Greetings,

In regards to John Campbell Ross, I'm not sure if removal is the correct option. Please note that, except for the nations that maintain complete records AND publish a compiled list of the oldest living persons, there is simply going to need to be a certain amount of assumption made. What are the chances there will be someone OLDER found? How old must one have to be before we shift from an assumption that there is someone older to one that there is not? I believe the answer must be a judgment call based upon a nation's population and history. I believe that Mr. Ross, at 108, is old enough to make that assumption. Had he been '102' or even '105', the answer would be 'no.' Otherwise, we might as well delete this whole page.inal Ryoung122 22:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Well this was my original thinking. 20 million people and he's 19 months off 110. What Paul was looking for was an article claiming that he was Australia's oldest man. But then again the much debated Notteboom case has been allowed with an inferior citation.

Incidentally, this is the first time I can remember Robert and Bart agreeing on something. There is hope in the Middle East after all.Captain celery 23:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)Captain celery


 * Indeed: if even Robert and I can agree on something, then also London and Belfast plus Israel and Palestina can. Extremely sexy 11:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure how I can make this any more clearer. Mr. Young, you say "there is simply going to need to be a certain amount of assumption made." No, there's not. It's a violation of wikipedia policy as I posted on your talk page. He cannot stay on. If you disagree with other people's citation validity, feel free to remove them, as I've continued to say. For example, it's very likely the Paris Hilton has had an STD in her life given the evidence, but if we were to place this willy-nilly in her article without a proper citation, it could be grounds for a libel suit. Now, I don't think Mr. Ross is going to sue us for libel if we claim that he is the oldest man in Australia, but the point is that we can't say "certain types of information don't require a proper citation." It's all or nothing. We don't need to delete this whole page by the way, just the ones without proper citations. I've already removed most that weren't, but if you find one that you feel is unsatisfactory, be bold and delete it yourself. Canadian Paul 05:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Jóhannes Tauser/Faeroe Islands
This entry was removed of the ground of the Faroes not being a nation. This is true, yes. However, Faroese people are a separate nationality distinct from the Danish, so I don't see why this entry was removed. Can someone elaborate? Mulder1982 07:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe this is a case of "Euro-centrism gone wild'. Prof. Olshansky calls things like this 'statistical masturbation'. The Faroes have what, 48,000 people? Do you see every 'nation' listed? I think not.Ryoung122 11:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

This is similar to the case of Marie-Louise L'Huillier above. I believe that the Faroese have votes for the Danish parliament. The other criteria is that the population is considered part of the other country. This may be the reason. Otherwise he should be listed. As I said previously, the same rules should be applied in each case. If a reliable citation stated that Mr Tauser was older than any Danish man then he would be listed. Captain celery 17:35, 15 August 2007 (UTC)Captain celery

I am not familiar with the Faeroes...please explain: do they have a vote in the Danish parliament? Are they counted as part of Denmark's population in the national census?Ryoung122 11:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I only got my information from Wikipedia. I don't know about the census. Captain celery 01:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * But can you confirm that he is still alive currently, because then he would overtake the woman mentioned as the national recordholder, would he not, dear friend? Extremely sexy 15:28, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Irma Van de Voorde-Notteboom
Irma Van de Voorde-Notteboom has died, solving the problem of the sketchy reference. Anyhow, I've put "unknown" there as a temporary measure, so that we can keep up the oldest male. My question is what shall we do now? Does anyone have a reputable source with the next oldest living Belgian? Should we delete the country from the table? Should we leave just the male and note that he is only confirmed as the oldest male, not the oldest in the country? I am open to any and all suggestions that do not involve guessing or making something up. Cheers, CP 21:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well: as I happen to live over there, I am confident I will be able to follow this up during the next few days, so keep you all posted. Extremely sexy 21:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Oldest man in Switzerland
What about August Schenker (* September 17, 1899). He was alive as of September 2005, living in Basel. Is he still alive today? I could not find any information about his death. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)
 * Nice: that could be the anonymous man mentioned as being 107 at the start of this year, because he was born in 1899. Extremely sexy 19:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid, August Schenker is not the oldest man in Switzerland (and never was) because he died in December 2004, three months after turning 105 years old. These days, Pierre Gremion is the oldest Swiss man we KNOW of. Sincerely TB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.60.105.198 (talk) 17:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Ludwika Kosztyła
I don't speak Polish and I have no idea how reputable the source site is. She looks very sprightly for a 110 year old but that's hardly unprecidented. The age claimed isn't outlandish and is at least a claim. I wish someone would claim that John Ross is the oldest man in Australia so we can add him. At least we have the citation for Pierre Gremion's 105th birthday and possibly the older August Schenker to be added later.

As Paul said previously, ideally we would have another entry for Hungary. I suggest Franz Kunstler as oldest man, since although his name sounds Austrian, he was a Hungarian citizen until middle age, whereas Ponticelli moved to France at age 10. But again, I don't know if anyone has claimed this, and it would mean Hungary's oldest man and woman living elsewhere. Aarvonen and Parkson can be considered the oldest man and woman of the Baltic countries. An oldest woman in Finland is findable, but an oldest man in Estonia perhaps not.89.242.41.91 20:22, 3 September 2007 (UTC)Captain celery

The oldest living woman in Finland
I am not fluent in finnish, but I thought about some text lines in a finnish article about the 110th birthday of Mr Arvonen.

"Suomen vanhimman asukkaan Aarne Arvosen tyttäret Paula Åhs Järvenpäästä ja Irma Roiha Halikosta 109-vuotiaan isänsä ympärillä. Arvonen täyttää 110 vuotta lauantaina, ja odottaa merkkipäiväänsä hieman jännittyneenä."

I can only guess, but for me it sounds as if there are two women alive as of August 2007 at age 109. The first is Paula Åhs Järvenpäästä and the second one is Irma Roiha Halikosta. They are noticed in the text about the oldest inhabitant of Finland. So they could be the next in row to this position. I could not find something about these ladies. Perhaps someone else is able to do so? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.137.61.157 (talk) 17:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Paula and Irma are his daughters and he lives in Jarvenpaa. Perhaps 109 was the age when he moved to the old people's home where he now lives. In summer 2005, when he turned 108, he was still at home. Nice try though. 84.13.41.3 20:19, 4 September 2007 (UTC)Captain celery,

Oldest man in Canada
Re the oldest man in Canada - Ernest MacPherson is my grandfather and his date of birth is January 11, 1899. He lives in Prince Edward Island and he is still living. Posted September 7, 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.164.155.236 (talk) 17:16, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Re the oldest man in Canada - My grandfather, Ernest MacPherson, passed away on September 15, 2007. 207.164.155.236 13:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Was he ill, and is there an obituary to be found somewhere as well? Extremely sexy 18:36, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Ernie was ill shortly before his death but he enjoyed good health for more than 108 years.

Here is the obituary which was published in several local newspapers.

MACPHERSON, Ernest Melville At The Margaret Stewart Ellis Wing of Community Hospital on Saturday, September 15, 2007, of Ernest Melville MacPherson, formerly of Dunblane, in his 109th year, husband of the late Ellen “Nellie” (Boulter) MacPherson. Born in Dunblane on January 11, 1899, the son of the late John Alexander and Jessie (Currie) MacPherson. Dear father of Florence (Leon) Hatchard, Moncton, N.B.; Marie (Osborne) Phillips, O’Leary; Grace Yeo, Lot 16. Loving grandfather of Gail (Terrance) Millar, Moncton, N.B.; Marilyn (James) Crawford, Fallmouth, N.S.; David (Ruth Ann) Hatchard, Moncton; Brian (Charyl) Hatchard, Stellarton, N.S.; Murray (Deborah) Hatchard, Moncton; Ruth (Rudy) Poirier, Moncton; Sharon (Timothy) Hicks, Hillsborough, N.B.; John (Ruth) Phillips, Central Bedeque; Donald (Irene) Phillips, West Cape; Wade Yeo, Fredericton, N.B.; Craig (Tammy) Yeo, Lot 16, 30 great-grandchildren and 13 great-great-grandchildren. Predeceased by a son-in-law, Wendell Yeo, brothers and sisters Percy, Mary, David, Elwood, Jennie, Henry and two brothers in infancy. Resting at the Ferguson Funeral Home and Chapel, O’Leary, where visiting hours were held Sunday 2-4 and 7-9 p.m. Funeral on Monday in the chapel at 1p.m. Interment to follow in the West Point Presbyterian Church Cemetery. Memorials to the West Point Presbyterian Church Cemetery would be appreciated. www.fergusondfh.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.164.155.236 (talk) 14:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, my friend. Extremely sexy 15:22, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Oldest man in Scotland
This article says that he's 109 but doesn't give a name or even a year of birth (could have been born in 1897 or 1898), and without a year of birth he can't really be added to the Territorial Records section (which is where I'm assuming he would go since the National Records section already has the UK). Does anyone know any more? Cheers, CP 19:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It's also a bit strange since this article (from March 2007) claims that the oldest man is Bob Taggart, at age 106. Maybe the above article is just poor fact checking? Cheers, CP 19:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I just think they meant person, c.q. woman, Paul. Extremely sexy 03:41, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I guess so, since this woman is 109. Between her and Bob Taggart, I think there's enough evidence to add her to the charts (certainly more evidence than some of the other names anyhow). Cheers, CP 15:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Centenarians in Mauritius
I have found an interesting article about the living centenarians in the Republic of Mauritius from September 20, 2007. Link: http://www.afriquenligne.fr/news/daily-news/mauritius-plans-centenarians'-club-200709209043/ The article confirms, that the currently oldest living person in Mauritius, Marie Edith André, is still alive at age 109 (of course her birthday is September 23). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.96.94.136 (talk) 12:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow, great work! I'm always worried that some of these under 110s have died without anyone knowing. Cheers, CP 15:55, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Oldest living woman in Germany
Strange situation at the moment ... Irmgard von Stephani, Germanys doyenne since July 2005 passed away on October 05, 2007 at age 112 years, 15 days. After her passing Elsa Tauser was the oldest living person at age 111. But she died the next day, October 06 ,2007, at age 111 y, 95 days. So the only two German people, who were validated by the GRG have passed away within a mere 30 hours. Now, the oldest living person in Germany is Margarethe Rosenberger, who is expectedt to celebrate her 111th birthday on November 13, 2007. Hopefully she will make it. She is the last surviving German, born in 1896.

See also this German article: http://www.welt.de/berlin/article1245811/Die_aelteste_Deutsche__ist_tot.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.60.229.178 (talk • contribs)


 * Can someone provide me with a citation for Margarethe Rosenberger? Cheers, CP 01:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * She's not on the GRG list as of October 8, 2007, so don't link there unless it goes up. Cheers, CP 20:38, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry: I really thought she was though. Extremely sexy 21:18, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * No worries. I noticed that there's a Bertha Rosenberg who was born in Germany on the list. Honest mistake really. Cheers, CP 22:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes: it's confusing. Extremely sexy 22:21, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Not to me! Run a search on World's Oldest People and you'll find references. Ryoung122  06:17, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I was only confused at the very beginning (when a picture of Rosenberger was found online), Robert. Extremely sexy 15:22, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, Rosenberger is dead per this. As the expert on that site says that he is uncertain if the next candidate is still alive and especially because the last one was not, there is no need to add anyone without some sort of proof that they are still alive, or at least recently enough that the expert is confident enough to claim that she may still be alive. Cheers, CP 21:41, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * What a sentence, but I do understand. Extremely sexy 15:22, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Eileen Richardson
Eamonn, there is a big problem with your citation. It is from over 2 years ago and GRG only includes people who have been confirmed alive in the last year, because some countries release annual lists. Admittedly this is not GRG, so the citations don't need to be as strong. However, a few months ago Robert Young said that any Ireland correspondent would have to investigate the likes of the Richardson case, which shows that she has been lost track of. Given the nature of being 109+, it's fairy likely that she has died. So unless you can find something more recent it will be taken down. But I'm assuming you're living in Ireland, so you have a better chance than us in the UK of finding out about her. 80.2.16.73 15:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC)Captain celery


 * Give it 24 hours. If nothing better emerges, toast it. Cheers, CP 15:21, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well something good came out of it, because I discovered Christopher Richardson, who had his 101st in March. Let's see if he gets a 102nd. Anguilla seem to revere their elderly, since every other story on the island seems to be about them, and given that they have few centenarians, even 80 year olds get a mention. This isn't necessarily a good thing - *cough* Dominica *cough*, however the ages claimed are a good deal more plausible. Annoyingly, Rose (K)Amelia Hughes, who lived in the same nursing home, was 102 at the end of 2005, and could be the oldest woman refered to, but I couldn't find anything more recent. There only seem to be about 4 surnames in the whole population so it was somewhat confusing. 80.2.16.73 16:11, 9 October 2007 (UTC)Captain celery


 * So it looks like we should get rid of the 111-year-old Irish woman? Cheers, CP 19:35, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * No updates since the 109th birthday story. Ryoung122  23:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I have to agree on this one actually. Extremely sexy 15:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Frieda Borchert
Born Jan 5 1897, last confirmed alive in Jan 2007...Margarete Rosenberger (born Nov 13 1896) died Sept 29 2007, so she was never Germany's oldest person. Ryoung122 23:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

So Tauser was the last German from 1896. I know Paul thinks Borchert should be left off, but then GRG accepts people who were alive within the last year and I think in this case the standard should be the same, because it makes sense to wait for birthdays to be announced/lists released. We have plenty of other people up who we can't keep constant track of, as we can with Edna Parker, Tomoji Tanabe, etc. I also think she should be added to the supercentenarians list, along with the other 2 Germans who had their 110th birthday this year. Also, good work to find Estonia's oldest man. Next on the list: Finland's oldest woman. 80.2.16.73 00:17, 11 October 2007 (UTC)Captain celery


 * I agree: aye aye, Captain ;) Extremely sexy 15:25, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It's a matter of WP:PROVEIT. Doubt has been expressed by the expert on Robert Young's site that she is still alive and, on this page, we are representing the fact that she is still alive as a verifiable fact that is unlikely to have a reasonable challenge. So in this case, I am challenging the fact that she's still alive (especially since the last person that was added was already dead – thus it's not unreasonable for me to challenge this) and since you have no source to prove that she has been alive recently, I can take her off unless a source is provided that she has been alive within a reasonably recent time frame. I ignored this with Rosenberger and she ended up being dead – I'm not going to make that mistake again. Cheers, CP 18:08, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * But what about Captain celery's logical remark though: hasn't he got a point there? Extremely sexy 18:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes but, with the GRG, there's some differences. For one, the GRG has a disclaimer that the people are only verified "alive" within a year, so people viewing the source would understand that. Secondly, the GRG is a recognized institution and a site with scientific publications, so going around saying that person X is dead when the GRG says that they are alive and without a reliable source is more also a violation. So if your grandmother happened to be Edna Parker, and you knew a day before it hit the news that she had died, I would put her back on if you tried to remove her, even though I'd be almost certain that she was actually dead. Wikipedia is not about "getting it right at all costs" it's about being able to verify to a reasonable standard everything in the encyclopedia. Cheers, CP 18:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The bottom line: let's hope that we will know she's still alive in due course. Extremely sexy 18:22, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Paul, you make some reasonable points. I was setting out the case without any special circumstances. Bart, since you are 'Extremely sexy' I thought that justified any name I chose. If you prefer you can call me Lee, but Captain is also good. 80.2.16.73 09:52, 12 October 2007 (UTC)Captain celery


 * Well: hopefully your great ship won't sink though, Master Lee. Extremely sexy 15:57, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

It's been confirmed on the World's Oldest People forum, so now she can stay without any qualms on my behalf. Cheers, CP 16:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Greetings, just a thought or two:

Scenario A...we confirm someone alive as the 'oldest living' whatever. Months go by, and we find out they had died months ago. Guess what. They STILL were the 'oldest living whatever'.

Scenario B...we confirm someone alive as the 'oldest living' whatever (like Margarete Rosenberger). A few days go by, and it turns out she died less than two weeks ago...but she was never the 'oldest living' whatever.

Which scenario is worse? Many would say B. Using the punctuated equilibrium concept, the issue is less how out of date someone is and when was the last update since a certain milestone was reached?

One more thing...I do have some doubts about cases like Letitita Lawson, who comes from an Iowa government agency which has, in the past, had people mistakenly listed that had died over a decade ago and then still reported as 110+ in the newspapers (i.e. Carolyn Wemer died in 1993 at 96, but was listed in an Iowa newspaper as still living in 2006, aged 110). How could that happen? Simple: the newspaper believed the government source.

But one thing to look for: when that is the case, usually we have telltale signs...'anonymity', no one knows where the person is, etc.

The bottom line: we're certain that Letitita Lawson was born in 1896. We are less certain that she is still living, even though our government source says she is. When we have to rely on other sources, we cannot totally control error.

Ryoung122 08:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Oldest living woman in Korea
The wikipedia-article "List of living Supercentenarians" currently lists Korean woman Choe Pu Yong, born November 02, 1897, at age 110 years. So, when she is listed in that list, why shouldn`t she be listed as well in the list of the "living national longevity recordholders"? She is the oldest known (claimed) living woman in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.60.209.239 (talk) 18:36, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Well the Polish record holder is on here, but not the complete list so on that basis then the Korean should be here too. Captain celery 00:59, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I have no problem with her being added, so long as a source is provided. Cheers, CP 18:00, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Oldest in Romania
Any records on who the oldest in Romania is at present? Islenska2007x (talk) 14:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Oldest man and woman in Wales
Does anyone have any records of who the oldest living man and woman in Wales are? Islenska2007x 13:43, 14 October 2007 (UTC) Well: Louisa Sheppard, 109, is definitely a strong contender for this vacant overall title since an almost 110-year-old died in May => http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Worlds_Oldest_People/message/8871 and http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Worlds_Oldest_People/message/7874 (registration required). Extremely sexy 14:35, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

A 109-year-old woman called Sheppard in Wales. Deja vu. Captain celery 20:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Deja vu: explain. Extremely sexy 11:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

In the early Guinness Books of Records, Katherine Plunket was listed as oldest woman ever and Pierre Joubert and then Walter Williams as oldest man ever. But Isabella Shepeard was considered the unofficial record holder, dying at 115 in 1948, despite being supposedly born before birth registration was made compulsory in 1837. Later they said she was thought to be 109 at her death in Wales. So she may have been the oldest person prior to Betsy Baker, but there's no documentation. Captain celery 20:53, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for informing us. Extremely sexy 21:59, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Just because there were no official birth certificates, it does not mean a case cannot be validated. For example, there are census records going back to 1841. She would have had a marriage certificate if she did marry. Before birth certificates were introduced, baptisms were registered at the church (and were even long after birth certificates).SiameseTurtle (talk) 18:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

New oldest in New Caledonia
With D'Hullier recently deceased, any contenders on who could be her successor? 86.133.45.232 (talk) 22:16, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The officially new oldest living person in New Caledonia is 103-year old woman Marthe Page, born April 09, 1904. So she is much younger than Mrs L´Hullier. http://www.pacificmagazine.net/news/2008/01/02/new-caledonias-oldest-woman-dies-at-112 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.60.199.73 (talk) 12:15, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Oldest German
The oldest german man, Georg Thalhofer, has died on the 4 February. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.87.191.221 (talk) 21:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The new oldest living man in Germany is Franz Künstler, born July 24, 1900, at age 107 and still in very good health. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.60.210.245 (talk) 10:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Why have German woman Frieda Borchert and German man Franz Künstler been moved away from the list??? We have the excat Name and the excat Date of Birth and the only person listed for Germany is a German-born woman from the USA.

Remember the following people, who are still listed:

Canada: oldest person born in Canada (now living in the USA) and the oldest living person in Canada
 * so Frieda Borchert and Helen Johnson both should be listed for Germany, it would just be the same

Czech Republic: There might be a man alive in the Czech Republic, born in 1902. We do neither know his name, nor his Date of Birth. But he is still listed.
 * we know, that Franz Künstler is alive as of February 2008 and we know his Date of Birth

Denmark: the oldest living woman is known by name, but what about her Date of Birth?

Kosovo: Only the name and age of the oldest living woman and man are known. The Dates of Birth are missing

Do not understand me wrong. I do not want, that the people above leave this list. But why are the oldest woman and man in Germany no longer listed? Both have been confirmed as beeing alive in 2008 and we know all facts needed to be listed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.60.188.26 (talk) 18:12, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Each case requires a reliable citation. Until then, uncited material may be removed at any time. 71.42.216.100 (talk) 17:09, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The oldest Estonian has died: http://www.postimees.ee/210208/esileht/siseuudised/313350.php --84.50.22.178 (talk) 22:04, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Does it say who succeeded her? 71.42.216.100 (talk) 17:09, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Watfa Ghanem
Someone should create an article about Watfa Ghanem, a 128-year old Syrian woman, born in 1880. She has long passed the age of Jeanne Calment, who reached the longest confirmed lifespan at 122. 1 2 3. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.42.180.104 (talk) 19:30, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Not until she is verified (which would seem to be extrememly unlikely!)> DerbyCountyinNZ (talk) 22:34, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Pierre Gremion
The following link confirms, that the oldest man in Switzerland made it to 106. So could someone please change the reference?

http://www.lagruyere.ch/fr/le-journal/les-anciennes-editions/2008/20080228/la-derniere-edition-20080228.html


 * By the way, shouldn't Yakub Satar be listed as oldest living man in Turkey. It is kind of unlikely, that there is a man alive, older then him. And through the registration of his service in WWI, his age is more believable than other claims.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.60.212.241 (talk) 13:35, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay: that's correct. Extremely sexy (talk) 14:48, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * No, we cannot add Yakup Satar unless there is a source explicitly saying that he is Turkey's oldest man. Wikipedia is not about our best guess, it is about facts that can be verified by reliable sources. All material, especially that about living people must be cited or else it may be removed at any time. Cheers, CP 18:01, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

And to be fair to CP, the waiting game paid off with John Ross. Going back to Gremion, there is a famous Swiss singer who is a few months younger, so if he dies first then we have a likely successor. Another citation that really needs updating is Miguel Suarez Orejas. He reputedly turned 108 six months ago but the reference is still for his 107th birthday. I don't expect these things to be instantaneous. Gunda Harangen's update took a couple of months and I'll be checking to see if Kit Richardson made it to 102 this week. But half a year is too much. 80.2.17.47 (talk) 21:10, 15 March 2008 (UTC)Captain celery


 * Kit Richardson died just over a month after his 101st birthday. 71.42.216.100 (talk) 15:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm assuming that you're referring to Hugues Cuénod. I wonder if there's a citation claiming that he's currently the second oldest man, because that + Gremion obituary would = Hugues Cuénod as oldest. Marjory Saunders claim as oldest Canadian Olympic athlete is based off of citations showing how she was 4th in 2005, followed by a chain showing that everyone older than her has died. And you're right about Miguel Suarez Orejas... Spain usually keeps relatively good track of these things, I'll do some searching and maybe people at the WOP group have a source... Cheers, CP 21:51, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Ask and ye shall receive. I'll update the article. Cheers, CP 21:55, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Nice find. That'll do for at least 6 months, unless we hear otherwise of course. And yes, Cuenod was who I was thinking of. 80.2.17.47 (talk) 01:54, 16 March 2008 (UTC)Captain celery

Oldest man in Czech Republic
Stanislav Večeřa was the oldest man in the Czech Republic. But he died back in 2007. His Date of Death is unknown to me at the moment. But in October, he was already dead.

See also the following link: http://www.ahaonline.cz/cz/z-domova/18846/marie-pozdickova:-bylo-ji-104!-zapila-to-becherovkou

Nejstarší obyvatelé Česka

108 - Nejstarší obyvatelkou České republiky je Marie Kráslová (108), která se narodila v listopadu 1898 v Úsilném nedaleko Hluboké nad Vltavou. „Kráslová žije v domově důchodců v Hluboké nad Vltavou. †108 - Františka Novotná z Nových Syrovic na Třebíčsku zemřela ve 108 letech na Silvestra roku 2005. †108 - Františka Čermáková z Moravských Budějovic zemřela v roce 2003 ve věku 108 let. †107 - Legionář Alois Ocásek zemřel v srpnu ve věku 107 let. 106 - V Hradci Králové žije Marie Bačová, která se narodila 1. 11. 1900. V listopadu jí bude sto sedm let. †106 - Stanislav Večeřa z Březí nad Oslavou na Žďársku zemřel v květnu. †105 - V Hradci Králové v roce 2005 zemřel Julius Kubelka. Bylo mu 105. Marta pokorná died on the 30th December, 2008. Note it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.60.210.25 (talk) 20:40, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Oldest in Kosovo
I saw that someone removed those oldest in Kosovo. What was the reason for that? If there was a good reason, please state it here. I can see the problem with not having even a year of birth of the two persons in question, but even so the source seems quite okay. Since I'm not sure how to interpret this, I won't just put it back, but I'll keep the question open here in talk. In the meantime I do have to make another change though, since the oldest man in Sweden just died.(Yubiquitoyama (talk) 21:32, 3 April 2008 (UTC))


 * I restored it. There was no explanation given for its removal and it was cited material. Cheers, CP 14:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Oldest in Japan
Chiyo Shiraishi is not the oldest in Japan. This article confirms what has been reported earlier, that the oldest after Kaku Yamanaka is an Okinawan 112-year-old woman whose identity has not been released by the wishes of her family. By earlier data released by the japanese government, she is likely born May 10th 1895. http://mainichi.jp/select/wadai/news/20080406k0000m040072000c.html The Japanese normally release the name of the oldest, so likely we will know in a few days who she is. (Yubiquitoyama (talk) 15:22, 5 April 2008 (UTC))
 * Yes, but maybe her family still doesn't want to disclose this information, since they want her to remain anonymous, dear Yubi. Extremely sexy (talk) 15:34, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That's true. Therefore I agree that Chiyo Shiraishi should remain here. I do think her name will be released though. I think Yone Minagawa was anonymous until her becoming oldest too. (Yubiquitoyama (talk) 16:00, 5 April 2008 (UTC))
 * We could just put "unknown" like we do for some of the others. But since the GRG is a more reliable source, I'm fine with leaving Shiraishi for the time being. Cheers, CP 16:37, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed, but Minagawa has never been anonymous. Extremely sexy (talk) 17:57, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * My mistake. She was marked as unknown in the September 2003 top 100 list, but she was already disclosed in the list of September 2004, well before her becoming oldest. I thought her name wasn't revealed until Ura Koyama died, but I was wrong.(Yubiquitoyama (talk) 19:29, 5 April 2008 (UTC))
 * I forgive you though. Extremely sexy (talk) 12:13, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Oldest living man in France
The french wikipedia names Fernard Goux, born December 31, 1899, as oldest living man in France. He lives in Sceaux-du-Gâtinais and is the last surviving french man born in the 1890s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.61.65.62 (talk) 18:26, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Do you have a non-Wikipedia source for this? Cheers, CP 15:28, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Moreover, he is the last French man born before 1900, and this with no day to spare at all, by sheer coincidence, plus their last (allbeit unofficial) "Poilu". Extremely sexy (talk) 17:52, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

New oldest in Colombia?
Any contenders for who could succeed Daniel Guzman-Garcia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mika2008 (talk • contribs) 15:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Immigrated records? Oldest in Sweden
I'm a little uncertain as to how we interpret immigrated records, especially in cases where those are less certain than the unimmigrated ones: The oldest woman in Sweden, according to official records (and therefore some news reports) is Saro Dursun, born in Turkey, but a relatively recent immigrant to Sweden (someone looking into this claimed she was not listed in Sweden early 1980s). Therefore this is the oldest living Swede, but certainly a much less believable record than number 2 on the list, who is born in Sweden (which has older reliable population statistics than for example Turkey). So, should both be mentioned, or only one of them? Some news reports have Saro Dursun, and some have Rut Mikaelsson (although mentioning that an unnamed Turkish woman is older in population statistics).(Yubiquitoyama (talk) 15:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC))
 * Good question, but several years ago there was a woman in The Netherlands who also had immigrated and claimed to have been a supercentenarian, although later inquiries determined here to have "only" been a centenarian at the time, so I would stick to the Swedish born woman. Extremely sexy (talk) 16:55, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

New oldest person in Austria
After the passing of 110-year old Hermina Dunz on June 14, 2008, now 109-year-old Hermine Hinner of Vienna is the oldest living person in Austria. Hermine Hinner was born May 16, 1899.

The following link belongs to an article about the 109th birthday last month.

http://www.vienna.at/news/wien/artikel/aelteste-wienerin-feierte-109-geburtstag/cn/news-20080515-09021820 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.61.122.40 (talk) 20:06, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Fernand Goux
Was he really born on December 31? Or did someone make that date up just because it was the last day of the 19th century? Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 06:59, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Some problems
I think that this page is pretty good at the moment but there are some problems:

1. It's only been 6 months since Marthe Page was named the new oldest in New Caledonia, but we haven't heard anything about her 104th birthday.

2. Another island nation is Mauritius, for which the stats are very good, but they are from over a year ago. We know that Marie Andre turned 109, but not that Wan Kaw Sang turned 105.

3. Speaking of statistics, it may be my computer illiteracy to blame, but the Danish links don't seem to say anything about Hedetoft and Gammelgaard. The only sources I could find about them were a year out of date.

4. Greenland is another dead Danish link. Luckily Charlotte Petersen is due a 101st birthday in a few days so we'll see what happens. 89.242.32.64 (talk) 16:18, 7 July 2008 (UTC)Captain celery


 * Here is a link to a 101st birthday-story with a nice picture:
 * http://www.sikunews.com/art.html?catid=6&artid=5158
 * Her Date of Birth is said to be July 20 and not July 18! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.61.102.180 (talk) 00:35, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Rock n roll. So do you have any knowledge of the Danish cases? The statistics only show that there was a 108 year old woman and a 106 year old man. Original Research might indicate that they're Hedetoft and Gammelgaard but that's not really good enough. As for the Mauritian case, he had to go. The New Caledonian I'm not so sure about, because we have at least heard about her in the last year, but not her birthday. 195.171.111.194 (talk) 11:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)Captain celery


 * Following a link to a story about Martin Gammelgaard from December 2007. I don't know either this is the same article with the now dead link in the main wiki-article or not!
 * http://www.danishcrown.dk/page20405.aspx
 * The article is eight month old and names him the nations oldest male inhabitant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.61.85.218 (talk) 14:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

That's obviously the article that was supposed to be there. So that's great for the next 2 months until he turns 107. 89.242.218.62 (talk) 17:18, 23 July 2008 (UTC)Captain celery


 * I thought I could solve the case of Magda Hedetoft, but it seems I can't. The page that confirms her being alive is from last winter and is here (no longer findable in google):
 * http://regionsjaelland.dk/PresseOgNyt/Publikationer/Documents/sundhedsmagasinet_vinter08.pdf
 * The problem is that it only says that "she and another 108-year-old woman are the oldest in the country", without specifying who is the oldest. I know that the other woman is Adelheid Nielsen (from googlefindabnle news stories a couple of years back confirming she and Magda Hedetoft are the only danes born 1899 or earlier), but I can't find whether she is alive or in any case, older or younger than Magda Hedetoft. (Yubiquitoyama (talk) 17:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC))

England and Britain
i changed the union flag to english because if there is the scottish and welsh flag below then it should be the english flag because the union flag would cover those aswell as they aren't seperate territories! Webbmyster (talk) 09:32, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The correct thing to do is to delete Scotland and Wales from the "territorial" records...they are not "territories" but sub-units of the United Kingdom. If anything, I would suggest putting the Scottish and Welsh titleholders on the "List of British supercentenarians" page, where a national focus would make sub-national concerns more appopriate. Ryoung122 09:39, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

yes excellent idea! Webbmyster (talk) 10:07, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Reformat as table
I'd like to format this into a table, similar to Supercentenarian. I think it fits better the sorting by age. I would use two tables: one for the oldest person (generally female), and another one for the oldest male per country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Docu (talk) 14:25, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Benedykta Mackieło
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedykta_Mackie%C5%82o +113! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.30.174.201 (talk) 08:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Ludwika Kosztyła (1897-2008)
August 3, 1897 - December 1, 2008 http://www.tvp.info/news.html?directory=2788&news=838080 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacek downey (talk) 15:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Oldest living man in Italy
Buth after the death of Delfino Borroni who is the oldes male supercentenarian in Italy? --William Hartman (talk) 12:03, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * As far as I know it is not yet known. SiameseTurtle (talk) 18:43, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

OLDEST POLISH PEOPLE
These lists are proven records

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najstarsi_ludzie

for more information please contact Wolfgang http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedysta:Wolfgang/brudnopis http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyskusja_wikipedysty:Wolfgang/brudnopis —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.76.37.218 (talk) 12:32, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

User:80.31.114.70
I've taken the matter of this anonymous disruptive editor to here. The solution has been to semi-protect this page. I would not be surprised if this person is back with a different IP address continuing his behaviour on this page, if semi-protection has expired, or on another longevity-related article within a few weeks. If they do start making disruptive edits it has been suggested "to start a discussion on the talk page to try and reach a consensus about the information in particular. If the IP doesn't wish to engage in the discussion (of which, you will notify him) then semi-protection will last longer." If that doesn't work (and I'm betting it won't!) then we should take it back to the page I've linked above.

With regard to the current edit I have found no evidence that Carlo Dozzi is being claimed as Italy's oldest man. Cheers, DerbyCountyinNZ 22:23, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Carlo Dozzi
Added again, still with no citation. (Yes, it's our anonymous, uncommunicative Spanish user again; see above). Does anyone have a reference for Dozzi being at least claimed as the oldest Italian man? DerbyCountyinNZ 02:21, 12 April 2009 (UTC)


 * As the entry was reverted I will quote from Verifiability:

''*"The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. The source cited must clearly support the information as it is presented in the article. The source should be cited clearly and precisely to enable readers to find the text that supports the article content in question. Editors should cite sources fully, providing as much publication information as possible, including page numbers when citing books.

If no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it.

Any material lacking a reliable source may be removed, but editors might object if you remove material without giving them sufficient time to provide references, and it has always been good practice, and expected behavior of Wikipedia editors (in line with our editing policy), to make reasonable efforts to find sources oneself that support such material, and cite them."''

As the material concerned has no citation I have removed it (after I, and at least one other user, requested that a citation be provided). This material was first inserted several weeks ago (by the same person using a different IP address), plenty of time to find a source if one existed. I have searched and found nothing. Therefore, in accordance with "one of Wikipedia's core content policies" I have removed it. It's quite simple really! DerbyCountyinNZ 08:02, 12 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Derby, please calm down. This is one line in an article, not an entire article. The age claim of 108 is not extreme. Italy's leading expert has noted that his age is older than the man previously thought to be Italy's oldest man:

Greetings,

It has been brought to my attention the case of Carlo Dozzi (or Dozzo as reported sometimes in the article), born in Frisanco (Pordenone) on 25 january 1901, who celebrated his 108th birthday in Maniago (Pordenone), in the north-eastern region of Friuli Venezia Giulia, bordering Slovenia.

He is therefore older than Giovanni Ligato (born 17 february 1901), so far considered Italy's oldest man

The other interesting thing is that according his biography in 1917 he started working in helping his father to repair the trenches after the disastrous defeat of Caporetto. If confirmed (investigation are under way) he could deserve a status of WWI veteran.

See also the picture at

www.db.ilpopolopordenone.glauco.it/pls/ilpopolopordenone/v3_s2ew_CONSU LTAZIONE.mostra_pagina%3Fid_pagina%3D373+%22CARLO+DOZZI% 22+MANIAGO&hl=it&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=it

Maniago: nuovo traguardo per Carlo Dozzi Ha compiuto 108 anni ed è accudito in famiglia

Carlo DozzoNel suo lungo cammino di vita Carlo Dozzo ha tagliato un nuovo, invidiabile traguardo, quello dei 108 anni che ne fanno il maniaghese più anziano. E, viste le sue generali condizioni di salute, il super compleanno appare ancora più degno di nota; familiari e amici non hanno mancato di festeggiarlo e l'intera comunità si è virtualmente stretta intorno a nonno Carlo. Difficile capire quale sia il suo "elisir di lunga vita" ma, senza dubbio, il suo carattere sereno gli è stato di aiuto e gli ha permesso di affrontare situazioni complesse ed eventi dolorosi che, insieme ai momenti di gioia, hanno caratterizzato la sua esistenza. Il signor Dozzi, originario di Frisanco, nato il 20 gennaio 1901, ha svolto la sua attività lavorativa a Maniago come operaio nel settore delle coltellerie, nella grande fabbrica del Co.ri.ca.ma, ma anche all'estero, in Olanda, come terrazziere. Attualmente vive accudito dalla figlia e dai suoi familiari che lo descrivono come una persona mite e tranquilla, che, fino a poco tempo fa, ha coltivato vari interessi culturali. In un recente passato leggeva con assiduità giornali e libri, poi, quando la vista l'ha progressivamente abbandonato, si è dedicato in particolare all'ascolto della radio, e soprattutto della musica classica. Nel corso delle conversazioni con familiari e conoscenti ricordava con piacere e con ottima memoria episodi legati alla Maniago dei tempi andati. Qualche anno fa, in occasione di un precedente compleanno, ci aveva parlato delle sue speranze in un mondo di pace, lui che, avendo vissuto direttamente la tragica esperienza di due guerre mondiali, conosceva le sofferenze patite dalla popolazione. Sarebbe bello che la sua longevità gli permettesse di realizzare questa aspettativa anche se, purtroppo, la realtà di questi giorni sembra farci intravedere esiti poco confortanti. L'augurio da parte dei maniaghesi a Carlo Dozzi è di proseguire nel suo cammino terreno aiutato dalla serenità che l'ha accompagnato fino ad ora.

Best regards

Giovanni Alunni

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Worlds_Oldest_People/message/12129

It's not about what you can or cannot find...others can find it. Ryoung 122 09:19, 12 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Exactly! If there is information that someone is a country's oldest person/male/female then you would expect some sort of source to be quotable (I expected you or one of your colleagues to have something!). Pity it's from groups.yahoo which I think it was agreed was too unreliable to be used for the longevity pages. DerbyCountyinNZ 22:00, 12 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment: A lot of this comes from Wikipedia's problems of "one size fits all." A blog, webgroup, etc. is as reliable/unreliable as the person/s running it. The irony is that due to attacks from Wikipedians, I closed membership and now the group is more reliable than ever...new members must register and be smart enough to answer a simple anti-spam question (it's amazing how many are not able to figure that out). Ryoung 122 21:06, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Trinidad & Tobago
Lucia Rosarie 18 September 1902, 106th: http://www.newsday.co.tt/features/0,87897.html No idea if she's the oldest though SiameseTurtle (talk) 14:46, 19 April 2009 (UTC) Elbert Blades 7 April 1902, 107th: http://www.newsday.co.tt/features/0,98847.html SiameseTurtle (talk) 22:45, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Bea Riley passed away?
DerbyCountyinNZ said: Still no evidence she has died. According to both her article and GRG she is still alive. And no indication that Miriam Schmierer is the next oldest anyway.
 * DerbyCountyinNZ, someone deleted my changes on those 2 articles as well. Now, according to Australian Gerontologist Researcher, John McCormack she indeed passed away, but let us wait for Stephen Coles to remove her from Table E. Petervermaelen 04:46, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Apparently her death has been confirmed on the yahoo.groups forum. Strange that after 5 days there is still nothing in the Australian newspapers. DerbyCountyinNZ 06:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I have been told that the family didn't want publicity...which I think is a bit selfish. They had already put her out there as the oldest person in Australia...so they should have closed the book by doing a story on her. In any case, there seems to be persons in Australia over 110 that are currently anonymous, as well as an unverified Chinese claim to 112. Ryoung 122 22:46, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Tyyne Mäkinen
Some IP-vandal keeps adding Tyyne Mäkinen despite her being dead. I have changed it two times and he/she changes back every time. How does one handle this? Tyyne Mäkinen is born earlier than the person said to be Finland's oldest (Viljo Kekola), so apparently she is dead. Yubiquitoyama (talk) 15:39, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This is the anonymous Spanish user back with a new IP (back in Barcelona this time). See Carlo Dozzi discussion above. This user never explains edits, cites references or responds to messages on their talk page. As they keep changing IP blocking them is only a short term solution. The only way to prevent their disruptive edits is to semi-protect the page (but as soon as it is taken off they will be back). DerbyCountyinNZ 21:06, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

oldest Czech died
http://praguemonitor.com/2009/07/02/oldest-czech-dies-age-106

Ryoung 122 01:10, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Saro Dursun
Did we have a confirmation that she made it to 110? If know, we should deleted her from the list --Statistician (talk) 08:30, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This is essentially a ghost case. I doubt she is alive, or has been for several years. Most likely she went abroad some years ago and died there. However, since that in that case wasn't reported to the authorities, she is still on the ledger of people registered in Sweden. That's the only place she has ever been found, and she is still there. But there has never been any news report or anything else suggesting she is actually alive. The only reason she is on this list is that when other oldtimers in Sweden has been reported on in the media, she has been listed since she is on the official statistics. Yubiquitoyama (talk) 17:43, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Stanley Lucas
Are there any references at all about him, cos i can't find anything about him! Webbmyster (talk) 09:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. He is mentioned here: http://oldestinbritain.webs.com/oldestlivingbritons.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yubiquitoyama (talk • contribs) 17:45, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Hungary
107 year old Hungarian woman, Kövesdi Mátyásné, born 16 November 1901 (last update May 09): http://kecskemetitv.hu/hun/sa_tv/i_belfold_33/i_a_107_eves_kati_neni_elettitka_2783/t_A%20107%20%C3%A9ves%20Kati%20n%C3%A9ni%20%C3%A9lettitka/index.html http://www.hunyadivaros.hu/107evesneni/107evesneni.htm http://kecskenet.hu/hun/sa_hirek/i_helyi_hirek_8/i_mozgaskorlatozottak_a_csardaban_15543/t_Mozg%C3%A1skorl%C3%A1tozottak%20a%20cs%C3%A1rd%C3%A1ban/index.html Another woman aged 107, Kudász Jánosné born 27 April 1902: http://www.helyitema.hu/images/katsel/dist/17.html Possibly the oldest man, Pelles József born 1 June 1903: http://www.boon.hu/lakohelyem/encs/cikk/b-a-z-megye-legidosebb-embere/cn/news-20090701-12151680 SiameseTurtle (talk) 16:07, 17 September 2009 (UTC) A Hungarian woman, Tóth Györgynét (Anna/Annushka) born 22 December 1901 (last update Dec 09): http://www.beol.hu/bekes/kultura/szazhet-eves-megyenk-legidosebb-lakoja-199571 http://www.bekesmegye.com/index.php?action=fullnews&id=446986&category=2941&category_name=kondoros_hirek http://www.beol.hu/cikk/277662 SiameseTurtle (talk) 23:22, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Unverified coloration needed
Greetings,

As with some other pages, people insist on putting Unverified claims (not internationally recognized) on this page. If one wants to do so, at least use the background coloration scheme to indicate that the case status. Ryoung 122 12:54, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Proposal to re-name
Greetings,

Some/many of the claims on this page are UNverified and therefore do not qualify as "national recordholders." Also, it seems silly to call a living person a "living recordholder." I propose re-naming this page to "Oldest Living Woman and Man by Nation." Ryoung 122 13:34, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

New idea
This page should be deleted and be combined with National longevity recordholders. To see the discussion see User talk:NickOrnstein. Thanks! --Nick Ornstein (talk) 15:18, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Criteria for the list
Nobody should be included unless there is a citation specifically claiming they are the oldest person/woman/man to be born or living in that country. The inclusion of anyone without such a citation, on the basis that they are the oldest person a user has managed to find for that country, is OR. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 19:41, 29 November 2009 (UTC)


 * What is the minimum age for an unverified person to stay on the list? 115? This page is rediculous. I want this page DELETED! SEE User talk:NickOrnstein!!! Please tell me what your opinions are on this guys!!!--Nick Ornstein (talk) 23:07, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it is complicated enough as it is. For example, Rosa Rein isn't the oldest Swiss-born person ever. There's also room for mis-interpretation: for example, what happens if the oldest living person is known, but the recordholder is not? Then it could be interpreted as the living person being the oldest ever, which might be WP:OR. I think it's better to keep these lists separate. As for unverified people, it wouldn't be right if we removed people as soon as they turned 110. Secondly, no organisation that validates supercentenarians has the resources to span every country. I think anyone who is said to be the oldest person in their country should be added, unless they are older than the world's oldest woman (for a woman), or the world's oldest man (for a man). I say this because Guinness Records attempts to validate claims to the oldest man/person in the world (Maria Capovilla is a good example). SiameseTurtle (talk) 21:18, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Lucas Melón Ayala
Hi, probably you're missing him: Anciano que cumplirá 118 años necesita ayuda para afrontar problemas de salud. From RPP News.

Here is another link Padre de 117 años pasará su día solo From OJO Newspaper.

He borned in 1892.

And you can find a more results in google.

--†_JuanPa_† (talk) 10:48, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Technically, as there are no established criteria for including anyone on this page (other than the implication that they are claimded to be the oldest person in their country) he could be included. BUT...as his claimed age is older than any verified person it is unlikely his inclusion would be allowed to stay. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 11:28, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I think there SHOULD be criteria for inclusion. A claim like this should be sent to Longevity claims. Ryoung 122 15:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)