Talk:List of presidents of Venezuela

Standardized naming convention
The abreviation template at the bottom is wrong when in selecting some of the names -for the purposes of using only one name. For example Marcos Perez Jimenez should appear as Perez or as Perez Jimenez, but not as Jimenez. --Anagnorisis 09:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Copying my comment from the template talk page: Can anyone explain to me why some of the Presidential names listed on the template include doble apellido (both last names -- mother's and father's - per Venezuelan custom - e.g.; Perez Jimenez), while others do not (e.g.; Chavez Frias)?  Shouldn't one standardized naming convention be used ?  Are naming conventions in Venezuela explained anywhere? Sandy 11:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Sandy, your previous example is wrong. Both presidents are mentioned with both their last names. This cultural difference often causes funny mistakes and no small deal of mischief. In all of Latin America (not just in Venezuela), you formally use both your surnames: the main one is your father's, the second one is your mother's. For abbreviation, however, or when referring informally to someone, you mention just the main surname. To complicate things further, some people insist in using additional first names. When travelling north, one usually gets his surname lost, as everyone assumes the main surname is the last one, which it is not. Occasionally someone preventively writes his/her two surnames together, tied by a hyphen. Thus, just a few examples: Marcos (one first name) Pérez Jiménez (two surnames); Carlos Andrés (two first names) Pérez (one surname, no one remembers his second surname); Hugo Rafael (two first names) Chávez Frías (two surnames); Arturo (one first name) Uslar-Pietri (two surnames tied so there's no confusion). But that's easy. It used to be a lot more complicated in the past: Simón Bolívar had an extraordinarily complex name, a common custom at his time: Simón José Antonio de la Santísima Trinidad (four names, the last one referring to the Holy Trinity) Bolívar Palacios y Blanco (two surnames, the second one a compound family name). Regards, AVM 21:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * AVM, thanks so much for the long explanation of surnames in Latin America. The explanation will be helpful to others who may not understand Hispanic surnames or the question, which I apparently didn't spell out clearly enough (I already understand my surnames :-)  There are multiple lists and templates of Venezuelan presidents on Wiki.  If you look at the template shown at the bottom of the List of Presidents of Venezuela, you'll see that Chávez Frías is listed only as Chávez, while Pérez Jiménez is listed with both surnames. Mixing styles in one template.  If you look at the actual list on the main page here, you'll find Hugo Chávez Frías (both surnames) and Rafael Caldera (one surname), rather than Rafael Caldera Rodríguez (both surnames). This is not explained anywhere on the page to the reader unfamiliar with Hispanic surnames.  So, again, my question is should we not use a standardized naming convention?  That is, either use both surnames, or use only one surname, rather than a mix of style throughout the Presidential articles in Wiki (or at least within the same page or template?  You and I understand Hispanic surnames, but others may be confused.  My recommendation is that we use both surnames in the main article, List of Presidents of Venezuela, and only one surname in the template, for brevity.  This may help the unitiated understand the difference.  Thanks for helping out ! I also put out a request for help on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Venezuela.  Sandy 14:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikiproject Venezuela
I'm looking forward to found the WikiProject Venezuela. I had the idea of creating it when I first made the portal. The project will have the main objective of centrating efforts into a more complete information and a higher quality of the articles in Wikipedia, other media in the sister projects, and the portal itself.

However, the rules say that I should have at least five to ten members willing to integrate and contribute to the wikiproject. So if some of you guys want to join in, then leave me a message, or in this page. I will be back in a few days to see how things are going on.

Go to Wikiproject/List_of_proposed_projects and list yourselves if you wanna join. --Alex Coiro 06:33, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Carmona as interim president
Multiple reliable sources (just a few included here) indicate that Pedro Carmona was interim President of Venezuela. Please refrain from deleting information referenced to reliable sources, and stop inserting original research.

  Sandy 22:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Original research to claim that Carmona wasn't President. Lol, that is so funny but clearly not true, as my link shows. Given Sandy's intransigence I have had no choice but to tag this article with a NPOV tag. Labelling sources such as the Venezualan gob as original research implies that only North Americans or Brits like the BBC and not the Venezuelans themselves have a right to define who is their President which is an extreme POV, SqueakBox 19:11, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * A virtual libray is not a reliable source, and even if it were, it gives undue weight to a minority view. Sandy 19:28, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * And the source can't count. Iola k ana |T  19:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * “En Venezuela no hay ningún presidente transitorio interino (sic), el ciudadano Pedro Carmona Estanga cometió un delito de usurpación de funciones presidenciales y tiene que ser procesado judicialmente por este delito como cualquier ciudadano que incurre en un delito en el marco del estado de derecho que impera en Venezuela” William Lara, president of the National Assembly of Venezuela (2002)

Perhaps the opinion of the legislative power counts. JRSP 19:38, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I doubt it, this seems to be about more than who was President of Venezuela and any source will be ignored by Carmona's supporters, as per the current evidence, SqueakBox 19:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * And stop the incivilty and personal attacks. Iola k ana |T  14:31, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Can we please keep the discussion where it started, on Talk:Pedro Carmona, so we don't have to say the same thing in 3 places? Thanks, Sandy 20:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Octavio Lepage
Octavio Lepage was interim president between Carlos Andrés Perez(2nd term) and Ramon J Velázquez JRSP 23:56, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I wasn't in Venezuela then, or aware. Do you have several high-quality reliable sources labeling him as such?  Changing this information affects dozens (if not more) of different articles and templates throughout Wiki, so it is not something that should be done rashly as SqueakBox did with Carmona.  We need to have sources, broad consensus, and probably a list of all the places that would need to be updated, since it will put the numbers out of whack.   Sandy 00:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * see footnote #2 in the article JRSP 00:33, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There could be more "forgotten interim presidents". Perhaps we should set a reasonable minimum time for putting somebody in the list JRSP 00:42, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I was just looking over all of the material in the References, as well as the footnote in the Chavez article, saying he was the 53rd President. Straightening this out will be a real mess.  A lot of it looks like complilations from various sources, with some original research thrown in as well.  This is why I'd like for SqueakBox to work on a consensual basis, rather than charging forward with deletes without discussing them.  This stuff works its way through all of the Venezuelan articles, including the claim that Chavez is #53 (which I never understood until I saw this chart, and I'm not that sure of it still); we should nail it down before we start operating on tables and templates.


 * I don't even understand the first two columns in this chart, different sources say different things, and how do we even define "President" in the older history of Venezuela? The sources also mention several books, that might be helpful?  There is a long, long discussion of the issue of presidential succession in Venezuela on Saravask's original FAC for the Chavez article, but revisiting all of this is going to be a lot of work.  What was the criteria used in making this table?


 * Anyway, footnote #2 gives no reliable source for Lepage (this is the problem with a lot of this older material, written by Saravask before referencing requirements in Wiki were tightened up), so we don't know on what basis he was excluded from the table. Can't someone get hold of some of these textbooks, or something from Venezuelan historians?  We should ask for help on the WikiProject page.  I'm going to see if I can dig up any reliable sources on Lepage; we can't be using unsourced Wiki footnotes as a source.  Sandy 00:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Nothing in Google News, nothing in BBC, and El Universal's archives start at 1996. Don't know what to do next with this mess.  We need books from Venezuelan historians. Sandy 00:53, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I found this JRSP 00:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll look at that in a minute. I noticed the text at the top seems to indicate (??) that this list is supposed to include absolutely everyone:  Many of the men listed below became President on a provisional basis as they waited for the arrival of the elected or regular president, such as commonly occurs in the aftermath of a civil war, rebellion, or coup d'état. As a consequence, other Venezuelan presidential rosters may not choose to include the 61 terms below, citing the extreme brevity of certain terms, unusual circumstances that may have surrounded a president's ascendancy into office, and other factors.  That makes it sound like this includes even the briefest of "Presidents", so why did they leave out Lepage ?  That seems to be addressed here:  The most common listing criteria create a traditionally recognized list of 53 distinct presidential terms.  So, some Venezuelan historians or texts use the list of 53 as the most common, which omits Lepage ???? Sandy 00:59, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I can't get to the NYT article without paying. Instead of forking over the $5, I'll just go to the libary tomorrow and get a copy, unless someone else has it.  Sandy 01:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I left a question for Agnorisis, since he was involved in some of Saravask's work. Sandy 01:08, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * This one or two day presidents must have been common in the XIX century. If we check history books things can become very complicated. I think we should set a minimum. Many History books put Soublette right after Vargas, for instance. Let me see if I can get you something free for Octavio Lepage JRSP 01:10, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't mind going to the library, but can't do it tonight. Do we understand the statement about the "most common listing" being the 53 ?? Sandy 01:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Here, even a photo of CAP and Lepage JRSP 01:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * ugh, too late at night for me to read pages of Spanish (I'm remembering now those events, though). The NY Times will give us the reliable source.  We have to figure out why Lepage was left out.  The more I study the chart, the more I like it.  The number 53 seems appropriate, since it doesn't count the "interim" "caretakes" and other such things.  But, they are shown, which serves to give a more complete picture of historical events.  SqueakBox should be ressured that Carmona doesn't get "counted" in the official Presidential succession of 53 Presidents, but he's there to show that "something" happened in April 2002.  On that basis, and considering there are several older "interim caretakers" that also aren't included in the 53 tally, it seems that Lepage should be there as well.  But we need to see some of the original sources used in generating the chart, so that we're not engaging in original research.  Sandy 01:22, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Diosdado Cabello
And yet, another question. Diosdado Cabello (also with no sources, as so many old Wiki articles) says, ''Cabello said that "I, Diosdado Cabello, am assuming the presidency until such time as the president of the republic, Hugo Chávez Frías, appears." '' So, was he actually sworn in, if so by whom, or did he auto-assume the Presidency? Sandy 01:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Normal bussiness for the VP. Isaías Rodríguez, Adina Bastidas and JV Rangel assumed the presidency several times JRSP 01:18, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * He was sworn by W Lara, then president of the Assembly JRSP 01:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * So, why do we include Cabello in the chart, and not them, for example? Very confusing ... perhaps relating to what Agnorisis said on the Pedro Carmona talk page.  The events of April 2002 have to be somehow explained and accounted for in the chart, since they weren't the "business of usual" of when a VP is temporarily sworn in during a presidential absence ? Sandy 01:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps a footnote, like Lepage JRSP 01:27, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * But we need to be consistent: I wish I understood the older "interim" cases. We can't do one thing on the older cases, another on Carmona/Cabello, and another on LePage.  I'm going to post a question to WikiProject Venezuela, to see if we can get broader input.  Sandy 01:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Check this old discussion JRSP 01:59, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Copying my Talk:Pedro Carmona response here. Referencing requirements have gotten much tighter on Wiki, and the decisions taken there look rather informal, in retrospect (in other words, what we might call original research today, if the statements aren't referenced). The References at the bottom of List of Presidents of Venezuela include one source that shows 40 presidents, one that shows 45, and one that shows 53 (all different ways of counting them).  It seems that Saravask's chart converted all of that information to 53 distinct presidential terms, vs. 40 or 45 distinct Presidents, and also showed the "interim" uncounted "caretaker" presidents, yet leaving out Lepage.  More info is better than less IMO, but whatever we do, we need to make our sources more clear, via better inline citations.  Sandy 02:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps we should better look at 1836. It can be considered the 1st coup in Venezuelan history. As I said above, many lists put Soublette right after Vargas JRSP 14:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Re-visiting the entire Presidential list
JRSP, I have the NY Times Lepage article now, and several ideas of how we can address a lot of the issues with the Venezuelan Presidential info throughout Wiki. After all that Venezuelan-Israeli relations work, I'm a bit exhausted, but if we can get enough editors on board to develop some consensus that might hold across all of the Presidential articles, I can type up my ideas, which I think/hope would please SqueakBox. Sandy 22:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * There seems to be some confusion on how Hugo chavez was "elected". Some suspect (I daresay many?) Electoral fraud. 70.90.61.57 14:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Why don't we try to simplify things by avoiding counting? I mean, lets discuss if X or Y was president or not, but lets not spend time trying to count to 53 or 54 or 67 or whatever. Making a list trying to label with numbers will be too complicated and this will lead to different sources. In Venezuela (as opposed to the USA) people do not tend to think of presidents as the number X president; the guy was president from such date to such other date -that is all; if someone wants to count and say he was number 45 or 47, people in Venezuela will say "so what?" or "who cares?" Thus, I suggest we make the list without the numbering. As to Lepage in 1993, I think he should be included. Here there is mention of him being caretaker president as replacement for Perez  Anagnorisis  09:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Here is another one  Anagnorisis  09:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That was going to be part of my proposal: it seems like Saravask tried to model this after the US Presidents list, which led to trouble.  It is US-centric to look at it this way, since it's not the way Venezuelans look at it, and we probably can't find reliable sources that back up any of this counting.  Look at the sources given in the article.  One is a personal website, one is someone's opinion from UCAB, and one is a Venezuelan gov't site, which doesn't go as far back as the other sources do (and additionally reflects current government bias).  Venezuela does not use presidential numbering and terms equivalent to the USA, so this "Featured List" is really bordering on original research, particularly with the "53rd President" issue.  (I was curious to see how the US list counts Gerald Ford, as that would be similar to situation after CAP resigned:  List of Presidents of the United States.)


 * We need to address this List first, as well as the template, individual articles, the Presidential infobox, and the issue of Chavez being called "number 53" in his article. With all due respect to Saravask, who put enormous amounts of very nice work into all of this, it is somewhat strange to me to have US-centric lists generated by someone in India who has never been to Venezuela and doesn't speak Spanish .   Before we begin this work, it would be good to have as many editors involved and working consensually as possible, so that we don't have more problems in the future.  If a lot of editors are on board, I'm willing to type up lots of suggestions for how we can proceed.


 * I found something in one of the personal websites which may be helpful, and before we undertake this work, I hope someone can get hold of some hard-print resources, so that we're not relying on personal websites to verify this list.


 * Finalmente, las principales fuentes bibliográficas para esta parte fueron:


 * Guillermo Morón, "Los Presidentes de Venezuela", Ed. Planeta, 3ra Edición, 1996.
 * Manuel Tomás Lander, "Historia Amena de Venezuela", Ed. Histamena, 1991.
 * Francisco Herrera Luque, "Los cuatro reyes de la baraja", Ed. Grijalbo, 1991.


 * IMO, we should avoid using personal websites, as they are not reliable sources. We shouldn't use personal websites written by students at UCAB to write Venezuela's history on Wikipedia:  we need to go to sources that meet the policy of WP:V.  Sandy 15:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Sandy 14:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead! Do it Sandy. Regarding Saravask work, yes, I remember discussing this with him in the past, and yes, we can now say it was original work. He came with his own system for counting. At the time I didn't challenge him on the actual counting but on the inconsistency vis a vis the counting in the Spanish language wikipedia. Personally, I would list the information without trying to interpret with a number by counting -readers can reach their own conclussion. In Venezuela, contrary to the USA, there is no official count, so I think we can get rid of it. What would matter most is discussing and agreeing if Lepage should be in the list or not. Cheers. Anagnorisis 03:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Juan Crisóstomo Falcón is an interesting case: "he was briefly overthrown in 1865" JRSP 05:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Andrés Navarte was also interim caretaker for 20 days in 1835 before Vargas and this is not in the list. He was also interim after Vargas, as the list says JRSP 20:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Liberal and conservative
Should be notice that the presidents are colored according to their parties, but only AD and COPEI, I think someone should also divide the XIX presidential list in Liberal and Conservative

(Maxmordon 18:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)).

list
should be added to the list of presidents diosdado cabello and pedro carmona estanga.Srmagnetismo (talk) 20:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This issue has already been discussed at Talk:Pedro Carmona. JRSP (talk) 12:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:PresidenteLinaresAlcantara.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 15:22, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Revolución de las Reformas
We should add to the list Santiago Mariño, between the first term of José María Vargas and the one of José María Carreño, because he took the control of the goverment.  I € ₣  (t al k)  20:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

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formatting of list
It is bad. Somebody should fix it (I don't really know how). john k (talk) 13:31, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I've fixed it. It was due to by . Gabbe (talk) 14:07, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Great, thanks! john k (talk) 18:30, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Selected all??
Can anyone explain to me the chart? Chavez is the 61st unique President, but what does it mean by 52nd "selected all"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoelWhy (talk • contribs) 21:04, April 18, 2012
 * No, because there is no explanation: it was all original research. See all of the preceding talk discussions.  I've removed the numbering (which I promised to do years ago and forgot).  There are still problems here; this should not be a featured list.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 14:39, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Chavez
Why are Chavez's second & third terms shown as 6yrs, when before 2009, the prez term was 5yrs? GoodDay (talk) 03:13, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Because the coup d'etat of 2002 changed the election date. he was elected in 1998. Then he made a new constitution in 1999 and elections were held again in 2000. Subsequently, after he took office in 2001, the next elections were to be in 2006 (and they were). This is a weird situation that is difficult to explain, even for a venezuelan like me :S — ΛΧΣ  21™  03:36, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Before 2009, the term was to be 5yrs. It's only after 2009, that the term changed to 6yrs. GoodDay (talk) 04:38, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes but sadly here politics seemed to work very weird. because of the years beign changed to 6, the elections were moved from 2011 to 2012. — ΛΧΣ  21™  05:10, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
 * But, I'm mentioning the terms of office before the Constitutional change to 6yrs. GoodDay (talk) 18:52, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Book reference for the References section?
Can we think of a realiable reference in the form of a history book for the 'References' section? We should look for an authority in the history of presidents of Venezuela, because the references we have now in the article are mostly old websites and government sites that lead to dead links.--Forich (talk) 22:17, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Semi protection request
Not done: requests for changes to the page protection level should be made at Requests for page protection. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 23:11, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

All sources are reporting that Nicolás Maduro is acting
Despite what the constitution said, news sourcing are reporting that Chavez' hand picked successor, Maduro, is acting president. Ryan Vesey 00:42, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

It seems that the best solution for now (see the talk page for Cebello) is to not state the existence of an interim president right now. What is the best way to do that on this page? Ryan Vesey 02:10, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * This article, will likely follow whatever's decided at the other articles-in-question. GoodDay (talk) 03:35, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

3 columns of numbers
Can someone prove a source for this formatting, it has the feel of original research about it and is at odds with other such lists, such as :


 * List of Presidents of the United States
 * List of Presidents of France
 * List of Presidents of Brazil
 * List of Presidents of Mexico

who just list one number.  LGA talk  edits   06:16, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * This isn't original research, it easily qualifies as a routine calculation. That said I'm unsure that the three different numbering systems is necessary or desirable.  That said, what numbering system would be used in place of the three currently used?  Having only checked with Chavez, it doesn't appear that Venezuelan presidents are numbered like American Presidents in reliable sources.  He is not referred to as the 52nd, 61st, 73rd, etc. president of Venezuela.  The list could do a better job of describing what each numbering system actually means, it took me a while to determine, but other than that fix, I can't think of a better solution. Ryan Vesey 06:38, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't agree that it fits into the routine calculation exception, because of the fact that no WP:RS talks about the numbering means that a WP editor has decided what numbers correspond to whom and that is original research as there is no RS defined starting point. What would be a routine calculation is if a RS had a list of say the first 40 Presidents and a WP editor then continued the series to number the next 37 or 25 or however meany.  LGA talk  edits   08:07, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * A Wikipedia editor has not decided which numbers correspond to whom in some arbitrary manner. Three numbering systems exist on the page.  Routine calculations were used to associate the correct numbers with the various presidents once the numbering system existed.  The question we should be asking is what, if any, numbering system should we use.  If this system of three numbering systems is not sustained, I would prefer no numbering system as the current system presents various ways of looking at the information, while choosing one would imply that an official numbering system exists. Ryan Vesey 08:12, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * You said it yourself it doesn't appear that Venezuelan presidents are numbered like American Presidents in reliable sources which is my point, if no RS uses a numbering system then we should not use one, a WP editor (or multiple ones) have created a numbering system where none exists in RS's and that is original research. Happy for the numbers to be removed.  LGA  talk  edits   08:39, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you can go ahead and remove the numbering then. As I said, I have no opposition to that. Ryan Vesey 01:49, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The numbering of Venezuelan presidents, is a giant headache. Do you include interim presidents? dictators. Do you count via individuals, via presidential terms? Who knows. GoodDay (talk) 14:26, 6 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I have removed the numbering, it can go back if we have a WP:RS to show how it should be numbered.

Bolivar and Mendoza not listed in references.
The list includes them, but not one of the four references does. They all start with Páez. Remove? InedibleHulk (talk) 16:14, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I removed them, but don't understand the numbering scheme (selected all?). Someone who does might want to fix that. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:34, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I have removed the numbering as per the above section.  LGA talk  edits   04:13, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Nicolás Maduro's Occupation
A number of sources have Mr Maduro occupation as a Bus Driver, such as The Guardian, The Australian, Aljazeera, Irish Independent and Reuters so I have added that and sourced it. If there is a disagreement then please provide RS to show other wise.  LGA talk  edits   00:49, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * There isn't any disagreement that he worked as a bus driver, but I think it's a misrepresentation to call that his occupation. Much more relevant is his work as a union leader/politician (congressman, foreign minister, vice president). Ryan Vesey 01:46, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * But as all Presidents are politicians it is better to how what his occupation was prior to going into politics. Happy for it to read Bus Driver and union leader as per the Reuters source if you think that would be better.  LGA <sub style="color:#8B0000;">talk <sup style="margin-left:-4ex"> edits   02:02, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Have you found anything yet that mentioned how long he was a bus driver for? Right now his Wikipedia article says he began trade union work in what would have been his early 20s.  If that was the end of his bus driving days, I really wouldn't list it as an occupation.  My occupation will never be McDonalds Worker even though I worked there through high school. Ryan Vesey 02:23, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * As I said, if sources consider his occupation was something else then we can change it, I have looked for sources that call him a career politician and did not find anything. As a compromise I have changed it to Bus Driver and Union Leader as per Reuters.  LGA <sub style="color:#8B0000;">talk <sup style="margin-left:-4ex"> edits   03:57, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

La forma correcta de representar la opcupación del Sr. Nicolas Maduro (Presidente de Venezuela año 2013), es de POLITICO, su trabajo como conductor en el Metro de Caracas fue en las fechas de entre 1991 y 1998, donde llegó a dirigir su sindicato y como tal fue miembro de la junta directiva de esa empresa pública, ente este periodo y después el Sr en cuestión fue y es POLITICO. La forma en como plasman su OCUPACIÓN es una ofensa al país, sin tomar en cuenta su carrera actual, la cual lleva más de 15 años ejerciendo. Los venezolanos pedimos que esto sea corregido. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michelle-Barraez (talk • contribs) 13:12, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Estimada, Michelle-Barraez. Lamentablemente para indicar que es político, debe tener una titulación que lo acredite como politólogo. Sin embargo, no se tiene registro alguno sobre estudios de politología en universidad alguna. Su desempeño laboral fue como conductor de bus y su experiencia política como líder sindical. De ahí no se pueden confundir cargos políticos como carrera que haya desempeñado, pues estos son escalafones pero no preparación académica. --Kerg23 (talk) 21:01, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Edit request on 17 April 2013
Please change Nicolas Maduro as former elected president of Venezuela. This is a violation to all the democratic process of Venezuela, since he has not followed the legislation protocol and the voted of the Venezuelan people have not being re-counted. He proclaimed himself against the will of more than half of the Venezuelan people and if you published that he is the president of Venezuela, you are confirming a dictator and misinforming the rest of the world. Please, stay truth of the facts....

Rmollz (talk) 07:17, 17 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done:He didn't proclaim himself, the electoral council did. According to them, so did slightly more Venezuelans. Since they're the highest authority on the matter and called the decision "irreversible", Wikipedia has to take their opinion over those who think Capriles won. Maybe the vote was rigged, maybe not. Until someone else decides that, officially, Wikipedia isn't for protesting any government. The situation is explained in the election article, so it's not like Wikipedia is silencing protest, either. Nobody is ever forced to believe an official account of anything, but that's what they should expect to find in an encyclopedia. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:21, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

2013 Election
The introducing paragraph to the section is unsourced. The table has a single source, and I guess it's unlikely that the statistics provided in the reference supporting the table can also support the unsourced paragraph. Having this issue, I cannot figure out how the list is an FL one that appears in the Main Page...--Jetstreamer Talk 14:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Reformatting and expanding the article
I think this article should be reformatted and expanded to look like the corresponding article on Spanish Wikipedia - es:Presidente de Venezuela, and it should also be moved to new name - President of Venezuela. By doing this, this article would be immensely expanded - many useful data related to the post of the President would be transferred here, the list of Presidents would be remodeled and eventually it would contain much more data than the present list. In order to achieve that, Spanish article should be translated - I know it would be a big task, its a huge article. Also, it would take some time to remodel the list of Presidents... I really hope someone will have enough time to do that. Unfortunately, I don't think that I'll have enough time to jump into such a huge task in near future, but I'd be ready to help somehow if its needed. In the end, beside the Spanish version of this article, we should also look at the List of Presidents of Colombia as a very good role model for reformatting, expanding and general improving of this article. Cheers! --Sundostund (talk) 19:09, 26 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I've created the article President of Venezuela, mostly with translated content from the Spanish Wikipedia (just the parts I could find references about). I didn't translate the entire thing because most of the content was irrelevant; long lists specifying the duties of presidents as stated in former constitutions. In any case, I think this article can now be reduced to just a list, complementary to the President of Venezuela article, as in most other heads of state articles around. -- dainshku  •  holla at me  03:35, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

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Restored cited content
I've restored content cited to multiple reliable sources that are unconnected with the subject and have a reputation for fact checking. This content was removed with edit summaries like, "No official or legally binding evidence to support this information". That is utterly irrelevant. Legally binding? Official? We are not an official outlet of the UN or Venezuela. -- <b style="color:black">Dloh cier ekim </b> (talk) 03:42, 16 January 2019 (UTC)


 * When you restored the sourced version you also restored this. It's not sourced and to my thinking is a bit of a BLP problem as someone had to be responsible. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 11:40, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for fixing that.-- <b style="color:black">Dloh cier ekim </b> (talk) 13:57, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:52, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Juan Guaidó restored version.jpg

Discussion of 2019 Presidential Controversy
I noticed there were a bunch of edits about what's going on with regards to Guaido, and then this page got edit-locked, but no corresponding discussion on the talk page seemed to have taken placr. I personally feel like the current tone of the section on Guaido does not adequately acknowledge the political differences between the international actors supporting or opposing the Maduro regime. For instance, it is the case in Latin America that all the pro-US governments and orgs (OAS, for instance) have declared support for Guaido, while all the left wing and anti-US governments (Nicaragua, Cuba, Bolivia, Mexico) have declared support for Maduro, but I don't care enough to cite these claims and add them to an article that's already a mess of NPOV problems. Anyway, this section is a place for people to try and argue about this controversy in the open instead of having edit-wars. -Furicorn (talk) 21:42, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Reverted removal of Guaido - but I think there's a better way
I reverted an anon ip's removal of Guaido, but I don't think this is usefully presented now for the follow reasons:


 * 1) Having Guaidó in a new separate makes it harder for the casual reader to understand the current situation, which is that there are two people claiming to be the President.
 * 2) The other reset-to-a-new-table incidents were renamings of the country and fundamental changes to the governing system.

What I think we should do is list both of them in the main table for now, and indicate that there is a dispute.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:10, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Updated it to reflect what I said above. Because throughout the text of this article and others we (correctly, following virtually all reliable sources) describe the situation as "disputed" (a reasonably neutral term), our table should do the same.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:06, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Continued removal of Guaido
2600:8803:2A00:9A00:A86E:3E75:DC3:B01B has repeatedly removed Guaido, without explanation. Given the discussion above: why should we remove Guaido, instead of describing the situation as "disputed"? Wikiacc (¶) 22:07, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Though I have no idea whether you still have this on watch or w/e -- and I appreciate the comment on my talk, thank you -- we do not present the antipopes as people who have legitimate claims to the leadership of the Catholic Church. The constitutional court in Venezuela said it was unconstitutional. It is akin to, after the Supreme Court in Bush v Gore settled the decision, continue to list Gore as the disputed incumbent President of the US. The only way in which Guaido is President of Venezuela is that he has control over the financial accounts in the United States. He does not actually exercise power, he is not a government-in-exile either, because his presence is tolerated. He has not been banished from his own country. Wh1ter0se (¶) 18:30, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply. Funnily enough, on List of popes, we do list the antipopes, though they're clearly labeled as such. I'd argue that, per WP:NPOV, it's not our role to adjudicate whether the constitutional court or the national assembly is correct; as long as the national assembly has any influence whatsoever, we should (neutrally) discuss what it does.
 * That said, as long as we keep the "(Disputed second term)" marker next to Maduro, we could move the Guaido row down to the section, in order to improve the context and make the situation clearer. What do you think? Wikiacc (¶) 18:07, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
 * This does contradict the change Jimbo made (see ), so we should probably get a few more people to agree before making this change. Personally, I think having Guaido in the main table without context is more confusing than having them separate. Wikiacc (¶) 18:12, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
 * We could clearly mark Guaido as distinct, rather than in a separate table, to avoid the confusion that was presented, as it is for the antipopes - they are highlighted to make it clear. I think that would work best. Wh1ter0se (¶) 20:46, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Using a different color (like dark gray) for Guaido to highlight the dispute makes sense and doesn't introduce confusion. Seems like a good idea to me. Wikiacc (¶) 16:47, 26 September 2019 (UTC)


 * The problem is that the layout currently insinuates that Guaido would be an elected president. This is not only incorrect, but simply not the case either with the PRIOR presidents. I guess a partial "work-around" may be to simply use another colour, and not position it in line with the others, since the current status is, objectively, not sharply defined. Edit: I just noticed the colour reference; oddly enough I hardly noticed that distinction. Perhaps the colours could be a bit thicker or something? I wasn ot noticing any difference in the HTML tables, colour-wise, on a first-glance. 2A02:8388:1641:8380:F57D:59AE:A2AE:B491 (talk) 05:36, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if the color was ever changed. I think you can go ahead and make the Guaido row a darker gray. Wikiacc (¶) 23:45, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:List of Presidents of the United States which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 18:17, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Orphaned references in List of presidents of Venezuela
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of presidents of Venezuela's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "bbc.com":<ul> <li>From 2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis: </li> <li>From President of Venezuela: </li> </ul>

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 18:54, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:22, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Rafael Caldera 1969.jpg