Talk:List of prime ministers of Elizabeth II

Untitled
Shouldn't UK territories also be included???? Chief Ministers/Premiers etc? CaribDigita 14:29, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sure, why not. We might have to change the title to heads of government of Queen Elizabeth II, then, though. &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) 02:53, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

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Style On Dates
Why do the numbered listed use the format 'since Data' while the tables use 'Date - Present'. Is there a wiki policy that I am forgetting about or does any one mind if I standardise (probably to the ‘Date – Present’ format unless anyone can tell me why the other one is better but I look around for a style guide before I change anything). --Elfwood (talk) 16:10, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Found this, "Dates that are given as ranges should follow the same patterns as given above for birth and death dates. Ranges that come up to the present (as of the time that the information was added to the article) should generally be given in ways that prevent their becoming counterfactually obsolete, e.g. from 1996 onward (as of October 2007), not from 1996 to the present; "the present" is a constantly moving target. In the main text of articles, the form 1996– (with no date after the en-dash) should not be used, though it is preferred in infoboxes and other crowded templates or lists, with the caveat that they may need to be examined by editors more frequently to see if they need to be updated; it is helpful to other editors to add an HTML comment immediately after such constructions, giving the as-of date, e.g.: . The form "since 1996" should be used in article text while the form "1996–present" is preferred in infoboxes."

That explains why it is used but the miss mash of tables (which are being treated as info boxes) and lists (which are being treated as article text) is clumsy in my opinion. One or the other should be used. --Elfwood (talk) 16:16, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

List of Prime Ministers under Queen Elizabeth II
‘John Henaghan’

I Thin we should renamed the wikipedia page to List of Prime Ministers under Queen Elizabeth II  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.188.102.28 (talk) 07:18, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi, that is one suggestion.  What about a more 'position/title' neutral name such as: List of heads of government under Queen Elizabeth II?  The current name is only suggesting "Prime Ministers", however, there are also: Chief Minister(s), Premier(s), and Crown Commissioner(s) of Queen Elizabeth in the British Overseas Territories and remaining Crown Dependencies.  CaribDigita (talk) 12:02, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Titles
It is generally the accepted practice within the Commonwealth when listing Prime Ministers, etc., to include their titles bestowed by a British monarch during that Prime Minister's time in office. Titles they recieved from the monarch after they left office are usually not included in a list like this. For example, Sir Robert Menzies, Sir Keith Holyoake, Sir Robert Muldoon, Sir Alexander Bustamante, Sir Lynden Pindling, Sir Michael Somare, Sir Julius Chan, Sir John Lionel Kotalawela, Sir Khwaja Nazimuddin, Sir Vere Bird, etc., were all knighted at some point while they were still in office, or, indeed, had been knighted before they assumed office. Thus, in these cases, their title should be included with their name in this list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.78.237.35 (talk) 10:16, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not in the Commonwealth. The relevant information regarding this is at WP:HONORIFIC. 2 lines of K  303  17:42, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * In Caribbean realms it is a part of the person's name for life. Source CaribDigita (talk) 03:19, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I would think Wikipedia is not in those realms either. Winged Watermelon (don't text and fly) 03:47, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Prime Ministers of former Commonwealth realms
Shouldn't this be entitled "Prime Ministers of states for which Elizabeth II is no longer sovereign" (or something more snappy) - as at least some of these countries are still in the Commonwealth but have moved to presidential/other systems. LukeSurlt c 14:35, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, I confuse "realm" with "nation". LukeSurlt c 14:37, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Maurice Bishop
It seems coup leader Maurice Bishop is excluded from Grenada's numbering. Is this correct? It seems from People's Revolutionary Government (Grenada) that the country remained a commonwealth realm during the time of Bishop's leadership. The Grenada government seems to discuss Bishop as an official PM and governor-general Paul Scoon's term of office is unbroken despite the revolution  --LukeSurlt c 13:12, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Relation of Prime Ministers to each other
This edit restored material regarding the familial relationships between Prime Ministers which I had previously deleted as too trivial for a lead section, with stating that "by that argument, the whole lede is trivia". I will open a discussion here, as discussions made through edit summaries rarely end well.

This article concerns the relation of Queen Elizabeth II to her Prime Ministers. Much of the lead is necessarily defining the parameters of the list. There is some necessary historical context, explaining to the reader why one Queen has multiple PMs across several countries. The tally of UK, New Zealand, and Austrian PMs is slightly trivial, but it is at least relating to the relationship between Elizabeth and her PMs - whereas the discussion of which PMs were the sons/siblings/spouses of former PMs is a discussion of the relationship of PMs to each other and has little to do with Elizabeth. These relations perhaps could be discussed on the appropriate List of Prime Ministers of X pages, but here it is unnecessary clutter in the lead. --LukeSurlt c 17:34, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The total numbers of prime ministers EIIR has had in four of her realms are, by your admission, trivial, but not as trivial as the highlight of prime ministers who were/are related to previous prime ministers of EIIR? I think you've just demonstrated this is a debate about who's subjective opinion is more right than the other's.
 * I say, if we're going to ask it, the question of what stays or goes should apply to the whole second paragraph. Readers can tally for themselves how many Australian prime ministers the Queen has had just as well as they can how many of her PMs have been sons of earlier PMs of hers. (It's obviously easier for them, though, if its summed up already.) -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  18:42, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd be happy losing the whole 2nd paragraph. It makes me feel slightly uneasy singling out four countries - there's a sort of implicit "these countries are more important" aspect to that. --LukeSurlt c 20:10, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't see where this kinda trivia is harmful to the article. GoodDay (talk) 18:58, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Tally of Prime Ministers
I will remove the sentence "With the appointment of Theresa May as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom on 13th July 2016, the Queen has had 162 individuals serve her as Prime Ministers of her various realms throughout her reign." I don't believe it belongs on the page for the following reasons: --LukeSurlt c 22:23, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * The number is not attributed to a source.
 * Several "acting Prime Ministers" have served Elizabeth and it is somewhat ambiguous whether you count them.
 * The period 1979-1984 in Grenada (People's Revolutionary Government and aftermath) adds a big ambiguity. Do you count Maurice Bishop who seized power outside of the democratic process? How about the other de facto and de jure leaders that followed Bishop during this period?

Title
Is there any reason to capitalise Prime Ministers? If not this page should be moved to List of prime ministers of Queen Elizabeth II. --LukeSurlt c 10:50, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree with the move, no reason to capitalise. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 14:19, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ --LukeSurlt c 14:22, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Reverted back per a request at WP:RM/TR., if you really want the title of this article changed, then please follow the processes set forth at WP:RM. Sky  Warrior  02:38, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 12 October 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 23:21, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

– "Prime minister" in these contexts refers to multiple individuals, holding multiple different offices across different countries. As these are not referring to a specific person or office this is a common noun and not capitalised. The use of the lower case when referring to "prime ministers" in plural is one of the specific examples at Manual_of_Style. LukeSurlt c 08:14, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
 * List of Prime Ministers of Queen Elizabeth II → List of prime ministers of Queen Elizabeth II
 * List of Prime Ministers of King George VI → List of prime ministers of King George VI
 * List of Prime Ministers of King Edward VIII → List of prime ministers of King Edward VIII
 * List of Prime Ministers of King Edward VII → List of prime ministers of King Edward VII
 * List of Prime Ministers of Queen Victoria → List of prime ministers of Queen Victoria
 * Support. Seems like a straight forward change in keeping with WP:MOS, so I'm favour of it. ToastButterToast (talk) 08:51, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Support. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 09:21, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Support per MOS:JOBTITLES and the outcome of several similar recent multi-article RMs involving plurals (Talk:List of mayors of Birmingham, Talk:List of mayors of Finsbury, Talk:List of mayors of Leeds, Talk:List of provosts of Aberdeen). —BarrelProof (talk) 02:49, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Support 'Prime minister' is a common noun in this case. -- ₪   MIESIANIACAL  00:35, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland
Shouldn't the Prime ministers of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland or Southern Rhodesia be included in this list? There are images of Sir Godfrey Huggins and Sir Roy Welensky attending the Commonwealth Prime Ministers Conference with the Queen. If the Federation was still a commonwealth realm, doesn't it need to be inculded here?  Gurumoorthy Poochandhai  07:12, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland and Southern Rhodesia were not Commonwealth realms, which is the inclusion criteria for this list. We could discuss including colony and sub-national division Prime Ministers, but this would need to be a separate section. --LukeSurlt c 11:42, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
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Columns
Why have the columns been combined without any prior consensus? The other pages that list the prime ministers of monarchs don't do this. Khronicle I (talk) 14:05, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * 3rd party here. It's in keeping with BOLD, revert, discuss cycle that such a bold change is OK, but it's also OK to revert it if you disagree. --LukeSurlt c 16:02, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Okey dokes, thanks for the response. I'm going to revert the changes on the basis of how other politician lists are usually formatted, and that the previous version was neater and easier to read. Khronicle I (talk) 18:57, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree with you. Personally, the modification of the columns was a big mistake. Not only is it incompatible with the other pages of the PMs of monarchs, but it is very much an eyesore to look at. Addng my view just in case someone else doesn't support this. Thanks for reverting. Kirill.alx (talk) 08:32, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

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End of reign
Now that she has died, the distinction between former and current realms is less acute. Rather than updating if realms stop having Charles III as King, or freezing this in place with an awkward renaming of the title, I suggest merging the two lists of countries. --LukeSurlt c 19:26, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Weird style of listing
You would expect periods listed as the date from which a given PM served Her Majesty, until the date that PM ceased to serve Her Majesty.

For instance, take Eric Williams, PM of Trinidad & Tobago. For this article the fact he remained PM after 1 August 1976 is less relevant. The relevant time period is 31 August 1962 to 1 August 1976.

For Winston Churchill, likewise. The relevant period is 6 February 1952 to 5 April 1955. Don't make me have to work to find that out, and don't primarily present the period 26 October 1951 - 5 April 1955.

That period is "time in office as PM". This article is about "time serving the Queen".

The period 26 October 1951 - 5 April 1955 is relevant for an article such as, say, Winston Churchill. This article, however, is List of prime ministers of Elizabeth II.

CapnZapp (talk) 13:06, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * It's not a clear call. Do it by "time serving the Queen" and you risk misleading the reader that these PMs times in office were shorter than they actually were. Every table is prefixed with some prose about the first PM, and those that became republics are suffixed with prose about the final PMs. The current setup seems the least likely to confuse or mislead the reader. --LukeSurlt c 18:45, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

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Acting prime ministers
Certain cases of acting PMs are listed, but a great many are not. Whenever a PM goes on holiday, there's usually a person designated to act in their place. Their title during such a period is "acting prime minister" in addition to whatever other portfolios they may be holding.

What's the criterion for listing some cases but not others? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:41, 31 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The acting prime ministers listed are those persons who executed the functions of those offices when the office of Prime Minister in that country was vacant due to death or resignation. This is functionally different from deputising during an absence. These persons weren't "Prime Ministers of Elizabeth II" and they were not appointed by the Queen or her governers. However omitting them would create obvious gaps in the listings and the tables are better with their (un-numbered) inclusion. --LukeSurlt c 13:51, 1 August 2023 (UTC)