Talk:List of people known as the Great/Archive 2

Mongol and Chinese monarchs
Why are figures like Timur, Qin Shi Huang, Kangxi Emperor, and Genghis Khan on this list? I have scoured the internet to the best of my abilities to find any sources that refer to them as such, even in their native languages (i.e. Mongolian: Агуу, or Chinese: 大帝). I may just be overlooking something, but if anyone does have any sources that they would like to share, it would be greatly appreciated if you were to list them under Sources. Please feel free to comment beneath if there is anything you'd like to share.

Table Format
The table would be more useful if the time of ruling was a separate column. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.125.220.224 (talk) 22:49, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

"Magnanimous"
Could we put in the list people known as "the Magnanimous"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.27.47.227 (talk) 07:37, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * We now have List of people known as the Magnanimous. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:05, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Theodore Rossevelt?
Theodore Roosevelt the Great? I have NEVER heard of him referred to as 'the great'..A google search for turns up no instances of him being called "the great" except a paper for students to plagiariz "theodore roosevelt the great environmentalist". I'm removing this.--Notenderwiggin (talk) 17:32, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Akbar
Should we note that the name Akbar itself means great (though it's an elative, better translated as greater or greatest)? --Xyzzyva (talk) 22:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Genghis Khan
I've removed Genghis Khan from the list, as I've never seen a single source refer to him as "Genghis Khan the Great". This may stem from the fact that Genghis Khan was "Khagan" of the Mongol Empire, which is often rendered "Great Khan" but is in reference to his superiority over other Khans. The meaning of the word Genghis is also under debate, but the two dominant theories do not include "the Great" or "great" as a meaning. siafu (talk) 01:56, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Apocryphal "Greats"
I'm noticing after being led here by the edit to Genghis Khan that there are several "greats" in the list that don't seem to have any support for their being labelled "the great". The second member of the list, in fact, is listed here as "Ahmad the Great", but the article on him does not mention this moniker at all, instead referencing "Ahmad Shah Baba", or "Ahmad Shah, the Father". I'm going to go through the list and root out the ones for which there is not (or not yet) any evidence. siafu (talk) 02:03, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Pacal
I removed "Pacal the Great" from this list (and associated template), as the use of this epithet for this particular Palenque ruler is only a recent, informal and occasional innovation, applied by some 20thC scholars&mdash;mostly when writing for a popular audience&mdash;as a rough descriptor and a convenient shorthand way to disambiguate from several other Maya personages that had Pakal as (part of) their name. It can not really be said that he was termed as such during his lifetime or by his successors; the K'inich term in his full and proper name may be translated as "great sun-faced [lord]", but he's not the only one to have incorporated this into his name upon accession to rulership and in any case grammatically it functions as part of his name, not a title or descriptor. Sure, he reigned for an impressive and unusually long period, and was commemorated in inscriptions as a "5-k'atun lord"; but to put things into perspective the polity of Palenque he ruled was only one of 40-50 or more in the Classic period Maya central lowlands and in territorial terms took in probably no more than the surrounding land within a day's walk. Also don't think this is how he is 'most usually' known, it's only really in the writings of Schele et al. for a general audience that this was coined. Otherwise, he's referred to by his full and proper name which has by now been confidently deciphered &mdash; K'inich Janaab' Pakal. Have been meaning for a while now to move his article to his actual name, and not this informal approximation.

Also, not really sure about the usefulness of this 'people known as 'The Great' article, or how it can be other than some arbitrary selection. Known by whom, by how many, and when...? What if called 'the Great' by one faction, but deprecated by another? Any requirement for them to have reigned over a decent-sized territory/populace, or would any micro-principality do? etc, etc. Seems ill-defined, to me. --cjllw ʘ  TALK 04:12, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If this list stays, Pakal should be on it. It includes many rulers whose title is an artifact of modern historiography and not contemporary usage.  The title is used in Martin & Grube and reflects a popular name for this Ajaw, if not his most correct or common one.  Eluchil404 (talk) 21:06, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Confusion between "Great" and "Great King"
The Persian kings did not call themselves "the Great". They called themselves "Great Kings", which is one inseparable expression. There are certainly no documents where Cyrus claims that he was personally "Great" - if he should be included, so should all of his successors.

The same goes for the Seleucid kings: Antiochus III was ironically known as "the Great" by the Romans who defeated him - what he did was in fact to explicitly assume the title Great King, though there are cuneiform where his predecessors, due to their sway over Persia, had also done so. It was hardly a personal surname.

This page lists people who are known to posterity as "Great", but perhaps we should add when this was not a contemporary epithet? The first person, to my knowledge, to hold that epithet during his lifetime was Pompey, who was indeed given the title Magnus by the senate.Sponsianus (talk) 14:57, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Removal of sections
To seek to avoid the charge that is easily levied at this article of being an indiscriminate collection of information, I have removed two large and uncited sections. As it stood the article was hugely vulnerable if proposed for deletion. Even now the lack of citations makes it highly vulnerable.

Serious thought needs to be given to making "every entry a cited entry" to seek to ensure that it is deemed worthy to stay. It may be "interesting", but is it "encyclopaedic"? Fiddle Faddle (talk) 21:22, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

listing criteria
What is the criteria for being listed? Obviously those commonly rendered as "the Great" in English, but what about others? Since these people exist as names in other languages than English... some of those would possibly be rendered as "Great" as well, but some of those terms need not be rendered as "Great" at all... 76.66.193.90 (talk) 06:54, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Article title
The article's focus appears to be rulers - monarchs and such. Presumably we don't want to have people like The Great Gatsby or The Great Waldo Pepper. I suggest therefore that the article be moved to List of rulers known as The Great. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Culling
Just voicing my support for Fram's culling of entries whose articles don't mention "the Great". OhNo itsJamie Talk 22:08, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Napoleon the Great
Regarding this edit, the editor is incorrect with regards to Napoleon. If you look at Google Books alone, you will find him referred to as "the Great" in literally hundreds of books. Such famous men as Victor Hugo even referred to him as the great and I even have a medallion from the 1830s that says, "A Napoleon le Grand" on it. Documents in his lifetime such as that of the Sanhedrin also refer to him as "Napoleon the Great". I also cited the one source that calls him as such in the title, but again, you can find well over a hundred published books that explicitly call him "the Great". Similarly, you can also find numerous published books that refer to Elizabeth I as the Great as well: and  are just some of many examples. Sure, they might not be as typically referred to as such in the same way as an Alexander the Great, but all the same I reckon you can find more published books in diverse languages that specifically say "Napoleon the Great" compared to the several of the other unsourced names on that list. Finally, yes, Cleopatra is also referred to as "the Great" in a good number of published books, such as and. If more of these need to be provided as sources, okay, but among academics and authors these three people are indeed referred to as "the Great" in works across multiple languages and across many years even going back in the case of Napoleon to his own lifetime (again, I have examined both documents and medals calling him as much). I have messaged him on his talk page hoping he will reconsider his edit. Thank you for your time and consideration! --24.112.187.219 (talk) 21:43, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

No We don’t do that He was great but he was never called great or the great Big difference! Tee wew28 (talk) 22:28, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 19 March 2017
List of people known as The Great → List of people known as the Great – In fact the most common style, as seen in its contents. Chicbyaccident (talk) 17:48, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I have moved the article and put "the Great" in quotes to reflect the lead. Laurdecl talk 13:09, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I have updated the move to the name requested to put the article in line with others in Category:Lists of people by epithet, and have made the appropriate copy edit to the lead. SilkTork (talk) 13:29, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Albert II, Duke of Mecklenburg
To be on this list, a person should have more than a passing mention in a genealogy as "der Grosse". Neither Albert II, Duke of Mecklenburg nor the German Wikipedia's [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albrecht_II._(Mecklenburg) Albrecht II. (Mecklenburg)] cite his greatness, and his accomplishments, such as they are, do not show that he has earned such a designation. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:23, 26 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Copied from my [Clarityfiend] talk page:

The IP user was right about Albert II Von Mecklenburg... https://books.google.com/books?id=mohTAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA183&dq=albrecht+II+der+große+Mecklenburg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj396fK8NDpAhVBcq0KHX5aBvoQ6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=albrecht%20II%20der%20große%20Mecklenburg&f=false Mecklenburg98 (talk) 06:18, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Huh? Just what am I supposed to see in that book? And if the IP was right, how come Albert II, Duke of Mecklenburg makes no mention of his "Great"ness? Clarityfiend (talk) 06:23, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Look up Albrecht II "der Große" Herzog von Mecklenburg or simple Albrecht II der grosse Von Mecklenburg Most German Sources, and old literature doesn't refer to him without adding in "The Great"...The issue is, finding a google books source were the information is accessible, and not in preview mode...My issue, is...Which do i source, considering the Title is tied to his name in most places,including the state? Part of this problem is I can't use my Antique books that haven't been printed in over a century, as a source, since they aren't especially publicly accessible. Here are some links, though https://www.google.com/books/edition/Handbuch_der_deutschen_Geschichte_Bd_Von/4XWCAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Albrecht+II+der+grosse+Von+Mecklenburg&pg=PA501&printsec=frontcover https://www.google.com/books/edition/Zum_Leben_Albrechts_III_dem_K%C3%B6nig_von_S/JSbOg3O5SCEC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Albrecht+II+der+grosse+Von+Mecklenburg&pg=PA2&printsec=frontcover https://www.geni.com/people/Albert-II-duke-of-Mecklenburg-Schwerin/6000000003858754511 https://data.cerl.org/thesaurus/cnp01454371 https://books.google.com/books?id=f_V3DwAAQBAJ&pg=PT123&lpg=PT123&dq=Albrecht+II+der+Gro%C3%9Fe+Herzog+von+Mecklenburg&source=bl&ots=rcDyamTv_C&sig=ACfU3U0TEm4D2G9CHsa3YjXIW9tu15AbhA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiT2eWJreDpAhVSRKwKHR2DBWQQ6AEwBnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Albrecht%20II%20der%20Gro%C3%9Fe%20Herzog%20von%20Mecklenburg&f=false http://www.royaltombs.dk/mecklenburg.html http://www.solhellingadata.no/Rune/Slekt/html/fam/fam04937.html https://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atlas/regents/germany/mecklenburg.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mecklenburg98 (talk • contribs) 10:13, 1 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Observation: This "der Grosse" thing seems to be bandied about for people whose accomplishments don't seem all that great, e.g. Albert I, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:23, 2 June 2020 (UTC)