Talk:List of professional sports leagues

Cricket really?
Are all these cricket leagues really pro ??? Remember this article is about PROFESSIONAL sport leagues —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.206.109 (talk) 20:04, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Cricket in the Netherlands certainly isn't professional Cattivi (talk) 18:20, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, cricket has been fully proffessional for decades. All international test players are fully proffessional, as are all players in IPL, BigBash league, and several other leagues in the UK, Caribbean, South Africa etc. The top players earn millions of dollars a season in salary income alone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Striker161 (talk • contribs) 01:26, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Motorcycle Racing
There should probably be a category for motorcycle racing - MotoGP, World Super Bike, AMA, etc. Ken (talk) 07:33, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

German Football League
I've added the German Football League to the list as it is fully professional, as stated in this news story. I'm sure the Austrian League is also fully pro, but I haven't found any sources to back this up yet. Bettia  (bring on the trumpets!)  11:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * it's not a pro league (sometimes news stories elements are wrong) see the german page!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.216.89.205 (talk) 09:17, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Bangladesh football
Why is the Bangladeshi league professional? Any evidence for this outrageous claim? Spiderone (talk) 08:34, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Lack of references
There are virtually no references on this page. If you are claiming a sporting league is professional please add a reliable source.The Hack 07:56, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Ireland
There are very few professional clubs in any sport in Ireland, included Northern Ireland. Rugby League is mainly amateur, football has some pro or semi-pro clubs not many and as for cricket, there are no pro clubs. So these have been removed as the lead states "This list attempts to show those sports leagues for which all players and teams are paid to play", none meet the criteria and a quick glance over the article I doubt that these are the only ones that should be removed.Murry1975 (talk) 18:40, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The IFA Premiership and the League of Ireland are professional leagues. Hence I've restored them to the list. Mooretwin (talk) 16:10, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes I see mind you have you read the lead. This article needs either clearing out, or seperate them. The IFA Premiership isnt list as professional in by the football task force neother are the two LOI division, Wexford Youths as a fact are FULLY AMATEUR. Murry1975 (talk) 17:11, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know what being listed "as professional in by the football task force" means, but the IFA Premiership is fully professional. I think it is splitting hairs to exclude the League of Ireland based on one amateur team out of twenty-two(?) in the League as a whole. Essentially, it's a professional league. Mooretwin (talk) 23:28, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Its the criteria for inclusion of notability for sports people, they list professional leagues and niether are included, they even have a ref for the LOI. The article is poor as hell. Title pro leagues and then states semi-pro leagues , it could be divided into fully pro and semi. Not many teams are pro in the LOI, most now are semi with players picking to a living off of other work I dont think it should be included. Mind you who ever included the Irish RL and cricket should do a bit of research how many pro-cricketers in Ireland , seven with a central CUI contract, and as for RL the league is formative but not in anyway professional .Murry1975 (talk) 23:38, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Semi = pro. They get paid. The intro says the article covers semi-pro. Mooretwin (talk) 23:58, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Which is why its a poor article. Its like stating world cup winners and throwing in the finalists.Murry1975 (talk) 00:08, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Not really. Semi-pro, by definition, is pro. It's not as if any official distinction is made by the authorities. :Mooretwin (talk) 09:53, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Morning, semi-pro is "semi"-pro by definition, the players are otherwise employed. Have went to the sports task force, a quick look over the article -and comments here- would show it needs addressing not only in the Irish case.Murry1975 (talk) 10:20, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Professional means they get paid. Doesn't matter if they have other jobs too. Semi-pro is a subset of pro not something completely separate. Mooretwin (talk) 10:29, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

The point of the article has been diluted since its start point. The Irish leagues arent listed as pro by the football task force, having said that the link at the bottom of that page is to here. This article needs to follow the form like that page in my opinion, a list of fully pro leagues and a list of semi-pro leagues.Murry1975 (talk) 10:44, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The problem is, since there is no formal categorisation or designation of "pro" or "semi-pro", how do we distinguish between a "pro" league and a "semi-pro" league? It's not black and white. Many leagues, presumably, consist of both pro and semi-pro teams. Many league teams will have both pro and semi-pro players. Take the Conference in England, for example - most clubs are fully pro but some are not. How does it get classified? Mooretwin (talk) 11:02, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The football task force states where most teams are fully professional, the ability to play regularly against players and teams on a par with this. LOI clubs with say 6 players who are solely paid by the club dilute the professionalism of the league. As you said some Conference clubs are semi-pro but its not a pro league and teams promoted to the football league go fully professional and play against such.Murry1975 (talk) 16:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Who says it's not a "pro league"? There is no such designation. Mooretwin (talk) 16:32, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Who says? The definition at football task force labels it as such.Murry1975 (talk) 16:48, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * But on what basis do they label it as such? Mooretwin (talk) 22:32, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Read the articles and the talkpages, its what I do, lol. They have good criteria, the IFA prem and LOI are not included. This is the guideline criteria for inclusion of notability for footballers, thats how I came across it. I followed on from a redlink to a deleted player article to the football project and then onto this article. How you come across it?Murry1975 (talk) 22:48, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I see you've removed text "following further discussion on project football talkpage". Could you point me to where this discussion took place? Mooretwin (talk) 22:50, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Breifly here, but also evidence here in certain sections. Where have you found grounds to support bud? And why didnt you answer my question above? Thanks in advance.Murry1975 (talk) 10:25, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

MMA organisations - they don't seem to fit the definition of a league
I dispute that MMA sports fit the definition of a league, Sports league says "The common thread between all sports leagues is a structure that allows teams or individuals to compete against each other in a nonrandom order on a set schedule, usually called a "season," with the results of the individual competitions being used to name an overall champion." This is not the case in for example UFC as the "overall champion" is chosen based on defeating the current champion, it is possible for a UFC fighter to become champion in their first fight if that fight is with the current champion. The fighters do not fight each other in an rotation system to be named the overall champion, other MMA promoters in the list such as Bellator Fighting Championships use a knock-out system. Mt king  (edits)  01:11, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * You do raise some interesting points, particularly the lack of seasons and the technicality that one can become "champion" in their first fight. I'm not sure about boxing either. It isn't exactly the same as MMA, but still doesn't have seasons like the others.  They have organizations that sponsor and hold the events, which is part of the definition, but neither seems to meet the whole criteria for inclusion on this list.  Dennis Brown  -  2&cent;   &copy;  01:30, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I see that after I sent Mtking this link to show that MMA Organizations are indeed listed as sports leagues on Wikipedia, you are now trying to get that changed. How convenient. Another thing that is convenient is that you contacted Dennis Brown by email shortly before posting on this talk page. I have no idea what that email is about, but it is interesting that he posts here on the same talk page less than 20 minutes later. Gamezero  05  05:17, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Also... if you are looking for sources, how about this? http://mmajunkie.com/news/22821/ufc-earns-pro-sports-league-of-the-year-nomination-with-nba-nhl-nfl-mls.mma It states that the UFC is a finalist for "Professional Sports League of the Year" at the 2011 Sports Business Awards.
 * Or here:
 * http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/UFC-Sponsor-AnheuserBusch-Expresses-Displeasure-Over-Recent-Fighter-Comments-42217
 * The statement from the UFC states:
 * "As an organization, we are progressive in social media and, unlike most other sports leagues, we encourage our athletes to engage online." Gamezero  05  05:30, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * My concern isn't the use of the word "League" in sources, it is whether or not it fits the criteria we have laid out here in this list. Words mean different things to different people, which is why most lists labor to define the usage for that particular list.  Based on the narrower definition used by this list, the two would seem to not qualify.  When determining what fits into the list, we are forced to consider the full definition of the List as it is defined in the article itself, not Webster's.   Dennis Brown  -  2&cent;   &copy;  14:04, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Then why does Mtking want a source on the article page to prove that MMA has leagues? What good is asking for a source if you just ignore that and the only thing you want to go by is what it says already on Wikipedia? In my opinion, the Wikipedia definition is wide open for interpretation. Therefore, one must use outside sources to help make their case. So considering the UFC has been nominated for an award for "best professional sports league", and the UFC considers themselves a sports league, why would you still dispute it? Gamezero  05  16:39, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I have no dog in the MMA fight going on here on Wikipedia, but I agree that MMA and boxing are not leagues. I would say a league is considered something that is a team sport whereby team a competes against team b and standings are produced in which at the end of the season a champion is declared. I'd also consider eliminating tennis, golf and bowling from this list as well. Boxing would only stay in a small sense, I believe there is one boxing promotion that organizes itself in the same way as the NHL or NFL does called World Series Boxing. That would be the only boxing organization that would make the list the way I would structure this. If there is a MMA promotion that is similar to this or Real Pro Wrestling those would make this list. Otherwise, MMA is off the list, as is boxing and any other individual sports. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 00:09, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Whatever decision is made, it should apply to boxing as well. Both sports are organized in pretty much the same way. Evenfiel (talk) 04:09, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * If MMA doesn't fit in this page then neither do Golf (A sports league is a professional body that governs the competition of its teams....TEAMS, not individual athletes) Tennis, Auto Racing, Cycling, Video Gaming, Motorcycle racing, Speedway, Tennis (which it actually isn't listed on here).
 * Exactly, only World Team Tennis would fit for tennis. Golf would not either outside of the Ryder Cup and few other tournaments like this, however I'm not sure those tournaments go on long enough to qualify and there is no team golf leagues. Auto racing would qualify as there are team championships awarded, NASCAR is about the only major auto racing organization that doesn't award a team championship. Motorcycle racing and cycling may qualify this way as well, but I don't follow them closely enough to know for sure. Video gaming doesn't qualify as it isn't a sport. I believe speedway is actually a team sports in Europe, so it may qualify. But for all of these sports where prize money is the only money awarded, you may have an issue whether they are professional in nature as some may not get paid if they fail to make a certain result. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 19:53, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * These are all individual sports with set schedules that are more "organizations" than leagues but for all intents and purposes, they do the same exact thing. This is splitting hairs for the sake of splitting hairs.--Kykykykykyky (talk) 05:14, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Shootmaster, you are wrong. Boxing and MMA are completely different in their organization. Boxing is governed by different organizations. They have the WBO, IBF, IBO, etc. Those organizations each have their own championships. The fighters are independent contractors who are free to fight for the WBO title, the IBO title, etc. One boxer can hold several titles in several different organizations. You will hear them announce a fighter as the current IBO welterweight world champion and the current WBO welterweight world champion. And those fighters belong to a promotion. For example, a fighter might fight for Golden Boy promotions who puts on the show for the WBO championship. But in MMA, it isn't like that. Each promotion is it's own organization with it's own titles. For example, if you are an MMA fighter, you pick which "league" you fight in. If you sign with the UFC, you are part of the UFC. You fight in the UFC against other UFC fighters for a UFC championship belt. If you sign with Strikeforce, you fight for Strikeforce against other Strikeforce fighters for a Strikeforce belt.

So not only are the two sports set up completely differently, but the UFC is way more like a traditional "league" than boxing is. In fact, to say the UFC isn't a league is really just splitting hairs. There is really no difference between the UFC and any other "league" out there. Boxing is way different, though. Gamezero 05  17:38, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * With UFC it does not follow a season and a champion is awarded sporadically, not at the end of the season. What I meant is that the format of their sport is similar, both boxing and MMA (and pro wrestling to an extent) hold pay per view events that are sporadically scheduled and a fighter in their first match could win the championship. As well, to win the championship you do not have to face every other fighter in your promotion to be declared the champion, you only have to face one. It would be as if the San Francisco 49ers only having to beat the New York Giants in September to become Super Bowl champion. This is why I'd say MMA does not qualify. Like I say if MMA organized itself with the same format as say the now defunct Real Pro Wrestling or World Series Boxing they would qualify. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 19:53, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

I guess the other way to solve this issue is to move this page to List of professional sports organizations thus not falling into the problem of "what is a league?". Then you would only have to deal with what qualifies as professional and what is a sport. I'm fairly certain that no one would question anything that is currently on this page, aside from video gaming, if this was what this page was moved to. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 19:59, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia's own definition: "League is a term commonly used to describe a group of sports teams or individual athletes that compete against each other in a specific sport." Are UFC fighters a group of individual athletes? Yes. Do they compete against each other in a specific sport? Yes. Therefore, it is a sports league. Not-to-mention, the UFC was nominated for "Pro Sports League of The Year" along with the NBA, NHL, NFL, and MLS at the 2011 Sports Business Awards. The UFC also refers to itself as a sports league. There is really no good argument against it being such. Like I said, you can say boxing is not a "sports league" because each boxer is an individual contractor that doesn't belong to any "league". But MMA is different. The UFC is a league in the sport of Mixed Martial Arts. The UFC competes with other companies like Bellator just like the NFL competed with the AFL or now the USFL or CFL. You also make the point that fighters in the UFC don't have to fight every fighter in order to become champion. Well it is the same in any sport. The Giants didn't have to beat every team in the NFL in order to become Super Bowl champion. Nobody plays every single team. So that argument you made is irrelevant. Gamezero  05  21:46, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yet again we have an MMA fan selectively quoting text, if Gamezero05 would care to read on (and at the risk of repeating what I said at the top of this thread) Sports league says "The common thread between all sports leagues is a structure that allows teams or individuals to compete against each other in a nonrandom order on a set schedule, usually called a "season," with the results of the individual competitions being used to name an overall champion." The key here is that a league's champion is selected once per season and the results of all the games combined (in a pre-determined way) towards who is named as the champion. There are a number of specific ways that can happen, for example the more traditional win-loss record as used by European Soccer league's, a regional system followed by a knock-out used for example in MLB or the UEFA Champions League or a traditional win-loss league followed by a top 4 or 8 knock-out such as the AFL use.
 * In the case of MMA or Boxing the champion in nearly all case is the person who beat the last champion (the only exception being when the champion position is vacated then a fight is held between tow people the promoter feels are the best). Mt  king  (edits)  22:46, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey buddy... you got a source for that? Gamezero  05  23:12, 3 June 2012 (UTC)


 * To clarify, that whole page has only 3 sources... and those 3 sources pertain to about 2% of that entire article. I can just as easily go add "mixed martial arts is a sports league" without sourcing it. Would you take that as fact? Plus, the definition at the top of the article and the definition you gave contradict each other. That article needs plenty more sources before you can use it to support your argument. Gamezero  05  23:17, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I have already provided several sources that prove the UFC is a sports league. Where are your sources to tell me I'm wrong? Gamezero  05  23:19, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Of course I can, however I see little purpose as you won't accept it. In a paper called "The Organization of Sports Leagues" written by Stanford University and published in the Oxford Review of Economic Policy (see here) it says "A league can adopt two types of schedules: a round-robin or an elimination tournament." about the round-robin format it says "the league creates a schedule of games for a championship season for each team, and every team plays a predetermined number of games against other league members.  The champion is determined by aggregating the results of all matches" it goes on "in an elimination tournament, teams are dropped from the schedule after losing a certain number of games, usually one (single elimination) or two (double elimination)." So since MMA does not use a fixed schedule nor either format and is a winner takes all sport (i.e. the current champion is the person who beat the last champion) with no fixed period between the selection of a new champion it should not be included in a list of leagues. Mt king  (edits)  00:13, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I can't view the whole article because it appears you have to pay to read it. However, round-robin and single and double elimination is how TOURNAMENTS are formed. Trust me. I've played in countless baseball, basketball, wrestling, and brazilian jiu jitsu tournaments that implement either round robin or single / double elimination formats. It has nothing to do with a sports league. It is how tournaments are structured. So if that is your "source", how do you explain the basketball and baseball playoffs which each implement a 7 game series? Your source doesn't really have anything to do with what a league is. All it is really talking about is different ways to structure a tournament. Gamezero  05  05:02, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Since this is an argument that will pit MMA fans against non-MMA fans and me which has no dog in this fight. I say we take this over to WP:Sports to have the sports community as a whole get in this one. I still think the easiest solution to this is to move the page to professional sports organizations, which I can't see anyone objecting to the IBO, UFC or IndyCar as being. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 02:01, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It really isn't MMA vs. non-MMA fans. I am a sports fan as a whole. I like a ton of sports. Baseball, basketball, football, MMA, boxing, hockey, wrestling, soccer, golf, etc. Pretty much everything. I know a sports league when I see one. I'd say it is a great idea to change the name to list of professional sports organizations... not because of the MMA debate, but more-so because it is more open-ended and more things may be included. Gamezero  05  05:08, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

"League is a term commonly used to describe a group of sports teams or individual athletes that compete against each other in a specific sport." Yep, it's a league. BearMan998 (talk) 02:00, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh !!!! What a surprise, a MMA SPA selectively quoting, you missed off the bit that says "in a nonrandom order on a set schedule, usually called a "season," with the results of the individual competitions being used to name an overall champion.". MMA and Boxing are winner takes all sports, they are not leagues. Mt  king  (edits)
 * "in a nonrandom order on a set schedule, usually called a "season," with the results of the individual competitions being used to name an overall champion.". OK - what is your point in selecting this quote? UFC athletes fight in nonrandom order and the results of those competitions are used to determine an overall champion in each weight class. I'm guessing then you are arguing about the "season" part. Well, it says 'usually' which does not imply that it's always the case. BearMan998 (talk) 02:33, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move. Cúchullain t/ c 14:35, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

List of professional sports leagues → List of professional sports organizations – As we are seeing with the discussion regarding the MMA organizations, it is causing this page to be less than inclusive. The simplest way to solve this issue is to move the page to this name and thus, what is a league, ceases to be a problem. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 02:18, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.


 * Support As per the rationale I listed above. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 02:18, 4 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Support Organizations are all encompassing which seems to better fit the idea behind what this article is far better than splitting up the leagues and non-leagues.--Kykykykykyky (talk) 04:39, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Support as "League" does have a very different meaning, which itself may vary from country to country. "Organizations" is a better, more generic term that allows more inclusion, without forcing the "league" definitions on the individually listed sports themselves.   Dennis Brown  -  2&cent;   &copy;  12:52, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose; "organizations" is far too broad and could encompass advocacy organizations, charitable organizations, and other possibilities beyond leagues and governing organizations. Powers T 22:49, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * List of sports governing bodies? Dennis Brown  -  2&cent;   &copy;  23:11, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Also too broad. Perhaps "professional sports governing bodies".  Powers T 17:01, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Long, but accurate. I would support it.  That would allow it to include all the pro sports, including non-"leagues" and still differentiate it from amateur, which would and should be a different list.  This would solve several issues, and at a glace, be ok with WP:MOS.   Dennis Brown  -  2&cent;   &copy;  22:22, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * If you want to have a "list of sports governing bodies", why can't we just create that as a separate article and leave this article for the "list of professional sports leagues"? 90.200.179.217 (talk) 17:37, 7 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose as this nomination appears to an attempt to discredit the UFC as a sports league despite the fact that it matches the characteristics of a sports league. BearMan998 (talk) 03:16, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. &#9733;&#9734; DUCK IS JAMMMY &#9734;&#9733; 09:16, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Support However, I'd like to make it perfectly clear that I do not support it BECAUSE of the MMA discussion we have been having. I only support it because I feel it is a more broad term and more sports may be included. It is a better name for the article. And to be even more clear, I feel MMA would be included whether this article is named "List of professional sports organizations" OR "list of professional sports leagues". Gamezero 05  20:02, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Just because we have a disagreement over defining MMA organizations as sports leagues, it should not mean that logically we should change the definition of "sports league" just to fit them in. I might be wrong but I am not aware of any Wikipedia policy that says we have to be "inclusive". If MMA does not fit the rough definition of a league then we should not include it "period". As it is, the definition in this article is not strictly correct where it says that sports leagues "govern the competition of its teams". There are some leagues which are not governing bodies e.g. the "English" Premier League which is governed by the separate "English" Football Association. The same applies to most association football leagues. Also the term "professional sports organization" could easily apply to the "English" Professional Footballers' Association which is not a league but a trade union that represents association footballers. 90.200.179.217 (talk) 21:52, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I get your logic, but I think this article would better serve the reader if it had all governing bodies, whether the sport was officially a "league" or not. What they do have in common is that they are sports, they have governing bodies, thus organized in some way.  A single place to have all the various sports makes sense, and is what this article started out to be.  We aren't changing the scope of the List in any way, only wanting to change the name to include what is already here, without quarreling about the legal definition of terms.  And league does have a very narrow definition, so removing that word makes sense on many levels. Your point was covered by changing to "governing bodies" above.  Dennis Brown  -  2&cent;   &copy;  22:28, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * No offence but your last sentence suggests to me that you didn't understand my point about association football. In North America the four major "sports leagues" are each a combination of governing body and sports league. However association football is governed by a pyramid of "football associations" with FIFA at the top followed by continental and national associations. The actual games are played within leagues that don't actually make the rules for the sport. So, a "list of professional sports governing bodies" would mean that we have to remove most of the association football leagues because they are not sports governing bodies. Also I understand what you are trying to do - effectively a single location to list professional sports "bodies" but by doing so we run the risk of creating "too general or too broad" a list as per WP:SALAT. 90.200.179.217 (talk) 23:02, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The thing with soccer governing bodies like the Canadian Soccer Association is that while they are sports organizations, they are not fully professional. They encompass things that are not professional like youth soccer etc. so unless this page were to drop professional from the title it would easily exclude those governing bodies. Technically, the big four leagues in North America, while they are independent of the governing bodies, do in a sense answer to their versions of the international bodies. Football probably is the one that is farthest from this. In hockey, the National Hockey League works with the International Ice Hockey Federation and the national bodies to conduct international tournaments.


 * As far as my idea to be inclusive is to nip the MMA battle on this page in the bud. I'm not sure if you've seen the battle brewing over MMA articles, but I was hoping to prevent that war from making this page their next battleground. Think of this as my version of the Dayton Accord. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 00:44, 7 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. This proposal would alter the scope of the list and, IMO, not for the better. "Origanisation" is not the way to go because the New York Giants, Manchester United F.C. and Melbourne Football Club are all technically professional sports organisations. Similarly, although "governing bodies" looks good at first glance (would work for most North American and Australian sports leagues I'm aware of), it would not work for soccer/football leagues. Jenks24 (talk) 09:43, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Jenks. Apples and oranges. --BDD (talk) 19:53, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
Comment regarding Bearman's vote. I am not attempting to do that, what I am attempting to do is to end the fight. By moving the page, there is no way anyone would have any issue with calling MMA promotions as a professional sports organization. This whole MMA issue seems to be turning into a huge fight between entrenched factions, the simplest thing is to move this page and the whole confusion about what is a league disappears. Quite frankly, by moving this the PGA, LPGA, WTA, ATP etc. could be on this page as well. This is more about being inclusive of all professional sports organization instead of trying to draw a line where certain ones are excluded. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 03:23, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree and would add that the MMA discussion simply has shown there is a flaw in the current naming scheme, giving good reason to consider a rename, to prevent issues. What started the discussion doesn't change the fact that "league" is used here as a generic term, when in fact it is quite specific.  Dennis Brown  -  2&cent;   &copy;  11:18, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that if do decide to rename, then rather than using "league", "organization" or other vague terms, it would be better to rename to List of professional sports competitions, which would cover MMA and the golfing ones too. 90.200.179.217 (talk) 21:57, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * That name sounds like events rather than organizations, however, so I wouldn't be able to support that.  Dennis Brown  -  2&cent;   &copy;  22:18, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Well we have a list of association football competitions which lists notable football leagues and knockout tournaments, so I would have to disagree that the word "competition" would necessarily suggest events. 90.200.179.217 (talk) 23:20, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think we have a North American versus European definition on this one. At least in North American useage competition would mean any sort of tournament or event. For instance the Indianapolis 500 is a auto racing competition which is part of the IndyCar Series, a professional sports organization. Also by adding competitions to this you would cause the addition of things like the FA Cup which are simply a knock-out tournament and in no way anything more than a tournament. I realize soccer is different compared to most other sports in that they have parallel tournaments for clubs that include teams that are not part of their league. But I'm thinking that would cause things like the Olympics to end up on this list too. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 00:38, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think you guys may be coming to the realization that "league" is actually the correct term for this article. Gamezero  05  16:55, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

What about Track & Field / Cross Country Running (Athletics)
I was looking for other Track and Field professional leagues besides the Samsung Diamond league and came across this page.

I couldn't see any listed, nor did I even see Diamond League listed.

Track and Field should be a section. And the Samsung Diamond League should be included as well. (diamondleague.com) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.224.218.113 (talk) 21:52, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Cleanup needed in the basketballs
In the basketball section there is a league listed:

NBA Summer Pro League

which has no page--but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Summer_League sure looks like the right page. Since I'm not sure what to do about conflicting names I'll leave this for someone more versed in the ways of Wikipedia to fix. Loren Pechtel (talk) 00:22, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Cleanup needed in rugby
NRLUS redirects to American National Rugby League.

It doesn't make sense to have two names here that lead to the same page but I don't know what should be done to fix it. Loren Pechtel (talk) 19:59, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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I have just modified 6 external links on List of professional sports leagues. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070406235327/http://www.kbl.or.kr/ to http://www.kbl.or.kr/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131413180900/http://www.cfl.ca/ to https://www.cfl.ca/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130518031745/http://www.americanfencingleague.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page to http://www.americanfencingleague.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
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Merge proposal June 2018
I propose to merge List of professional sports leagues by country here. This article is already showing the countries. A sortable table will allow sorting by either sport or country, which will make the "...by country" article redundant. --  P 1 9 9  ✉ 14:17, 20 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Regarding "Merge": Given there is not a list that would allow sorting by sport or country, the article List of professional sports leagues by country is not redundant, and there should not be a merger of these articles until such a table is created, if indeed it is at all. The article only needs expansion, and aide with that would be much appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Knowledgio (talk • contribs) 04:51, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * So, looks like you wouldn't oppose if such a sortable table is indeed created. I will create it in a few weeks, once enough time has passed for other comments in this discussion. --  P 1 9 9  ✉ 15:07, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Support merge. P199, it looks like there are no objections (subject to the existence of sortable lists) over more than a year. Klbrain (talk) 20:56, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Developmental Football International (DFI)
New sports (American football) league launched in Aug 2018, it has four teams in Cal. and four others in the Eastern US. Not sure if it'll last over one season, but here's their web site. https://www.developmentalfootball.com/ 12.218.47.124 (talk) 05:44, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Changing the list to a sortable table
I recently edited this article by removing the entire list and replacing it with a sortable table. It has since been undone on the grounds that it contains few entries. However, since the idea has been appreciated, I would recommend that instead of removing the edit, the table was expanded by further editing to feature as many, if not more entries in the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThompsonJT (talk • contribs) 09:53, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Full page cleanup suggestions?
Hello everyone,

I know this has been talked about in the past but it should be raised again - this page is a mess:

- The formatting is inconsistent for every sport. - Many of the sections contain inaccurate information, including extinct leagues. - Some of the sports here don't necessarily have "leagues" but "tournaments", such as MMA and MOST of boxing and tennis.

I am prepared to overhaul the page completely to give it a consistent format and up-to-date information for every section, however I would like some advice and recommendations from people here (especially from admins) for how to proceed.

I have a few questions concerning the above:

- Which format do you think is the best to adopt (I'm a little biased towards the format I used for both rugby codes so I would like other opinions too)? - Which sports should be omitted from the list due to having too many leagues? Currently, this applies to association football and basketball, although I would add auto racing and esports to this list. - Should tournaments and organisations not in a traditional league format (e.g. UFC) be included in the list or removed? - When it comes to women's sports, should they be given their own subsection for each sport or be included in the men's section for each league system?

Many thanks, ATrueCelt (talk) 12:01, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

American MLB Professionals
While I can understand why Minor League Baseball technically could be classified as semi-pro, it certainly isn't a professional league. The professional league by all accounts is the MLB. I do concede to the idea it is worth mentioning MILB, I also feel it should not be mentioned as a professional league. I submit that simply being paid is not the only criteria. If you are part of a league that has a higher tier so to speak, the tier at the highest should be labelled as the professional league. This is also why the NBA G league is not a professional league. In my opinion, MILB and the G League are as much professional sports as NCAA or exhibition teams like The Globetrotters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redsoxrox53 (talk • contribs) 02:23, 30 December 2021 (UTC)