Talk:List of pre-modern Arab scientists and scholars

New Additions
What do you think of Abdul Qadir Gilani, Ibn Faradi, Al-Farghani, Ibn Furak? MWahaiibii (talk) 06:15, 20 December 2018 (UTC)


 * , Encyclopedia of Islam states that Abdul Qadir Gilani was "a Persian from Nayf, south of the Caspian sea", therefore that scholar cannot be included in this list. Ibn Faradi on the other hand was an Arab according to Encyclopedia of Islam, you can add him to this list. Al-Farghani's ethnicity is disputed, he has been described as being an Arab or a Persian, so you can add him to the list, he's already in the Iranian list. As far as i can see, Ibn Furak's ethnicity is not known, he's described as being an As̲h̲ʿarite theologian and traditionist by encyclopedia of Islam, but his ethnic background is not mentioned. As a conclusion, i would say that you can add Ibn Faradi and Al-Farghani. And i'll remove Fakhr al-Din al-Razi who was an Iranian. Best regards. ---Wikaviani  (talk) (contribs)  15:16, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Fakhr al din al-Razi in his wikipage is mentioned as from Arab immigrants, but i dont know how accurate this is. MWahaiibii (talk) 15:51, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
 * He was of Arab origin, but the lead of the article lists him as Iranian, and this is sourced. ---Wikaviani  (talk) (contribs)  21:42, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the help and the neutrality, Next on the list are: Again, Thanks for taking time to help. MWahaiibii (talk) 13:16, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Ibn Hindu, Encyclopedia of Islam Three
 * Al-Maziri
 * Al-Lakhmi
 * Al-Shatibi
 * Al-Hattab
 * Ibn Daqiq al-'Id
 * Abu Bakr Ibn Sayyid al-Nās
 * Ibrahim an-Nazzam
 * Abd Allah al-Qaysi
 * Al-Humaydī


 * Ibn Hindu was Persian, but the others were probably all Arab, so i think their inclusion is legit. Cheers. ---Wikaviani  (talk) (contribs)  02:05, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Can you provide sources for Al-Lakhmi, Al-Maziri, Al-Shatibi, Ibn Daqiq al-'Id, and Ibrahim an-Nazzam?
 * I removed Ibn Faradi; he's considered to be Andalusian by the latest entry of Encyclopedia of Islam, not Arab. The Arab claim was based on early 20th century sources (i.e. non-WP:RS). - LouisAragon (talk) 17:27, 23 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Regarding Ibn Faradi, being described as Andalusian doesn't necessarily mean he was not an Arab. In most of the sources if not all, his nisba was Azd. Other than that in Philip K. Hitti, History of Arabs he mentions Ibn Faradi under the "Arabs in Europe: Spain and Sicily" chapter. And i couldn't find sources which contradicts the Arab claim.
 * For Al-Lakhmi, again his nisba is Lakhmi and Rab'i which is also an Arab tribal nisba. He was mentioned as a descendant of both tribes in the "Tabsirah of al-Lakhmi" p9, written in Arabic. No contradiction of sources on his ethnicity.
 * Al-Maziri. Sources affiliate him to Banu Tamim an Arab tribe. For instance, Kitab Wafayat Ala'yan.
 * Al-Shatibi. On his nisba Lakhmi and this.
 * Ibn Daqiq al-'Id, he is from the Arab tribe of Banu Qushayr as his nisba indicates.
 * For Ibrahim al-Nazzam, he is mention as an Arab scholar in New Arabian Studies, Volume 4 - MWahaiibii (talk) 12:13, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

WP:OR
Are there any reliable secondary sources for the inclusion of: (there are other scholars to discuss, but let's just start with these)
 * Averroes
 * Alam al-Din al-Hanafi
 * Abdelwahid al-Marrakushi
 * Abu al-Abbas al-Azafi
 * Abu al-Abbas as-Sabti
 * Al-Azraqi
 * Al Achsasi al Mouakket
 * Ibn 'Asakir
 * Al-Daraqutni
 * Fatima al-Batayahiyyah
 * Abu Hilal al-Askari
 * Al-Ḥajjāj ibn Yūsuf ibn Maṭar
 * Ali ibn Abu Bakr al-Haythami
 * Al-Ḫaṣṣāf
 * Al-Hattab
 * Ibn Abi'l-Hadid
 * Ibn al‐Ha'im al‐Ishbili
 * Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani
 * Ibn Hajar al-Haytami
 * Ikhwan al-Safa
 * Ishaq al-Israili
 * Khwaja al-Ansari
 * Ibn Kathir
 * Mujir al-Din
 * Muhyi al-Dīn al-Maghribī
 * Mohammed al-Mahdi al-Fasi
 * Mohammed al-Arbi al-Fasi
 * Mohammed ibn Qasim al-Tamimi
 * Mohammed ibn Rushayd
 * Mohammed ibn Nasir
 * Muhammad Al-Muqaddasi
 * Al-Mursi
 * Ibn Abi al-Shukr
 * Al-Tahawi
 * Yusuf al-Fasi
 * Zaynab al-Kindī
 * Al-Zahrawi
 * Al-Zuhri
 * Don't use (Andalusian/Maghrebi/Iraqi/Syrian/Egyptian => Arab) arguments and don't use (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence) arguments. It's not how wikipedia works. Using their nisbas to conclude their origins is also WP:OR ( there is something called mawlas ).
 * (ping, , , your input is welcomed) -TheseusHeLl (talk) 00:06, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much for opening this section and listing the above people. Soon, i'm gonna take a look at them and see if reliable sources exist about their ethnicity (whatever it is). Cheers. ---Wikaviani  (talk) (contribs)  00:14, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * So far, Averroes and Alam al-Din al-Hanafi should be left out of the list, the first is mainly described as Andalusian while the latter is mainly described as Egyptian. ---Wikaviani  (talk) (contribs)  21:32, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think 3 days is enough to find sources for 40 scholar, give us some time. -MWahaiibii (talk) 00:54, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

So, here are the sources i found regarding the ethnicity of these scholars in the past few days:
 * Abdelwahid al-Marrakushi:
 * -al-Marrakushi, Abdelwahid. Al-'Arian, Mohamed Said (ed.). "al-Mu'jab fi Talkhis Akhbar al-Maghreb" (in Arabic). Maṭbaʻat al-Istiqāmah. p. 8. tr. "His name is Abdelwahid ibn Ali, came from Tamim,..."
 * -Al-Aʻlām (in Arabic) by Khayr al-Din al-Zirikli. p. 176. tr. "Al-Marrakeshi was from an Arab family,..."


 * Abu al-Abbas al-Azafi:
 * -Rabita Mohammedia Des Oulemas (in Arabic) by Dr.Jamal Al-Qadim. tr. "His origin - according to prominent accounts - goes back to Banu Lakhm from the Arabs of Yemen"
 * -Manaqib al-Awliya' al-Musama al-Risalah al-Mansuriah (in Arabic), by Safi al-Din, Abdelmo'min. Al-Mazidi, Ahmed Farid. (ed.) tr. "The nisba Azafi came from a ancestor of his known as Ibn Abi Azfa, from Banu Lakhm,..."


 * Abu al-Abbas as-Sabti:
 * -Rabita Mohammedia Des Oulemas (in Arabic). by Dr.Tariq Al-Alami. tr. "Abu al-Abbas Ahmad bin Ja`far al-Khazraji al-Sabti, the city's largest guardian and most famous of the seven men, of Arab origin,..."


 * Al-Azraqi:
 * -Ruwad 'Ilim al-Jughrafiah fi al-Hadarah al-Arabiah al-Islamihah (in Arabic) by Al-Defaa, Ali bin Abdullah. p. 65. tr. "Known as Al-Azraqi due to his grandfather Al-Azraq Abi Uqba who is from Banu Ghassan..."
 * -Akhbar Maka Wama Ja' Fiha min al-Athar (in Arabic) by Al-Azraqi. Abdul Malik bin Dahish (ed.). tr. "his nisba Al-Azraqi came from his grandfather Al-Azraq Abi Uqba, who is from Ghassan."


 * Ibn 'Asakir:
 * -Lebanon: A History, 600 - 2011 by William Harris. Published by Oxford University Press.
 * -Great Soviet Encyclopedia
 * - Islamic Empires: Fifteen Cities that Define a Civilization By Justin Marozzi.


 * Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani:
 * -Al-Jawaher wal Durar fi Tarjamat Sheikh al-Islam Ibn Hajar (in Arabic) by Al-Sakhawi. p. 103. tr. "And regarding his origins: I saw from my father's writing that he was of Kinani origin"


 * Ibn Hajar al-Haytami:
 * -Fath al-Jawad b'Sharh al-Irshad 'ala Matin al-Irshad (in Arabic) by Ibn Ḥajar al-Haytamī. Abdul Latif Hassan bin Abdul Rahman (ed.). p. 4. tr. "And the nisba al-Sa'di is to Banu Sa'd from the Arabs of the Sharkiya province(in Egypt)"
 * -"Ibn Ḥad̲j̲ar al-Haytamī" in Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition.


 * Khwaja al-Ansari:
 * -ʿABDALLĀH ANṢĀRĪ in Encyclopaedia Iranica. "Descending from a Companion of the Prophet".
 * -Abdullah Ansari of Herat (1006-1089 Ce): An Early Sufi Master by A. G. Ravan Farhadi. p. 4.


 * Ibn Kathir:
 * -Ibn Kathīr, ʿImād al-Dīn in Encyclopaedia of Islam, THREE.


 * Mujir al-Din:
 * -Mujīr al-Dīn al-ʿUlaymī's Vision of Jerusalem in the Ninth/Fifteenth Century by Donald P. Little. Vol. 115, No. 2 (Apr. - Jun., 1995), p. 238.


 * Mohammed al-Mahdi al-Fasi:
 * -Samt al-Jawhar al-Fakhir min Mafakhir al-Nabi al-'Awal wa al-Akhir (in Arabic) by Mohammed al-Mahdi. Dr.Raha'im, Su'ad (ed.). Published by Ministry of Awqaf and Islamic Affairs, Morocco.


 * Mohammed al-Arbi al-Fasi:
 * -al- Fāsī family in Encyclopaedia of Islam, THREE
 * -Mohammed al-Arbi al-Fasi is the son of Abu l-Mahasin Yusuf al-Fasi while ʿAbd al-Qādir b. ʿAlī b. Yūsuf al- Fāsī is his nephew.


 * Mohammed ibn Qasim al-Tamimi:
 * -Al-Mustafad fi Manaqib al-Ibad bi Madinat Fas wa Mayaliha min al-Bilad (in Arabic) by Mohammed ibn Qasim al-Tamimi. Dr.Mohammed Al-Sharif. p. 94. Abdelmalek Essaâdi University. tr. "His nisba indicates that he was an Arab from Banu Tamim that settled in al-Maghreb and al-Andalus and he might go back to the early Muslim conquests era."


 * Mohammed ibn Rushayd:
 * -Center for Studies, Research and Heritage Revival. Rabita Mohammedia Des Oulemas (in Arabic) by Dr. Tareq Tatami. tr. "And he was born and raised in a Fihrid family..."
 * -Al-Hafiz ibn Rushayd al-Sabti al-Fahri wa Johodeh fi Khidmat al-Sunn al-Nabawia (in Arabic) by Abdellatif bin Mohammed Al-Gilani. tr. "Ibn Rushayd is considered one of the prominent figures in a Fihrid family"


 * Mohammed ibn Nasir:
 * -Al-Rihla al-Nassiriya (in Arabic) by Mohammed ibn Nasir. Maluki, Abdul Hafeez. p. 20. tr. "His Father: Abu Abdullah Mohammed ibn Mohammed ibn Ahmed Ibn Mohammed ... ... ibn Abdullah ibn Ja'far ibn Abi Talib."
 * -Rabita Mohammadia Des Oulémas (in Arabic) by Dr.Jamal Bami. tr. "And the origin of his family is Arab, with a lineage that goes back to Ja'far ibn Abi Talib".


 * Muhammad Al-Muqaddasi:
 * -Encyclopaedia of the History of Science, Technology, and Medicine in Non-Western Cultures edited by Helaine Selin.
 * -Al-Maqdisī in Encyclopaedia Britannica.
 * -Muhammed Ibn Ahmad Al-Maqdisi Science and Its Times: Understanding the Social Significance of Scientific Discovery . . Encyclopedia.com. 24 Apr. 2020


 * Al-Mursi:
 * -Abu al-Abbas al-Mursi (Madhhabuh wa Ara'uh al-Sufiya) (min Aqtab al-Madrasa al-Shadhiliya) (in Arabic) by Dr.Magdy Mohamed Ibrahim. Dar Al Kotob Al Ilmiyah. p. 122. tr. "And al-Mursi is from a prestigious lineage of Arabity, his ancestor was Sa'd ibn Ubadah leader of the Ansar,..."
 * -Al-Aarif Billah Abu al-Abbas al-Mursi (in Arabic) by ʻAbd al-Ḥalīm Maḥmūd. Dar Al-Kitab Al-Arabi. tr. "His lineage (meaning al-Mursi) goes back to Sa'd ibn Ubadah"


 * Al-Tahawi:
 * -Al-Lubab fi Tahdhib al-Ansab (in Arabic) by Ali ibn al-Athir. p. 343. tr. "Al-Hajri - This is lineage goes to three tribes. The name of each one is Hajr, the first one is Hajr Himyar,... and others. The second one is Hajr Dhi Ru'yin,... . The third is Hajr al-Azd, who is Hajr ibn Imran ibn Amr ibn 'Aamir ibn Haritha, Abu Ja`far Ahmad Ibn Muhammad ibn Salama al-Tahawi al-Masry is a descendant of him."
 * -Taj al-Arus Min Jawahir al-Qamus (in Arabic) by Murtada al-Zabidi. p. 243. tr. "And from this lineage Hajr Al-Azd, which is the third - and it is Hajr ibn Imran ibn Amr Muzayqiya ibn Aamer, Ma' al-Sama', ibn Haritha ibn Umru' Al-Qais ibn Thalibah ibn Mazen ibn Al-Azd - : the great and distinguished Abdul-Ghani bin Saeed Al-Azdi Al-Masry and his family, and Imam Abu Jaafar Ahmed ibn Muhammad ibn Salama al-Tahawi."
 * -Al-'Alam (in Arabic) by Khayr al-Din al-Zirikli. p. 169. tr. "And Ahmed ibn Muhammad ibn Salama Al-Tahawi the theologian, considered from Hajr Al-Azd,..."


 * Yusuf al-Fasi: (Abū l-Maḥāsin Yūsuf al-Fāsī)
 * -al- Fāsī family Encyclopaedia of Islam, THREE.
 * -ʿAbd al-Qādir b. ʿAlī b. Yūsuf al- Fāsī grandson of Abū l-Maḥāsin Yūsuf al-Fāsī.


 * Al-Zahrawi:
 * - A Pharmaceutical View of Abulcasis Al-Zahrāwī in Moorish Spain: With Special ... by Sami Khalaf Hamarneh, Glenn Allen Sonnedecker. BRILL. p. 15.
 * - Al-Zahrawi and Arabian neurosurgery, 936–1013 AD Surgical Neurology Volume 26, Issue 1, July 1986, Pages 92-95.
 * - Abu Al-Qasim Az-Zahrawi (325-404AH/936-1013AD) International Journal of History and Cultural Studies (IJHCS) Volume 4, Issue 2, 2018, PP 25-36 Dr. Gassan Mahmud Washah of University of Gaza.
 * -Theoretical and Practical Book by Al-Zahrawi Retrieved from World Digital Library.


 * Al-Zuhri:
 * -The Historical Narrative Authored by Al-Zuhry in his Book Geography by Dr. Wassan Ibraheem Husain Mahmoud. Baghdad University. p. 694. tr. "Abu Abdullah Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr Al-Zuhri From the tribe of Banu Zahra ibn Kulab That camped around Mecca".

For the scholars below, i personally couldn't find any sources which talk about their ethnicity at all:
 * Alam al-Din al-Hanafi
 * Al Achsasi al Mouakket
 * Al-Daraqutni
 * Fatima al-Batayahiyyah
 * Abu Hilal al-Askari
 * Al-Ḥajjāj ibn Yūsuf ibn Maṭar
 * Ali ibn Abu Bakr al-Haythami
 * Al-Ḫaṣṣāf
 * Ibn Abi al-Shukr
 * Ibn Abi'l-Hadid
 * Ibn al‐Ha'im al‐Ishbili
 * Muhyi al-Dīn al-Maghribī
 * Zaynab al-Kindī
 * Al-Hattab

Regarding these entries:
 * Ishaq al-Israili
 * -Sources describe him as Jewish only


 * Averroes
 * His inclusion is being discussed but here are the sources:
 * 1-The Legend of the Middle Ages: Philosophical Explorations of Medieval Christianity, Judaism, and Islam by Rémi Brague. University of Chicago Press. p. 16.
 * 2-Ibn Rus̲h̲d Encyclopaedia of Islam, First Edition
 * 3-The Unity of Content and Form in Philosophical Writing: The Perils of Conformity by Jon Stewart, Jon Bartley Stewart. BLOOMSBURY. P. 9.
 * 4-Long Commentary on the De Anima of Aristotle by Richard C. Taylor. Yale University Press.
 * 5-TRAITÉ DÉCISIF, Averroès Fiche de lecture by François Trémolières


 * Ikhwan al-Safa
 * Why do you think Ikhwan al-Safa should not be included?
 * --MWahaiibii (talk) 19:06, 24 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your work MWahaiibii! Okay let's start now.
 * Abdelwahid al-Marrakushi:
 * The book is a primary source. The Preface you're using as a source is written by the egyptian writer Muḥammad Saʻīd ʻIryān. Good writer, YES. Historian, NO.
 * Primary source
 * Abu al-Abbas al-Azafi:
 * The website is unreliable as a source for historical biographies. It's essentialy full of aqida/shari'a scholars and quran scholars. Theologians are not reliable for a historical article.
 * WP:PRIMARY. The Banu Azafi's origins are unknown. The most recent theory is that they were of andalusian origins, "A gratuitous (but not wholly unreasonable) assumption of more recent date is that the family was of Andalusian origin."
 * Abu al-Abbas as-Sabti:
 * Unreliable website and the author is a sufi scholar not a historian.
 * Al-Azraqi:
 * Unreliable for this subject. Ali Abdullah Al-Daffa' is a mathematician and historian of science. He's not a historian of islamic history. According to The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition, "The ancestor of the family was a Byzantine (Rūmī) slave of Kalada or al-Ḥārith b. Kalada in al-Ṭāʾif, called al-Azraḳ on account of his blue eyes."
 * WP:Primary and the editor is عبد الملك بن دهيش. Editor, YES. Jurist, YES. Faqih, YES. Historian, NO.
 * Ibn 'Asakir:
 * This book (Lebanon: A History, 600 - 2011) is reliable for its purpose, the history of Lebanon. And Arab is not mentioned in the text, it's only mentioned in the INDEX.
 * This Encylopedia is reliable, but its use of Arab is inconsistent and tangential. The mamluk Ibn Tagriberdi is mentioned as an Arab scholar. The Berber Ibn Battuta is mentioned as an Arab traveler. The persian Ibn Khordadbeh is mentioned as an Arab geographer. So trying to use this source as an argument for the supposed Arab origin doesn't hold water.
 * Another unreliable source. Justin Marozzi is not a historian, he's a journalist (no phd in history).
 * Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani:
 * WP:Primary. Nothing is known about his origins. He didn't even know the origin of his family name, "He himself did not know the origin of his family name Ibn Ḥadjar. The nisba ʿAsḳalānī was considered by family tradition to go back to 587/1191, when Ṣalāḥ al-Dīn ordered ʿAsḳalān to be destroyed and its Muslim inhabitants resettled elsewhere.."
 * Ibn Hajar al-Haytami:
 * WP:Primary
 * This is a reliable source, you can use it in the main article.
 * Khwaja al-Ansari:
 * Reliable source. You can use it in the main article.
 * Reliable source.
 * Ibn Kathir:
 * This is a reliable source, you can use it in the main article.
 * Mujir al-Din:
 * This is a reliable source. Donald P. Little was a professor emeritus of Islamic History and Arabic Language. The paper goes in detail about his biography and works.
 * Mohammed al-Mahdi al-Fasi:
 * Another primary source! And the book was edited by Souad Rahaim, a religious scholar and member of the ulama council. Religious scholar, YES. Primary source, YES. Historian, NO.
 * Mohammed al-Arbi al-Fasi:
 * Reliable
 * Reliable
 * Mohammed ibn Qasim al-Tamimi:
 * WP:Primary but the editor (Mohamed Chérif) is a historian of al-andalus; therefore, the biography he gave about Al-Tamim's origins is reliable.
 * Mohammed ibn Rushayd:
 * د.طارق طاطمي is a Sīra al-Nabawiyya professsor. That's definitely an unreliable source.
 * Unreliable source. عبد اللطيف الجيلاني is a hadith scholar.
 * Mohammed ibn Nasir:
 * Using the nisba as a claim for his origins is WP:OR
 * ذ. جمال بامي is not the writer of the article. He's the the writer in the fifth reference ([5] مْحَمَّد بنَّاصر الدّرعي ، ميثاق الرابطة – ذ. جمال بامي). The writer of the article is يوسف الحزيمري, a 'aqida scholar with a doctorate in Ulum al-din. Definitely unreliable.
 * Muhammad Al-Muqaddasi:
 * Reliable, but a tangential mention of "Arab" in a source is not enough to support the Arab origins claim. The only known thing per Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition is, "His life, which is not well known, is only available to us through his own work. Very much attached to the Palestine of his birth and to the town whose name he bears (Muḳaddasī or Maḳdisī, from Jerusalem, al-Bayt al-Muḳaddas or Bayt al-Maḳdis), he probably belonged to a middle-class family. His paternal grandfather, Abu Bakr, an architect (banna'), has his claim to fame for having built, on the orders of Ibn Tulun, the maritime defences of Acre. His mother's family came originally from Biyar, a small town of Khurasan: the author's grandfather, Abu Tayyib al-Shawwa, being reasonably well off and himself also an expert in the art of construction, emigrated to Jerusalem"
 * Reliable, but a tangential mention of "Arab" in a source is not enough to support the arab origins claim.
 * Unreliable
 * Al-Mursi:
 * مجدى محمد ابراهيم has a phd in islamic philosophy. He's not a historian
 * Abdel-Halim Mahmoud is not a historian
 * Al-Tahawi:
 * So you're using the three primary sources in wikipedia arabic as evidence for his arab origin? There is a big diferrence between english wikipedia guidelines and arabic wikipedia guidelines. "All analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary or tertiary source, and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors."
 * Yusuf al-Fasi:
 * RELIABLE
 * RELIABLE
 * Al-Zahrawi:
 * Reliable (ping: hey, can you check this work's reliability?)
 * The paper is in Surgical Neurology it has nothing to do with islamic history (Nayef Al-Rodhan is a neuroscientist and John L.Fox is a Neurosurgeon)
 * Unreliable, ARC Journals is a predatory journal
 * The description of his manuscript is not a reliable source
 * Al-Zuhri:
 * The author speculates that "...was from the tribe of Bani Zahra ibn Kalab.." but per Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition, "Al-Zuhrī appears in no biographical work, but the few personal details that can be gleaned from his book show him to have been an Andalusi of the 6th/12th century, a contemporary of al-Idrisi, alive in 545/1150-1 and very knowledgeable about al-Andalus."

-TheseusHeLl (talk) 05:14, 25 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Hey, thank you very much for the job you made. The source you linked is reliable according to me (usually BRILL is), the topic is about Al-Zahrawi and Glenn Sonnedecker, one of the authors, is a historian of pharmacy :, . Best. ---Wikaviani  (talk) (contribs)  13:42, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * How is Al-Aʻlām by Khayr al-Din al-Zirikli a primary source? and neither is Murtada al-Zabidi, so in the three sources in wikipedia arabic article, only one is a primary source which is Ibn Athir.
 * And for Mohammed ibn Nasir, i didn't use his nisba for the claim, in the source his lineage is mentioned back to Ja'far ibn Abi Talib. -MWahaiibii (talk) 14:32, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, Justin Marozzi is a historian! Regarding al-Muqaddasi, i still think he should be included, there are no other sources as far as i know, which contradict the Arab ethnicity claim. -MWahaiibii (talk) 22:39, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey MWahaiibii, sorry for the late reply! Thanks for your patience. Yep, you're right, the two sources (Al-Aʻlām and Taj al-'arus) are not primary sources. But Al-Aʻlām doesn't mention the arab origin, it just mentions his nisba (concluding from the source that he was an arab is WP:OR). And taj al-'arus is just an Arabic-Arabic dicionary, definitly not a reliable source for the ethnicity of someone.
 * You used his claimed "ja'farid lineage" as an evidence for the arab origin, which is WP:OR. + the editor is not a historian (he holds a doctorate in arabic language and literature)
 * I think my points were clear. Justin Marozzi is not a historian, he's a journalist who writes about history. Having only a  bachelor's degree in hisotry doesn't make you a historian. Good writer, YES. Good journalist, YES. Historian, NO.
 * Regarding al-Muqaddasi, i still think he should be included, there are no other sources as far as i know, which contradict the Arab ethnicity claim. As I said there are no reliable secondary sources that mentions that he was of arab ethnicity. The only known thing about him is, EI2, "His life, which is not well known, is only available to us through his own work. Very much attached to the Palestine of his birth and to the town whose name he bears (Muḳaddasī or Maḳdisī, from Jerusalem, al-Bayt al-Muḳaddas or Bayt al-Maḳdis), he probably belonged to a middle-class family. His paternal grandfather, Abu Bakr, an architect (banna'), has his claim to fame for having built, on the orders of Ibn Tulun, the maritime defences of Acre. His mother's family came originally from Biyar, a small town of Khurasan: the author's grandfather, Abu Tayyib al-Shawwa, being reasonably well off and himself also an expert in the art of construction, emigrated to Jerusalem".IF the Arab claim was true it would be mentioned in detail in reliable secondary/tertiary (not just quick mentions in the format of Arab scientist/writer/XX). -TheseusHeLl (talk) 02:43, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Al-A'lam mentions that he is from Azd "And Ahmed ibn Muhammad ibn Salama Al-Tahawi the theologian, considered from Hajr Al-Azd,..." and im sure you atleast know that al-Azd is an Arab tribe, therefore he is an Arab. Arabic sources don't say the word "Arab" rather give his lineage, except for non-Arabs of course they will mention that he is a mawla or Ajami.
 * Same thing for the Ja'farid lineage, if the source were to say just "Arab" according to you it would be "tangential" but when the source instead gives his whole lineage, excursive?
 * First of all, El3 Ibn Muflih is not the same person as al-Muqaddasi! Secondly, If the source says he is an Arab even if its a quick mention of the word Arab, it means the author of this reliable source thinks the individual is an Arab. In the end, we are merely allowed to cite sources exactly as they are, and we are in no way required to analyze sources, i think you are the one committing WP:OR here. -MWahaiibii (talk) 15:54, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I was talking about al-a'lam part1 p:206, I didn't see part2 p:169. I don't now the reliability of al-a'lam. Arabic sources don't say the word "Arab" rather give his lineage this is just you pov.
 * if the source were to say just "Arab" according to you it would be "tangential" No If it's a reliable secondary source that gives a detailed mention of his origins (he was born in XX from the Arab XX, he was of Arab origins, ..born in an Arab family, etc) and not in the format "Arab writer/poet/scientist/XX". This format is used excessively and has no meaning whatsoever. You can see an example in Ibn Khaldun, you can't dispute his Arab origins because the majority of reliable sources (EI2, EI3..) gives a detailed mention of his family (Banu Khaldun), their life in seville, their Hadhramauti claims, etc. But if I did the sloppy work of searching "XX historian/sociologist" then I can push a Berber origin (Berber sociologist, famous Berber historian and political theorist, Berber historian, Berber historian). Do you see now the sloppiness in searching "someone XX*"? *XX = Arab/Berber/Kurdish/Persian/Syriac, etc
 * but when the source instead gives his whole lineage The source gives his lineage and it's WP:OR to conclude his origins from the source. It's not my problem that you can't find reliable secondary sources where the Arab origins are discussed explicitly.
 * My bad I mixed them. If the Arab origin is well-known, why it's not mentioned in EI2? Why do we need to type "Arab geographer" in google books and use tangential mentions of Arab? By using the same logic, the non-arab/greek Yaqut al-Hamawi is an Arab Geographer (Arab Geographer, Arab Geographer). Is he now an arab just because he was mentioned as an "Arab Geographer" in some sources? Were the authors of these reliable sources thinking the individual is an Arab? A detailed biography about his life is superior by all means, His life can be divided into two parts: (a) from 574 or 575 to 606; and (b) from 606 to his death. Life in the service of ʿAskar al-Ḥamawī. Yāḳūt was born in Byzantine territory of non-Arab parents, reduced to slavery still a very young child....
 * Now let's return to al-Muqaddasi why Lutz Richter-Bernburg in the Encyclopedia of Arabic Literature said that ""..was born in Jerusalem in the decade of 330/941 and died no earlier than 381/991. On both paternal and maternal sides was descended from families of master builders. He was a traveling merchant, and possibly an Ismaili missionary; he is renowned as a geographical author. exept for his own work....., no biographical source for him is extant."? If the Arab origin is a known fact why none of the sources that discussed his life/family/works talked about it? Why Moshe Gil in his book A History of Palestine, 634-1099, said, "....was undoubtedly the geographer Abu 'Abdallah Muhammad b. Abi Bakr Shams al-Din al-Maqdisi (in research literature it is customary to call him al-Muqaddasi, and he is known also by the nickname al-Bashari)......We have little information on his life, apart from what he himelf has told us in his book. He was the grandson of an architect-builder who was famous in his day. Abu Bakr al-Banna' (mentioned earlier in connection with the building of the port of Acre). His mother's family arrived in Jerusalem two generations earlier from Biyar, in the region of Qumis in Khurasan. Al-Muqaddasi was born in around 945- we know that in 966 he went on a pilgrimage to Mecca at about the age of twenty and that he died in around the year 1000."? Where is the Arab origin? So we should give more weight to some quick mentions of "Arab" than detailed biographical works? -TheseusHeLl (talk) 23:44, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * -"this is just you pov."
 * Go Ahead find me an Arabic source which regularly mentions the word "عربي" instead of mentioning his nisba and lineage.
 * -"This format is used excessively and has no meaning whatsoever"
 * According to who? So you are saying these reliable authors are careless when stating the ethnicity of the individual?
 * -"You can see an example in Ibn Khaldun"
 * The "quick-mention" of his ethnicity are reliable sources and should be mentioned, BUT the detailed reliable sources that goes into details about his ethnicity is of course more preferable. Also Ibn Khaldun ethnicity is disputed, so not the same case as al-Muqaddasi.
 * -"find reliable secondary sources where the Arab origins are discussed explicitly."
 * I think there is nothing more explicit than stating his lineage instead of just saying he is of Arab origin. Anyway, i found this source that i think is reliable Tarikh Ibn Yunus al-Safadi Before you say its primary source, i'm talking about the footnote written by the editor: Fathi Abdulfattah, historian and head of the Islamic History and Islamic civilization Department, Cairo University.
 * -"By using the same logic, the non-arab/greek Yaqut al-Hamawi is an Arab Geographer"
 * According to these reliable authors he is, and i don't think they were careless either, different historians/authors can have a different conclusion when researching a matter. But again a detailed explanation of his ethnicity is always more preferable.
 * -"Were the authors of these reliable sources thinking the individual is an Arab?"
 * Yes, they think he is an Arab, therefore they mentioned it, they would have gone for a "muslim geographer" if they thought he wasn't Arab.
 * -"A detailed biography about his life is superior by all means"
 * I do agree, but when the other source is silent about his ethnicity, the "quick-mention" ethnicity is enough.
 * -Regarding al-Muqaddasi, "why none of the sources that discussed his life/family/works talked about it?"
 * Because the authors didn't conclude an ethnicity after researching al-Muqaddasi, but the other reliable author, although didn't go in much details concluded that he is an Arab.
 * -"we should give more weight to some quick mentions of "Arab" than detailed biographical works?"
 * Again if the source that goes in details mentions his ethnicity then sure its preferred over the quick mention, but this source unfortunately does not go into his ethnicity details at all. So, the "quick-mention" should be mentioned. In the end, it is a reliable source in which the author believes that the individual is an Arab, and no sources found which contradict its claim. -MWahaiibii (talk) 21:29, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

So here are the scholars i would say should be back on the list: As i stated above, what you call a "quick-mention" is the basis of many scholars ethnicity claims, for example Al-Hallaj, Ibn al-Faqih, Abu Ma'shar, etc. And it has been the norm. So i think a "quick-mention" is reliable IF it does not contradict a detailed reliable source. What's your opinion? - MWahaiibii (talk) 02:14, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Ibn Hajar al-Haytami
 * Khwaja al-Ansari
 * Ibn Kathir
 * Mujir al-Din
 * Mohammed al-Mahdi al-Fasi
 * Mohammed al-Arbi al-Fasi
 * Mohammed ibn Qasim al-Tamimi
 * Mohammed ibn Nasir
 * Al-Muqaddasi
 * Al-Tahawi [1 ]
 * Yusuf al-Fasi
 * Al-Zahrawi


 * A passing mention in an expert source about a topic may be reliable, but a passing mention in a source that has nothing to do with the relevant topic is not considered as being reliable. ---Wikaviani  (talk) (contribs)  22:21, 10 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I absolutely agree with you. And that is what i observed from going through articles of scholars citing sources with a passing mention ethnicity claims, even though there were also many unreliable sources in some scholars articles (not the right place to talk about them here). So per Encyclopedia Britannica, i included al-Muqaddasi in this little list above, which is for entries that should be back on the list as per the sources provided by me, and user TheseusHeLl thought reliable aswell. -MWahaiibii (talk) 23:02, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

RfC: Averroes
Should we remove Averroes from the list?-- SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 18:28, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Survey

 * No, multiple high quality sources call him Arab. . All of these sources are reliable. There is no reason to remove him from the list.-- SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 18:28, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, Cherry picking sources that refers to him as Arab philosopher or Arab writer doesn't constitute a reliable source. The majority of reliable sources doesn't discuss his origins, because they are unknown.
 * In example the EI2 gives more detail about his life... without talking about his ethnicity because nothing is know about it, "Ibn Rushd belonged to an important Spanish family. His grandfather (d. 520/1126), a Maliki jurisconsult, had been qaddi and imam of the Great Mosque of Cordova.".
 * The Cambridge Companion to Arabic Philosophy, "...was born at Cordoba into a family prominent for its expert devotion to the study...".
 * Islamic Legal Thought: A Compendium of Muslim Jurists, this book gave a 27 page biography of his grandfather (Ibn Rushd al-Jadd) and it says, "......Little is known about the origins and activities of his family. To judge by the short genealogy provided by early biographers, it seems that he was the first member of his family to gain renown. It is not until IbnʿAbd al-Malik al-Marrākushī (d. 703/1303) that we find a short entry on Ibn Rushd’s father included in a biographical dictionary: “Aḥmad b. Aḥmad b. Muḥammad b. Aḥmad b. ʿAbd Allāh b. Rushd, a man of science, excellence and integrity (ʿadāla), was still alive in 482/1089.” Subsequently, the Maghribī historian al-Maqqarī provided what appears to be the complete genealogy of Ibn Rushd al-Jadd: Abū l-Walīd Muḥammad b. Aḥmad b. Aḥmad b. Aḥmad b. Muḥammad b. Aḥmad b. ʿAbd Allāh b. Rushd. This suggests that it was the grandfather of Ibn Rushd’s great-grandfather...who converted to Islam. Assuming that the average lifespan in al-Andalus was forty lunar years, and that twenty-five was the average age of conversion, Ibn Rushd’s ancestors would have converted to Islam about the middle of the 3rd/9th century, approximately two centuries after the Muslims arrived in the Iberian Peninsula."
 * Even the book, "Averroes: His Life, Works, and Influence" never talks about his origins/ethnicity while giving a lengthy discussion of his life/teachers/ideas, "According to his leading biographers, including al-Marakushi (d. 1224), Ibn al-Abbar (d. 1260), Ibn Abi Usaybi'ah (d. 1270) and al-Ansiri (d. 1288), Averroes was born in Cordova, Spain, in 1126, into a prominent family of religious (Mdiki) judges and statesmen, and in the manner of his father and grandfather, who served as Msliki judges of Cordova, the young Averroes studied jurisprudence, Arabic, letters (adab), theology (kahm), philosophy and medicine at the hands of a number of teachers whose names are sometimes mentioned by his biographers."
 * If it's a known fact that he was of Arab origin. Why we should cherrypick four or five sources that we found in a quick search Google books while typing "Arab philospher"?
 * -TheseusHeLl (talk) 19:10, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
 * "The majority of reliable sources doesn't discuss his origins"
 * Assuming this is true (it's not), we have multiple reliable sources that say he is an Arab. There is no reliable source that says he is not an Arab. Your whole point is that there are some sources that doesnt talk about his ethnicity? Weak !vote.-- SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 19:18, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Assuming this is true (it's not)
 * Actually, it is
 * we have multiple reliable sources that say he is an Arab. There is no reliable source that says he is not an Arab. Your whole point is that there are some sources that doesnt talk about his ethnicity?
 * Nope. Your whole schtick is typing Arab philosopher/writer/historian/XXX in the search bar of google books with a presupposition that the person is Arab. And using the two/three/four sources that you found (where Arab is used tangentially). What about all the books that never discusses his origins while going in length about his life/origins/family/teachers/works? Giving weigth to quick mentions while avoiding lengthy discussions of life/career/works is not how an encyclopedia works. So a quick mention of Arab is more reliable than a 27 page biography of his grandfather, where the author says that, "Little is known about the origins and activities of his family." and "......what appears to be the complete genealogy of Ibn Rushd al-Jadd: Abū l-Walīd Muḥammad b. Aḥmad......b. Rushd. This suggests that it was the grandfather of Ibn Rushd’s great-grandfather (ʿAbd Allāh) who converted to Islam. Assuming that the average lifespan in al-Andalus was forty lunar years, and that twenty-five was the average age of conversion, Ibn Rushd’s ancestors would have converted to Islam about the middle of the 3rd/9th century, approximately two centuries after the Muslims arrived in the Iberian Peninsula" and more reliable than a 11 chapter book (Averroes: His Life, Works, and Influence) all about Averroes' biography/writings/ideas/criticisms/responses, where the only thing the author says about his origins is "According to his leading biographers, including al-Marakushi (d. 1224), Ibn al-Abbar (d. 1260), Ibn Abi Usaybi'ah (d. 1270) and al-Ansiri (d. 1288), Averroes was born in Cordova, Spain, in 1126, into a prominent family of religious (Mdiki) judges and statesmen, and in the manner of his father and grandfather, who served as Msliki judges of Cordova, the young Averroes studied jurisprudence, Arabic, letters (adab), theology (kahm), philosophy and medicine at the hands of a number of teachers whose names are sometimes mentioned by his biographers."
 * Weak !vote.
 * That's you POV.
 * That's you POV.

-TheseusHeLl (talk) 20:52, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

SharʿabSalam▼ Even in EI2 his ethnicity was not disclosed, due to lack of awareness about it. In the book ::Islamic Legal Thought: A Compendium of Muslim Jurists, this book gave a 27 page biography of his grandfather (Ibn Rushd al-Jadd), it described that very little is known about origins of his family, despite the 27 page biography of his grandfather. Idealigic (talk) 09:29, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes So far, i have not been able to find any reliable source supporting his Arab background. All the sources proposed by SharabSalam have been debunked for this topic by the reliable noticeboard. ---Wikaviani  (talk) (contribs)  21:22, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
 * No Although it might be somewhat doubtful concerning his originally (between Arab or Andalus), --BUT-- considering that: firstly: being mentioned in a part of sources "as Arab" (as SharʿabSalam▼ profitably pointed out some of them); Secondly: I reckon, being neighborhood between these two countires (namely Morocco and Spain (Andalus)) can increase the probability of being Arab (for him), since immigration was/is considered as a common issue between diverse people of the world, among Arabs. As a consequence, including the mentioned individual --Averroes-- as an Arab scientists in the list can be regarded as a acceptable/informative matter. Ali Ahwazi (talk) 06:49, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment One of the most reliable sources I found about him is Averroès et l'averroïsme, XIIe–XVe siècle: un itinéraire historique du Haut Atlas by the authors (Andrés Bazzana (Archaologist), Nicole Bériou (Medievalist), Pierre Guichard (Medievalist)), where the authors says about his family, "La famille des Banu Rushd est une famille des juristes, probablement d'origne indigène (muwallad), très réputés...." (trans. The Banu Rushd family is a family of jurists, probably of native origin (muwallad), very famous...."). This source supports the book "Islamic Legal Thought: A Compendium of Muslim Jurists", This suggests that it was the grandfather of Ibn Rushd’s great-grandfather...who converted to Islam. Assuming that the average lifespan in al-Andalus was forty lunar years, and that twenty-five was the average age of conversion, Ibn Rushd’s ancestors would have converted to Islam about the middle of the 3rd/9th century, approximately two centuries after the Muslims arrived in the Iberian Peninsula. -TheseusHeLl (talk) 20:22, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes It should be due to unreliable sources. Idealigic (talk) 12:24, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * , which source is unreliable? Is the Encyclopaedia of Islam unreliable? Please check the sources I have provided. If you make a google search you will find more reliable sources saying he is an Arab like this one, written by Albrecht Classen, a medievalist.-- SharʿabSalam▼  (talk) 03:19, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Comment : The Encyclopedia of Islam mentioned by SharabSalam is a 100 years old version... And Classen has no expertise in Islamic history. ---Wikaviani  (talk) (contribs)  20:03, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I think TheseusHeLl's arguments are convincing. While some sources have had passing mentions, any in depth discussion on the subject reveals unknown origins and classifying him as Arab unequivocally is obfuscating and oversimplifying those complex and unknown origins. We should include him here if we know he is Arab as per a consensus of reliable sources. That consensus has not been achieved. Zoozaz1 03:18, 2 May 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zoozaz1 (talk • contribs)

Ali was a scholar?
this article claims Ali was a scientist or scholar. in what world? I need some explanation, if not i suggest we remove him or others that don't match the description of scientist 2406:3400:313:B310:48E5:81E5:689B:6161 (talk) 05:19, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

abu but not umm
"Abu" is not used for indexing, but "Umm" is and we get a collection of women scholars under "U". Either both or neither should be used for indexing. 158.222.192.152 (talk) 06:31, 27 October 2023 (UTC)