Talk:List of people convicted of treason

untitled
Maybe Karl Rove shouldn't be on here yet, even if i think he is a Traitor, scoundrel, and all around dirty trickster. He's a bad person. But, this being a encyclopedia.. should he be on here yet? has be been formally accused of treason yet?

Right, too soon to label him, to know what really happened. Plus we need to know if he was following anyone's orders.GangofOne 02:58, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Rove again
This could be a big can of worms; I hate Rove and think his long history of dirty tricks (that would have landed a lesser man in prison) should be blared on TV every opportunity the media gets, although for the sake of keeping Wikipedia neutral, the time for him to be listed as an "accused" traitor on this board is not yet here, though i have no doubt it will be here soon. I believe the meaning of "accused" here would mean by some official accusation of a public figure. Otherwise we could potentially list anyone here, from Bush to Clinton, for various acts of office.


 * Apparently, being smart and disagreeing with you is a dirty trick, huh? You probably meant acts of offence, not acts of office, as anyone who holds any position in any organization commits "acts of office". But I would expect nothing less, given how your comment started.

Rove..
OK, this rove thing is getting old - its between me and apparently one person who hasn't created an account, so i can't discuss this directly with him. My position: Adding KR right now isn't appropriate - he hasn't been accused formally. He's in good standing with the US Government. Do i have any recourse at this point, or do i let someone just sit here and turn Wikipedia into a political forum, no matter how much i agree with them?
 * I want to add Rove to this list very badly, but it wouldn't be NPOV. Rove is too well connected to the current regime... which is really sad.  Look at FEMA and Mike Brown.  The level of cronyism is terrible.  Whatever happened to civil servant examinations?
 * Political appointees don't get them. Take a class about U.S. government and/or history and you'd understand that.

Purpose and Definition
Although I have contributed quite a lot of names to this article, I am left wondering what the purpose of it actually is. Having just rearranged the USA section into alphabetical order, I was left gob-smacked at the number of people there that had actually been convicted of treason; only a tiny proportion actually were/have been. Since many of the people listed are still alive, I consider it to be very shaky legal ground to list people that 'may or may not' have been convicted of or thought to have committed treason. The charge of treason is such a stigmatic one that even those that were convicted of related crimes, but not of treason, would have grounds to complain. Barring that problem, a list of people's opinions of others' actions is not encyclopaedic, whereas a list of people's criminal convictions (or even acquittals) is.

Thus, I suggest that the article be renamed List of persons convicted of treason, that the names of those not convicted of treason be removed, and that the introductory paragraph be rewritten to serve the new purpose: listing those people that can have no defence against the charge that Wikipedia levels. If others consider it necessary, another article, along the lines of List of persons acquitted of treason would be acceptable, but mixing the two together, without any distinction, is unacceptable.Bastin8 15:57, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, this is an eminently sensible suggestion. Let's just list convicted traitors. Lisiate 01:41, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Finally, somebody noticed what I wrote! There's no point the article opening by criticising the differing standards and then ignoring the standards.  As far as I can tell, the following people should be omitted on those grounds:
 * Canada: FLQ
 * England: Queen Mary I
 * France: Alfred Dreyfus (exonerated), SS Charlemagne Division (replaced by notable members that were convicted or a note to the effect that not all of them were found guilty), Ferdinand Walsin Esterhazy
 * Hungary: Döme Sztójay, Ferenc Szálasi, Mátyás Rákosi, János Kádár
 * Poland: Wojciech Jaruzelski
 * Scotland: Colin Campbell, John MacDonald
 * Sweden: Gustav Trolle
 * United Kingdom: Norman Baillie-Stewart, Frank Bossard, British Free Corps (as SS Charlemagne), Cambridge Five, Klaus Fuchs, the Jacobites (as SS Charlemagne), George Washington
 * United States: Aldrich Ames, Benedict Arnold, David Barnett, Herbert Boeckenhaupt, Christopher Boyce and Andrew Daulton Lee, Anthony Cramer (overturned by Supreme Court), Christopher Cote (who is a traitor to which half of which species?), Larry Wu-Tai Chin, Officers of the Confederacy (as SS Charlemagne), Iyman Faris, Ronald Grecula, Robert Hanssen, Alger Hiss, Edward Lee Howard, Tyler Kent, Fritz Kuhn, Timothy McVeigh, Ahmed F. Mehalba, Richard Miller, Harold Nicholson, Ronald W. Pelton, Jonathan Polard, William Perl, Ezra Pound, Earl Edwin Pitts, Ethel and Julius Rosenberg, St Patrick's Battalion (as SS Charlemagne), John Anthony Walker, John Walker Lindh
 * Others: Ephialtes (declared a traitor, but was he convicted in absentia?), Alcibiades, Brutus (as Ephialtes), Cassius, Ludwig Beck, Judas Iscariot
 * I don’t know all of the Armenian, Chinese, or Soviet entries, nor am I familiar with Bernardo de Monteagudo, so I decided not to try to decide if they should be included.
 * Whilst I acknowledge that this would substantially decrease the length of the article, it creates a stronger framework within which others can be included without any arguments. For example, the four Hungarians removed from the list could be replaced by considerably more without the new inclusions being tarred by the perjorative use of the term 'treason': Nagy, Rajk, Szonyi, Szalai, Palffy, etc.
 * If nobody objects to this idea in the next few days, I'll press ahead with the above changes, and include a new tranche, consisting of those that have been found guilty of treason. Bastin8 18:34, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it's a great idea, but it may pay to give people at least a week to comment before proceeding (and put a new heading at the bottom to explain what's happening). Lisiate 08:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * A week it is. If there are no exceptions, on Friday, I'll make the changes.  In the meantime, I'm trying to find out about the people with whom I'm not familiar, so that I can do it all in one go. Bastin8 22:29, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, it's a bit late, but I'm doing it now. Bastin8 09:12, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

So what happened here? It looks like a whole lot of people convicted of espionage (but not treason) have made it back into the US section. Am I wrong in believing that Kawakita was the last person (in the US list anyway) to have -actually- been convicted of treason under the constitutional definition referenced at the top of the page? I propose to clean the (mere) spies out of here (again). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.28.241.34 (talk) 18:48, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

France
How can Louis XVI be listed a traitor? One cannot be a traitor to himself. After all, he was King of France, the state was him.

USA
Benedict Arnold was not a traitor, the colonies owed alliegence to the United Kingdom, so a list of Americans should be included in the British section. Examples: Benjamin Franklin, George Washington. Were they not traitors to their King?

Whether they are to be considered traitors is a point of history. The facts are that Benedict Arnold was a commissioned officer, a general no less, of the Continental Army (which is not only seen as the precursor to the current US Army, but one and the same) and that he betrayed that loyalty.

This is a List of people convicted of treason It is not a list of people who are "thought" or "charged" or anything else with treason. as such I removed the following items.


 * Adam Yahiye Gadahn was indicted by a federal grand jury for treason on October 11, 2006
 * John Walker Lindh (not charged with treason) pled guilty to serving in the Taliban army and carrying weapons on July 15, 2002

Robert Hanssen Spy

Benedict Arnold revolutionary War

Jons63 19:18, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Robert Hanssen was not convicted of treason. He was convicted of espionage. Two very separate crimes. He should be removed from this list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noneko (talk • contribs) 19:50, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

The article on David Owen Dodd also does not seem to indicate treason in particular, but merely spying/espionage. Abb3w (talk) 13:39, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * David Owen Dodd 1864 hanged for treason as a Confederate spy during the American Civil War.

I think Senator John C. Breckenridge of KY (and a former VP) was convicted and expelled by the US Senate for treason, since he became a general in the illegal CSA army. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.153.125.137 (talk) 14:27, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Herbert Hans Haupt is in the list in this article - but the article discussing the trial Ex parte Quirin lists only espionage charges, not treason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.249.34.167 (talk) 18:51, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree. Researching for Treason laws in the United States, I found sources stating that no person has ever been executed for treason against the federal government. Neither the Herbert Hans Haupt or Ex parte Quirin articles mention a conviction for treason, so I am removing Haupt from the list. Jack N. Stock (talk) 14:50, 8 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Breckinridge was indicted for treason a few days after joining the Confederate Army, and declared a traitor by the US Senate, but he was apparently never formally tried or convicted for treason. He fled to Canada after the civil war ended, and returned to the US under the amnesty given by Andrew Johnson in 1868.  173.228.123.207 (talk) 22:51, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Rosenbergs
What about the husband and wife couple who gave away nuclear secrets to the Reds? Ethyl and somebody somethin? I just can't recall.137.186.248.248 23:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * According to the treason article, they were convicted of espionage, not treason. Not a big difference, but one nonetheless.--Belgarion89 19:26, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Ethel and Julius Rosenbergs gave nuclear secrets to the Reds. Another candidate for this list should be Jane Fonda.
 * At present, this is a list of those convicted of treason. The Rosenbergs were merely convicted of espionage. While she was once arrested on a drug charge (apparently spurious), there does not at this time appear any record of Ms. Fonda having ever been convicted of any crime, much less treason specifically. Abb3w (talk) 17:07, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

The Rosenbergs were tried for not only tried for treason, they were executed. That truth is on their wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_and_Ethel_Rosenberg), yet, they are excluded from this page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_convicted_of_treason) and the wiki page titled treason (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason). Why is that exactly?
 * This is because of an important technicality. Again, they were convicted and executed for "Espionage"; they were not convicted of "Treason", which US law defines incredibly narrowly. I recall reading elsewhere that prosecutors doubted they could make a treason charge stick since the US was not legally at war; they thus decided that capital punishment via espionage would be entirely sufficient. Abb3w (talk) 17:07, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

USA- Christopher Cote, Traitor to His Half of the Species
This sounds like BS, google turned up a composer, an illustrator and an author
 * Indeed, it is BS. Removed. Filthychimp 05:11, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Czech Republic
I suggest remove this section - in the 14 years of it's history, nobody was seriously accused or sentenced for the treason. Everything what could be written, can be written in section Czechoslovakia.

William Joyce
As explained in William Joyce, his citizenship was in fact United States up to 1940 when he took German citizenship. He was born in New York to a naturalised father. He was most certainly not an Irish citizen; Joyce was a strong opponent of Irish nationalism in all its forms. Sam Blacketer 16:18, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Note
Note to self: add persons from List of trials of peers in the House of Lords. James500 (talk) 19:16, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Not sure about Edward Seymour, 1st Duke of Somerset, Philip Howard, 20th Earl of Arundel.James500 (talk) 19:48, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Note
It may be an idea to have a list in date order as well as an alphabetical list. James500 (talk) 19:30, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Also worth having a list of persons aquitted of treason, and perhaps to make a distinction between people who were tried and those who were attainted without a trial.James500 (talk) 19:44, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Title is Convicted
Just removed two people from the United States list because one was listed as being indicted only while the other hasn't even been indicted. As this article is named "List of people convicted of treason," it doesn't seem that either should be listed.

Kaotac (talk) 04:05, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

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Carles Puigdemont
- Jack N. Stock (talk) 11:41, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) Not convicted, only charged.
 * 2) It appears from the Carles Puigdemont article that the charges do not include treason.
 * 3) Addition of a living person to this list requires reliable sources per WP:BLP.