Talk:List of people from Montana

Feedback
This list seems amazingly complete and asserts notability and location within Montana. All lists seem to get challenged on the basis that they are lists, but if anything was to be challenged I assume it would be the appropriateness of the "Adult entertainment" section (I feel it is appropriate), and I would expect debates about notability within all other sections (this is also appropriate, when civil). Hyacinth 01:25, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I can see your point as to the Adult section, but I agree that it has a place.  As to notability, I am not prepared to defend each listee as to their worthiness -- particularly in the "Athletics" section.  My intention was rather to cast as wide a net as possible and let the community sort out those that don't belong. Deejayk 04:50, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria
A great list! One question, though, is the amount of tenure required to qualify for inclusion -- for example, should prominent people who maintain second or vacation homes in the state be included? Lots of folks -- Ted Turner, Michael Keaton, Tom Brokaw, Huey Lewis, Glenn Close, and many others -- would qualify under that criterion. Pitamakan 15:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'm not really sure where to drawn the line for people like Ted Turner. My initial reaction is to exclude them if they're not natives and not full-time residents and their notariety isn't linked to the state.  I don't really want to expand the list to include everyone who has a vacation home in the state, however, it's difficult to really determine where the line should be drawn.  There are probably a few on the list who have slimmer qualifications than Ted Turner, for example.  Would a new catagory be appropriate for these "carpetbaggers"?


 * In addition, the list includes several people who were born in Montana, but left during their early childhood (e.g. Dana Carvey & Adam Morrison). It would be easy to make an argument that some or all of the folks you mention have made a bigger impact on the state than these "natives".  However, I can defend the inclusion of these "natives" by the fact that they appear on several other lists of notable Montanans (outside Wikipedia) and so I feel their absense on this list would be notable.    Deejayk 04:50, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * People who vacation in Montana are not from Montana and thus don't belong on the list. Hyacinth 19:16, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep in mind that this is not necessarily a list of Montana natives. The rub is that several of the people listed by Pitamakan above are folks who I wouldn't necessarily consider as "vacationing" in Montana -- they may spend over half their time in the state.  I've spent some time looking around Wikipedia at similar pages, and haven't found much concensus as to who should be included in this type of list.  Some of the things I have found:
 * Individuals on this list are either native-born Arkansans or emigrants who have chosen Arkansas as their permanent home.
 * Listed below are celebrities that have called Hawai'i home during some significant part of their lives.
 * This is a list of people whose career was all or part in Illinois; people are not included if they left the state before beginning a career.
 * The following is a list of prominent people who were born in the U.S. state of Maine, live in Maine, or for whom Maine is a significant part of their identity
 * This is a list of notable persons who were born or spent important time in the state of Minnesota. Important or widely-recognized persons are listed in bold. Persons not born in Minnesota are marked with §.
 * My favorite of these approaches is the last (from Minnesota). Discuss...   Deejayk 20:49, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Redlinked names
Looking at this list again after a few months, I have to say I'm much less pleased with it now. It seems to primarily be an enumeration of obscure professional athletes, a great many of whom will likely never have their own Wikipedia articles, and some who have only a relatively minor connection to Montana. To bring a little balance to the list, I'd suggest one of two possibilities: either limit the list to people who already have Wikipedia articles (there's precedent for that elsewhere), or move the pro athletes into a list of their own. I'm not sure there'd be much support for this, but I thought I'd throw it out. Pitamakan 18:27, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Redundancy
There is a lot of redundancy in this article. There are two "Other" sections. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucas(CA) (talk • contribs) 02:19, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Montanans needing more research
While working on this trying to get it to FL status, I came across these issues:
 * Jason Beam (born March 18, 1973) dark art/fantasy art illustrator (from Great Falls) -- may not meet notability, needs better refs
 * Monte Dolack (born 1950) artist (raised in Great Falls, living in Missoula) -- needs an article
 * Allen Russell, born 1947 photographer lives in Livingston, Montana needs an article, this is NOT the Allen Russell that has an article already
 * Parks Reece (artist's website) (born January 1954) artist (lives in Livingston) -- needs an article
 * Mary Clearman Blew - writer, some good sources out there, needs an article
 * Deirdre McNamer (born 1951) novelist and professor (lives in Missoula) -- needs an article
 * Dennis Cross from whitefish or helena, need a decent ref
 * Earl Murray (August 25, 1950–May 10, 2003) writer (born in Great Falls) -- needs an article
 * Dan Muller (born October 11, 1889) "Artists of the American West" (born in Choteau Montana) -- needs a decent ref
 * Lamb and Lynx Gaede (born 1992) members of white nationalist folk group Prussian Blue (moved from California to Kalispell in mid-teens) -- need their own article not a redirect to their group
 * Bill Jones (born c.1942) professional poker player, took 17th place in the 2003 World Series of Poker Main Event (from Billings) --needs article
 * Gene Davis, 1976 Olympic bronze medalist at 136.5 pounds, (from Missoula) --needs article
 * Brandon Eggum, (born April 8, 1976), 2001 World Freestyle Championships silver medalist at 85 kg/187.25 pounds, (from Sidney, Montana) --needs article
 * Emmett Willson, 2004 Dan Hodge Trophy winner, (from Shepherd) --needs article
 * Deb Greenough (born 1963) 1993 PRCA World champion bareback bronc rider (from Red Lodge, nephew of Alice Greenough) --needs article
 * Ben Selzinck (born April 29, 1977) professional kayaker (lives in Bozeman) --needs article
 * Terry Casey, All-America center at North Dakota in 1965-66; member of U.S. team in 1967 world championships. Great Falls/Helena tournament named in his honor; hockey player (from Great Falls) --needs article
 * Loree Payne (born July 30, 1981) former University of Washington player and current assistant coach (born in Bozeman, grew up in Havre) --needs article
 * Lacey Jae (born August 24, University of Montana (born in Bozeman  --needs article
 * Ray Kuka (February 17, 1922–March 27, 1990) University of Notre Dame and New York Knicks (1948-1949) forward (from Havre) --needs article
 * Shannon Cate-Shweyen (born August 1970) All-American forward at U of M (1989-1992) (from Billings, currently living in Missoula) --needs article
 * Jean Turnage -- former chief justice, MSC --needs article
 * Bob Woolf (born c.1964) Phoenix Suns mascot (since 1988) (from Great Falls)-- needs an article, not a redirect
 * Archie J. Broadbent (born 1981) film director (from Helena) --needs article
 * Donald O. Johnston (born 1929) composer, music publisher and educator (has lived in Missoula since 1960) --needs article
 * Jeff Kober actor, 1953, Billings -- needs a decent ref
 * Brian V. McGovern (born May 18, 1974) U.S. Army broadcast journalist (from Billings)--needs article
 * Jim Starr (born February 21, 1962) né Jim Kalafat} starred as Laser on American Gladiators (from Great Falls) --needs article
 * Joshua Mark Thomas 1973, from MT, poss Proctor, interior designer and photog -- needs a decent ref
 * Ted Nichols, 1928–present, Born and raised in Missoula; Composer; music producer; music director at Hanna-Barbera -- needs a decent ref
 * Pumpkin Sky  talk  23:26, 24 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd prioritize Dolak. Montanabw (talk) 17:10, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Not clear on inclusion criteria
When I started to look at this list I came to the realization that the inclusion criteria was a bit vague and hard to apply. I have the following questions: 1) What does notable outside of Montana mean? Does it mean that a person has coverage by a reliable source published outside Montana?  Does it mean that the person is notable for something done outside Montana?  What if the person has been noted outside Montana for something done inside Montana.  2) born/raised or have lived for a significant period of time in Montana. Combine these three criteria with the above and you can see the confusion. Born is easy, raised is (I guess) living in Montana for some period of time until they were 21?, significant is much to vague to speculate (some % of their total life span). A 24 year old who lived 8 years in Montana spent 33% of their life in Montana. An 80 year old person who lived in Montana 8 year only spent 10% of their life in Montana. Signficiant is much too vague to act as valid inclusion criteria. 3) Does the person have to have a WP article to be included in the list? (i.e. no redlinks). If not, there are probably 100s of persons that could be added to the list.

I think the inclusion criteria need to be firmed up solidly before this list would ever be eligible for FA status. --Mike Cline (talk) 15:38, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. To answer some questions-yes for an FL it's best to have an article on WP, so no article=not on list. As for "outside Montana" that seems to have turned out to mean if they have an article on wiki, they're notable "outside Montana". The RS used doesn't have to come from outside MT. FYI, I didn't write the incluseion line, it was there when I started on this. I'm thinking of removing the line totally as if they have an article they're notable for wiki purposes. I've been using 1 year in MT or a significant event in MT for my inclusion purposes. If the list gets too big it's okay to break it down (A-L and M-Z for example, or by topic). Thoughts? Pumpkin Sky   talk  16:31, 30 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I would rewrite the inclusion lead as follows: This is a list of notable Montanans who were born or raised in Montana, or who reside in or were Montana residents for at least XX years, or individuals who participated in a notable event in Montana history.


 * On the talk page, we can make it abundantly clear that only individuals with WP articles (notable) get included in the list. Also, we can insure that all entries include a Montana place of birth or residence.--Mike Cline (talk) 17:23, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * If you start with "this is a list..." the first ding at FLC will be to take it out because that it's a list is know by the title. "...who are notable" will get dinged too because they are defacto notable by being in the list and have a wiki article. We can otherwise work the lead though. If you see my tables you see they include the Montana connection. Yep, we should Ensure having an article is a requirement. Pumpkin Sky  talk  17:48, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I've changed the statement in the article and put a big tag at the top of the talk page. Thoughts? Pumpkin Sky  talk  20:09, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I cut this from the article, deciding it's better just on the talk page. I haven't seen anything like this in the article on another FL. Pumpkin Sky   talk  12:37, 31 July 2011 (UTC)


 * My take is definitely no redlinks. If they can't meet WP:NOTABILITY, which is a threshold so low you can barely trip over it, then no sense adding people here that someone can't be bothered to create an article.  At List of horse breeds, which is not FL but I've maintained it for years, we have a policy of "write the article THEN add the link."  Next, are there ANY state or national (maybe other countries?) "lists of famous people" that are FL that we can use/plagiarize as a guide?  That's always my favorite approach (grin).  Third, I don't think a set number of years for inclusion will be very workable, but we DO need some standard -- Remington no way deserves to be on this list, IMHO (he visited maybe once as a tourist??), but someone could have, in theory, done their most remarkable work during a short residency.  Illogically, I would support David Lynch being on the list, even though I think he left as an infant.   Finally, people only notable in Montana have existing WP articles, such as a whole pile of state legislators.  We could wind up with thousands of people on this list just with SP articles already, you know...  These are just my thoughts.  No moral declarations contained within.  Montanabw (talk) 18:49, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

About the lead
Right now the article doesn't have a lead that complies with WP:FL? Specifically: ''2.Lead. It has an engaging lead that introduces the subject and defines the scope and inclusion criteria.''

Although the lead I wrote above may not be the best, it does comply with both the FL criteria and WP:Lead (although List of may not be appropriate). I randomly looked at a few featured lists: List of birds of California for example has a clear lead that leaves no doubt about inclusion criteria.--Mike Cline (talk) 15:53, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, feel free to take a stab at it. Is there a FL that you like that is of people (from whatever college or whatever) that is a good example? Pumpkin Sky   talk  16:03, 31 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Seems adequate for now. I'd finish off the list and criterion and tweak the lead last.  Montanabw (talk) 18:49, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Formatting
We should decide whether will want a bulleted list format or table format. Using both is confusing and will cause it to fail FA. I much favor the bulleted list as it is easier to edit. The Athletes section is a good standard to follow. All entries should have the same format. All entries should have the same (birth-death) format and each entry should be clear on the period of residence in Montana. --Mike Cline (talk) 17:23, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It has both because I'm in the middle of this. I started making them tables because all the recent FLs are tables, at least that I saw. Tables make format and appearance much more consistent too. I really think we should stick with tables. Pumpkin Sky   talk  17:44, 30 July 2011 (UTC)


 * IF we have to for FL, I guess we have to, but personally I hate the charts, they are hard to add new stuff to due to the formatting, but that's just me and because I'm lazy. The only time they make sense is when you have photos attached to most entries (like List of United States federal courthouses in Montana).  I like the sections with simple lists and ref tags after each would work fine with me.  (I do think all links have to have refs for FL, don't they??).  Montanabw (talk) 18:49, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Sections
A couple of new sections need to be added--Pioneers (individuals involved in developing the state pre 1900), Environmentalists, Naturalists, etc. (goes beyond Scientists) are a couple that come to mind. --Mike Cline (talk) 17:23, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * That's fine. But if we put a photo(s) with the table, the photos can't extend below the list, that's a no-no at FLC. Pumpkin Sky  talk  17:44, 30 July 2011 (UTC)


 * More on sections - After working through many of the new names to be added to the list, I think you should add (or modify) sections as follows:
 * Pioneers (pre 1900)
 * Native Americans
 * Politicians (with sub-sections for Senators, Congressmen, Governors) - separate out military into its own section. Because there are already Lists of Senators, Congressmen and Governors of Montana, they can be linked in this section and none of the individuals need be listed.
 * Military
 * Business people - need to added as many subsections as necessary here such as Architects, Mining, Forestry, High Technology, etc.
 * Environmental advocates
 * Academics - separate from Writers or Authors - includes more than professors
 * Authors - is better than writers
 * Recreationalists - Here you can add all the sports individuals that are not Athletes

-- Mike Cline (talk) 15:28, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Good ideas. I'd like to finish what's on the page already and then see where we're at in terms of how many people are in each section, ok? Pumpkin Sky   talk  15:31, 31 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd agree with getting the list created and then figuring out categories, unless there is some sort of standard formate endorsed by WP United States or somthing. I sort of hate dozens of subsections on principle, but also some people aren't simply one thing.   However, in the above list, I'm having a few "ick" reactions.  I am particularly concerned about creating racial/ethnic categories: "Native Americans" is one.  Sort of like "famous black/hispanic/gay/Catholic/women" people.  For example, James Welch:  author or Indian?  Chief Joseph was a statesman and a diplomat, Sitting Bull's time in Montana was mostly as a political/spiritual leader and medicine man, while Crazy Horse was a war chief.  Sort of an insult to classify these people primarily by their race.   I'd say keep five or six broad categories, with a few of the big ones, like artists or sports figures, split into subcats.  That said, I do support splitting out the politicians from the military  -- but what DO we do with those who were both (say, at the national level, President/General Eisenhower, who was significant as both...)??  Montanabw (talk) 18:49, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Names to add
Compiling a list of additional names to be added in the appropriate section. --Mike Cline (talk) 19:10, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Names added or not required in the list
Lots more to add, but I am tired. --Mike Cline (talk) 20:01, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Kirk Scrafford in athletes list
 * Gary Neibauer in athletes list
 * Denny Rehberg in U.S. Representatives list
 * Mike Zadick in athletes list
 * B. Platt Carpenter in Governor's list
 * Joe McIntosh in athletes list
 * Dave McNally in athletes list
 * Henry L. Myers in U.S. senators list
 * Tom Stout in U.S. Representatives list
 * Lane Larson in Montana Senate list
 * Monica Lindeen in state representatives list
 * Stan Lynde in artists list
 * Calvin Gibbs just a redirect to an unrelated article
 * Brad Holland in athletes list
 * Will James (artist) in artists list
 * Dwan Edwards in Football list
 * John Dahl in entertainers list
 * David Quammen in authors list
 * Dane Fletcher in football list
 * Scott Sales in Montana representatives list
 * Stanley Anderson in entertainers list
 * Bryce Bennett in Montana Representatives list
 * James Franklin Battin in Montana legislature list and U.S. representative list
 * Leslie Spalding in athletes list
 * Kendall Van Dyk in Montana Senate list
 * Susan Wicklund in entrepenuers
 * Bill Yellowtail in Montana Senate list, in Politicans list
 * Ryan Zinke born in Bozeman, lives in Whitefish, in Montana Senate list
 * Andrea Leeds in entertainers list
 * Arnold Olsen in list of U.S. representatives
 * Burton K. Wheeler already in politicians
 * Dorothy Bradley in U.S. Representatives list
 * Zales Ecton in U.S. Senators list
 * Caldwell Edwards in U.S. Representatives list
 * Charles S. Hartman in U.S. Representatives list
 * James E. Murray in U.S. Senator list
 * Joseph P. Monaghan in congressional list
 * Robert C. Lautman added to photographers
 * Keith Jardine in athletes list
 * Ella J. Knowles Haskell in politician list
 * Steve Gallus in state senators list
 * Henry Frank in state legislators list
 * Tim Hauck in football list
 * Scott Brow in baseball list
 * Colt Anderson in athletes list
 * Rudy Autio in artists list
 * Jon Sonju in state senate list
 * Bruce Tutvedt in state senate list
 * Chas Vincent in state senate list
 * Harry Yount no tangible Montana connection
 * Robert Burns Smith in Governor's list
 * Susan Wicklund added to Entrepenuers
 * Jim Harrison added to authors
 * Joseph Kinsey Howard added to authors
 * Stephen E. Ambrose added to Academics
 * Fred F. Willson in Architects
 * Samuel T. Hauser in Governor's list
 * Conrad Anker added to recreationalists
 * John Bozeman added to pioneers
 * K. Ross Toole in Academics
 * Colin Meloy in list
 * Maile Meloy in list
 * Mike McLeod (American football) in list
 * Pablo Elvira in musicians
 * Travis Dorsch in football
 * Milt Popovich in football
 * Bob O'Billovich in football list
 * Jack McAuliffe (American football) in list
 * Barbara Ehrenreich in authors
 * Martha Raye in entertainers
 * Jim Sweeney (coach) added to football
 * Don G. Despain in scientists
 * Elizabeth Clare Prophet in clergy
 * Sidney Runyan Thomas in pols
 * Lester S. Willson in pioneers
 * Bud Luckey in artists
 * Dana Carvey in list
 * Dan Flores in list
 * David Lynch
 * Norman Maclean in list
 * Dennis Washington in entrepeneurs
 * Reagan Wilson in adults
 * Morgan Earp added to pioneers
 * Calamity Jane added to pioneers
 * James Willard Schultz added to Authors
 * Fred F. Willson added to Architects
 * Lester S. Willson added to Pioneers
 * George F. Grant added to recreationalists
 * Dan Bailey added to recreationalists
 * Tim Cahill (writer) in Authors
 * Malcolm Knowles added to Academics
 * Fred Brinkman added to architects
 * William Cumming (artist) added to Artists
 * John E. Erickson (Montana politician) in Montana Governor's list
 * Alexander King Sample added to clergy
 * Jenna Jameson
 * Frank B. Wynn added to Recreationalists
 * Thomas D. Brock not added, no apparent Montana connection
 * Harry W. Child added to entrepenuers
 * Hiram M. Chittenden added to military
 * Don G. Despain added to scientists
 * Gustavus Cheyney Doane added to military
 * Truman C. Everts added to pioneers
 * Frank Jay Haynes added to photographers
 * John F. Yancey added to Entrepenuers
 * Nathaniel P. Langford added to Pioneers
 * Herbert Maier no apparent Montana connection
 * John W. Meldrum No Montana connection
 * Philetus Norris No Montana connection
 * William F. Raynolds added to Military
 * Robert Reamer -- added to Architects
 * Henry Washburn added to Pioneers
 * Conrad Kohrs added to pioneers
 * Benjamin F. Potts in Montana Governor's list
 * Thomas Francis Meagher in Montana Governor's List
 * Evel Knievel In list
 * Robbie Knievel in list
 * Levi Leipheimer in list
 * Judy Martz Governor, presumably in politicans list
 * Nelson Story
 * Alice Greenough Orr
 * Peter Voulkos
 * Les Rohr
 * Tera Patrick
 * Pat Donovan (American football)
 * Pierre-Jean De Smet
 * George Bird Grinnell added to Scientists
 * William Henry Jackson added to Photographers

Names to add
As we work through these, some may already be in the list, so will just ignore them and remove them from this list as they are discovered in the main list.--Mike Cline (talk) 14:57, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Laurie Niemi needs to be added to football list
 * Warren Angus Ferris
 * Don Hummel
 * Mary Oppen
 * Shad Petosky need to add to Authors list
 * Rick Dennison need to add to Football list
 * John Banovich need to add to artists list
 * Bob Betley - golfer add to athletes list
 * Rosemarie Bowe - born in Butte, add to entertainers list
 * Patricia Briggs - born in Butte, add to authors list
 * John Francis Buckley born in Butte, add to politician list
 * George Burton (actor) born in Butte, add to entertainers list
 * Kathryn Card born in Butte, add to entertainers list
 * Christine Clark born in Butte, add to athletes list
 * Mick Dennehy born in Butte, add to athletes list
 * Julian Eltinge tentative connection to Butte, add to entertainers list
 * Kirby Grant born in Butte, add to entertainers list
 * Rusty Greer only Montana connection is that he play for the Butte minor league team, add to athletes?
 * Sam Jankovich, Butte native, add to Athletes list
 * Mark Jenkins (actor) born in Butte, add to entertainers list
 * Helmi Juvonen born in Butte, add to artists list
 * Robert Kelleher born in Butte, add to politicians list
 * Frank Little (unionist) Butte activist, add to politician list
 * Paul B. Lowney born in Butte, add to authors list
 * Sonny Lubick born in Butte, add to football list
 * Betty MacDonald tentative connection to Butte, add to authors list?
 * Mary MacLane strong Butte connection, add to authors list
 * Sam Moffet lived and died in Butte, add to baseball list
 * Brian Morris (judge), born in Butte, add to Judges list
 * Pat Ogrin born in Butte, add to Football list
 * Erin Popovich born in Butte, add to athletes
 * Bernard Ramm born in Butte, add to Clergy
 * Fritzi Ridgeway born in Butte, add to entertainers
 * William Rockefeller owner of mines in Butte, add to businessmen ??
 * Jim Rotondi born in Butte, add to entertainers
 * John D. Ryan (mining) lived in Butte, Banker in Butte, add to Businessmen
 * Montana Taylor born in Butte, add to Entertainers
 * Jack Weyland born in Butte, add to academics or authors
 * Griff Williams born in Butte, add to artists
 * Kathlyn Williams born in Butte, add to entertainers
 * Les AuCoin lives in Bozeman, add to politician list
 * John Baden lives in Bozeman?, founder of environmental group, add to politicians
 * Richard Barlow lives in Bozeman?, add to Other list
 * John Bohlinger, born in Bozeman, add to Politician list
 * Will Brooke lives in Bozeman, add to Politician list
 * John E. Buck lives in Bozeman, add to artists
 * Jean Cione lived and died in Bozeman, add to athletes list
 * Steve Daines lives in Bozeman, add to Businessman or Politicians
 * Daniella Deutscher born in Bozeman, add to entertainers
 * Diana L. Eck born in Bozeman, add to Academics
 * Patrick Hemingway, lives in Bozeman, add to businessman
 * Jim Huffman, born in Fort Benton, raised in Bozeman, add to Academics
 * Landon Jones lives in Bozeman??, add to authors
 * Stan Jones (politician), lives in Bozeman add to politicians
 * Dale W. Jorgenson, born in Bozeman, add to academics
 * Donna Kelley born in Havre, lives in Bozeman, add to entertainers
 * Cody Kempt, born in Bozeman, add to Football list
 * Vanessa Kerry lived in Bozeman ??, add to politicians
 * Jane Lawrence born in Bozeman, add to entertainers list
 * Ben Mikaelsen lives in Bozeman, add to authors
 * Phil Olsen lives and runs business in Bozeman, add to athletes
 * Billie Orr lives in Bozeman, add to academics
 * Kenneth R. Powell lived in Bozeman, add to military
 * Daniel Smith (artist) lives in Bozeman, add to artists list
 * Brittany Wiser born in Bozeman, add to others
 * Tracy Velazquez lives in Bozeman, add to politicians list
 * Julia Thorne tentative Bozeman connection, add to other??
 * Bernard Joseph Topel born in Bozeman, add to clergy
 * Gary Albright lived in Billings, add to athletes
 * Phil Amato tentative connection to Billings, add to entertainers
 * Carolin Babcock born in Billings, add to athletes
 * Jim Battin born in Billings, add to politicians list
 * Katie Blair born in in Billings, add to other
 * Ed Breding born in Billings, add to athletes
 * Kurt Burris lived and died in Billings, add to athletes
 * Mike Burton (swimmer) coached in Billings, add to athletes
 * Brady Canfield, born in Red Lodge?, add to athletes
 * Ruben Castillo (boxer) born in Billings ?? (note conflict with Infobox data), add to athletes
 * Annie Duke tentative connection to Billings, add to Poker Players?
 * Bob Enevoldsen born in Billings, add to Entertainers list
 * Joshua Frank born in Billings, add to authors
 * Brad Fregger born in Billings, add to entrepenuers
 * John Morse Haydon born in Billings, add to politicians
 * Ethel Hays born in Billings, add to authors
 * Terry C. Johnston lived in Billings, add to authors
 * Dick Jones (Wyoming politician) born and lived in Billings, add to politicians
 * Wesley Kimler, born in Billings, add to artists
 * Amanda Kimmel, born in Billings, add to entertainers
 * Brent Musburger, lived in Billings and Big Timber, add to journalists, was in "other entertainers", moved to journalists
 * Jeff Kober born in Billings, add to entertainers
 * Wally Kurth born in Billings, add to entertainers
 * Pete Lazetich born in Billings, add to Football list
 * John Letasky born in Billings, add to Journalists
 * Lil Miss murder
 * Wayne Lo lived in Billings, add to Infamous list (murderer)
 * Helen Lynch born in Billings, add to entertainers
 * Chase McBride
 * Clark Martell born in Billings, add to Infamous
 * Ray Metcalfe born on Crow Reservation, add to politicians
 * Ryan Minch born in in Billings, add to Journalists
 * Hana Pestle lived in Billings, add to entertainers
 * Chan Romero born in Billings, add to entertainers
 * Rick Rydell lived in Billings, add to journalists (talk show host), authors, or entertainers
 * Auggie Smith lived in Billings, add to entertainers list

temporary section for ipad editing

 * Burt L. Talcott born in Billings, add to politicians
 * Edward Walker (politician) in Montana State senate list
 * Charles F. Watkins lived and worked in Billings, add to Physicians
 * Jack Weyland
 * Matt Winer
 * Keith Wortman
 * Valeen Tippetts Avery
 * Joe Balyeat
 * Jason Beam
 * Alexander (Zander) Blewett, III
 * Anders Blewett
 * Walter Breuning in others
 * Mal Bross
 * James R. Browning
 * Dorothy Coburn
 * Lin Sue Cooney
 * Walter Coy
 * Brian Coyle
 * Scott Davis (figure skater)
 * P. Cameron DeVore
 * Dave Dickenson
 * David B. Dunn
 * Patrick Dwyer (ice hockey)
 * Cory Fong
 * John Gibbons in athletes
 * Paris Gibson in senators
 * Missy Gold
 * Melony G. Griffith
 * Malcolm Hancock
 * Charles S. Hartman
 * Paul G. Hatfield
 * Kris Heppner
 * Bern Herbolsheimer
 * Lester Hogan
 * Coby Karl
 * Pert Kelton
 * Mathias Clement Lenihan
 * Barbara Luddy
 * Howard Lyman
 * Linda McDonald
 * Leonard McEwan
 * Einar Axel Malmstrom
 * Gerald R. Molen
 * Matt Morrison (sportscaster)
 * Thomas Joseph Murphy
 * Dallas Neil
 * Andrew Nelson
 * Tom Neville (guard)
 * Victoria Paris
 * John Misha Petkevich
 * Charles Nelson Pray
 * Merle Greene Robertson
 * Charles Marion Russell
 * Corey Stapleton
 * Haila Stoddard
 * Al Ullman
 * Steve Vick
 * Anna Lee Waldo
 * Michael William Warfel
 * John Warner (judge)
 * Reggie Watts
 * Brett Weldele
 * Josephine Airey
 * Tony Alamo
 * James Presley Ball
 * Max Baucus
 * Samuel Beall
 * Patricia Belcher
 * Dirk Benedict
 * Brand Blanshard
 * Seth Bullock
 * John Patrick Carroll
 * Thomas H. Carter
 * Lane Chandler
 * William H. Clagett
 * Walter A. Coslet
 * Richard D Cotter
 * Dennis Cross
 * Fulham Davies
 * Charles Donnelly (railroad)
 * John E. Erickson (Montana politician)
 * Tom Facey
 * Rebecca Ferratti
 * George Joseph Finnigan
 * Howard Freeman
 * Russell Benjamin Harrison
 * Ralph Leo Hayes
 * Rick Hill
 * Norman Holter
 * Charles Antone Horsky
 * Esther Howard
 * L. Ron Hubbard
 * Llew Jones
 * Thomas Lee Judge
 * Christine Kaufmann (Montana politician)
 * Nicolette Larson
 * James F. Lloyd
 * Blaine McElmurry
 * Tony Markellis
 * Dave Meier
 * Al Melvin (politician)
 * Bobby Petrino
 * Herb Plews
 * Ernest W. Retzlaff
 * Henry H. Schwartz
 * Leo Seltzer
 * David Sirota
 * George G. Symes
 * Dink Templeton
 * Joseph Toole
 * Mike Van Diest
 * Thomas Van Scoy
 * Decius Wade
 * Thomas J. Walsh
 * John Patrick Williams
 * Tom Wilson (actor)
 * Charles E. Abramson
 * Steve Albini
 * Pokey Allen
 * Courtney Babcock
 * Dorothy Baker
 * Bryce Bennett
 * David Berkoff
 * Frank Bessac
 * Aaron Betsky
 * Judy Blunt
 * Bill Bowers
 * Steve Bullock (Montana)
 * James Lee Burke
 * Scott Michael Campbell
 * James Crumley
 * Edna Wilma Simons
 * Troy Evans (actor)
 * Jesse Tyler Ferguson
 * Leslie Fiedler
 * Tye Fields
 * Mayhew Foster
 * John Friesz
 * Keir Graff
 * Hank Green
 * Harry Haines
 * James C. Hammond
 * Leonard Hammond
 * Bobby Hauck
 * Frank G. Higgins
 * Deane R. Hinton
 * Galen Hollenbaugh
 * Leroy Hood
 * Herbert Inch
 * Dave Johnson (athlete)
 * Bill Kelly (quarterback)
 * Daniel Kemmis
 * Steve Kragthorpe
 * Jason Lamy-Chappuis
 * Mike Lewis (basketball)
 * Jason Lutes
 * Washington J. McCormick
 * Neil McMahon
 * Richard Manning
 * David Maslanka
 * Frank W. Milburn
 * Tommy Moe
 * John M. Morin
 * Roger Nichols (songwriter)
 * Ted Nichols
 * Diane Sands
 * Lloyd Schermer
 * Richard G. Shoup
 * Michael Smuin
 * Clarence Streit
 * Kenneth Dupee Swan
 * George Turman
 * Ernest Veuve
 * Ronald W. Walker
 * David Wanzenried
 * Bryan Thao Worra
 * Hubert Zemke
 * William Henry Blackmore
 * John Frank Stevens
 * James J. Hill
 * John W. Barlow

Criteria for Native Americans
What should the criteria for Native Americans be on this list? There are at least a dozen articles on Native Americans that were involved in Montana history. Many of them died and are buried in the state. If they fought in a major Montana battle do they get included? What about U.S. Army soldiers that fought in Montana?--Mike Cline (talk) 20:01, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that depends on how we define "Montana"--only after the territory was formed by white people or anyone who lived/etc at anytime within the modern borders of Montana. I'm open to ideas here of course. If the list gets too big we can break it up by topic like List of Medal of Honor recipients (with sub lists by war), or List of United States Naval Academy alumni; in this USNA list set, every single list is a FL and the whole set is a featured topic. Pumpkin Sky   talk  20:14, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Here are the relevant dates:
 * Montana Territory: May 28, 1864, until November 8, 1889
 * State of Montana: November 8, 1889 to Present
 * Most if not all the Native American and U.S. Army involvement with relevant WP articles occured within these two periods --Mike Cline (talk) 21:24, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Then those wouldn't be a problem either way. I'm even okay with including those from prior to that period. I think the criteria for "what warrants a separate list" is 15 or so entries. I was looking at the USNA main list and when there's a sublist they list 5 sample entries on the main list with a link to the sub list. Pumpkin Sky   talk  21:30, 30 July 2011 (UTC)


 * See my assorted comments in other sections. I say classify people by what they did, not by what race they are.  I'd suppose a catchall "other famous Native Americans" category might be OK for someone you can't place anywhere in particular, but I can't think of anyone offhand who could not be classified as a political leader, military figure, explorer, artist, etc... I don't like the feel of a segregated section.   We can note in each entry if the person was Nez Perce, Sioux, Cheyenne, etc... designation by nation is what the actual people in Montana today seem to universally prefer over being called "Native American." (A term which some hate, by the way, even preferring "Indian" or capital N "Native" )  I'd define "Montana" broadly as "anyone who meets the criteria of inclusion at any point in history within the boundaries of what today is Montana." I mean, if Piltdown Man was here, he'd fit!  LOL!   Unlike Idaho Territory or Dakota Territory, "Montana" has been "Montana" since its first territorial designation, so no problem of much confusion in that regard.  Montanabw (talk) 18:57, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Native Americans warranting inclusion

 * Chief Joseph, primarily for the Nez Perce War of 1877
 * Chief White Bird, same as Joseph
 * Chief Looking Glass, same as Joseph
 * Sitting Bull, for Battle of Little Bighorn
 * Wooden Leg, Little Bighorn
 * Little Wolf, Little Bighorn, born in Montana
 * Carl Venne, Crow Agency leader
 * Edison Real Bird, Crow Agency leader -- needs decent ref and article more than 2 lines
 * Denise Juneau
 * Bill Yellowtail


 * Lacking the time to review the list, note my comments above. To add more, is Denise Juneau to be listed as a politician or an Indian? Ditto Bill Yellowtail?  More complex characters would include Jean Turnage -- Chief Justice of the Montana Supreme Court or part-Indian?  Montanabw (talk) 18:58, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm going to go with Montanabw's post just above this subsection and put them in a section per what they're noted for. After all, we haven't separated any other group out by ethnic group. By tomorrow I should have all 10 listed above entered to the main list. Pumpkin Sky   talk  00:20, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

125 Montana Newsmakers
These people are in the Great Falls Tribune's list of "125 Montana Newsmakers" and don't currently have an article. The number after their name indicates which part of the list they're in. Here is the home page of the list.
 * Dr. Rosannah Russell - 1
 * Esther Vance - 1
 * Daniel McKay (bricklayer) - 1
 * Preston B. Moss - 1 (cf Moss Mansion)
 * Shorty Young - 1
 * William Logan (Glacier Park) - 1
 * Olaf Carl Seltzer - 1
 * Robert Cooley (scientist) - 1
 * Frank Conley - 1
 * H. Earl Clack - 1
 * Arthur L. Stone - 1
 * F. A. Buttrey - 1
 * Thomas Campbell (wheat farmer) - 2
 * Lou Boedecker - 2
 * James D. Graham (union leader) - 2
 * Maggie Smith Hathaway - 2
 * Louis Allard - 2
 * Dan Morrison (quarry owner) - 2
 * Lloyd Sweet - 2
 * Sister Providencia Tolan - 2
 * Joe Cosley - 2
 * Charles "Red Flag" Taylor - 2
 * Oliver Warden - 3
 * Mary Desrosier - 3
 * Sonny Holland - 3
 * Jean Wrobel - 3
 * Dave Drum - 3
 * Don and Dan Nichols - 3 abductors of Kari Swenson
 * Ira Perkins - 3
 * Brother Van - 3
 * George Prentice (ski) and Ed Schenck - 3
 * Mel Ruder - 3
 * The Boveys - 3
 * Ian B. Davidson - 4
 * Dan Cushman - 4
 * Francis Bardanouve - 4
 * Granville Stuart - 4
 * Ronald Losee - 4
 * Leo C. Graybill -4
 * William "Bud" Moore - 4
 * David Rivenes and Ella Rivenes - 4
 * John Craighead (bears) and Frank Craighead - 4
 * Tom Kenneally - 4
 * Eric Newhouse - 5
 * John Joseph Greytak - 5
 * Mike Malone (historian) - 5
 * George Dennison (academic) - 5
 * Mildred Walker - 6
 * Parker Rutledge - 6
 * William F. Cogswell (doctor) - 6


 * Pumpkin Sky  talk  23:23, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Reference column
We might want to consider eliminating the Reference column from the table and just add the inline after the comments. I think it will provide a cleaner appearance and will certainly remove a lot of whitespace which the 4th column takes up. Looking at number of FLs, this would be a plus from the FL criteria side. --Mike Cline (talk) 14:57, 1 August 2011 (UTC)


 * OK with me.  Montanabw (talk) 18:49, 1 August 2011 (UTC)


 * PSky, you want to weigh in on this? --Mike Cline (talk) 12:28, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I've seen FLs with the refs in other spots than a separate a column and I think they usually look tacky and the refs are hard to find. I think the separate column makes it nice and neat and easy to find. I think the white space argument is a red herring as pretty much everyone has a wide screen monitor nowadays. But to find a happy medium, i've changed the header from "References" to "Refs". What do you all think? Pumpkin Sky   talk  20:30, 5 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, I hate the charts from the get-go because it's really hard for me and my laptop and my eyes and the small print to edit, so no help here. I'll just do whatever everyone else decides, because what I really prefer is a normal list with a normal footnote at the end of the line (all said with a smile, I dont' really care).    Montanabw (talk) 23:15, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Porn queens?
Must we really have the "adult entertainers" section? Can't we just quietly put these people under "actors" or something? And at the very least, must they be FIRST on that section? =:-O   Montanabw (talk) 16:44, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I did the sequence alphabetically. As for their own section, that was already there. As for moving them under the general section, I'm open to talk. Pumpkin Sky   talk  17:49, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd favor merging them in with actors. I mean, it IS "film" I guess. I kind of hate to see that sort of stuff split out and highlighted.  (I'd kind of wish is wasn't there at all, but oh well, WP:NOTCENSORED)   I mean, I don't think much of that sort as "actors" either, but then, there's an argument to be made that, oh, for example, Patrick Duffy or Dirk Benedict can't act their way out of a paper bag, so who am I to judge quality?  (grin).   Montanabw (talk) 20:13, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * From what I can figure out, the rule of thumb is 5 or more warrants a separate section, and they are wiki-notable. So using those guidelines, they warrant their own section. I can't stand Steve Martin - he sucks - but he'd surely be on any list of US comedians. ;-) Pumpkin Sky   talk  20:37, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Adult Entertainers works better tham puting them in a porn actors section of actors as some are just playboy playmates who have not made porn films. Entertainers described the various adult work better.87.114.0.43 (talk) 22:24, 4 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, but rule of 5 is probably meant to be broken. And think of what a mess we'd have if we applied it too literally -- say if we split out "authors" (I still like "Writers" better, FYI), into nonfiction writers, novelists, poets, essayists, growly curmudgeons, blah, blah, blah.  Seems o me that  at the very least, let's put them as a subsection of actors, it's really almost WP:UNDUE to have them first under the heading, you'd think Montana was the sunset strip or something!   Montanabw (talk) 22:23, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I have no problem putting them btwn actors and directors. Pumpkin Sky   talk  22:38, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Hollywood on the Yellowstone, etc.

 * 1) How many of the vacation home owners do we want to add and by what criterion? I put in a couple that I know to be more permanent in MT than anywhere else, but what about the others?  I am specifically thinking of the following who seem to like their part-time Montana identity:  Michael Keaton (who crashed the Bozeman Obama rally, annoying everyone there), Huey Lewis (who shut down Sleeping Child Hot Springs to make it into his own club and tried--but failed-- to do the same with the Mitchell Slough), Brooke Shields (I think still has a home south of Big Timber), Tom Brokaw (owns ranch), David Letterman (owns ranch, talks about it a lot on his show, brought Willie Nelson to Augusta for a concert, so he's popular there), etc.   Montanabw (talk) 20:27, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * 2) On other stuff, I'd put Kemmis as a political figure more than a writer...though he hasn't been in office for a long time, he's essentially a policy wonk. And what DO we do with L. Ron Hubbard?  Writer, religious figure, or cult leader???   Montanabw (talk) 20:27, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There's Peter Fonda too, I'd include him. Brokaw too. Kemmis I can see moving. If they just occassionally visit or stay a few months a year, eh prob not, but otherwise yes. Didn't John Wayne have a home near Bozeman, and some of the silent movie stars? Anyone born or lived in MT for at least a year or attended college for a continusous year or more I'd definitely say can be included. the part time residents, we'd need to get a consensus on. Pumpkin Sky  talk  20:43, 4 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Fonda's already on. When I lived in Bozeman in the 70s, it was a recreational activity to see how often he appeared in the police blotter with yet another speeding ticket.   We also have to check on Dennis Quaid.  He used to hang out with that Paradise Valley bunch a lot.  I don't hear about John Wayne up here, though, just like I have issues with Frederic Remington being on the list because he visited a couple of times.   I think an example of where to draw the line might be Robert Redford, a definite NO, even though he's filmed movies here and been around a lot.  Or, Jimmy Carter, who's been known to sneak up here a lot to go fishing.  But NOT on the list.  (So has Sandra Day O'Connor, actually). This is mostly your project, I'll let you make the call (I also hate editing the stuff that's been put into chart format!)  The BIG film stars of the silver screen age were Myrna Loy and Gary Cooper.  You may want to dig up this book: Movie Stars & Rattlesnakes: The Heyday of Montana Live Television  Montanabw (talk) 22:31, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Good points. I almost didn't put Remington in. I'll take him out. Will think on the rest. Pumpkin Sky   talk  22:37, 4 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd say that Browkaw and Letterman help us define where the line goes, as both have ranches up here and spend a lot of time up here (source for Letterman, Source for Browkaw), And if it counts, my uncle-in-law's nephew's wife actually once helped Letterman load a 50-lb sack of dog food into his SUV in Choteau, so he really does actually spend SOME time there!  (grin)   Montanabw (talk) 18:02, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm going to add Quaid, Brokaw, and Letterman, but for the other Hollywood/etc types, I'll wait til someone says "so and so should be listed". I've move Kemmis and removed Remington. More food for thought Pumpkin Sky   talk  14:40, 7 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd say it's all about refs. That particular article was 1994 (I split as a resident in 1988, beat the stampede out of there prior to the invasion), so I guess my thinking is looking for actual evidence of residency, as opposed to small business investment and a vacation cabin.  I don't know where precisely to draw the line, but some evidence that they didn't just fly in on a jet, hide out at The Stock Farm or the Yellowstone Club, then fly away again having no need to interact with the unwashed locals (after all, most of them DO wash) would be useful.  this site has a long list,  but does ownership constitute "being from" Montana?  For example, Letterman self-identifies as a part-time Montanan, Huey Lewis has sued to protect his little paradise, and I was there when Keaton crashed the rally (I was also there when Huey tried to crash a Bob Dylan concert in Missoula and jam with the band, but Bobby D only deigned to permit him to jam with the opening act. Was a good LOL), but on the other hand, I can't find much at all on, say, Whoopi actually living here.  She seems to have no interviews where she mentions being here, no one other than a few real estate promoters seem to mention her being here, etc.  I suppose it's all about finding a ref that connects them to actually BEING here. (i.e. Whoopi may be on the "not" side of the line??)  Does that work??  Montanabw (talk) 21:48, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Two column refs
I knew this would come up. Do we have to use two column refs? Pumpkin Sky  talk  20:42, 4 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Don't think it's a "have to," but everyone keeps going through all the articles I work on and adds it. I do find it makes it easier for me to review footnotes, not a moral issue, though.    Montanabw (talk) 22:33, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Fiction?
Man, I really don't think we want the "fictional Montanans " in at all. Mike and I have been trying desperately to keep trivia out of a couple of articles because once this starts, you'd be amazed how many characters come out of the woodwork. I'll go with the consensus, but this is a BIG can of worms to open, IMHO (Zephram Cochrane, anyone???)  Montanabw (talk) 17:44, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * My inclination is to create a SAL Fictional Montanans if so desired and the link in a see also section in this article. --Mike Cline (talk) 18:27, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * SAL??? what's that? I've seen fictional characters in other lists and it's not a big deal. Pumpkin Sky  talk  20:22, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You have NO IDEA how bad this can get, I mean Billy Ray Cyrus' character on some dumb sitcom (not Hannah Montana, and ouch, there's another one) was supposedly a Doctor from Montana (except with a bad deep south accent).  This could grow to  hundreds once we start getting serious about the B westerns and such...   Montanabw (talk) 23:09, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, but still, what's a SAL? Pumpkin Sky   talk  23:22, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * DUnno the acronym, but I presume a separate list??  Montanabw (talk) 21:33, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * We can do the same thing we did with the football list. Pumpkin Sky   talk  22:02, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Reamer and Remington
I just deleted Frederic Remington because we felt his connection was not strong enough, ie, he "just visited". But Reamer has been added. Is Reamer's connection any stronger than Remington's? Did he actually live in MT? This fits right along with our talks trying to define our inclusion criteria. Pumpkin Sky  talk  20:45, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

List of people from Montana (gridiron football)
This is the first section big enough and ready to make a sub list so I've created it, leaving 5 entries in the main list. I've also nom'd it at WP:FLC. Pumpkin Sky  talk  02:35, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Good job. I would take the prose text from the 2nd para of the football list and place it under the section heading in the main list.  I would not list the 5 entries.  (What is the criteria to be part of the five?)  People will continue to add names if it remains a list. --Mike Cline (talk) 19:55, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I just chose five of the more interesting ones. I think if we only leave the link to the sub list it'll leave people wondering and not clicking. This way they get an inkling to whet their appetite. I've seen other lists done like this. I think people adding to the list of 5 in the main list won't be such a big deal, let's see how it goes, is that okay? I till wonder about the narratives at the top of the sections. I simply don't know myself. I'm going to ask someone very knowledgeable about lists. Pumpkin Sky   talk  20:04, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
 * (copied post from User talk:Killervogel5)...:See the related List of people from Montana and look at the military, pioneers, and recreationalists sections. Mike Cline thinks we working on the Montana lists should have these narratives in each section. To me that has the danger of making them more articles. see one of the related threads wherein we've talked about this at Talk:List_of_people_from_Montana. He thinks we should move the football article 2nd para to the main article. I simply don't know about this point myself. How much narrative at the top of a section would be considered "too" much? With the goal of making an informative main list that could also become a FL, how should this be done? I'd also appreciate one of your good thorough reviews of the football article that is at FLC right now. Tks. I am copying this to the list talk page linked above. Pls respond there so we can all read it there. Tks. Pumpkin Sky  talk  20:14, 6 August 2011 (UTC)...PS...what about sections with 1-2 people only? Should they be merged into a section with5 or more people? Pumpkin Sky   talk  20:22, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
 * In the sections where the lists have been split out to sub-articles, you must have prose (see WP:SPLIT; "If a section is split from the original article, a summary section should be left in the original ("main") article. At the top of the section, it should contain a link to the newly created page, easily achieved with Main template."). It does not have to be as long as the lead of the split list, but it should cover the main points of the topic that was split out.
 * As to "narratives" in each section, I wouldn't see a problem with that, as long as they aren't too long (3-4 sentences for each average-size table; 1-2 introductory sentences for smaller tables). This ensures that the lead will not become too stuffed with information that could be broken out elsewhere. A couple of prose sentences here and there will not turn this from list to article until the narratives start to become bloated and oversized. &mdash; KV5  •  Talk  •  10:57, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Very helpful. Many thanks. What about sections with only 1-3 people? Can they stand alone or should they be merged to a bigger one? Pumpkin Sky  talk  11:20, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Because they are sections within a larger list, they are fine as is. &mdash; KV5  •  Talk  •  11:29, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Much appreciated. Very kind of you for your help. Pumpkin Sky   talk  12:30, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Montana State Legislators
There are 200+ articles on Montana State Legislators in Category:Members of the Montana State Legislature but there is no List of these articles. I will eventually create a list so that all these names do not have to appear in the main list. We'll reference the legislator list in the main list.--Mike Cline (talk) 13:14, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm all for lists redirecting to other lists, this one is already a little out of control. As for the Lege, 150 members, reelected every 2 to 4 hears (House or Senate) this could have thousands of people in it, not sure how WP:NOTABILITY treats folks at this level, ditto for mayors, city council members, etc... thoughts??   Montanabw (talk) 16:36, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, I for one am not going to be creating any new articles, just listing those that already exist.--Mike Cline (talk) 17:51, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Legislators definitely should be their own list. The only way to make this one smaller is 1) remove people in it and/or not add any more 2) create sublists like I did with the football guys. When doing that leave a "main" link and soem sample entries. A main list of nothing but main links would be really boring. As we move more to sub lists, this one will get smaller. I'd say anything with over 15 entries warrants a sublist. I'll gladly make any needed sublists and run them through FLC, giving credit to both of you too. Then when that's done we can have a featured topic. I want the lists to be high quality, informative, and interesting. Together we can make this happen. Pumpkin Sky  talk  21:04, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't be the first list of lists on WP. I fear that a "main" link with sample entries is an edit war invitation (why one person and not another?) Don't worry about crediting me here, I'm just being a gadfly and pointing out things that bug me.   Montanabw (talk) 22:24, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you're worrying too much. WP:MT has too few people to edit war ;-). But seriously there are other lists with links to a main sublist but also with sample entries listed. Also not one one has edit the 'fictional' section you were worrying about. Pumpkin Sky  talk  22:43, 17 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Lets wait until we get all the Names to Add dealt with and we can see who we can cherry pick into the main list. Still lots of names to add and vet.  That should be our focus.  On the road in Pittsburgh till Friday evening, but back in Montana over the weekend.  Happy editing. --Mike Cline (talk) 23:17, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Sublists
As the main list was (with football) 200K+ with 290refs+, I split off entertainers and athletes to sub lists (adding the football list into the athletes list). This will be all around much better. Consequently I've withdrawn the football FLC as that now redirects to the athletes list. We may or may not need to make more sublists. Pumpkin Sky  talk  03:37, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I noticed that I didn't find Judith Blegen any more, but wonder if she should be listed as an "entertainer". But then, I found her name in four of these: List of The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson episodes (1977), entertainer after all? - I don't think a link to music really helps, how about a link to the particular sublist "Musicians" of the sublist instead, for example? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:53, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * She's in List_of_entertainers_from_Montana under "Musicians". I'm not sure I follow you. You want her listed as one of the sample 5 (currently 4, I usually put 5) entertainers on the main list, which has a link to the sublist? Pumpkin Sky   talk  23:08, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * No, I was too tired when I squeezed too many things in one remark. Trying to sort it out:
 * I would not expect any opera singer under "entertainers", therefore suggest to explain right next to that main article that it also includes - you name it, and not exactly "of the entertainment industry", a little broader would help (me).
 * It would help me further if - instead of being taken to music in general - I could land precisely where the musicians are by a link like music.
 * In the article of Judith Blegen, the Johnny Carson appearances should show, but I'm not the one to word that.
 * Do you follow? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:35, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I think so. The full title is "entertainers and performing arts" and I'd certainly include opera in both of those as opera is both a form of entertainment and a performing art. I have expanded the preexisting explanation to include "classical music, rock music, and opera." See my previous two edits. My next edit will be to tweak this to go to the music section of the list. I'll work on the Blegen article too tonight. Pumpkin Sky  talk  23:30, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Refs for Blegen being on the Carson show aren't the best. Have you found a good ref that lists all her Carson show appearances? Pumpkin Sky   talk  23:38, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Not one, but she appears in four of those lists on WP (What links here, 77, 78, 79, 80), not my topic, I don't know how those lists are sourced. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:16, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Journalists section
Working through the names to add, I have come to the conclusion that a Journalist section is needed. We've been lumping them into entertainers (but many of them are not [entertaining]). I think it is a suitable section, so any names tagged for entertainers that are actually journalists should go in this section. --Mike Cline (talk) 19:23, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, I note there appears to be no article for Norma Ashby, the goddess of KRTV and host for decades of Today in Montana. I don't have the time to create the article, but someone really,really must. (Pumpkin???)  Montanabw (talk) 22:50, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * A journalists section is fine by me. I've already moved Chet Huntley to it. As for an article, it can be on our collective todo lists. Pumpkin Sky   talk  22:53, 18 August 2011 (UTC)


 * This brings me back to Tom Brokaw. In or out??  Montanabw (talk) 17:12, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * OK with me. Pumpkin Sky   talk  20:46, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

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External links modified
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I have just modified 11 external links on List of people from Montana. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110812163324/http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/mca_toc/1_1_5.htm to http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/mca_toc/1_1_5.htm
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 * Added archive https://archive.is/20130105165811/http://www.wildlifeartjournal.com/articles/wildlife-art-journal-premium-content/summer-2011/179/to-find-russell-chatham-look-homeward.html to http://www.wildlifeartjournal.com/articles/wildlife-art-journal-premium-content/summer-2011/179/to-find-russell-chatham-look-homeward.html
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External links modified
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I have just modified 4 external links on List of people from Montana. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120327024548/http://knowledgecenter.unr.edu/libraries/support/writers_hof/james.html to http://knowledgecenter.unr.edu/libraries/support/writers_hof/james.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110629075107/http://www.sfsu.edu/~sfsumag/archive/fall_08/alumni2.html to http://www.sfsu.edu/~sfsumag/archive/fall_08/alumni2.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120615172157/http://communities.aia.org/sites/hdoaa/wiki/American%20Architects%20Directories/1956%20American%20Architects%20Directory/Bowker_1956_B.pdf to http://communities.aia.org/sites/hdoaa/wiki/American%20Architects%20Directories/1956%20American%20Architects%20Directory/Bowker_1956_B.pdf
 * Added tag to http://www.classicimages.com/articles/2011/06/24/past_articles/parkerjean.txt
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111013195805/http://dalymansion.org/history/mrdaly.aspx to http://dalymansion.org/history/mrdaly.aspx

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