Talk:List of people from Croatia/Archive 1

Doubts
I see that the user from 67.x.y.z has been having a field day with this page. While I can appreciate enthusiasm, some of the edits are on a very slippery slope. For example:


 * Marco Polo is alleged to have been born on the Croatian island of Kor&#269;ula, to a Slavic family called Polić natively but changed to de Polo in order to naturalize to the Venetian government (Dalmatia was mostly ruled by Venice those days), and later moved to Venice themselves. The de Polo's still live in Korčula today (my mother happens to be from there so I know for sure), and there's a house that's a small tourist attraction because it's "the birthplace of Marco Polo", but whether the explorer himself was (or the extent of his heritage) from this family is not so certain AFAIK.


 * Joseph Haydn was from Burgenland (Gradišće), a province in easternmost Austria today that's known to be inhabited by many Croats (gradišćanski Hrvati), and many of his compositions are recorded by him as coming from folk songs. There are families in Croatia called Hajdinjak and similar, so many speculate that Haydns were originally Croats from Burgenland, but again, this is not at all certain.


 * Rudjer Josip Boscovich was from Dubrovnik, and he was definitely a famous citizen of a Croatian city, but it's pretty stretched to outright declare him Croat. See the long discussion on that talk page.


 * Serbian --Igor


 * Emile Zola is speculated to be Croat by some French scientist apparently amicable towards the Croats in general, based on some Croatian-sounding terms used in his literature? Very stretched to say the least.


 * Nikola Tesla was from Croatia but was from a Serb family (probably originally Vlachs due to the last name), not Croat.


 * You are embarrassing yourself as usual, Tesla is not a Vlach surname, it is a plowing tool, Slavic word. See town of Tesli&#263; as well. --Igor

I think I also saw several Croatian Jews listed -- the extent of their naturalization should probably be verified before declaring them Croats.

Also there's Slavoljub Eduard Penkala, who was not ethnically Croat but willfully became naturalized Croat. Conversely, Ivo Andri&#263; was ethnically Croat but willfully became naturalized Serb. I suppose listing both kinds is the best compromise, but I'm not sure if that's the consensus.

So, anyway, my point is: tread lightly. --Shallot 17:46, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Marco Polo
As with above information, the arguments for the theory that Marco Polo was a Croatian are very controversial and are pseudohistorical. As typed above under Doubts, the allegation is such that those purporting its authenticity claim Marco Polo was born on the Croatian island of Kor&#269;ula, to a Slavic family called Polić natively but changed to de Polo in order to naturalize to the Venetian government. Because there is a house (tourist attraction) dubbed the "birthplace of Marco Polo" and the fact that there is a de Polo family living on Kor&#269;ula is neither here nor there. It does not equate to substantial or significant evidence that Marco Polo actually of Slavic extraction. The theory is also put forward with unfounded claims that because there is a de Polo family in Argentina who speak Croatian, suddenly this is irrefutable evidence that someone who lived as far back as the 13th century could be somehow connected to these Croatian migrants in Argentina (see discussion on Marco Polo's wiki entry for further details and evidence inThe "Polo" surname).

Marco Polo should not be added here in the entry of famous Croatian explorers. The integrity of Wikipedia is under scrutiny in such cases where pseudohistorical and poorly argued points are presented as fact. Paullus 23:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Paullus 23:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC) Marco Polo is still being added with the dubious name of Marko Polic (there is absolutely no historical recording ever attesting to this name having ever been associated with Marco Polo). According to Wikipedia policy, all additions must be verifiable, which the theory of Marco Polo being from Korčula is not. Look at the discussion on The "Polo" surname under Marco Polo.

Wikipedia's integrity degrades each time someone adds unfounded claims such as this, claims which are not verifiable. Paullus 23:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Paullus 05:13, 7 April 2006 (UTC) Hello Cold water, have a look at a message I posted on your personal discussion page regarding this topic please. Hope to hear from you soon, thanks Paullus 05:13, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Paullus 02:41, 10 April 2006 (UTC) Hi Cold Water, thanks for your message, I've sent you another one. Check out your user profile and go to the tab "discussion", from there you can read my new message and edit it to put another one for me to read. All the best Paullus 02:41, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

John Malkovich
As for John Malkovich- http://www.allstarz.org/~malkovich/financial.html Even though of Croatian and Scottish descent, Malkovich had a relatively typical Midwestern upbringing in the small Illinois town of Benton, some 300 miles south of Chicago. His father published a conservation magazine and his mother ran the local newspaper. So there was no reason for the chubby and much-ridiculed John to be interested in sophisticated European culture -- until he went to college. In 1976 he dropped out of a drama degree at Illinois State University, moved to Chicago and co-founded with several old friends the Steppenwolf Theatre Company, where he acted in and directed works by classic and modern European authors. It would become one of the most recognised regional groups in the US.

As much as Malkovich values its tradition and way of life, he says Europe is "not a place I take incredibly seriously: after all, it was the homeland of the Inquisition, totalitarianism, genocide and the invention of several bloody crusades". He also has harsh words for its media for what he deems unfair treatment of the US.83.131.114.18 21:30, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Not only that, but he recently (2003) came to Croatia and commented publically on his two grandparents who emigrated from the country into the States. --Shallot 22:15, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * And not only that: I remember that back in 1991, Malkovich made a TV spot (actually, it was conceived by Croatian-American artist Nenad Bach) wherein he recited IN CROATIAN first 5-7 lines of Croatian National anthem "Lijepa naša domovino". It was a sign of support for the Croatian struggle for independence in war against Serbian aggression.Mir Harven 13:07, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

John Malkovich is actually of Serb origin and not of Croatian origin. His last name is of Serb origin and even though he says he's from Croatia, he's not actually a Croat. This hymn reciting was a mistake and he didn't really know what they were asking of him. He admitted that later on in print. BBC has him listed as of Serb origin: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/tennis/features/newsid_2893000/2893189.stm


 * Even if all you said was true, and I'm far from convinced it is esp. the blather at the end, none of that that would preclude his listing on this page. --Shallot 18:46, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * OK, BBC puts him as Serbian, now what guys, BBC is Greater Serbian propaganda too? A Maljkovic christened me and he is Serbian (from Lika), now what. I am taking him off just like Tesla and Pete Maravich. You Croats are going to have to find someone else to steal celebrities from, I suggest you claim Leonardo da Vinci on top of Marco Polo, Mozart as well as Haydn. --Igor


 * Just for the record, I have not been able to confirm anything about this admittal of Malkovich's, it's rather unsurprising to see Serbs and Croats with the same last and/or first names, and it's also entirely unsurprising to see Igor badmouth "us Croats" for whatever. I looked up Maravich and it seems that he was a Serb so that listing was apparently plain wrong (committed by the anonymous 6x.y.z.w user, I should mention), and the Polo and Haydn entries committed by the same user are also on shakey ground, but using that as an excuse to remove Tesla altogether is just too transparent. --Shallot 16:59, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Igor, and others. Just because you know some Serbs with surname Maljković, it doesn't mean that every family on this world with that surname are Serbs. Have you asked yourself are there any Croats with surname Maljković? Have you ever looked at Croatian phonebook? Maljković are Croatian family from a village near Split, for example. And first, John Malkovich said that his family are Croats, and that they come from Ozalj near Karlovac. Ozalj, the old Frankopan town. At last, does anybody believe that a "Serb" from a second American-born generation, would stand on Croatia's side in 1990's? Talking about Tesla, there's something interesting he once said: "I'm a Croat, because Croats and Serbs are one nation." We have to have in mind that he had a picture of Croats and Serbs from Lika. Not the Serbs from Šumadija. Taking Haydn as possible Croat is not without reason. In his works he took motives from Croatian songs. That doesn't proove, but points to that direction.Kubura.

2 years ago, John Malkovich gave an interview to croatian magazine, where he gave full information on his background. He said his paternal grandfather came from Ozalj in Western Croatia to USA. John´s father spoke Croatian, and John himself only knows some croatian curses and greetengs. The town of Ozalj is almost 100% populated with Croats, and all people who´s last name is Malkovic, not Maljkovic are Croats. Even today, there are some relatives of John, and they are not Serbs. They still live in Ozalj in Karlovac county. I would like you to ask if you don´t know for sure, and then write on the internet.
 * As per The Serbian Americans by Jerome Kisslinger, Chelsea House Publishers New York 1990 pages 99-101 John Malkovich is a Serb. The consulting editors for this book were:
 * Ann Orlov, Managing editor, Harvard Encyclopedia of American Ethnic Groups, Harvad MA
 * M.Mark Stolarik - President, The Balch Institute for Ethnic Studies, Philadelphia
 * David M. Reimers, Professor of History, New York University
 * James F Watts, Chairman, History Department, City College of New York

Rename
It occurs to me that a better title for the page would be list of Croatians, because that doesn't imply ethnic nationalism, rather a link with the country, which may or may not be combined with ethnicity. And to avoid any claims of misappropriation, ethnic classification and/or name of political entity that controlled the place a person was from can be added next to each name. --Shallot 22:15, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Done now. Should be reasonably uncontroversial now. --Shallot 12:57, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

-

More Doubts
Eh, that anonymous user went through the whole page like a tornado again... among other questionable things, Pope Sixtus V Croatian?? I googled and found some site from Herceg Novi saying he was the son of a Serb... brrr, this looks like another Pandora's box. --Shallot 00:13, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * The page about the Bokelji adds a somewhat explanatory twist on this story. --Shallot 21:38, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think you mixed Pope Sixtus V, with Lepopold Mandich. Leopold Mandich was Montenergrian. An Ortodox who bacame a Catholic priest. Pope Sixtus V, was from Croatian father, born in Croatian village of Krusevo in Zadar county. His last name was Perich.


 * Leopold Mandić is from Croatia. His grandparents are Croats from Zakučac. Often the Serbs (and Montenegrins) have this confusion, because of surname Mandić that appear also among Montenegrins in Herceg-Novi area (eventually Leopold Mandić is born in there). See Sveti Leopold Mandić u svetištu Zakučac na Cetini, Sv. Leopold Mandić, "ljudima prijatelj, Poljički sin Leopold Mandić, Vatikanska niša čeka našeg sveca, Blagoslov novouređene kapelice u Zakučcu. Or, if you want it this way, look the Croatian phonebook and you'll find surname Mandić among Croats from that area. Kubura 15:03, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

-

Rick Rossovich
Found another odd case: Rick Rossovich, an actor from California, had a great-great-grandfather who lived in Mošćenička Draga (on the coast in the Istria county). His IMDb entry, however also has an entry saying that this person was actually a Serb from Krajina, but the aforementioned place is not. --Shallot 22:31, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * Quot"His IMDb entry, however also has an entry saying that this person was actually a Serb from Krajina". I suppose you mean http://www.us.imdb.com/name/nm0001685/bio ? This is a complete nonsense, added by some propagandist. There are no Rosovi&#263; Serbs in "Krajina", and one can very well see this by typing this surname into search window of Cro phonebooks, http://www.htnet.hr/imenik/fset.html . Well, type Rosovi&#263;, and you'll find 12 persons, all Croats (according to first names-one of them Hrvoje/Croat) in and around Mo&#353;&#263;eni&#263;ka Draga. Judging from clumsy syntax and pathetic effort to inform the public that "Krajina" (written as "Kranija") is not to be confused with Croatia or anything Croatian- it's pretty obvious that Serbian agitprop had been nosing around. I've seen Rossovich IMDB bio and there was no "Krajina" part. Then I've written in Wiki he was of Croatian ancestry. And, lo and behold- magically, "Krajina" ad appears on the Rossovich bio page. Coincidence. Yeah, in some parallel universe.Mir Harven 23:53, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I had a bad feeling about it given the geographical inconsistency and bad spelling. How perverse. Thank you, I've just submitted the correction to the IMDb staff. --Shallot 02:14, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Rick Rossovich actually is Croat, but one of his ancestors was a Serb from Krajina. But this is such a small portion that he can not be considered a Serb. If you were to sum it up he is 6.25% (1/16th) Serb.

Rick Rossovich Unofficial Homepage http://www.rickrossovich.de with a Bio of German and many Photos.

IMDb again says: "Is of Serbian/Italian descent, Moscenicka Draga is home of his paternal great-great grandfather. Maternal ancestry is Italian.". So, umm... --Joy &#91;shallot&#93;   23:53, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Rossovich (Rosović) family are not the Serbs at all. They are of Montenegrin origin. Rosović's are from a small village on Istria peninsula, in Croatia (though, many of them declared themselves as Croats, before Croatia proclaimed independence ). So that info (from Krajina??) on IMDb came from some greaterserbianist who has no connection to real life and the real world. Kubura 13:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks from Shallot
ChrisO, thanks for extending the introduction, though I doubt that it will help much with handling the abuse of those who consider the mere notion of association with a word involving the letters "C"/"H" and "R" is something abhorrent, and there certainly seem to be enough of those to go around... --Shallot 14:07, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * What did I tell you... --Shallot 21:38, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

More on Haydn
I've taken Haydn off the list again. Look, even William Hadow, who seems to have been a pretty ardent Croatianist, only speculated that Haydn was Croatian, and offered only circumstantial evidence. Moreover, a lot of Hadow's "evidence" is utterly subjective and based only on nationalist stereotypes.

If there is solid documentary evidence, gathered since Hadow's day, that Haydn was of Croatian ancestry, I'd be happy to see this claim restored to the page. But speculation in the Wikipedia should labeled as such, not presented as fact. --Opus33 22:09, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * This anonymous user is really making a mess... --Shallot

Maradona
Maradona is not a Croatian player thats for sure!!!!! Avala 13:22, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I just found some info that some croatian TV once said but never confirmed again that Maradona has roots in Croatia. It was said something like his grand grand grand father from mothers side was Croat. Even if this is true than you can say grand grand grand father of Maradona was Croat but you have to provide his name too.

For an example- Elizabeth II has family roots in Serbia but she is still English not Serbian.


 * Yeah, the overzealous anonymous user is at it again. I've moderated him on several occasions now... *shrug* --Shallot 18:44, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Just for the record, the best information I dug out about this was this short article that references other works but doesn't name them, and it's just one great-grandmother. --Shallot


 * Ovu informaciju, navodi, duguje Ljeposlavu Perini&#263;u, "hrvatskom kralju lutaka". Perini&#263;, Hrvat koji je nakon drugog svjetskog rata emigrirao u Argentinu, ro&#273;en je 1922..
 * I think that we all know who was runnig to Argentina after WWII :(
 * Avala 11:47, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Not that this is particularly relevant to the matter at hand, but if you think he must have been a fascist, no, that doesn't really have to be. There's was economic emigration, as well as Communism-related emigration at that time. Anyway, again, the primary source isn't the guy who told something to &#381;ubrini&#263;, but the referenced French geneaologist. --Shallot 16:20, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

but still if my grand mother is from papua new guinea i am not papuan new guinean :) and we are talking about grand grand grand... Avala 16:25, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * You would still have Papua-New-Guinean ancestry and if there was a list of such people, it wouldn't be entirely unreasonable to have you listed. A great-grandmother (as in this case) is not exactly close, but if one of his daughters is called Dalma, then it's not unreasonable to assume that he is aware of his links to that branch of his family.
 * Anyway, the right thing to do would be to exclude the corner cases from the main list and have them in a separate section. --Shallot 16:47, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Surname, Name format
It seems that the Surname, Name format has proven to be rather hard to maintain. We could get rid of all those pipe links and keep the page consistent easier. --Shallot 18:11, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Croat
"This is a list of more or less famous people with Croatian heritage, born in or associated with Croatia or of Croatian ancestry, including both Croats and members of Croatia's national minorities:"

From the top of the page. If Avala wishes to create a page of List of ethnic Croats who are also Croatian citizens, please go ahead. However this page isn't it. Like all other country list pages it takes in those of Croat ethnicity wherever they live and those born in Croatian who aren't ethnic Croats. Rmhermen 23:56, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)

AHM AHM Mario Andretti was born in Italy and he is on the list just because that part of Italy is now Croatian!!!!! We can even add Dennis Rodman because he visited Croatia last summer! Why not add anyone who lived in SFRY after all Croatia was part of it so everyone born in SFRY are connected to Croatia and they can be on the list. Also I told you taht your denial of fascism is scaring me! Avala 12:45, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * If Andretti doesn't qualify (parents emigrated after WWII?), that's okay, you don't have to apply reductio ad absurdum with Rodman/SFRY to remove him. The introduction rather clearly delineates who is included. Note also, claiming Istria is "that part of Italy" is rather POV... We can't and shouldn't exclude regions that weren't Croatia forever because then we'd have to exclude them all -- it was all Illyria/Illyricum before. Same goes for most other places in the world... I've no idea what is meant by the fascism reference... --Shallot 16:36, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * His article says they fled Yugoslavia and lived in a displaced persons camp. Sounds like a borderline case but he did live in Croatia for a short time. Rmhermen 18:54, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)


 * I looked up Mario Andretti's history a bit. His birthplace was part of a modern state (of Italy) and his family was Italian. Perhaps suitable for the corner case section... --Shallot 19:34, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * NO. He is suitable for list of Italians because ,I will say again, this is not a list of people connected to Croatia, it clearly says list of Croatians and if he is Italian then I don`t know what are you trying to prove? Maybe you have inferiority complex because there are not enough world famous sportsman that are Croatian so you are laying claims for other people by saying they are Croatian but please heal your problems with your psychiatrist not Wikipedia! Avala 07:51, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * You seriously need to chill out. It's enough that we have one person who cannot be talked to, we don't need another.
 * Also, there needs to be consistency. Nino Benvenuti was also born in the period between the world wars in Istria, and you haven't removed him. --Shallot 13:51, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * OK. Now they are both deleted and please don`t add them again because it is misleading to have them on this page.Avala 19:59, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I would like to keep it that way, but it seems that the anonymous user just won't give up. I think if we provide the explanatory paragraph that this may placate them. --Shallot


 * Anonymous user? WHO IS anonymous user TO MAKE MESS IN HERE? BAN HIM!Avala 19:27, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Perhaps we could establish whether these two gentlemen were ever Croatian citizens. If Andretti was a citizen and lived there a couple years before fleeing, I would say include him as a corner case. If his family fled immediately than he really has no connection. I couldn't find any information in English on Benvenuti -did he live in Croatia at all? Rmhermen 20:37, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)


 * I think No. Maybe at most a year but in hell of life running away from revenge because of what fascist Italians did in WWII. On official website there is not a word about Croatia.Avala

Maradona
IF YOU WANT TO SAY THAT MARADONA IS CROATIAN THEN YOU ARE WRONG-SAY LIKE THIS GREAT GRAND GRAND MOTHER OF MARADONA CALLED XY WAS CROATIAN. IF YOU WANT TO ADD MARADONA CHANGE THE NAME List of Croatians TO List of People Somehow connected to Croatia! Avala 12:49, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't think anyone other than the anonymous user is saying that. They are way overzealous and need to be corrected. If they insist on reverting the page, they will get banned... --Shallot 16:36, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Ivan Duknovic
http://users.tyenet.com/kozlich/baroque.htm

http://www.amb-croatie.fr/culture/renaissance_croatie.htm

More to come. Mir Harven 17:48, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't think I removed this... I traced that person's pseudonym that has an article already, and moved the page accordingly, but it needs work. --Shallot 17:54, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Latest crap commits
This time it wasn't just the 6x.y.z.w anonymous user, it was also User:GeneralPatton :( FYI: the ordering is alphabetical, the word "hero" is entirely unsuitable, explain on Miroslav Filipovic-Majstorovic how it's a "lie" before changing his entry here (let alone removing it!), Kurjak certainly seems to be from Croatia even if you wish to insult him for being Bosniak and mafia, Branko Lustig has a page so you can list his religion there, etc, etc. Kindly refrain from further mass-demolition. --Shallot 11:40, 9 May 2004 (UTC)


 * 1) Sve ono o Miroslavu Filipovicu-Majstorovicu, sve one fantazije o jesenovcu, je četnička propaganda, ako netko več treba da bude mass muderer, onda je tito, sa svim križnim putevima i golim otocima najbolji kandidat o tome. Titov režim i njegovi komunistički teroristi su pobili oko 500.000 Hrvata, a po nekima, to čak ide do 1 milijun!

http://www.freedomsnest.com/rummel_murderers.html Josip Tito 	yugoslavia 	1941-1987 	1,172,000


 * Very funny. Tito died in 1980 and is the hero of the Yugoslavs. All your propaganda has landed you in poverty about some religion you yourselves dont follow. (March 22nd, 06)


 * That is entirely inconsequential. When the primary characteristic that seems to make a person known is mass murder, they should be listed as such. When the primary characteristic that makes a person known is being a politician, ditto. --Shallot


 * 1) Kurjak je dokazani kriminalac, komunistički sin, musliman rođen u Bosni. To što sad živi u Hrvatskoj ništa ne znači, a ionako sad najviše radi po Bosni. Mene vrijeđa to što je na ovom popisu, to je kao da bi netko napisao muhameda attu pod poznate Amerikance, samo zato što je neko vrijeme živio u Americi.


 * I guess you'd have to discuss that with the 6x.y.z.w user who initially added him. As far as I know, he's a known figure from Croatian public life and has no less place on this list than other such people. --Shallot


 * 1) Lustig je židov koji sa Hrvatskom, osim mjesta rođenja, nema ništa. On ne zaslužuje da da bude na ovom popisu velikana, isto kao i razne mire furlan, srbkinje koje isto nemaju ništa sa Hrvatskom, i brojni drugi. Lustig ništa nije uradio za Hrvatsku, a mogao bi, nego snima filmove po maltama, maroku... ma goni ga.


 * First of all, this is not a list of great men, simply of more or less famous people. Secondly, Lustig is widely recognized as Croatian, in Croatia and abroad, regardless of his ethnicity/religion, and Furlan is as well (and she is not Serbian, that's a factual error). Personal preference, or lack thereof, simply cannot be a criterion for inclusion in the list. --Shallot


 * 1) Redosljed je najbolje napraviti po važnosti!


 * That's biased by the very definition. Who determines the importance? You? Me? Random anonymous users? It simply wouldn't work. --Shallot

A GENERALI GOTOVINA, NORAC I BOBETKO JESU HEROJI, I UVJEK ČE TO BIT!


 * Again, this is an encyclopedia, not another random Internet forum for everyone to express their views on life, universe, and everything. See Neutral point of view.


 * You are also breaching netiquette by using a language foreign to this section of Wikipedia. Sadly enough, at the same time making numerous spelling errors in that language. Please refrain from further embarrassment and cease the abuse of this article. --Shallot 10:14, 11 May 2004 (UTC)


 * I AM REALLY ANGRY THAT YOU CONSIDER GOTOVINA AND BOBETKO HEROES. BOBETKO I THINK WAS EVEN SENTENCED IN THE HAGUE FOR KILLING SERBIAN PEOPLE! I AM DEEPLY DISSAPOINTED!!! --Avala 21:11, 11 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Just a factual correction: Gotovina and Bobetko were indicted in the Hague, not convicted; Norac was indicted and convicted in Croatia. --Shallot 09:47, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Well ONE is enough even too much! It reminds me of some idiots in Belgrade which call Milosevic a hero even though he is is responsible for murder not only bosniaks but serbs too.

GeneralPatton also wrote in commit logs (partly translated):
 * - mak dizdar, islamized commie


 * That's pure bias. --Shallot


 * - Fadil Hadži&#263; was Tito's Muslim propagandist, proof : crap known as "Desant na Drvar". Commie yes, Croat, NO!


 * And again bias, and inability to read the initial paragraph. It is indicative that it seems to be impossible to explain both to Serbian and Croatian ultra-nationalists that the list cannot include just ethnic Croat people. --Shallot


 * took out the link to "* List of Slavs" since recent DNA tests have proven that Croats are mostly not of slavic origin (just 20%)


 * That reasoning is just bonkers. Should you interpret the genetic analyses like that, you would find that many Slavic nations of today are "mostly not of Slavic origin". Anyway, the argument that genetics somehow overrule the course of the last two milleniums of history, is specious IMHO. --Shallot 10:22, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

For the record, I found by googling that Viktor Bubanj held the rank of general in the WWII partizan army, and once had a barracks named after him in Sarajevo and a grade school in Zagreb, and he was branded by user GeneralPatton as "terrorist". At the same time, Ustasa members such as Jure Francetić were branded by him as "freedom fighters". This is amusingly in line with the popular saying "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". I have therefore removed all such verbiage from the article. Among other things, his includes Avala's note on Pavelić. We should stick to general descriptions here and leave the juicy details for people's articles. If someone wishes to say something about someone, don't make passing remarks in here which may only cause controversy. Instead, click the person's name and write it up, it's easy. --Shallot 12:40, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

It is better?
How is it better to write that Pavelic was politician when he was ustasha leader? Adolf Hitler was not funny little man even if somebody think so.


 * Regardless, they were essentially politicians. We may think that their kind of politics/policies were abhorrent, but that doesn't make the fact that they were politicians any less true or less pertinent. --Shallot 16:42, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

But picture worths 1000 words!

Here, it says it all:



I just hope that you will not say that he is waving to the children on this picture because we all know that he is waving to him.

Avala 09:33, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

And this picture is the one you can`t oppose to!



He was Hitler`s puppet just like Pavelic made Croatia to be.

Avala 09:38, 13 May 2004 (UTC)


 * And all this is perfectly well described in his article and those that are linked from that article. (If not -- go ahead and add it to those pages.) This is merely a list of people, we can't include pictures and whatnot, it would become extremely cluttered if we started doing that. --Shallot 16:42, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Malkovich is Croatian name, and John Malkovich is really a Croat. Who does'nt believe can check the Croatian phonebook, just type 'Malković': http://imenik.ht.hr/

In the List? and Croatian?

 * Lujo Tončić-Sorinj
 * --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 13:48, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

czech president?
Isn't the new czech president of Croat descent?

Why not...
... include historical prominent individuals into the article? --HolyRomanEmperor 23:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Proposition to shorten article...
I think that it is un necessary to have so many people listed. We a section for "Builders" and half of it is with red links that most people have never heard of. A lot of sections are not very desirable. I think we should just leave the list to the most influential successful people and cut out the rest to shorten it. It will also keep people reading the page. Anybody agree?

JJstroker 05:49, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Modifying peoples' articles.../Deleting names...
Some people are deleting names, or deleting them and adding them to the Serbian list, without explaning why...

Or going on to the person's article and modifying information, deleting the original info into something else, without explaning...

Maury Povich
A lot of people have thought that Maury Povich could be of Serbian or Croatian ancestry...

His father Shirley Povich was born in the USA to Jewish parents from Lithuania.

Beethoven
His mother was Slav, her maiden name was Keverich, a not so common name anywhere in the world, but there's Croatian Keverics...

Joe Lapchick
He is an NBA Hall of Famer, I wonder if his original name was Lapcic

Belichick = Belicic / Lapchick = Lapcic?

Nationality of Josip Broz
It is written that Josip Broz is a person of Yugoslav nationality. However, on many occasions he claimed to be a Croat. For instance during his visit in Bregana on the 5th of July 1971. he said to general secretary of the Central Committee of the League of Communists of Croatia at the time (Savka Dabčević-Kučar): "You think that I do not have any national feelings. You think that I do not consider myself to be a Croat, that I left our country as young proletarian, that the proletarian internationalism had superseded any national feeling from me. I am an internationalist, because we are the communists and we must be internationalists. However, I am also a Croat." (D. Bilandžić, Hrvatska moderna povijest, Golden marketing, Zagreb, 1999., p. 601.) Therefore, I believe that it should not be written that Josip Broz is a person of Yugoslav nationality. Brunislav 19:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Cathie Couric
Anyone knows if she is of Croatian descent?

NHL, John Kordic and late picks
I read and heard that he was half Native-American and that he had a Yugoslavian uncle that played pro-football.

Where did you hear that his mother was from Mostar?

And also I suggest that the late picks that u've added be on another page, below the NHL players that have actually played in the NHL be a link to another page with NHL picks of Croatian descent.

Gervais is a french-canadian name, what makes u think he is of Croatian descent.

For Gervais, see my answer on your page. There's a small group of Croats with surname Gervais. That's why I put him on the list as a person of possible Croat origin. Kubura 09:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

About John Kordic, search the net. His father is Ivan and mother is Regina. They are from around Mostar. Only Croats have such surname there. Where did you got the info that he's half-native American? Kubura 09:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

It says so on many sites, google it... He did kinda look like part Native... although it could be false...

Tennis Players
I wonder if Gisela Dulko (#1 of Argentina) is of Croatian descent. Dulko doesn't seem like an argentine name. Dujko?

NBA Hall of Famers
Lapchick - Mihalik - Havlicek - Gulick --- These players could be of Croatian descent...

I have read on some websites that Pete Maravich was of Croatian descent... does anyone know for sure?

rename?!
Fucking hell. This was moved from List of Croatians to List of Croats without explanation on Talk by this anonymous edit which is also an improper move (losing page history). Of all the lame ass crap I've seen, the kind which hurts the most is the one ignored for months... --Joy &#91;shallot] 22:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/62.203.50.120 - it shows just those two edits. I simply can't believe that this didn't catch the attention of an administrator. --Joy &#91;shallot] 22:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

poll: list of Croats or list of Croatians?
Let's have a poll - should we maintain a list of Croats (only ethnic Croats) or a list of Croatians (both ethnic Croats and other people from Croatia)? Or both? Or none?! --Joy &#91;shallot] 22:56, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

List of Croatians
Both should on the list, what are u kidding me, why take off fifth generation Croats off the list? what kind of a joke is that? I suggest then that u take off all the immigrants to the US (Schwarzenegger, etc.) and sons of immigrants (Pacino, etc.) from the American list.
 * please add your vote below this line and sign it with ~ 

List of Croats

 * please add your vote below this line and sign it with ~ 

Both lists separately

 * please add your vote below this line and sign it with ~ 

Neither list

 * please add your vote below this line and sign it with ~ 

-

Fun Facts *TRIVIA* Small-Time Croatian Celebrities
Small-time actors shouldn't be on the main list, but add them here!!!


 * Josip Elic - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest - Plays Bancici, one of the mental patients in the asylum
 * Marietta Marich - The Texas Chainsaw Massacre (2003 remake and 2006 prequel (not yet released)) Plays Luda Mae (fat woman in trailer)


 * Helen Vidovich - Miss Pennsylvania 1954
 * Martha Viducich - Miss Oregon 1980
 * Tanya Pogatchnik - Miss Montana 1996??? (Slovenian?)
 * Angela Janich - Miss Montana 1995
 * Mitriann Popovich - Miss Montana 1972
 * Jennifer Mikelinich - Miss New York 1983???

THESE TWO I DUNNO TO WHICH ETHNIC GROUP THEY BELONG TO
 * Ladija Vera Manic - Miss International 1975 (Yugoslavia)
 * Dzejla Glavovic - Miss Earth 2002 (Bosnia-Herzogvina - later dethroned)

Deal or No Deal contestant Susan? Batkovic from Ohio was on Friday 28 April and will be back Monday

WHO'S DELETING THE MOST WELL-KNOWN AMERICAN-CROATS?
SOMEONE IS TAKING THEM OFF THE LIST, WHO IS AND WHY?

WHO'S THE FRUSTRATED, ARROGANT SERB DELETING THEM?
 * I am the frustrated, arrogant serb (yeah right) deleting them, and I will keep deleting them as soon as I'm clear in not breaking 3RR. You can't put a definition at the top of this list. It's a break of Wikipedia's No original research policies. You can't decide who is Croatian or not - you can only list people who reliable sources have described as Croatian. Croatian nationals make sense. You can't list Americans who have Croatian grandparents - that's what the Croatian-American list is for. Mad Jack O&#39;Lantern 05:10, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * There, I've removed the definition. Please do not include people in this list who are not actually Croatians. If we have a list called "List of Croatians", then the people on it must actually be Croatians, not people of other nationalities who are of Croatian descent. Otherwise you're violating the Original Research policy Mad Jack O&#39;Lantern 05:41, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Then go on the Italian list, and delete Pacino, and the rest of them, if you're not a Serb.Also, why are you only deleting the most known American-Croats???What's that about?John Malkovich has refered to himself as Croat many times, and as far as I know he currently lives in Croatia.


 * Al Pacino isn't on List of Italians. Neither are any Americans. Pacino is on List of Italian-Americans, however, and that's where he belongs, just as Malkovich is on List of Croatian-Americans. Every list has to obide by Wikipedia policy. Malkovich currently lives in Croatia? Is he a Crotian citizen? If yes, then he should be on this list, but you'll have to give a source to prove that he is. Mad Jack O&#39;Lantern 17:40, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * my ethnic background is irrelevant, although I can freely say that I probably have never met either a Croatian or a Serb in my life, short of watching John Malkovich in Art School Confidential last week. I've been formatting and correcting a large number of these kind of lists during the past week. This is neither the first, nor the last - by the time I'm done all of these lists should be in line with Wikipedia's policies, which they have to be. If Malkovich described himself as "Croatian" then it does fit the Verifibiality policies with this title, however, do you have a reliable source that he described himself as that? If yes, we can put him up here with that source. Mad Jack O&#39;Lantern 19:02, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Alicia Keys isn't on the "Italian" list, though she may well be on the Italian-Americans list. I've done part of that list and will finish off soon. I know what I said about Malkovich, but technically if a reliable source (including of course himself) has described him as "Croatian" (without the American part) then he could be included, although it's a bit iffy. Yes, please give me the link for Malkovich and I will restore him myself if it's a good source. Mad Jack O&#39;Lantern 19:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually you were right, Keys was on it. But I removed her. Looks like that page may also need my attention. Mad Jack O&#39;Lantern 19:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * To answer your question (even though you just deleted it) - Well, the No original research policy. It says "Articles may not contain any unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas; or any new analysis or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas that serves to advance a position." Putting a person on a "List of Croatians" is saying that they are "Croatian". Putting a person who has never been described as being "Croatian" by a reliable source (as opposed to "of Croatian descent" or "Croatian-American") on such a list is original research - calling a person "a Croatian" who has never been called such by anyone except Wikipedia. Mad Jack O&#39;Lantern 19:19, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Like I said, again, if a person is described as a "Gypsy" or "Roma", which they often are, then they can be on that list. Same thing for here. Anyway, I think we may create a page called "List of Croatian diaspora", that would help with all the other people who haven't been described as just "Croatian". Mad Jack O&#39;Lantern 19:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know what it makes you, there is no official definition or rule. You could say that "Person A" is a "Croatian" because of this and this, and I can say they aren't a "Croatian" because of that and that. That's why Wikipedians can't decide these things. We just report what reliable sources have said about these people - if they called them "Croatian", then we can call them that too. But if they didn't - we don't have the authority to make that call. Mad Jack O&#39;Lantern 19:39, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I deleted my previous posts because I was rude. We were just having fun adding all the famous Croats of the world to this list.
 * That's ok, apology accepted (if that was one). I am in the process of creating the page Croatian diaspora. Feel free to add the Croatians of the world, so to speak, there. Mad Jack O&#39;Lantern 19:48, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Why are u taking out only the popular names?

Here are some solutions to the problem. List of Croatians is created for all that are citizens of Croatia (not necessarily Croats). List of Croats contains Croats by origin and by declaring (not necessarily citizens of Croatia). And that's it. Malkovich is Croat, but not Croatian. Milan Đukić (leading Serb politician in Croatia) is a Croatian, but not Croat. Regarding origin, person can have origin from more than one nationality. It shouldn't be the problem if person has "more origins". But Jack O'Lantern, what about the case when noone makes a webpage about certain person, but it is known among Croats (in certain Croat family) that certain person is their relative/Croat? Or when only the online phonebook can be the argument? Kubura 11:16, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense
Just wanted to add a few remarks:

The list as given does not have a sigle common criterion applicable to all people listed here:


 * Andric, Prelog - Nobel prize winners, explicitly refused to be counted as Croats--Purger 15:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * In the whole its history and existence, Dubrovnik/Ragusa never was a part of any Croatia, nor Ragusans ever counted themselves as Croats. So, Drzic, Gundulic, Boscovic (father Serb, mother Italian) are definitely not Croats--Purger 15:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Marin Držić and Ivan Gundulić were one of the most famous croatian writers. Gundulic is one of the few writers most responsible for stnadardisation of Croatian language. Of course, some greater Serbian ideologers believe that Croatia should be limited only to territory visible from the top of Zagreb cathedral, but that is their problem. Even user HRE (from Serbia), which has been accuses of spreading serbian propaganda calls him famous Croatian writer. Your ideas are quite extreme, but, on the other hand, we knew that before. --Ante Perkovic 13:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Today's idea of Croatdom was developed in the second half of nineteen century and it is meaningless to extend this idea back to the past, on the territories which never were part of any Croatia (Istria, Ragusa), nor people who lived in the past on these territories - ever counted themselves as Croats. Applying such nonsense, someone could claim that Archimedes was an Italian, Tales - a Turk, Ptolemay - an Arab, even though that all three were Greeks.--Purger 15:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Archimedes, Tales, Ptolemay... if you can find Croats that are contemporary with these people, please remove them. Otherwise, don't bring them here to prove the point because it looks like manipulation with the facts. Sneaky!. --Ante Perkovic 13:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * On the other hand, putting Tesla (the Serb) on the same list with Pavelic (Nazi war criminal who organized and conducted extermination of the Serbs in so-called Independet State of Croatia), or Andric (world renown writer and the Serb) who publicly refused to be marked as Croat along with Mile Budak (an Ustashe, Nazi war criminal, amateur as a writer) - is even immoral. --Purger 15:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Andric was born Croat, and later choose not to declare himself as Croat. I don't think someone may just stop being Croat by free will. It's like I refused to be declared as human because I don't want to be the same species like some people I don't like. --Ante Perkovic
 * Andric's etnic/national background was his personal matter - as it is the case among civilised people. Therefore, what he had said about himself, that must be accepted as is - without any discussion, check, or approval. What he was at his birth - that might be claimed only by his parents which are dead long ago. Nothing is recorded, nothing is known. As per Andric's close friends and contemporaries:


 * William H. McNeill, the world renown historian and the Professor Emeritus of History at the University of Chicago: They (Ivo and his mother) went to live with her parents in Visegrad ... The family was Orthodox Christian, i.e. Serb;
 * Lovett F. Edwards, the translator of Andric's books: Dr Ivo Andric is himself a Serb and a Bosnian.
 * All the above comes from the introduction and the foreword of The Bridge on the Drina, The University of Chicago Press, 1977--Purger 23:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You can't really expect that everybody on the list will have positive view on everybody else on the list. Andric's opinion on Pavelic and Budak is irrelevant here. --Ante Perkovic 13:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Charlie Chaplin
Charlie Chaplin - born as Karlo Čapljinac, actor, film director and producer (Winner of 1 Oscar Award)

Truly hilarious...

If Tesla was a Serb, Andric was a Croat
Serbs want both.


 * Nope - Andric said he was not a Croat:


 * When Krleza attempted to allign Ivo with Croats - Ivo responded this way


 * Enes Cengic; "Krleza post mortem", I-III. Svjetlost, Sarajevo, 1990. 2. part, pages 171-172
 * " Medjutim, s tekstom o Andricu za staru Enciklopediju stvari su tekle ovako: Tekst je napisao Milan Bogdanovic i poslao ga meni na imprimatur, kao biva, da li ga primam ili ne. Kao ni mnoge druge tekstove, vjerovali vi sad meni ili ne ... ja tekst o Andricu nisam citao. Mislio sam: Neka pise sto hoce, tako cemo to i objaviti. Ionako je bilo iznad moje moci da tu ista diram i ispravljam. Mjesec ili ne znam koliko nakon sto mi je poslao tekst, primim od Milana pismo u kojem mi kaze da je kopiju teksta dao Ivi Andricu na uvid te da on moli da budem ljubazan i da u tekstu nesto izmijenim, a to je:
 * Ivo Andric, rodjen u Travniku 10.10.1892. godine, hrvatskog porijekla, zavrsio skole itd.... Moli me da brisem da je hrvatskog porijekla. Na to odgovaram Bogdanovicu (oprostite sto citiram):


 * Dragi moj Milane,
 * Pozdravi Ivu Andrica u moje ime, veoma srdacno,i poruci mu, ako mozes, da mu ja jebem hrvatsku majku, brisat cu da je hrvatskog porijekla."


 * Shortly, Milan Bogdanovic wrote a text of Andric's biography, presented the text copy to Andric. Andric asked Bogdanovic to remove the note saying that he (Ivo) was a man of Croatian lineage.


 * Andric was an Ethnic Croat point, Tesla was a fifth generation Croat

Croatian war criminals
Yes, these soldiers of the Croatian army were war criminals

1. Rahim Ademi 2. Janko Bobetko 3. Ante Gotovina 4. Mirko Norac

Their only personal military 'achievements' were killed children and elderlies, raped women, and looted and burned homes of the Serbs. That's why they are in the Hague (Ademi, Gotovina)or already in jail (Norac). Bobetko died and that way escaped the Hague.

It is shameful to put them on the list along with the Serbs Andric and Tesla!

No, those people are only accused for crimes. You will have to wait until proces begins. --Ante Perkovic 00:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

P R O P O S A L
Reading fom this page that


 * Mario Andretti - race car driver (ethnic Italian)

and then reading from Mario Andretti I learned that

''Mario Andretti was born in the town of Motovun (1940) in then Italian Istria. He was born with a twin brother, Aldo Andretti. After World War II Istria (which is part of Croatia) passed to Yugoslavia and his family, like many other Italian Istrians, fled in 1948 and spent the next seven years in a displaced persons camp.''

So, being born as Italian, lived in Yugoslavia for just three years (1945-8), he became Croatian! Just imagine what unseen glory shines upon Mario - after seven years spent in a displaced persons camp, and finally becoming a Croatian!

There was a lot of discussion proving undeniably that Marco Polo was a Croat Marko Pilic or Polic.

The Pilic theory claims: POLO-PILIC, MARCO Croatian Adventurer

The Marco Polo Coat of Arms includes four chickens. In Italian, Polo means chicken or fowl; in Croatian Pilich means chicks or chickens. Accident or coincidence? The Arms are registered in Dalmatia.

Then came a bad mouth and a shameless Italian who spoiled the joy of this scientific discovery:

''"Finellach"  ha scritto nel messaggio news:cm8n4b$hsd$1@ls219.htnet.hr...

> Geos wrote: > > Tell me, my friend, is this the "theory", you are talking about? > > http://www.ikorcula.net/marcopolo/Pilic_Polo_Marko.htm > Yes.

Well, the first think is that chicken in italian is pollo and not "polo". Polo is a Venitian word for "Paul". This simple evidence breaks one of the bases of your theory.''

Yeah, we have still the Polic theory available ...

Following this Pilic-Polic theory, I myself discovered that:


 * Michelangelo - born as Mihovil Angjelic - Ludvik, italienized his name and added Buonarroti


 * Charlie Chaplin - born as Karlo Čapljinac, actor, film director and producer (Winner of 1 Oscar Award)

Also, I am all for Croatian Joe Magarac - due to the fact that magarac means jackass in the contemporary Croatian. It means the same in the contemporary Serbian language - but my patriotic Croatian feelings tell me that the Croats are more jackasses than the Serbs.

At the end, the claim given at the beginning of this list ''The bottom section also includes some corner cases:


 * people born in parts of Illyria/Illyricum before the Great migrations''

gives me an excellent idea to include the Krapina man (see Neanderthal) as the oldest ever known Croat. The only dilemma I have is - where to place him within this list of famous Croatians - Military or Science? Maybe - under both these subsections.

Those who are in favor of one or other section - please, sign below and write the section name you are for! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:4.249.3.240
 * I'm for both sections - therefore Krapina man is the first Croatian general and the first inventor (invented a spiked club used by Croatian Ustashi to smash people's heads)

Anyone visiting this talk page can now profit from an added bonus. The above is an example of a slightly modified version of straw man sock puppet - '''They often act in an unintelligent or uninformed manner, and may behave in an overtly bigoted manner. The effect is often to obfuscate the debate and prevent a serious discussion of the arguments from each side.''' User 4.249.xxx.xxx is nothing more than another pathetic attempt at wasting everybody's time by Serbian nationalistic crap pusher and retarded puppet master user:Purger a.k.a. user:Medule. 83.131.68.72 08:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Michelangelo, Napoleon, etc. as ethnic Croats?
If while reading this article you happen to stumble accross one of these names (or any other which you feel couldn't possibly be there), pay attention to the following:

1. the above has usually been inserted by an anonymous IP or a recently-crated account whose "contributions" are mostly to one of Croatia-related articles. 2. another user (usually an anonymous IP) will eventually insert something like "Oh I don't believe this!" or "Are they kidding?" etc.

Relax and revert. This is a work of an idle creten and a known puppet master user:Purger a.k.a. user:Medule whose idea of spending his time is to log onto Wikipedia under one of his zillion puppet accounts or open proxy addresses and spread his Serbian nationalistic and hateful crap. Basically the guy is just one of those angry-looking unemployed and hairy Serbs living in some ugly Novi Beograd apartment block and blaming the whole world for the misery their shit-hole of a country is in. I guess vandalizing Wikipedia and wasting everybody's time is just his way of escaping his miserable reality. Probably masturbates too while waiting for a page to reload after clicking on "Show preview" button. 83.131.68.167 21:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * "angry-looking unemployed and hairy Serbs living in some ugly Novi Beograd apartment block and blaming the whole world for ..."??? Buahahaha!
 * Luka Golub, Nobel prize winner -  83.131.106.85 - Zagreb, Tudjmanistan, Balkania
 * Michellangelo Buonarotti -  - 70.239.22.239 - Los Angeles, CA, USA
 * Adolf Hitler - 70.30.87.185 - Brampton, ON Canada
 * Krapina man - 4.249.3.159 - Alexandria, VA, USA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.249.9.162 (talk • contribs)


 * Hi Purger. Can stop defamating Croatia? --Ante Perkovic 19:16, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * All above comes from a single person???

Kubura's changes
These changes need partial rev. We shouldn't censor parts related to alledged war crimes, nor add Albanians to the list. Ante.

Partial rev? Which part is done wrong? I disagree with reverting. Kubura 07:29, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

NO MORE PLACE TO ADD NAMES? WE NEED ANOTHER LIST WITH EVERYONE INCLUDED
There's no more space to add names here!!!!!!!!

we need another page somewhere where we can add all the names, PEOPLE WITH CROATIAN ANCESTRY, PEOPLE BORN ON THE TERRITORY OF PRESENT-DAY CROATIA, ETC, EVERYONE THAT HAS ANY KIND OF CONNEXION WITH CROATIA!!!
 * Croatian diaspora is where people who aren't actually Croatians go Mad Jack 17:11, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Why do we need those footnotes on the list of Croatian-Americans
 * We need sources on every X-American page. Mad Jack 20:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think there's too much names here. Many of them are mostly unknown even in Croatia. It had sense putting them here if they are from Croatia, but living in other countries. Kubura 07:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Sarah Blasko
Is Sarah of Croat origin? Blašković? If she is, why is she removed from the list? Kubura 08:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Villains vs. noble men
On the list of Croatians there are two people Nikola Tesla and Mirko Norac. There is no need to tell who was Nikola Tesla. Mirko Norac is a war criminal sentenced to the 13 year term and jailed. During the secession war, he was a commanding officer in the Gospic county area where is the Tesla's birthplace - village of Smiljan. This infamous soldier, the Tudjman's general, is trained as a waiter (this is the only 'military' knowledge and education he posess) and all his military achievements were raped women, killed elderlies and children, looted properties and burned homes.

Accrording to the Jutarnji list - a Croatian daily newspaper, Croatia decided to honor great inventor and scientist - Nikola Tesla, the Serb. Nothing wrong, but

- it shall be known that Ustase (1941) turned to ashes the Serbian orthodox church (where Nikola's father, reverend Milutin served as a priest) and the home where Nikola was born, killed a great number of villagers and destroyed the tombstones/memorials of Nikola's parents (father Milutin and mother Djuka)

- in the same town of Gospic in the year of 1993, the monument erected to honor this great man was blown up to pieces and the town square named after Tesla was renamed - which reads in Croatian below:

http://www.jutarnji.hr/nedjeljni_jutarnji/clanak/art-2006,7,8,memorijalni_kompleks,34822.jl

''Taj je kip bio postavljen na sredisnjem gradskom trgu, koji je tada nosio ime Nikole Tesle, a u međuvremenu je preimenovan u Trg Stjepana Radića. No, u siječnju 1992. Krsinićev je spomenik miniran velikom količinom eksploziva tako da se razletio u komadiće''

Nevertheless, Nikola's home was 'restored' - the original building was made of wood, the new one - all brick and concrete. A brook who was running nearby was diverted to run closely to this new house. The house belongs to the Serbian orthodox church and was looted during the secession war (1991-95) by Croatian police under pretext of saving and protecting Nikola's parents belongings. Of course, all this 'honor' of 'restauration' of Nikola's birthplace was just an ocassion for many Croatian nationalists to polish their images as civilised and educated people. Not a single representative of the Serbian orthodox church or living Tesla's relative (William Terbo, Nikola's grand nephew - for example) is consulted or invited as a guest.

The Gospic town mayor Milan Kolić, who was mayor in the time of blowing up the monument and renaming the Tesla's Square into Stjepan Radic Square says:

- Ovim centrom se grad Gospić, naselje Smiljan i cijela Hrvatska zele oduziti svom slavnom sugrađaninu Nikoli Tesli - rekao je Milan Kolić, gradonačelnik Gospića koji je na čelu grada bio i tijekom Domovinskog rata.

which reads: "By this center (the Tesla's 'restored' home and the Serbian orthodox church rebulid) town Gospic and entire Croatia wants to pay tribute to their famous fellow citizen Nikola Tesla"

The whole article is written in a highly politically correct manner - not a single word that Tesla was not actually a Croat - rather a Serb. Not a single word of apology (coming form Croatians 'dignitaries') for destruction of everything that holds any memory to this great man - Nikola Tesla.

But, as to the new Croatian hero, Mirko Norac - he is still a member of so-called Alka Cavaliers Society (Vitesko alkarsko drustvo) which runs every year a medieval type contest celebrating some victory over Turks some time in the 16th century -in the Croatian town of Sinj.

Learning that, the diplomats acredited in the Croatian capital city of Zagreb - sent message to Croatia - we would not again attend the contest if Norac, a war criminal, is a member of the Alka Cavaliers Society.

http://www.jutarnji.hr/dogadjaji_dana/clanak/art-2006,7,15,sinjska_alka,36003.jl

Diplomati u RH zbog Norca će i ove godine bojkotirati Alku

Iz diplomatskog kora, međutim, stizu vrlo jasni signali kako će veleposlanici, po svemu sudeći, i ove godine bojkotirati Alku, i to zbog činjenice da je Mirko Norac jos uvijek član VAD-a, premda je osuđen za ratne zločine.


 * We don't give a damn about consuls and embassadors and all foreign diplomats. You think that we are helding Alka for them? We, Croats, are holding our traditional knight's game for us. Who cares for the rest of the world.  Kubura 10:01, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


 * These decisions of Croatian tribunal are very doubtful. They are forcefully brought, under pressure from outside the country. That was almost a blackmail. And the whitnesses there were very doubtful. Those whitnesses should be the suspects. What do you expect, when your enemy is a whitness of the prosecutors? Kubura 10:01, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Croatia wasn't in a secession war. Yugoslavia has dissoluted. But that was a Serbian expansionist war. Croatia defended its independence and existence. Kubura 10:01, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Some victory over Turks? "Some"? Well, die, if you can't live with the fact that Croats had a big victory over Ottomans, which Serbia never had. Kubura 10:01, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Ha?
The article says that Serbian patriarch Pavle is of Croatian ancestry. I know that majority of Croatian users here would like the whole Solar system to be of Croatian ancestry, but this is way too much! --Djordje D. Bozovic 11:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE
Man, this entire article should be redone (I mean it!)!!!!! There are way too many (ethnic Serb) brackets in this list! Listen you croats, if the person is an ethnic Serb, don’t even bother adding him/her because they are not one of yours. Also, I can’t believe someone had enough guts to add MARCO POLO or HAYDN on this list. This just goes to show how desperate you people are. Who’s next? Man, I wouldn’t be surprised if Kofi Annan or Abraham Lincoln were listed as croatians! GIVE ME (AND THE REST OF A WORLD) A BREAK!!!!!!!!!!


 * Oh, shut the f*** up. Every possible idiot is turning this page into a phone book and now we even have an idiot who doesn't understand that. How do you know the nationalities of the preople who made a joke out of this page? Are you a mind reader? --Ante Perkovic 14:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see this was your first edit so far! I bet you are the one who made all this mess in the first place! --Ante Perkovic 14:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

A croatian MESS!!!!!!!!!!
The reason why I know this mess [a gigantic list of Serbs, people who have only stepped foot on croatia (which has immediately lead croatians into believing that they are one of theirs), and people who croatians wish were croats (Marco Polo and Haydn)]  was done by croatians is because if it was not (if it was done by other people) the croatians would have surly removed those individuals who are falsely listed as croats. I know first hand that you people are very (obsessively) proud of your race, history, culture, and nation (not afraid, embarrassed, or ashamed of having a national flag that is practically identical to that of the Nazi Ustasha puppet state or of the formation of a giant human swastika during a recent “friendly” soccer match between Italy). If someone vandalizes it (as is seen in this article) you people will go nuts. How come this has not occurred in this article? I would expect this article to have no problems, however this is not the case. This leads me into believing that croats have vandalized this article. Even if it was other nationalities that did this extensive false listing, I can’t believe that croatians would not react to this bogus (like Polo and Haydn as croats). Do you croats actually think that by not removing any of those names that people will think that those individuals (like Haydn) are croatian? LISTEN, PEOPLE ARE NOT STUPID!!!!!!!!!! PEOPLE WILL DOUBT AND RESEARCH!!!!!!!!!! JESUS CHRIST!!!!!!!!!! YOU PEOPLE THINK THAT ANYONE WHO MENTIONS croatia IS croatian. F.U.C.K.!!!!!!!!!!

Ante Perkovic, I can’t believe that you responded to my comment the same day I posted it! DUDE, THIS GUY HIMSELF IS AN EXAMPLE OF A croatian FANATIC!!!!!!!!!! YOU’RE ALWAYS CHECKING IF SOMEONE SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR COUNTRY OR PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!! DUDE, GET A LIFE. IF THERE IS LIKE A MOVIE OUT AND HAS NO THING TO DO WITH croatia, BUT JUST HAS SOME INSIGNIFICANT CHARACTER WHO SAYS croatia, THE ENTIRE croatian COMMUNITY WILL GO TO THE THEATRES TO WATCH THAT MOVIE!!!!!!!!!! I SWEAR!!!!!!!!!!

Apollo Creed 03:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC) The guy who started TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE


 * This is what I ment when I wrote about that other group of idiots in previous section. Thanks for a nice illustration.
 * BTW, your CAPS LOCK key works just fine, but try not to test it here anymore. --Ante Perkovic 08:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


 * LOL. Antidote 13:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)