Talk:List of participants of Freedom Flotilla II

Many of the participant names are on organizer websites. I'll add more as time permits. Suggest we keep names alphabetical, by last name. Also, to comply with NPOV (as much as possible), probably best to leave out participant statements, and motives. 2011-06-27T04:22:28 EverettColdwell


 * Agreed. Added some of the Irish contingent. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 18:56, 27 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Here is a full list of Swedish participants: http://www.shiptogaza.se/pressrum/freedom-flotilla-ii/passagarere-ffii --Soman (talk) 02:36, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm working on adding the US participants on the Audacity of Hope, listed at. RolandR (talk) 16:39, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

= Deletion = This article may be deleted. Please provide an opinion: Articles for deletion/List of participants of Freedom Flotilla II --Everett (talk) 04:47, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Notablility issues
This article as it stands does not meet WP:NOTE at all. We cannot simply copy and paste passenger lists from the organizer's websites. The participants are not notable unless they're talked about by _secondary_ sources.

The page should be renamed to "Notable participants of the Freedom Flotilla II" and everyone who is not mentioned in secondary sources needs to be removed.

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 22:20, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, isn't the AFD going the way you were hoping, then? "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article or stand-alone list." Notability of the article is satisfied. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 22:34, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Bastun, first of all assume good faith. I made my view clear there, and here.  I do not want to see this article deleted.  But think it should be limited to a list of notable participants.   And while, a notable event can have a stand alone lists, by no means does that mean that they should, or that they should include everyone no matter their notability or lack of notability.


 * "Because the group or set is notable, the individual items in the list do not need to be independently notable, although editors may, at their discretion, choose to limit the size of large lists by including entries only for items that are independently notable or already have Wikipedia articles." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability#Stand-alone_lists


 * "For instance, articles about schools often include (or link to) a list of notable alumni, but such lists are not intended to contain every graduate of the school—only those with verifiable notability. ... On the other hand, a list within an article of past school presidents can contain all past presidents, not just those who are independently notable." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28people%29#Lists_of_people


 * So, I'll reaffirm my point. This article shouldn't simply be a very long list of every single participant.  Nor should it include biography that have no references or biography copied verbatim from biased primary sources.


 * The article should be a list of notable participants as described by reliable secondary sources. -- Bob drobbs (talk) 22:51, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * P.S. And while I do assume your good faith in making edits, I don't have to, nor should I assume that the Free Gaza movement is using good faith and being honest in what they say on their website. Their passengers lists could very well be deceitful propaganda which leaves out anyone with questionable records, and/or distorts the bios of the passengers to make them seem more noble than they are.  We should be sticking to non-biased RS for information we put on this page.  -- Bob drobbs (talk) 22:57, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Agree that the material in the article -- all of which is about BLPs -- must be sourced to RSs (or removed).--Epeefleche (talk) 23:15, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks to the editor who put the proper BLP/sourcing template on the page. Per that template, I view (as discussed above) the inclusion of unsourced (to RSs) material on this list as contentious, and as the tag indicates contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:43, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

MV Saoirse
The ship has cancelled it's voyage. Certainly a list of crew for a non-existent ship does not belong here.

Markowitz may have a point with WP:Crystal. It was a guess into the future that these people would be on the ship; and as it turned out, they were not.

This section need to be deleted.

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 22:30, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The ship still exists, and I've not seen a reference that the participants didn't sail. This section is referenced, and needs to be retained. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 22:50, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I have shown you this reference repeatedly.
 * "AN IRISH ship, the MV Saoirse, will not take part in the planned freedom flotilla which is preparing to sail to Gaza because it has been sabotaged, according to one of the ship’s intended passengers. ... Speaking last night from the Turkish port of Göcek, Fintan Lane, the national co-ordinator of Irish Ship to Gaza organisation, said that the ship would not be able to sail as it had been “dangerously sabotaged”, according to the organising campaign." -- http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0630/1224299796875.html
 * There are a ton of reasons to remove the section.
 * 1) As Markowitz said, it was a violation of WP:CRYSTAL to list them as passengers. And, as we see, your crystal ball was false.  They weren't passenger at all.
 * 2) It doesn't seem it was notable in the first place. The organizers putting these people on their own website doesn't make it notable.  Where are the secondary sources that list these passengers?
 * 3) It's doubly not notable now that the ship isn't going anywhere. It simply is not encyclopedic to keep a list of people who once upon a time planned to go on a ship, but did not actually do so.
 * 4) As the article stands now, it borders on WP:OR. There are no RS which say that these people had planned to go on the ship but cannot because it's been canceled.  You're putting 1+1 together to make 2.
 * A section based on a crystal ball which didn't come true, certainly does not belong here. The section should be deleted from this page, and from the MV Saoirse page.  -- Bob drobbs (talk) 23:06, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * See Talk:MV Saoirse. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 23:37, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Please leave the discussion here, as we may get more voices. Currently, you're outvoted 2:1 on that page.
 * I've explained my reasons why that section should be deleted.
 * Can your or anyone else here provide solid reasons why a list of passengers should remain on wikipedia when it was initially put up as WP:Crystal, but then turned out to be false, when the ship's voyage was cancelled?  -- Bob drobbs (talk) 00:20, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * No one has given me a reason for why this section is still here. This ship has cancelled it's plans.  We should not be listing people who had once upon a time planned to be on a ship (but didn't go) unless secondary RS make it notable.    The claims that some of them are moving to other ships is totally unreferenced.  _If_ secondary RS say these people are now on other ships, please put re-add them where they belong. -- Bob drobbs (talk) 11:45, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Read what the text actually says, please. "The passengers and crew that had boarded the MV Saoirse, prior to it being damaged, in order to take part in Freedom Flotilla II, included..." That is referenced, factual, and accurate.  Please actually read the references, which show that many participants were indeed on the ship. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 11:54, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Referenced, factual, and accurate does not necessarily imply notability, especially when the original notability was based on a crystal ball which turned out to be false. Are these individuals still participating in the Flotilla?  If so, find RS (preferably secondary), and put them where they belong. -- Bob drobbs (talk) 12:15, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Soman provided a clear enough argument for me. It's not notable that they "stepped foot" on this ship.  But if they did indeed join the flotilla from Ireland to Greece, then I'll agree it has a place.  If these people traveled on the ship from Ireland to Greece provide a reference for that!
 * And, I'm cleaning up the section. Biographical info should not come from hyper-partisan sources.  Bastun, you demonized Shurat HaDian as being hyper-partisan racists.  Well, the sites you are choosing to use are every bit as bad.  Biographical info about living people, particularly criticism _or_ praise, needs to come from reliable secondary sources.  None of the free gaza websites meet that criteria.  -- Bob drobbs (talk) 20:21, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Who is "Soman"? I don't think I've ever called anyone a "hyper-partisan racist", on- or off-Wiki. Diff, please? The biographical information comes from various reliable sources, including local and national Irish newspapers, the Irish parliament, and peoples' existing WP entries. Please follow the links and read them before editing again. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 21:51, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * According to consensus reached on the article about the ship, we decided to remove the list of (non-)participants. So I removed the same section from here too. Marokwitz (talk) 11:04, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Consensus? 2-1 hardly counts as consensus. As stated in the referenced material you removed, the individuals listed were indeed participating in the event.  Six still are.  No, they didn't complete the voyage, but you don't need to have done so to be counted as participating.  C.f. the list of particpants in the original Freedom Flotilla, none of whom reached Gaza on that occasion. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 13:05, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Bastun, I apologize. My mistake.  It was Soman who referred to a source as "armchair racists" and "hyperpartisan".
 * And you're right. _Now_ the information is limited to reliable secondary sources and other WP pages.  But that was only after I cleaned it up.   Before then much of the bios were simply taken verbatim from primary sources and not only included praise for these individuals, but also their hopes and dreams.  That has no place here.
 * Now, finally on to the MV Saoirse. I agreed that these people belong in the article _if_ they traveled by boat from Ireland to Greece (vs. meeting up with the boat in Greece and going nowhere). But I still haven't seen that source.  Do you have such a source?  So, I'm leaning back toward agreeing with Markowitz and deleting the entire section.   -- Bob drobbs (talk) 17:55, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but unreliable and primary sources are still used. A speech by some Irish politician is not a reliable source for facts, just as that of an Israeli politician. The "Irish Ship to Gaza" website is a primary, partisan source, as is the "Tahrir" website. And even more importantly, the sources only state that these people intended to participate in the flotilla, and not what the article claims this list contains, "The passengers and crew aboard prior to its withdrawal". This is simply a statement of intent. We have absolutely no proof that any of these people has actually boarded the ship. Marokwitz (talk) 18:08, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * See reply to Bob in the section below. Can we keep discussion in one place, please? Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 21:44, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Living people - ref improve
I was almost removing some of the apparent uncited, all names that are not wikipedia notable should require a clear citation right beside their name, in fact all the names do, a clear support for them being on this ship or they should be removed. All details and claims about the individuals also require a citation that support the personal claims about them. Off2riorob (talk) 23:30, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Not just a citation, but a citation from a reliable secondary source.
 * '' "Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Criticism_and_praise
 * Bios from some of these primary sources are nothing more than PR propaganda for the flotilla. If any of these passengers are to be praised (e.g. "Lifelong activist for peace and justice") it needs to be attributed to a reliable secondary source, not just taken from the biased viewpoint of the flotilla organizers.
 * They need to be updated and cited from a secondary RS or removed. -- Bob drobbs (talk) 00:23, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, fully agree as per WP:Policy and guidelines - Off2riorob (talk) 00:48, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:25, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * BASTUN, once again. See this link:


 * : '' "Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Criticism_and_praise


 * We should not be simply grabbing biographical praise from hyper-partisan primary sources. _If_ reliable secondary sources give biographical info, it can be used but it should be limited.  We don't need to put their entire life stories in here.  And we absolutely should not be including their hopes, dreams, and aspirations according to a partisan primary source. -- Bob drobbs (talk) 21:47, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

from the article - uncited
Hi, I thought to get this article improvement started I have moved this big uncited section for citing and replacing. Thanks - Off2riorob (talk) 00:01, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

From Canada

 * Lyn Adamson. Lifelong activist for peace and justice. Quaker. Representing Canadian Voice of Women for Peace on the Tahrir. Human rights observer in West Bank in 2004,
 * Sue Breeze. B.C. Small business owner. Involved in struggles for peace and justice for 30 years, and Palestinian struggles since the early 1980s,
 * Stéphan Corriveau. Montreal based activist and a founding member of Alternatives. For 30 years he's been advocating on behalf of social justice issues in Canada, and active against South African apartheid, supporting Palestinian rights and anti-war campaigns.
 * Karen DeVito. Participated in social justice movements most of her life.
 * Bachar Elsolh. Physician and activist with principles of nonviolence. Involved in Muslim civil actions. Co-authored and promoted CPJME’s 'Human Drama in Gaza' exhibition, and is a member of the Canadian Muslim Federation.
 * John Greyson. Toronto filmmaker/artist. For 3 decades has created works including the struggle against apartheid in both South Africa and Israel. Active in the BDS movement and a member of Queers Against Israeli Apartheid.
 * Muhammed Hamou. London, Ontario Muslim Chaplain at the University of Western Ontario in London.
 * David Heap. University of Western Ontario faculty member (French & linguistics). Active in peace and social justice causes, including Latin American solidarity and the labour movement. Participated in the Gaza Freedom March in December 2009.
 * Miles Howe. Halifax, Nova Scotia peace activist and a journalist. He is also a sociologist, a caterer, and a musician.
 * Soha Kneen. Began as a student activist with Greenpeace in the 90s and progressed to labour activism, anti logging campaigns, anti GMO campaigns, anti war campaigns and local social justice issues. Active on twitter with 2000 followers (@SmithSofia) Runs blog: Palestine Solidarity Demo Information Centre (http://psdic.blogspot.com/) (blogspot)
 * Mary Hughes-Thompson. Writer, human rights activist and co-founder of the Free Gaza Movement. Mary has visited the West Bank six times and was on board the Free Gaza that broke the siege of Gaza in August 2008. Participated in the attempt to reach Gaza with the Code Pink Gaza Freedom March in Cairo in December 2009/January 2010 and was part of the first Freedom Flotilla in May 2010.
 * Robert Lovelace. Former Chief of the Ardoch Algonquin First Nation and professor of Indigenous Studies at Queen's University. Activist for Indigenous rights has been involved in speaking up for Palestine for many years.
 * Irene MacInnes. Vancouver peace activist. Founder of the movement in Canada against sanctions on Iraq in the 1990s, and of the Canada-Cuba friend-shipments, which challenged the U.S. blockade. In 2003, she was awarded the City of Vancouver Peace Citizen of the Year. She is a co-founder and former co-chair of Vancouver's StopWar.ca Coalition and a former co-chair of the World Peace Forum held in 2006.
 * Manon Massé. Social justice activist for 30 years, working on housing, poverty, homophobia, women's and minority rights and peace. Co-founder of the World March of Women. Member of the Québec Solidaire political party since 2006 and has stood for election three times.
 * David Milne. Retired social worker living in Belleville, Ontario. As a member of Christian Peacemaker Teams on their Iraq and Aboriginal Justice Teams.
 * Kevin Neish. Retired marine engineer and life-long human rights advocate. First visited Cuba in 1966 and returned in 1990 for solidarity/work tours. In 1989, acted as a human shield for five exiled leaders of the Guatemalan opposition group RUOG, including Rigoberta Menchu, during peace talks. He faced paramilitary death threats and a car bomb attempt. Worked as an official observer in elections in El Salvador in 2000 and 2009. During the Easter 2002 invasion of the West Bank, he volunteered with the International Solidarity Movement as a human rights observer and shield. More recently, he served as a human rights observer in a Colombian prison where union and peasant leaders were held, and stayed with one of their threatened families as a protective witness.
 * Dylan Penner. Cofounder of Independent Jewish Voices Canada (IJV), Toronto Coalition to Stop the War, the Ottawa Peace Assembly, the Ottawa Palestine Solidarity Network, and People for Postal Workers. Member of Canadian Boat to Gaza.
 * Marie-Eve Rancourt. Lawyer specializing in international law and international politics. On Freedom Flotilla II, will represent the League for Rights and Freedoms and her mandate is to observe and document any violation of international law and human rights which may be committed by Israel. The International Human Rights Federation, of which the League for Rights and Freedoms is a member, also supports the mission of the Flotilla.
 * Jase Tanner. Independent film maker and editor whose activism with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was triggered by Cast Lead. Initially denied entry to Gaza, was able to enter Gaza later that year as part of the Canadian MP delegation that traveled to Palestine in August 2009 and produced a half hour film documenting that trip.
 * Kate Wilson. Toronto book publisher and children’s mental health activist. Experiencing apartheid in South Africa while living in Botswana for three years and talking to Palestinians in Jordan led her to the Palestinian cause. In December ‘09 she joined Code Pink’s Gaza Freedom March and has twice demonstrated in Bi’lin, West Bank.


 * Have added in a few of Tahrir participant's, backed by secondary source media reports --Everett (talk) 06:33, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

WP:NOTE
As I understand it, we are not here to reproduce self published lists of names from activist sites. We require the names of notable people in independent reliable external reports. Off2riorob (talk) 00:05, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Well-said.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:08, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Done, for the MV Saoirse. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:16, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Nice one. Thanks. (disclaimer - I have not looked at the improvements)-Off2riorob (talk) 10:15, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Please do, before they get deleted. I've already been told that permanent record of the Seanad isn't a reliable source.  But they're local and national Irish newspapers, the parliamentary record. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 21:53, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, the primary record is not really worthy of republishing here a link to it would suffice for what value it is to this project to report detail from such a primary source. The local newspaper is a better report to report. The article as it stands now is very poor indeed. Primary promo externals... a whole section is sited to this http://ustogaza.org/passengers-on-the-audacity-of-hope/ - creating a list of not notable people on a boat that is a copy of a single primary external is just not an objective for this project, neither is it a benefit for the reader, the information is presented better in the primary. Off2riorob (talk) 22:05, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The peace activist websites are primary sources, and there is no reason to suspect that they were not correct, when created. I would expect that they would be updated as the ongoing news story develops. Regarding notability, many of the participants have Wikipedia articles. If they have articles dedicated to them, why would they not be notable enough for this "list" page? --Everett (talk) 05:42, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * First on all, they're not "peace activists". They're activists on a mission to end the blockade of a war zone.
 * Secondly, from WP:RS:


 * ''The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is the best such source for that context."


 * Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:
 * 1.	the material is not unduly self-serving;
 * 2.	it does not involve claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities);
 * 3.	it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
 * 4.	there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;
 * 5.	the article is not based primarily on such sources.


 * This article has been failing on #1, #4, and #5. Previously the bios were full of self-serving praise from primary sources.  There is indeed a reason to doubt the authenticity of what they're saying, since they very well might skew their passenger lists, telling the story that they want to tell, by listing peaceful protesters and covering up the violent ones.  And, the article has been primarily based upon these primary sources.


 * So... per wiki policy, there is a real need to keep this article based primarily on reliable secondary sources. -- Bob drobbs (talk) 07:28, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Primary sources of lists of passengers do not confer notability on the subjects. Furthermore, the list still contains non-notable persons on it.  Those should be deleted, as Off2 and others have indicated.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:12, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Howard Jacobson's comments on Alice Walker
I don't think opinion papers merit notability unless they're covered by other RS. And the only other source I could find which covered his opinion seems to be the Jewish Telegraph agency. That's not not much of a source.

So, I'd planned to delete the sentence containing his counter-argument to Alice Walker, but I thought I'd bring it up here first and see if there were any good objections to removing it.

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 11:54, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Blockade of Gaza Strip timeline box
I'm not clear on why page needs this box, especially right at the very top. Suggest it either be removed, or at least moved so that it is no longer on top. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EverettColdwell (talk • contribs) 20:24, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Passengers on MV Saoirse - citation needed
Come on people. If you're going to claim that these individuals traveled by boat from Ireland to Turkey, then you need a RS to support that.

It is not enough to find references which said that they had planned to join the flotilla. Many different members of the flotilla joined boats at different ports of call. It seems that you simply have a guess that they got on the boat in Ireland and left it in Turkey. I'm sorry, but guesses are not good enough around here.

Please provide a RS which actually speaks about these individuals departing _from Ireland_ on their way to Gaza. Thank you.

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 22:45, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Incredible. No response to my queries above, including on where I'm supposed to have called someone a racist.  Then, on investigation, I find the citation you're looking for is actually to reference an addition you've made.  You can justify your own addition.  In the meantime, I'm changing the lead of that section to something accurate, verifiable, and sourced.  Meanwhile, I'll await a withdrawal of your accusation of racism. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 10:54, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I responded above. But about this source you're speaking of?  I do see a source that six of the people who had planned to travel on the MV Saoirse left, while the others got on other ships.  But I still have not see any sources indicating that these people traveled on the MV Saoirse from Ireland to Turkey. Do you have any references which show these individuals traveling from Ireland to Turkey by ship?  The Americans flew to the Mediterranean and got on their boat there.  Did the Irish do the same?
 * Because ... if they're simply wanna-be participants who never actually went anyone on a ship, then they're non-participants. Non-participants don't belong on a page about participants.    -- Bob drobbs (talk) 18:13, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the apology. Re the sources - all those named have between one and three reliable sources saying they were participating.  That is all that is required.  Per WP:V: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true."  You seem to think it isn't true that they were participants.  Therefore it is up to you find verifiable references saying they never took part. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 21:42, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * There were still unreliable sources used, which I removed. As noted above, reliable sources are absolutely required by BLP policy. We can't write articles about living people based on a speech of some politician and an activist website. I agree with Bob, I still have not see any sources indicating that these people traveled on the MV Saoirse from Ireland to Turkey. If they're simply wanna-be participants who never actually went anyone on a ship, then they're non-participants. Non-participants don't belong on a page about participants. The sources do not back the claim that they were actually on board the ship, for now I tagged this as needing citation, but if the tagged issue is not addressed, the section would have to be removed.Marokwitz (talk) 06:49, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Jacobson and Alice Walker
This page is a list of passengers. It was not intended for, nor should it be a soapbox for their views. And it definitely should not be a place for rebuttals to those views.

Can we reach consensus to limit Alice Walker's bullet point to solely being a _brief_ biography of her, and leave out the opinions? And can we delete Jacobson entirely from _this_ article? -- Bob drobbs (talk) 03:30, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree w/the general point as to the purpose of this list.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:48, 11 July 2011 (UTC)