Talk:List of presidents of the United States/Archive 10

Semi-protected edit request on 23 February 2017
The table that contains former presidents unsuccessful bids for office is incomplete. George Bush's attempt at reelection is not included.

After Herbert Hoover add: 199.115.23.217 (talk) 19:04, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
 * George Bush
 * 41
 * style="text-align:center;"|1989–1993
 * President of the United States (1988)
 * }


 * It says "after leaving the presidency", so attempts at office while president aren't a part of that list. --Coemgenus (talk) 19:06, 23 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, it says after leaving the Presidency, but Hoover ran for President WHILE President, and he is still included, so either he needs to be removed from the list or the three failed reelections need to be added. 156.77.111.17 (talk) 13:39, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Term column, should be changed back to Election column
Exactly when was the Election column changed to Term column? Now we've got something that seems clunky & a tad confusing. With more then twice as many years linked within each presidents sections, it's cumbersome. Should be the way it is at List of Vice Presidents of the United States. -- GoodDay (talk) 14:54, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed; "election" is a more accurate title for the column, changing back makes sense, and would bring it into sync w/the VP-list table. I will be bold and make the change (if reverted, we can discuss it here). Drdpw (talk) 15:23, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Completely disagree. An election and an inauguration constitutes a presidential term. The status quo is utterly fine.--Nev&eacute;–selbert 19:30, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Take Ford for example, he was never elected. If we changed the column title back, we'd be doing our readers a disservice.--Nev&eacute;–selbert 21:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Ford served the rest of the 1973-77 term. A term that was established by the 1972 election. GoodDay (talk) 21:38, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Exactly, hence the reason why I believe the column title should remain unchanged. He was never elected and merely finished off Nixon's second term.--Nev&eacute;–selbert 21:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Should be changed back to Election column, with those inauguration dates removed. We already have enough info, showing presidential tenures. GoodDay (talk) 21:48, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree that "term" is more appropriate, and in the case of Ford and the like, his never being elected to the presidency could be confusing to the casual visitor with the heading "election." I agree even more that the column has become clunky with the additional numbers. If I wasn't the frequent visitor that I am, I would never click on any of those. I feel like it was cleaner before, but can't remember what it looked like. It presents as trying to do too much in too small a space, though the information is relevant. The "election of" links could be attached to the term numbers, further making the words "term" and "election" interchangeable. I'm not sure what to do with the inauguration links, but even if those stayed as they are you would then have only one year displayed (or in some cases two). RM2KX (talk) 21:56, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Anchor tags
I would like to be able to link to List of Presidents of the United States orList of Presidents of the United States. So does anyone mind if I add (invisible) anchor tags to each list entry? Siuenti (talk) 02:57, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Why? That's a large amount of seemingly extraneous mark-up. How would adding these anchor tags improve the list or its usefulness? Drdpw (talk) 05:17, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Why not? Seems like a potentially useful idea, and doesn't hurt a bit, as it's fully invisible to readers and markup size is minimal. — JFG talk 09:27, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Note that with List of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom, there are anchor tags via century and via monarch. The former may be worth considering here.--Nev&eacute;–selbert 14:15, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Why not link to [List of Acting Presidents of the United States]] ?
What is the problem with linking to List of Acting presidents of the United States? Because it's a redirect? Siuenti (talk) 03:39, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
 * This article along with the VP list article both now link to Acting president of the United States, which allows readers to see the full background and history of the term/title upfront, rather than being routed right to the list via the redirect. Drdpw (talk) 04:05, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

RfC on Donald Trump
Please comment on this RfC here regarding how best to describe the status of his presidency. Thanks. SW3 5DL (talk) 04:30, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Subsequent Public Service
Under "Subsequent Public Service," it says "Four presidents held other high U.S. federal offices after leaving the presidency." By the wording, Cleveland should not be included as becoming President again is not some "other office." It is the same office. I suggest this be changed to three presidents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.147.22.94 (talk) 01:26, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Harry S. Truman
Since President Truman's entire middle name was the letter S, I suggest the period after it in his name be omitted, although this is routinely not done elsewhere in Wikipedia. ☺ Dick Kimball (talk) 08:34, 4 May 2017 (UTC)


 * See the extensive discussions above ("General Questions" at top of page, Q4) and in the FAQs at the top of the Harry S. Truman Talk page. RM2KX (talk) 13:16, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Should heading capitalization "List of P/presidents" match title capitalization List of P/presidents of the United States?
The title of this article is List of Presidents of the United States. One of the headings is List of presidents. Shouldn't the two use consistent capitalization styles?

That is, shouldn't the heading be List of Presidents?

I know that the article title could be argued either way, but regardless of which way we go, should the heading be consistent?

I changed the heading to be capital P Presidents, but it was reverted without explanation except a vague reference to MOS. Well, MOS is unclear. And regardless of what it says, shouldn't it apply the same to the question of the P capitalization in the title as in the heading?

--В²C ☎ 06:10, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Per WP:JOBTITLES, lowercase is the recommended style.--Nev&eacute;–selbert 11:40, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Article title should have "presidents" in lowercase. Titles are only capitalized when preceding the person's name, i.e. we write "President Trump was elected" but "Trump is the current president." — JFG talk 14:03, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, the capitalization of "president" in the title of the numerous POTUS articles has been an on-going topic of discussion, but no (to answer User:Born2cycle's question), the article title and list section heading do not need to use consistent capitalization styles. MOS:SECTIONCAPS says to "use sentence case, not title case, capitalization in all section headings. Capitalize the first letter of the first word, but leave the rest lower case except for proper names and other items that would ordinarily be capitalized in running text." In other words: "List of presidents". Now, the heading could be shortened to one word: Presidents, as it's obvious that it's a "list of", and stating so refers redundantly to the subject of the article. Drdpw (talk) 14:41, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Any objections to lower-casing the P in Presidents in the title or do we need an RM? --В²C ☎ 00:50, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Objection Unless there's a broad consensus to change every "List of Presidents of the United States by ..." and every "List of Vice Presidents of the United States by ..." article (and by extension, ever "List of Prime Ministers of Canada by ..." article as well). Drdpw (talk) 03:58, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Article title should remain as List of Presidents of the United States. GoodDay (talk) 04:16, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Okay, no title change, at least not without an RM. But we're still left with uppercase Presidents in the title and lowercase in the section heading. Frankly, it looks stupid and unprofessional. We need to get our act together. Suggestions? --В²C ☎ 04:27, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Never mind. I see the heading is now just Presidents. Kind of a punt, but it works. --В²C ☎ 04:30, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * It's a compromise by myself. GoodDay (talk) 15:02, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Sources of Life portrait
Please insert the life portrait sources on the list

https://www.c-span.org/video/?96805-104/life-portrait-george-w-bush

https://www.c-span.org/video/?96805-103/life-portrait-barack-obama

Thank You — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.120.34.138 (talk) 09:04, 21 June 2017 UTC)


 * Sources and copyright status are documented together with each individual image file; you can click on the image and the "More information" button to see details. It is not Wikipedia practice to repeat this information in the body of the article. — JFG talk 09:21, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 June 2017
On the list of the president of the united states, all the way at president Richard Nixon's prior office held. It says he had the 36th presidency, while on Dwight D. Eisenhower's it say's his vice president was Richard Nixon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States 2601:582:C500:BF01:F43B:95F1:C6BF:6A5F (talk) 03:28, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Symbol declined.svg No action. The article says that Nixon was the 36th Vice President, which is correct. Sky  Warrior  03:54, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Post Office Election Failures
If failed attempts to be reelected as President after serving as president is going to be included in the list of fail attempts at another office, then this needs to be consistent. Gerald Ford (1976), Jimmy Carter (1980), and George H.W. Bush (1992) all failed in a reelection campaign in which they were the nominee for their party. These three needed to be added to that list for consistency sake.

156.77.111.17 (talk) 13:36, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * No they do not, and that is because those 3 were in office at the time, whereas the others were not. Drdpw (talk) 13:47, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Semi-protected edit request on 13 July 2017
The entry on the page for the 33rd President Of The U.S.A, Harry S. Truman, lists him under "Previous Office" as "34th Vice President of the United States". Surely this should be "40th Vice President of the United States" (the 34th was Calvin Coolidge). SkyBod (talk) 09:01, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Harry S. Truman was the "34th Vice President of the United States". Calvin Coolidge was the 29th vice president of united states. regards,  DRAGON BOOSTER   ★  09:50, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Gerald Ford, was the 40th Vice President of the USA. GoodDay (talk) 10:18, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Change of portraits: John Quincy Adams through William Henry Harrison
The four portraits of John Quincy Adams, Andrew Jackson, Martin Van Buren and William Henry Harrison were taken after their presidency (except william henry harrison but the picture used for him isn't really the best portrait of him). Therefore I would suggest changing the portraits of the four presidents to painted portraits made before, during or shortly after their presidency instead of photographs taken LONG after after their presidency.

These are the portraits I would suggest using:

--83.93.114.80 (talk) 13:25, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Support – This sounds like a very sensible idea, to avoid anachronism. For recent presidents, we have been using contemporary portraits of their time in office; we should follow the same rules for ancient presidents. — JFG talk 14:08, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose – At least with the options provided. The portraits of Adams and Van Buren were painted in 1844 and 1858 respectively, long after their presidencies' ended. This is around the same time that the photographs of Adams and Van Buren that are used in this article were taken so replacing those two photographs with the suggested paintings would not do much to depict the men as they were when they were POTUS. The painting of Van Buren would also look much too small in the table used in this article. The photograph of Harrison used in this article is from 1841, the year of his presidency, but the suggested portrait of Harrison is from 1813, nearly three decades before he became president. Adding that portrait of Harrison to the article in place of the current photograph would actually make the article more anchronistic, not less. The Jackson portrait is from the shortly after his presidency and I think File:Andrew_jackson_head.jpg is better portrait of him anyway, although I think the currently used photograph (and the other three as well) is still the best option. -- Millionsandbillions (talk) 19:54, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Conditional oppose I agree that portraits made shortly before, during or shortly after the presidency should be preferred, however, as Millionsandbillions points out, the suggested replacements don't fit that bill in three of four cases and in the case of Jackson I agree that the current picture is preferable. Regards  So Why  16:38, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Support for Jackson, Van Buren. Weak support for Adams. Oppose for Harrison I support all of the paintings' inclusions but I am very unsure of the portrait for Adams as provided, can we not crop the official painting? As for Harrison I prefer his photo as it is. 70.44.154.16 (talk) 23:51, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Changing all the head of states and governments pitctures back to their old size before they kept on turning small.
Why are all the pictures small now like on the list of Australian prime ministers they used to be big now they are tiny? Sarah Nahan (talk) 12:23, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Change Trump's picture back to his official portrait
Since it's his official president portrait. Feelthebernofyourwallet (talk) 4:36 PM, September 8 2017 (EST) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.190.4.139 (talk)
 * It appears that the official portrait is under copyright, see this discussion. -- Millionsandbillions (talk) 18:59, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I read something about the lack of presidential photographs in gov buildings that said something along the lines of "President Trump and Vice President Pence still have yet to sit for an official photograph." Hopefully a PD one is coming. MB298 (talk) 20:26, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

COMMONNAME?
I've heard Taft referred more so as "William Howard Taft" then simply "William H. Taft". Thoughts? 70.44.154.16 (talk) 23:38, 1 October 2017 (UTC)


 * I see no reason to deviate from our article title, William Howard Taft, which should be WP:COMMONNAME. Also John Q. Adams and William H. Harrison. Done. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  00:26, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I changed them to H. & Q., so that less familiar readers wouldn't be confused by Martin Van Buren & think that 'Van' was a middle name, which it isn't. GoodDay (talk) 00:59, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I think that's a feeble argument compared to COMMONNAME, but awaiting other comments. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  01:08, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The names listed should be the article's name in question. Since nobody calls John Quincy Adams, "John Q. Adams". 70.44.154.16 (talk) 01:57, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
 * What if it confuses less familiar readers? concerning Van Buren? Those are separate articles, where's here, the names are all together. GoodDay (talk) 02:07, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
 * What if your way confuses less familiar readers who never heard of John Q. Adams. William H. Harrison, or William H. Taft? And how much does it really matter whether "Van" is a middle name or not? And even if it mattered, how many of these less familiar readers do you think will survey the entire list, note that only one name shows a spelled-out word between the forename and surname, and conclude therefore that it must be part of the surname? &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  02:19, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Martin Van Buren doesn't have a middle name, though. Van Buren is his 'last name. GoodDay (talk) 02:23, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know. Sorry but your arguments don't hold water, so I'll stop arguing with you and wait for consensus to do its job. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  02:25, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
 * It's out of my hands. GoodDay (talk) 02:26, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep exact names following article titles. We defer to editors of each President's article to have chosen the appropriate WP:COMMONNAME as established by sources. — JFG talk 03:53, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Reverted by a 4th party. I'm calling 4–1 a consensus for now, although WP:CCC. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  21:52, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Election/Inauguration column
Wouldn't it be less confusing, if we were to pipelink the prez election articles into the chronological number? Example: [United States presidential election, 1788-89|1], [United States presidential election, 1792|2], etc etc. Because having the inauguration years and the election years both shown, is quite messy. GoodDay (talk) 16:31, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree. --Coemgenus (talk) 17:17, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I disagree, I think its fine the way it is. 70.44.154.16 (talk) 00:22, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Change portraits: FDR and Harry Truman
I think the currently existing portraits of the Presidents do a poor job of representing the men in question.

FDR's was taken near the end of his term during his 1944 reelection campaign, he was close to death. And Truman's is just of poor quality, Truman's main page has already change its portrait from the one here to a far superior portrait of much higher quality. So I am suggesting a change of their portraits. 70.44.154.16 (talk) 00:30, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Here are my suggested replacements: I support Truman's replacement but I think FDR's should stay since it is high quality and in color. MB298 (talk) 00:34, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Both currently-used color portraits look fine, no need to bother. — JFG talk 01:54, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I could go for the Truman change, but I'll need more convincing. Current FDR portrait is fine. No change needed. Corky Buzz by the Hornet's Nest   02:27, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The current picture for Truman is of lower res than the one I'm proposing. 70.44.154.16 (talk) 20:27, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 November 2017
Alshamiri1 (talk) 19:26, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 19:29, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Obama portrait
I recommend changing the Obama portrait:

I recognize that the current photo shows a close-up headshot similar to the other presidents, but in cropping the image this way, Obama becomes the first president since Johnson not to have an American flag appear in the background. Given the anti-Obama birther sentiment, I feel that this non-flag image is discriminatory against Obama. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 20:33, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
 * The fact that you're making this a race issue is problematic. If you notice, Bush 41 doesn't have an American flag in his portrait either... instead it looks to be the President's flag. Are we discriminating against Bush 41, too? I see no reason to change it, plus this was discussed at above with the reason as being "second term portraits". Corky  Buzz by the Hornet's Nest   21:17, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
 * You are correct -- the Bush 41 image does not contain a US flag. I had not examined it closely enough to note the difference.
 * I don't believe the earlier discussion of Obama's portrait addressed the point of the flag. The "Official Portrait" released by the White House at the end of Obama's second term was a half-body shot with both the US and Presidential flags in the background. The version used in this article is a crop of that portrait, apparently to make it match the "headshot" style of the rest of the portraits.
 * Rather than making this a race issue, I believe I am trying to address a race issue that already exists. Obama was repeatedly smeared as non-American by those who believed him to be a non-patriotic Muslim (which should not on its face be considered non-patriotic anyway!) who was not born in the United States. Using a portrait that does not include the American flag in the same manner that all other recent presidents' portraits do only serves to underscore that racist assumption of non-patriotism.
 * I'm not married to the idea of changing the portrait; I just wanted to bring up the discussion. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 21:31, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Franklin Pierce portrait
I'm proposing we change Pierce's current portrait to the much more accurate newly cropped version of him recently made. The old one showed an inaccurate mirroring of Pierce's original portrait when in fact it was the other way around. The proposed cropped image matches with Pierce's portrait as seen on his wikipedia page. John C. O&#39;Reilly (talk) 21:33, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Proposed image is my choice. GoodDay (talk) 21:53, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2018
there is a mistake in the column of George H. W. Bush whose prior office was not 43rd vise president but 40th vice president. and also in a column of others president whose prior office is wrong. Sabindahal (talk) 10:11, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
 * ❌Well he was the 43rd VP. The VP number doesn't line up with the president number as the president at the time, Reagan, was the 40th. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, so if you can provide a source, I will make the change.-- JOJ Hutton  14:26, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Recommend you check the article List of Vice Presidents of the United States. There you'll find that Presidents Jefferson, Madison, Jackson, Lincoln, Grant, Cleveland, McKinley, F. Roosevelt & Nixon have had more then one person serve as their vice president. Meanwhile Vice Presidents G. Clinton & Calhoun have each served with more then one president. What it adds up to? the USA has had more vice presidents, then presidents. GoodDay (talk) 14:30, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2018
Request: Please change President Andrew Jackson's portrait from current painting linked in this article, to the Wikipedia page and portrait listing of his official portrait: " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ralph_Eleaser_Whiteside_Earl_-_Andrew_Jackson_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg ". Dao1984 (talk) 00:07, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Also changed John Quincy Adams portrait to use official White House portraits for both per Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:56, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm opposed to this. The portraits are, by necessity, small in the table. This makes the face of Adams very hard to see now because the new portrait is a full-body portrait. -- Millionsandbillions (talk) 21:30, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ replaced John Quincy Adams full-length portrait with cropped version to make face more prominent. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:56, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
 * George Caleb Bingham - John Quincy Adams - Google Art Project (cropped).jpg about we use this photo of Adams, the viewer can more easily make out his face in this portrait as opposed to the current one. 70.44.154.16 (talk) 00:33, 3 January 2018 (UTC)