Talk:List of participants of the Gaza flotilla

Notable enough to be listed?
I did some Google search and come up with the following that had less then 10 000 hits:
 * Raza Agha, Pakistan: 4060
 * Sümeyye Ertekin, Turkey: 5260
 * Abbas Al Lawati, United Arab Emirates: 7760
 * Ali El Awaisi, United Kingdom: 927
 * Joe Meadors, United States: 6830
 * Viktoria Strand, Sweden: 9530

According to this I want to drop all of these. But the notability can be discussed and some may possible be reverted. --Kslotte (talk) 13:22, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * And also the following where recently added:
 * Amil Sarsour: 3840
 * Kimberly Soto Aguayo: 4030


 * I'm dropping these also. Give some arguments for their notability. --Kslotte (talk) 13:31, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I hoped that someone would discuss here about the notable of some people. A new run with Google hits. Google give rough measurement about their notability, but in some case someone is notable enough. We need to give good reasons and arguments for listing someone under 10 000. Myself goes at 3000 Google hits and I'm definitely not notable. Please, discuss and don't add and revert people without reasons. --Kslotte (talk) 17:26, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Raza Agha: 4090
 * Srdan Stojiljkovic: 2 130
 * Kimberly Soto Aguayo: 3 900
 * Amil Sarsour: 3 810 (removed; unreferenced)
 * Sümeyye Ertekin: 5240
 * Viktoria Strand: 8900
 * Sümeyye Ertekin: 5240
 * Çetin Topçuoglu: 2710
 * Ali Ekber Yaratilmis: 2230
 * Abbas Al Lawati: 7850
 * Ali El Awaisi: 872 (removed; unreferenced)
 * Joe Meadors: 6770 (keep; reference indicate notability)
 * Google hits is NOT a measure of their notability. You won't get many hits of the arabic or even turkish names for example, since they are mostly spelled with the arabic letters and even the english interpretations of the names may vary. Also, Sweden is a very small country. Viktoria Strand for exampe is in my opinion undoubtably notable. However, as I wrote above. Who's notable and not is not interesting at all in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.227.152.171 (talk) 17:51, 19 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Also, many of these are unreferenced. Such information should be removed or reference should be added. --Kslotte (talk) 17:29, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Srđan Stojiljković has 68,900 results on google search. He is a rather well known cameraman in Serbia, but not the English speaking world. IJA (talk) 18:42, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * You should search by "Srđan Stojiljković". In your search it list every Srdan and Stojiljković there exist. Please define well known? any references? --Kslotte (talk) 18:51, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Recently was Jan Línek and Petr Zavadil, Czech Republic added. References about he being notable? Both names seems to be common Czech names. --Kslotte (talk) 22:04, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, it depends what does notability for this list mean. Google hits should not be main notability test. Li-sung (talk) 22:23, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Notable means that the person should be well known at least in the specific country. Is there any news article about the person? If it is journalist, so have he/she been given some awards? or is he/she doing reports that are watched by many. Provide references to such. I ask people here to provide proof of notability here, because Google isn't an exact measurement of notability. --Kslotte (talk) 00:32, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * if this is a list, why not list all the people, and then only have a blp about the notable ones? (i.e. do not delete names confirmed present from reliable sources, that are not notable in their own right, but leave non red link). Pohick2 (talk) 03:11, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * That seems to me good idea. If somebody is mentioned in reliable source as passenger, then he/she is notable enought to be on list. Wikipedia rules use notability for creating articles, but even non-notable people could be mention in article. Li-sung (talk) 06:35, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Many things may be nice to document. But this an encyclopedia with rules and policies. Listing all will violate WP:NOTDIRECTORY, "Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics such as (but not limited to) quotations, aphorisms, or persons (real or fictional)". If someone want to create a lists then lists.wikia.com may be suitable.--Kslotte (talk) 10:10, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * WP:NOTDIRECTORY also says "there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contribute to the list topic". So in my view there is OK to make lists of people that are "famous because they are associated with" main topic Gaza flotilla raid. Li-sung (talk) 12:16, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * "if their entries are famous" means they should be notable. And to verify notability there needs to be some sources about the person. --Kslotte (talk) 12:42, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Notability in list has policy: WP:NLIST --Kslotte (talk) 12:46, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * i see your point about nlist, however WP:LSC seems more applicable:

it seems that means we have the choice to include non-notable members if the article size is not too big. Pohick2 (talk) 15:02, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Every entry meets the notability criteria for their own non-redirect articles in English Wikipedia. Red-linked entries are acceptable if the entry is verifiably a member of the listed group, and it is reasonable to expect an article could be forthcoming in the future. This standard prevents Wikipedia from becoming an indiscriminate list, and prevents individual lists from being too large to be useful to readers. Most of the best lists on Wikipedia reflect this type of editorial judgment.
 * Every entry in the list fails the notability criteria. These lists are created explicitly because the most or all of the listed items do not warrant independent articles: for example, List of minor characters in Dilbert or List of paracetamol brand names.
 * Short, complete lists of every item that is verifiably a member of the group. These should only be created if a complete list is reasonably short (less than 32K) and could be useful (e.g., for navigation) or interesting to readers. The inclusion of items must be supported by reliable sources. For example, if reliable sources indicate that a complete list would include the names of ten businesses and two non-notable businesses, then you are not required to omit the two non-notable businesses. However, if a complete list would include hundreds of entries, then you should use the notability standard to provide focus the list.
 * Including all 600 will probably make the list too big. Therefore, some level of notability is needed. And as thumb rule I suggest is that there should be some internet article that prove their notability (non Gaza flotilla article). An single notable event won't make somebody notable. --Kslotte (talk) 09:02, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * i agree, 600 would be about 260 kb, if you added the non-notables on talk of 11 kb, it would be 24 kb, < 32 kb. the first cut should be reliable sources, the second cut notable if size too big, agreed? Pohick2 (talk) 14:50, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree, requirements are reliable flotilla participation source AND some notable source. Otherwise the list will be filled with all 600. I assume all 600 names will be available through different news articles. --Kslotte (talk) 15:12, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * i disagree, but will not contest the use of notability criteria, since the LSC goes both ways. i am surprised that the groups havn't released a complete list, i suspect we may not get one, and will have to rely on disparate news reports. Pohick2 (talk) 16:07, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * PLEASE DISCUSS THIS FURTHER IN THE NEW SECTION "Is the notabilty question applicable here?"

I suspect this edit may have entries not being notable. I quick Google search didn't show anything. But, someone could verify it better. --Kslotte (talk) 13:02, 5 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Also these, notability are questionable. Dying don't make anyone notable. --Kslotte (talk) 16:10, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Theresa McDermott, notability is questionable. She has participated in different attempts earlier. But as I see that doesn't make her notable. --Kslotte (talk) 11:28, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


 * After some considerations, let's keep Theresa McDermott and Joe Meadors, since they are part of two notable events.

I was on board the Mavi Marmara during the Israeli attack. So, as per the note at the top of the list stating, "This list is incomplete, you can help by expanding it.", last night I added my name to the list of participants. Unfortunately my edit was removed by a page editor very shortly afterwards, apparently due to "Self publicity, non-notable, non-reliable source." I am new to Wikipedia editing so I'd appreciate an explanation as to what was incorrect in my entry. I do not see simply personally submitting a factual acknowledgement of my being on the ship as being "self publicity". I am not offering an opinion or article, just factually adding my name to a list. Regarding my notablility, an on-line search of "Kevin Neish, Victoria" came up with 352,000 entries, I suspect mainly regarding my human rights work around the world. Besides, there is a separate, rather short, list of "notable passengers" in paragraph two, at the top of the page, so it would seem to me that the main list is for all the passengers, as the article title suggests. Regarding my use of a possibly non-reliable source, "Cold Type.net". This is a fairly well known independent on-line magazine. Like Wikipedia, I feel it's important to use independent on-line sources as often as possible. I used this reference in particular, as it shows the photos I took and smuggled off the ship which, I feel, are in themselves excellent evidence that I was on the ship and notable. I would be happy to add a reference to one of several Rabble.ca on-line articles on me, as well as one from one of the Globe and Mail newspaper, New Yorker magazine or Toronto Star newspaper articles showing me holding up the captured Israeli commander commando's passenger list, which was shown in media around the world. I'd also appreciate an explanation of the "retrieved date" in the references formating, I suspect this is the date of my edit, true? Thank you. Kevin Neish (talk) 21:06, 20 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Pretty quiet out there. The hasbara editors are apparently quick to delete and censor uncomfortable facts but not so quick to debate or discuss the issues at hand. Better things to do Kevin Neish (talk) 20:36, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

List of participants with issues
This is a list of participants that have some type of issue for not being listed. The reasons can be unreferenced or non-notable. Latest update: --Kslotte (talk) 00:00, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I add taekwondo players
For their notability, I should say they are at national level. Kavas (talk) 14:51, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You probably mean Çetin Topçuoğlu. Do you have some references about her/his notability? How is she/he ranked and what do he/she referee= --Kslotte (talk) 17:46, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Ali Ekber Yaratılmış is not dead and no more I trust the news about him. However, http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/galeridetay.aspx?cid=36451&rid=2 shows that deceased Çetin Topçuoğlu was a national level player. Kavas (talk) 09:59, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Being dead or not has no relevance here. This is a list of notable participants in the flotilla. What exactly do you mean by national level? was he part of the national team? or did he participate in the highest national level within Turkey? Do you have some references to how good he was? some ranking? news articles? --Kslotte (talk) 10:07, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * i searched in vain for a european taekwondo reference. i'm surprized there is not a list online, maybe a printed source will be necessary. Pohick2 (talk) 15:04, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

number of Israelis
the numbers given by haaretz don't mention the amount of Israeli citizens participating in the flotilla —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.29.230.163 (talk) 15:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Participants on the boat with fatalities?
Would it be possible to specify which participants were on the boat with the fatalities and which were not? This might make the article more useful. --Albany NY (talk) 02:50, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Notable proof
Notable proof for participants that doesn't have an own English Wikiepdia article: --Kslotte (talk) 13:37, 3 June 2010 (UTC) --Kslotte (talk) 13:48, 3 June 2010 (UTC) --Kslotte (talk) 12:21, 5 June 2010 (UTC) --Kslotte (talk) 01:13, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Kate Geraghty: biography, Press Photographer of the Year
 * Paul McGeough: Kill Khalid, Q and A: Paul McGeough
 * Annette Groth: article in german Wikipedia
 * Inge Höger: article in german Wikipedia
 * Norman Paech: article in german Wikipedia
 * Jamal Elshayyal: profile
 * Ibrahim Bilgen: see snapshot
 * Hakan Albayrak: article in turkish Wikipedia
 * Sinan Albayrak: article in turkish Wikipedia
 * Joe Meadors: notability proof in third section, no that section is about Peck (Kslotte (talk) 11:34, 7 June 2010 (UTC))
 * Çetin Topçuoglu: Turkish Taekwondo involvement
 * Ismail Patel:
 * Wael Saqqa:
 * As per these removals, there is no need for an immediate removal when a fact or variosu other (ie "notable") tags exist. If it is removed then other editors won't see it and thus unable to attach a notability ref. The point of the tag is to be there for a while (a month or 2 seems good) and then remove if nothing is forthcoming. + the notable link on the top of the article is new addition added just hours before its removal. Well the notable tags are hideous, feel free to find a better alternative in the interim.
 * Forgot to say, considering it is a "List of..." does it require the tag "notable"?Lihaas (talk) 06:54, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You are making a good point about keeping them for a while on the list. I was surprised that it doesn't exist a "Notable" tag like . Could use of it, so the reader knows which one there are issues with. --Kslotte (talk) 13:34, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't have beef with the removal (eventually), i too was surprised at the lack of a "notable" tag. but a "who" tag may be better than the hidden info i had. go ahead and add that if you like.Lihaas (talk) 20:17, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Is the notabilty question applicable here?
I think the notable-question is totally uninmportant in this article. What's interesting is a complete list of ALL the passengers. Since there are claims that some people are terrorists, it's of interest for everyone to be able to know what people was on this boat, and who was not. That's the best way to get to know the truth. It's not even interesting that there was parlament leaders onboard or not, the interesting thing in this question is who was onboard, and who wasn't. What some of the people are known for it's not at all important here. If it is, we should rename the article to "list of notable participans of the Gaza flotilla". Cause now it's NOT a "list of the participants of the Gaza flotilla". And as far as I can see, it's only KSLotte who not want to publish all names. I have read the whole discussion and I can see no rules that are against a complete list in THIS situation. Also, you can't just rely on rules, you have to think for yourself sometimes. In some situations there is definitly no point in publishinig complete lists of persons, but in some situtations it's the complete list that's most interesting. I think this situation is. I think we must come to a conclusion now. I think both the way KSLotte measures the notability and the way he/she arguments that there should not be a complete list is very questionable. In the meantime I removed the notability-box on the main article since it says it's a "list of participants" and not a "list of notable participants". By the way, the important question to answer is: why is a list of only the notable persons interesting here? They were on the boat in private, not because they were famous or because of what they work with. I can not see the point with a participant list of only notable people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.227.152.171 (talk) 17:55, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

The article is by it self a LIST. Then it should be treated as a list. In other articles it's motivated to just write down the notable persons, but not in this article! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.227.152.171 (talk) 18:17, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I found the following guidelines on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:LSC#Lead_and_selection_criteria

When establishing membership criteria for a list, ask yourself:

* If this person/thing/etc., wasn't an X, would it reduce their fame or significance? * Would I expect to see this person or thing on a list of X?   * Is this person or thing a canonical example of some facet of X?

I would ask yes to every person onboard, on the second question. Does anyone agree?

The size is discussed above, that a list should be less than 32K. If every name is in the list it shouldn't be much more than 32 K. The column with "known for" could be removed or at least shortened down a lot since the famous persons have linked wikipedia-bios. The avarage complete name is most likely less than 25 characters, the avarage country name is most likely less than 10 characters, and since most people are unknown and probably only should be mentioned as activist, journalist, doctor, and so on, except those more known persons, i would guess that in avarage there should not be more than 20 characters (a few much longer, but a vast majority would be around 10 chars). Let's say there are 700 participants on all boats together: 700*(25+10+20) = 38.000 (38k). I'm quite sure that is a far too high number. The size should therefore not be a problem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.227.152.171 (talk) 21:02, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Three Fatimas
Fatima Mohammadi 	United States

Fatimah Mahmadi 	United States

Fatimah Mahmadi        Iran

Are these names refer to the same person? Kavas (talk) 13:31, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

She's an American of Iranian origin, I kept only one name of her. Kavas (talk) 18:21, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Seperate the list into three
Now, the page has 3 different lists, people killed in the raid, people survived in the raid, people in MV Rachel Corrie. The list of People in MV Rachel Corrie is seperated as the ship was not there on 31 May. The list of people killed in the raid is seperated as per request on the deletion discussion of Ali Heyder Bengi. I can't see why people oppose to this. Kavas (talk) 21:28, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * It is a bit dramatic to say "survivor" so I see the concern. Actually what struck me is that there were dozens/scores of people injured in the raid, some quite seriously, and that information is missing. RomaC  TALK 01:46, 30 August 2010 (UTC)


 * It is not a bit dramatic to say "survivor" or "survived" because you survive if you don't die in a dangerous event. Generally, the events in which people survive are dramatic, not the word. For example if you survive a genocide, it's dramatic. But the same word is also used for Hitler such that "it is possible Hitler survived and escaped to Argentina". The word does not show you to be innocent or the event is dramatic, as it is also used for Hitler and an event that causes the death of a man who is behind the Holocaust is not dramatic by definition. So, it is a neutral word and there is nothing dramatic in it, and it properly describes a situation in which you don't die but you come near death. Kavas (talk) 19:11, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Add to the list on the Mavi Marmara, Convicted hijacker Erdinç Tekir.
Convicted hijacker Erdinç Tekir, IHH operative wounded aboard the Mavi Marmara, participated in the 1996 terrorist attack on the Russian ferry Avrasya to bargain for the release Chechens from Russian prisons. He was sentenced to eight years in prison.

Reports in the Turkish paper, Hurryiet, and the Jerusalem Post affirm this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erdinç_Tekir —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.7.182 (talk) 07:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

List of convicted terrorists and other criminals on Mavi Marmara
1) Erdinç Tekir – IHH operative wounded aboard the Mavi Marmara, was involved in the violent 1996 terrorist attack on the Russian ferry Avrasya to bargain for the release of Chechen terrorists from Russian prisons . He was convicted & sentenced to eight years in prison, but served only 3 years.

2) Raed Salah- Leader of the northern branch of the Islamic Movement in Israel, previously convicted by Israeli court for raising money for Hamas

3) Hilarion Capucci -Syrian convicted by an Israeli court of smuggling arms to the Palestine Liberation Army and sentenced to 12 years in prison.

4) Hassan Aynsey (28), a member of a Turkish charity association, regularly transfers funds to the Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorist group.

5)Hussein Orush, from the Turkish IHH organization, intended to assist al-Qaeda activists into the Strip via Turkey.

6) Ahmed Omemun (51) from Morocco, who also has French citizenship, is a Hamas member.

7) Amin Abu-Rashid, 43, chief fundraiser of Hamas in Western Europe

8) Yasser Muhammed Sabag, Syrian intel officer working with Iran and others according to Serbian news agency FOCUS (He was an active member of Abu Nidal terrorist organization)

By refusing to list these convicted criminals and current terrorists, the Wikipedia page is showing a clear bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.252.3.0 (talk) 08:56, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * You're POV-pushing. Tekir was convicted of hijacking and not terrorism. Aynsey&Orush are not Turkish surnames. Please find Turkish names. Kavas (talk) 00:32, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

units for Hamas."

Hijacking a passenger ship and holding passengers hostage is a form of terrorism. Erdinc Tekir is a convicted criminal who terrorized civilians in an attempt to free Islamic terrorists from jail. That makes him a terrorist (read the definition of terrorism for more info) Believe it or not, some people in Turkey don't have "turkish" names. What other excuses do you have ? From ynetnews: There were also two Turks on the list released by the IDF. Hassan Aynsey (28), a member of a Turkish charity association, regularly transfers funds to the Palestinian Islamic Jihad movement, the IDF claimed. Hussein Orush, from the Turkish IHH organization, intended to assist al-Qaeda activists into the Strip via Turkey. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.255.112.122 (talk) 12:51, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Kenneth O'Keefe
What were his nationalities at the time?

This article has "United States and United Kingdom", citing Israeli Defence sources. Are they authoritative on this question?

Apart from covering his failed attempts to renounce his US citizenship, Kenneth O'Keefe describes him as "an Irish-Palestinian citizen". The statement is cited to Reuters; a discussion on Talk:Kenneth O'Keefe gives a RS (Irish Times) for his Irish nationality (though behind a pay-wall now). There is no mention there of UK nationality. Davidships (talk) 21:59, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Reverting three edits (all part of one revert)
"List of X" articles tend to become a coatrack for stuff. The "known for" column is for a description of why some particular person was known before the flotilla raid. Like, if that guy was a former ambassador or a mayor etc. This is not a place to stick descriptions about how some particular guy desired to be a martyr, or that he joined the ISIS in 2014, which did not exist in 2010. For the people who died, it is just a description of their jobs/origin before the conflict. I have also removed mentions of "shot at close range" about Furkan Dogan and "shot 6 times" for Ali Heyder Bengi and "dying as martyr".

edit1, edit2, edit3


 * For edit1: External links are not required to be WP:RS, see External_links
 * For edit2 and edit3: see above.

I have also removed "killed in the raid" (redundant). Kingsindian &#9821;&#9818; 08:18, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

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