Talk:List of people associated with the Republic of Ragusa

Name form
If to italianize one name that was realy italian, before, is a provocation, to change one italian name (ragusan highclass was all romance, none slavic!)with one invented croatian name what name has that?Maybe falsification of history is the right name for croatization of names that was not croatian.???? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eltio123 (talk • contribs) 20:06, 29 September 2011 (UTC) -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 17:39, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * First of all: do not revert grammatical corrections. Just to name one example, "playwriter" is not English, "playwright" is. If you want to revert the removal of the romance names, do so by copy-pasting them from the history page, the same way they were removed in the first place (I did not remove them). Simply "undoing" the edits is unacceptable as it damages the article. If that is too much work, that's your problem: it wasn't too much work for the guy that removed them manually.
 * Second: keep to the accustomed format for Ragusans. Do not Italianize names or prioritize one name over the other. Provocations and edit-warring will be reported.

RAGUSAN HEAD OF STATE, TRANLATION OF RAGUSAN NAMES
I'd like to comment on a few things, thus explaining my editing of the article.

First, the head of the Ragusan Republic was always called rector (While it existed, i.e. 1358-1808). During the time the Venetians ruled Dubrovnik (1205-1358) it was count, and before that it was also rector. I don't know how you came up with duke, but that title didn't even exist in the Ragusan Republic. The rector was a position, not a title. He was an administrator (lat. rector, from regere – to govern), he was elected, his station wasn't hereditary and after his term expired he wasn't the rector anymore (so he can't be called a duke). Incidentally, his term lasted for just one month, which brings me to the second matter a hand.

There isn't really any need to list the rectors of the Republic. There are only two or three of them who are famous and those are already mentioned under famous Ragusans (the list above), almost none of them have a page to link to and there is usually just one listed per year (and there should be twelve). Under Ragusan law a person was elected rector for only one month, as I already mentioned, and then he had to wait for two years before he could be elected again (this was to prevent possible dictatorships).

So you see, this list is not only unneccessary but also severely lacking in information. For example, the last Ragusan rector isn't even mentioned in the list (Sabo Đurđević, 1808, there is a painting of him in the Rector's Palace in Dubrovnik). An accurate list of rectors would be exactly twelve times longer than this, and again, unneccessary.

I didn't want to delete it myself, but I strongly suggest to the administrator or author to do so, and maybe to add more names to the famous Ragusans list, as a way of compensating the reduction in size. In 1767, Sebastijan Slade (mentioned in the above list) lists about 270 (famous) Ragusan writers. Add the 241 years that passed since then and let that be a starting point for you. This is Slade's work (It was originally in Latin, so the names have been translated into the Slavic variant – some more accurately, some less): A to C http://silvanaurbs.blog.hr/2006/06/1621264183/a-aletin-natali-dzivo-18-aletin-antun-andrijasevic-vital-ostavio.html Č to G http://silvanaurbs.blog.hr/2006/06/1621264181/c-cubranovic-andrija-16-ceminic-hijacint-18-d-della-bella.html K to O http://silvanaurbs.blog.hr/2006/06/1621264179/k-kaboga-euzebije-16-kaboga-marin-16-kastratovic-antun-17.html P to Z http://silvanaurbs.blog.hr/2006/06/1621264169/p-palikuca-petar-17-palmotic-dionoric-jaketa-17-palmotic-dzore.html

And now let me finish by commenting on my most biggest edit: names. I apologize in advance for the emotional presentation, but a person can only take so much.

Let's get something straight once and for all. Ragusan names are Slavic. Ragusan children have been given these names for hundreds of years. Their Italian or Latin versions were only used when in contact with the Italians or with foreigners in general. More than 90% of Ragusan names are short, two-syllable names that end in –o (male) and in –e (female), for example Đivo, Frano, Maro, Pero (male) and Đive, Frane, Mare, Pere (female). Ragusans used only this variant, not other, longer variants shown in the previous versions of the article. One can find numerous evidence of this in Ragusan literture.

To illustrate, I will use the names of two Ragusan writers from the 17th century. In all their books (originals, not 20th century editions) we find their names written like this: Đivo Frana Gundulić and Džono Palmotić. In the article the names Ivan Gundulić and Junije Palmotić were used for these two writers, names that they never used by themselves, names that are just translations from Latin or Italian to Croatian. My question is: if there is a valid Ragusan (Slavic) name, then why on earth would someone want to translate it from Italian or Latin into Croatian, if it is the same language?

Another thing about the names, Ragusans rarery (read: never) had two names, e.g. John Matthew. In cases like Đivo Frana Gundulić, we are not dealing with two names. The writer's name was Đivo Gundulić and Frana is a Slavic genitive referring to his father Frano, in English it would look like this: Đivo Frano's Gundulić. This was neccessary beacuse there was another Đivo Gundulić at the time, so there was a need to differentiate between the two namesakes. When they translated these names into Latin, Ragusans just put the „second“ name into genitive, e.g. Lucas Marini Sorgo (example from the article – rector in the year 1710). For those that don't understand Latin, Marinus is the basic form of the name and Marini means „of Marinus“. In Italian, however, there is no such genitive. Gundulić's name would look like this: Giovanni de Francesco Gondola. Since this is not estetically pleasing, the Ragusan then just decided to „lose“ the genitive and to write Giovanni Francesco Gondola. Hence the wrong translation Dživo Frano Gundulić, like he had two names.

Just another friendly advice for all Slavic speakers, Croats, Serbs or any other (non-Slavic speakers can ignore this paragraph). Koristite Đivo, ne Dživo, koristite Džono, ne Đono. Ovo su imena kojijeh još ima danas u Dubrovniku, posebno u prezimenima ko što su Đivanović, Đivović, Đivoje i Džono (iz Konavala i Dubrovačkog Primorja). Također, deklinacija dubrovačkih imena je drukčija nego što bi očekivali. Đivo se deklinira Đivo, Điva, Đivu, Điva, Đivo, Đivu, Đivom, ne kao što je vama uobičajeno. Ovakva deklinacija se smatra krivom u Hrvatskoj, u BiH i u Srbiji su oba dvije dopuštene, a u Crnoj Gori se, mislim, samo ova koristi. U Dubrovačkoj regiji se ova deklinacija koristi i službeno i neslužbeno, i u imenima ulica i na sudovima.

And now for my contemplative conclusion.

'''Why can't Ragusans write down the names of their ancestors in the correct, Ragusan way. Why does every Croat, Serb and Italian have an opinion, and their opinions count and the opinion of Ragusans is judged so insignificant that it is not even worth asking for? Imagine if your grandfather, that you loved very much, was called John. How would you feel if someone kept telling you that you are wrong to call him that because he was really named Peter. Think about this for a minute... I believe I'm right to assume that in remembering him and in mentioning him you would stick with John.

That's all we ask. Please, pretty please, don't write OUR history for us.'''

--A Ragusan Historian (professional, not amateur)

Rag. Historian (talk) 10:16, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * What a nice essay you've copy-pasted everywhere, too bad it does not hold water. Complete nonsense. Ragusans = Dubrovnikans = Croats. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 14:58, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your input on the correct Ragusan Slavic names, but many of those you've added are incorrect on Wikipedia as you've replaced the more frequently used names. (For example: Junije Palmotić is far more frequent in Croatian now than Džono Palmotić.) Also, please discuss, do not simply write a post and start editing. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 07:56, 12 December 2008 (UTC)