Talk:List of rampage killers/Archive 1

Peter Okullo
If the article at Daily Monitor is correct, shouldn't Okullo be removed from the list? (Lord Gøn (talk) 13:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)) Ok, I'll remove him now. (Lord Gøn (talk) 13:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC))
 * Yes, judging from the given article he shouldn't be there. (Lord Gøn (talk) 13:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC))
 * Why? Are 12 people dead not mass murdery enough for you? (Lord Gøn (talk) 13:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC))
 * Read the article stoopid! It wasn't him who shot the IDPs, but those who tried to catch him. According to the article we can only be sure that he killed one person. (Lord Gøn (talk) 13:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC))
 * I vote for removing. (Lord Gøn (talk) 13:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC))
 * Me, too (Lord Gøn (talk) 13:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC))

Stephanus Swart
Howdy. Just figured you might want to know about this fellow []. This is a really interesting list, I made a similar one myself, and all my friends found it quite morbid that I'd be categorizing these people. Overall, I find stuff like this incredibly fascinating.

I also noticed that John List was absent from the list. He killed 5 of his family back in '71 and managed to escape and lead a normal life for nearly 20 years!!

If I run across anyone else that can be added, I'll let you know.Longevitymonger (talk) 00:25, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * So, Swart is that guys name? Thanks a lot. I've just added him yesterday, but wasn't able to find his name, so I had to include him as an unknown farmer. He also killed more than the six the New York Times article stated. And I'm pretty sure you are not alone with your fascination for stuff like this. All those true crime books and websites prove my point. Also there are quite a few similar, though less complete lists like this one on the internet, and to be honest I've pilfered them wherever it was possible. Of John List I know of course, it's just that there are so many people out there, who have killed a few that I thought it was necessary to draw a line somewhere. And this limit, as stated in the introductory part, was six dead or a double digit number of dead plus injured (excluding the perpetrators). Truth is that I have found almost three dozen cases of family murder alone with five dead, without doing a lot of research, so I left them out to keep the overall number down. Of course these rules are not cast in stone and could be changed anytime, but the list would grow quite a lot if we'd do. Even in the current form it is getting obnoxiously long and I thought about pushing the limit upwards. Anyway, every form of help is always welcome, so if you find something suitable for this list go ahead and tell me, or you could do me a favour, relieve me of some work and include it yourself. :) (Lord Gøn (talk) 15:18, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

More Madmen

 * March 12, 1976 -- (6 killed)-- Trevose, Pennsylvania: George Geschwendt shot and killed six members of the Abt family. []
 * Feb. 7, 2008 -- Kirkwood City Council shooting: Charles Lee "Cookie" Thornton went on a shooting rampage at a public meeting in the city hall, leaving five people dead and two others injured.
 * Feb. 12, 2007 -- Salt Lake City, Utah: Sulejman Talovic shot five people to death and wounded four others at a Trolley Square shopping mall in Salt Lake City before being fatally shot by police.
 * April 10, 2002 -- Dover Township, New Jersey: police officer Edward Lutes killed himself after shooting to death five people and wounding his boss. []
 * Nov. 1, 1991 -- Iowa City, Iowa: Gang Lu, a physics student at the University of Iowa, shot and killed four faculty members and a student and paralyzed another before shooting himself.
 * May 26, 1896 -- Campbell, California: James Dunham using an axe and firearms, killed his wife, her family, and two of that family's servants. []Longevitymonger (talk) 19:23, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Unknowns
I have a problem with the number of entires with "unknown" in the name column. By its title, this list is first and foremost about the person who committed the crime, not the crime itself. If it is not known who the mass murderer or spree killer is, should it really be included on the list? Blueboar (talk) 19:35, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yikes... looking at this further, is anyone maintaining it? It is supposed to be listed according to number of victims... and that is definitely NOT the case currently.  I am going to have to do some serious clean up and reoganization.  Help would be appreciated. Blueboar (talk) 19:42, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't see why those incidents, where the name of the perpetrator is not available due to incomplete news reports, should not be included. Ok, the title of the article might suggest that it's mostly about the perpetrators themselves, though in my eyes it is more about the incidents than the people who committed them, so we could discuss about changing the title, but removing the "unknowns" would make the list even more incomplete than it is already. So I think they should remain where they are. And by the way, the list is consistently sorted by the number of victims. Not the total number, but the number of dead. So, to avoid further confusion in the future, I guess we could retitle it to List of mass murders and spree killings by death toll or something like that. (Lord Gøn (talk) 20:06, 27 August 2008 (UTC))
 * Yes, renaming would clarify things. Lists should be named in a way that clearly and umabiguously tells the reader what the list is about.  At the moment, it should be about the perpetrators, not the incidents.  If you want it the other way around, you would indeed need to change the name.  However, I do need to interject a word of caution.  I realize that the there are some key differences, but your proposed title sounds an awful lot like that of the old "List of Massacres" article... which was a constent POV magnet and bone of contention.  That article was only saved from AfD by a compromise that severely narrowed its scope and inclusion criteria.  I suspect that this article will, if renamed have similar problems... I strongly suggest that you avoid a almost certain future AfD debate by clearly defining what constitutes a "Mass murder" or "killing spree", outlining very firm and clear inclusion criteria, and demanding reliable sourcing at the time of addition. Blueboar (talk) 20:56, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, what about the title List of mass murders and spree killings perpetrated by individuals, where every victim is targeted seperately, with at least six dead or a total of ten victims (excl. perpetrators), sorted by death toll. This would describe acurately what this list is about, but could anyone handle this monstrosity? I begin to feel sorry that the English vocabulary is lacking a word describing these people. "Mass murderer" is to broad, spree killer to narrow. Any suggestions for a better title? (Lord Gøn (talk) 21:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC))

Remove all unknown entries and if this list is put up for an AfD again let me know because I think it should be deleted, it definitely falls foul of WP:NOT "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. It is a POV nightmare, what about lawful combatants and state executioners. For example does one include incidents like Bloody Sunday (yes it is a disambiguation  page -- take you pick). The trouble one runs into with civil wars is that usually at the end of them there has  to be legislation like the Indemnity and Oblivion Act to sort out the legality of the acts on both sides, so conflicts that are ongoing are wide open to POV interpretations. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 11:38, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but I cannot see where this list violates the rules against indiscriminate collection of information. This list is neither a statistic, nor does it contain news reports of unnotable events. Or is a mall shooting in Namibia not notable enough to get mentioned in a list, while the same happening in the US deserves its own article, simply because the former is not widely reported in western media, while they make a lot of fuss about the latter? And this list is not a "POV nightmare". Is the concept behind this list so complicated that no one understands it? I thought that it is quite easy to grasp that it is about people like James Oliver Huberty or Cho Seung-Hui, which means people running amok and guys going on a shooting spree or the like, and that lawful combatants or state executioners have no place in it. So, even after a quick scan it is easy to see that none of the Bloody Sunday incidents must be mentioned here. I really have to ask myself if anyone even reads the introduction to this list, as it makes, at least in my eyes, quite clear what is allowed to be included and what not. (Lord Gøn (talk) 13:50, 28 August 2008 (UTC))
 * Hmmm... I don't think the introdcution does make it clear. You have to read the introduction carefully to figure out what is acceptable and what is not... to be honest, it is a bit long and rambling.  Perhaps it could be restated in briefer terms? Blueboar (talk) 14:01, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I'll try to rework it to make things more clearly understandable, though this might take some time, and I wouldn't bet that it will result in a shorter version. (Lord Gøn (talk) 15:38, 28 August 2008 (UTC))


 * What is murder? User:Lord Gøn, you have not answered the question about combat killings and civil wars. It is a POV nightmare for the same reason that the word terrorism is a POV nightmare. You may well be able to distinguish what is a murder and a legal killing in a stable state. But in a state suffering political destabilisation then it becomes much more difficult to define what is a lawful killing and what is a murder.


 * Why make a distinction in the way that people kill, in what way is killing with a knife of a gun different from killing with poison or a bomb. What if the person uses a large gun that fires shells, is there a technical limit on the size of the round? If not then what is the difference between a killing using a hand grenade and killing using a rocket-propelled grenade?


 * The further that one goes back in history one goes the more complicated this gets. Did you realise that Clan Campbell and Clan Donald fought a clan war that went on for hundreds of years? Can such killings be included? A very common reason for mass killing is vendetta and honour killings, sometimes these are seen as murder sometimes they are not, but one gets into complicated semantics about the sate monopoly on lawful executions and is it legitimate argument if the state is not seen as as entity by a large portion of the population. Also What about the mass killings that take place during military occupations are they mass murders or mass killings?


 * User:Lord Gøn all in all I do not see how this list can ever be anything but OR and POV. Not because events and people at the centre of the list would not show up in all such lists but because of the difficulties of defining at the margins what can and can not be in this list. The is exactly the same problem that the article List of massacres suffered from before it was renamed to List of events named massacres. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 15:48, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I see the problem, though I think it mostly comes from the fact that the English language has no adequate word to describe those people I mean. The concept this list is based on derives mostly from the German word "Amokläufer" which literally means "person running amok". If you want to translate it into English though, you'll either end up with "mass murderer" or "spree killer", but neither of those two describes it very well, so you have to deal with words that either are not nearly exact enough or much to narrow in their scope. "Rampage killer" might fit best.
 * The thing is, that the word "Amokläufer" would automatically exclude every murder committed in any form of combat situation, gang wars, vendettas, felony related mass murders, killings by mobs on a rampage, mass murders committed by the military or terrorists/freedom fighters, clan wars etc. It would also exlcude arsons, poisonings or bombings, because you cannot run amok with fire, poison or a bomb. The killing in short succession by your own hand without obvious motivation is essential here. On the other hand school shootings or shooting/stabbing sprees would be included.
 * It's really not that difficult to figure out which incidents would be allowed and which not. The problem is how do you explain it? Although the US-media constantly report about people going postal, "pulling a Columbine" or whatever, in the United States quite extensively, and compare them to previous similar incidents, thus giving the impression that they "belong together", they failed so far to come up with an overarching term for them. So, from my point of view, the criteria for inclusion are quite obvious and strict. The issue I am facing is the lack of an exact English word to describe what this list is about.(Lord Gøn (talk) 17:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC))


 * "person[s] running amok", is an accurate description of mob behaviour (for example look at the Gordon Riots, and of first the behaviour of the rioters and then the army that came in to put down the riots). An army is in many respects an organised mob. When attacking soldiers frequently get their blood up and make frenzied attacks, and in this state they often do things that they would not do in "cold blood". This is also true for civilians, hence the term "cold blooded murder". Two other related words are blood-lust, "lust for the shedding of blood" and berserk "frenzied, furiously or madly violent; esp. in phr. to go berserk." but these can be used for both soldiers and civilians. The trouble that you have with all these phrases is that as they are not legal phrases there is no precise definition for them, so any such list is bound to have POV problems, particularly with politically motivated attacks, as different editors will consider different actions to be persons running amok. You will need to come up with a precise definition that can be supported by reliable sources if this list is to be useful. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 20:05, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Major Change
Just a suggestion: Get rid of categories. It makes sense when you create the article, but is confusing to anyone trying to use it. Just plain list by number.24.10.110.171 (talk) 16:49, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think in a list of that size categorisation is almost essential, because it makes navigation much easier, and it's also a cheap way to give a little bit of extra information. If the categories were to be removed the result would be an unsightly block of text and numbers, without improving the usability of the list. How the categories could contribute to confuse users I don't understand. In my eyes they are quite self-explaining. (Lord Gøn (talk) 21:37, 19 October 2008 (UTC))

Weapon list
This may take a lot of time to revamp, but I think having a weapons box in there would be very relevant and informative to be integrated with the list. If this is a list of mass murderers and spree killers, being informed of what weapon they used to commit that is important. {Tim C} 07:49, 26 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyanidethistles (talk • contribs)
 * When starting the article I had the intention to do just that, include information about the weapons used, but mostly it is nearly impossible to find out something that is beyond vague and in some cases, like Whitman's the list of weaponry would be pretty long, thus I decided not to include it. I think it's better to put things like that into the cases' atricles, if enough information is available, or write a little summary that is shown in the reference section, which I do sometimes. That way the list looks more tidy, imho. (Lord Gøn (talk) 23:41, 26 October 2008 (UTC))

You're right about that, and a lot of cases won't have the exact gun or weapon identified, other than it being "shotgun." It was a suggestion, and I can see cons from it other than the pros. Not related to the weapon list, but I'll gladly help out with this article. If you think you have the ambition to get this list to the featured lists as a candidate, I can see it because a lot of effort was put into this list, despite the fact that it may remain incomplete due to the numbers of cases out there, even from the ancient times. {Tim C} 00:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh, if this list ever gets featured status I would be very surprised. I assume the subject alone would prevent that from ever happening. Though you're right, I've definitely put a lot of time into this list, maybe more than is good. It already haunts me in my dreams. But as I've started this I feel a weird duty to get the best out of it as possible. Anyway, I guess this is as worse a way to waste your time as anything else, thus could as well try to get it featured. Though a lot of work has to be done, still, to have even the slightest chance. (Lord Gøn (talk) 00:47, 28 October 2008 (UTC))

Exactly. The list may always remain as a dynamic list seeing as there are cases out there that are unreported, and this list seems to have the purpose of displaying attacks that are known to man via online services. The only way to go further into this is to look at old news archives or look through federal and state records of such incidents. So unfortunately this list isn't the kind of list that may be accepted in the featured lists, but for the effort that you put in here, I think you deserve it. It's a very helpful list and most of the information would take weeks for one to research it. {Tim C} 03:49, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I edited the article to include full names of type of weapons used (Firearms, Melee Weapons, and Other Weapons) instead of ambiguous single characters, and it got changed back because it made the page "too wide." Really? It's so confusing the way it is. If the few pixels the new widened column made it "too wide", why is it included at all? It's very confusing to people who don't scroll down to the bottom of the article first. And that'll be by mere chance, because the name of the column is W which is its self very confusing. I worked really hard to edit the article (can't use a simple search and replace on single letters) and I'm irritated my work would be undone over such a petty and subjective issue. Damienotis (talk) 05:08, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Let's get rid of the numbers on the left
I wanted to add a guy who killed 8 at a Russian submarine base, but there's no way I'm going to rewrite all the numbers on the left (if I add him at no. 29 or whatever, I have to rewrite all the numbers after him). After all, we don't care who is at no. 1, 10 or 20 - we just care how many were killed/injured. Malick78 (talk) 08:50, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Alexander Kuzminykh is already added here. About the numbers, well, you are right, it is quite  annoying to fix them every time you add something, so it is very likely that they'll be removed at some point. (Lord Gøn (talk) 16:09, 11 November 2008 (UTC))
 * Well, as for now I'm going to keep the numbers, as long as there are not more people complaining about them, because of the possibility to put sortable lists back into their original state. And I really like the boxed look they create. If anyone wants to add something, simply ignore the numbers, I'll fix them later. (Lord Gøn (talk) 22:04, 16 November 2008 (UTC))
 * I second this, as explained above. Also, the title is no longer referring to the number of victims, so it seems unneseccary and frankly unethical. 94.134.205.218 (talk)

Hide references
As the list of references is pretty long, would anyone mind if I'd hide them to cut the length of the page down? (Lord Gøn (talk) 01:21, 14 November 2008 (UTC))

Ronald DeFeo, Jr. - Amityville
Ronald DeFeo, Jr., killed six members of his family: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_DeFeo,_Jr.

--Libraryfan11 (talk) 06:21, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Page size
Ok, I guess everyone can see that this list is much too large. When I'm done with making all lists sortable it will be like 300k bytes, which I think is totally unacceptable. So, I will have to do some culling. If someone has a suggestion on how this circumcision shall be performed, state your opinion here. Otherwise I will just do what I deem acceptable. (Lord Gøn (talk) 18:57, 9 January 2009 (UTC))
 * Easy downsizing first, I'll remove every incident with more than one perpetrator in the "Other notable incidents" section. (Lord Gøn (talk) 23:52, 9 January 2009 (UTC))
 * Next step, getting rid of some incidents with a rather low number of casualties, meaning "mass murders by intention", which are cases with less than four dead, will be removed, if the total number of victims is less than a dozen. More trimming will be needed, but I will refrain from doing so for the time being. (Lord Gøn (talk) 00:11, 10 January 2009 (UTC))
 * The following cases were removed: From the mass murders-section: Dalmacio Sargento, Ramkissoon Lochan, Michael Soles, James K. Koslow, Sylvia Seegrist, Ricardo Contawe, Juan J. Gonzalez, Walter Smalley and three Unknown. From the killing sprees-section: David W. Logsdon, Kenneth H. Schlomann, Richard Harold Hicks, William Bernard Griffin, Russell Lee Smith, Daniel Fears and Carlos Poree. From the hate-crimes section: Ziyad Salim Hussein Silmi, Benjamin Nathaniel Smith and Larry Wayne Shoemake. From the school massacre-section: Luke Woodham, Brenda Ann Spencer, James William Wilson and Hwang. (Lord Gøn (talk) 00:36, 10 January 2009 (UTC))

Ed Gein, ICP, etc
No mention of Ed Gein on the list. Also, I was surprised the kid who tried to kill people with an axe (Insane Clown Possee follower) wasn't listed under Hate Crimes, either. --24.21.148.155 (talk) 23:10, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * First, if anything Ed Gein is a serial killer and serial killers are not included in this list. Second Ed Gein killed only two people which would disqualify him anyway. About the other case, I don't know anything about it, though I assume you mean Jacob D. Robida. Reading the article, the attack resulted in 2 people dead and 4 injured, which is not enough to qualify. (Lord Gøn (talk) 23:47, 15 February 2009 (UTC))

George Banks
I think George Banks deserves to be on this list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Banks but I'm not too good at charts and things. Davidac18643 (talk) 18:56, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * He is on the list here. (Lord Gøn (talk) 19:53, 13 March 2009 (UTC))

Sorry, I found him under Family slaughters, I didn't realize the list had so many subdivisionsDavidac18643 (talk) 11:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Harold Oilar and Charlie Lawson
These ought to be added to the list. Charlie Lawson already has an article on here, so I'd add him to the list myself, but I'm unsure how. Harold Oilar killed his wife and three kids, in Pasadena in 1954.

http://laurajames.typepad.com/clews/family_annihilators/

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/thedailymirror/2007/11/rampage-revisit.html
 * Charlie Lawson could be included, if he weren't already. See here #42. Oilar on the other hand falls below the victim threshold. (Lord Gøn (talk) 19:58, 19 March 2009 (UTC))

Martin Nelson
Howdy. After the recent spate of mass shootings I began doing some research myself for my own list and I found this guy [] via a geneology site. I always like finding these really early cases because it proves mass murder or spree shootings aren't strictly a 20th century phenomenon. I also have two questions for you. I recently found an article concerning the Kirkwood City Council shooting last year and I remembered the perpetrator (Charles "Cookie" Thornton) killed five, but I didn't see his name here. As it turns out, the mayor injured in the shooting died some months later bringing the total to six. I would add these people myself, but I'd probably fuck up the numbering/tables you've made so I've elected not to. Also, what's up with that William Unek character? I've tried to find info about that guy via the NYTIMES archive but its like he doesn't exist. I think you'll probably agree that his victim count certainly puts him in the "all star" category, if there was such a thing. I'm continually searching for other people that belong here and if I find any that aren't listed, I'll try and learn how to add em'. Longevitymonger

Good morrning. I had a little discussion with User:Cyanidethistles about including the Kirkwood City Council shooting or not. I'll simply quote from there: "To quote this article: ''Mr. Swoboda's health deteriorated following a fall he took in early May, according to his son. He also had cancer. (...) "The cancer really got worse as his health was compromised. He had a number of cancers," Michael said. And here it says: Mr. Swoboda died Saturday, Sept. 6, from complications from cancer, and injuries he suffered in the Feb. 7 shootings at Kirkwood City Hall.''" You see, he had cancer, and though his injuries from the shooting might have played a not insignificant role in his death, I assume it was the cancer that finished him off. About William Unek, well, the bad thing is, it happened in Africa a long time ago. Even today the western world gives a damn shit about the black continent, its inhabitants and whatever happens to them, as long as there aren't at least several dozen people killed. Now Unek killed quite a few, too many to completely ignore the incident, but not nearly enough to do some extensive reporting, and, I guess, if he hadn't escaped from the scene to be searched even by the King's African Rifles, no western newspaper would have cared to print an article about his rampage. So, we are left with only a few and very short articles, most of them not even mentioning his name. In fact the only one mentioning the name Unek was the article in the Lethbridge Herald, which I read via Google News when articles from NewspaperARCHIVE.com were still available there. To quote from it: "Uganda police began piecing together the career of a deranged African policeman who was perhaps the greatest murder in criminal history. He shot, stabbed, clubbed or strangled 57 persons. Police said they had shown photoes of the man, who killed 36 Africans in Tanganyika last month, to police in the Belgian Congo. They identified him as the man who ran amok, there three years ago and killed 21 persons. William Unek was caught and wounded after a nine-day hunt in Tanganyika. He died in hospital."

The Times article from Feb. 16, 1957 reads as follows: "A company of the King’s African Rifles, with British officers, have now joined the police and Wasukuma tribesmen in the hunt for the African police-constable who ran amok early on Monday morning and who is now known to have killed 36 people, all within the first 24 hours. No more murders have been reported since Tuesday night. Sixteen of the victims were men, 10 were women, and 10 children. Ten of the men were shot, five axed, and one stabbed; eight of the women were shot and two burned; eight of the children were shot, one burned, and one girl aged 15 strangled." This pdf-file mentions a famous story in Malampaka, about a man only referred to as William who killed many people in the area: "The story of William is very famous in the area. It happened in Malampaka in 1956 when William was a police soldier. Narrators say he killed many people in Malampaka and neighbouring villages because of social misunderstandings with his boss. For a long time people were unable to work on the farms until William was finally killed. This period of terror is still in the minds of the people and is narrated from one generation to another." This article from the Hamburger Abendblatt reports his name as William Uneko, also stating that he killed 37, instead of the 36 reported in most of the other articles I've found. The Straits Times article tells of 34 people killed. You can read part of this article by searching the newspaper's archive here. BTW, the NYT article mentions no more than the basics, just that an African constable killed thirtysix persons with an ax and a stolen police rifle in a viilage, forty miles southeast of Mwanza and that soldiers, police and tribesmen are searching for him. That said, I'm going to add Martin Nelson. (Lord Gøn (talk) 19:19, 1 April 2009 (UTC))

Thanks for the info
Thanks for the clarification on the Kirkwood massacre as I hadn't read that the mayor was suffering from cancer. Also, the William Unek stuff was an interesting read, especially because the guy killed over 50+ people and it hardly warrented any attention (sort of brings to mind Ahmed Bragimov.) I readily agree with you on the subject of Africa, as the only time it receives news attention in my neck of the woods is if theres a new AIDS outbreak or other catastrophe. I was culling through some of the NYTIMES archive tonight and I found two more early cases, one is a pdf file here []and the second is about a woman named Ethel Geller [] who shot seven of her eleven children back in 1930. The damn thing is you have to pay a fee to read the whole article. I should also mention a website you've undoubtedly seen called "Spank Me's Mass Murder" which is really informative when in regards to the folks listed here. I've noticed that the site hasn't been updated for the past three or so years. I've considering e-mailing the guy with some of the people that are featured here and elsewhere on the net. Also, much obliged for adding Martin Nelson. Longevitymonger


 * I'll add Ethel Geller later. Of the other case I know already, but for certain reasons I didn't add the family murders with six people killed, yet. I have about fifty such cases waiting for their inclusion, though I am still unsure how to handle the Family Slaughters-category, as domestic violence doesn't mix that well with the public mass murders. The thing is that family murders are on the one hand a lot more common than their public pendants. I remember reading a study by Grant Duwe about mass murders in the United States and, if I remember correctly, 44% of the 909 cases he found, were family related (most of the rest being felony related or arsons). On the other hand theses cases are a lot less widely reported, so the bias in that section towards murders happening in western nations, and especially in the U.S., would be even more severe than in the others. So, I don't know yet what to do with it. About Bragimov, or better Ibragimov, I can tell you that there is not a lot to find on the web, not even in Russian. Most of the sources simply tell you that Aslan Maskhadov was questioned about the incident, though this Boston Globe-article had some details about it, telling that the bus driver Akhmad Ibragimov was handcuffed to a pole and beaten to death with rods by some of his victims relatives, after he had killed more than 40 people. Besides that, I guess so many cruelties happened during the Second Chechen War, that this incident was no more than a little side note. Of course I know of "Spank Me's Mass Murder" and I think it is still a valuable source, although it isn't updated anymore, because, as you can read there: "I can't be arsed anymore. Just go to Wiki. It is wise and knows all." (Lord Gøn (talk) 01:56, 2 April 2009 (UTC))

14 dead in Binghamton Shooting
Wow. I get home from work and I see this on the NYTIMES webpage. This is really getting to be commonplace. I was just reading Loren Coleman's copycat effect blog on shooting rampages after the Carthage shooting and it mentioned that March and April are the hotspots for when people decide to "pop off". The shooting in Binghamton today took me by surprise, as I hadn't expected to be reading about another case this quickly after the one in North Carolina. Binghamton is about 180 miles away from where I live. Evidently the perpetrator was found with the identification "Jiverly Voong", but according to the Buffalo News "The name is an alias that the man has used in the past, said the official, who was not authorized to speak publicly and was talking on condition of anonymity." After this massacre, I'm beginning to wonder whether soemthing will occur on the 20th of April, as it is the 10th anniversary of Colombine. Also, thanks for adding Ethel Geller. Longevitymonger
 * Well, this really is a weird accumulation of rampages, even more so as (almost) all of them happened in the United States. I don't know, but I assume that the deterioration of the economy might play a role in this. At least, according to the study by Grant Duwe I've mentioned above, there was also an increase in mass murders during the Great Depression, though most of them were family related. So, by looking at the economic downturn ahead of us, we might see a lot more of these incidents in the not so distant future. (Lord Gøn (talk) 02:18, 4 April 2009 (UTC))

school shootings?
any reason we don't include the school/workplace shootings here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.92.226.109 (talk) 01:18, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * They even have their own sections here and here. (Lord Gøn (talk) 18:26, 5 April 2009 (UTC))

--I added Brenda Ann Spencer to the list because she killed two people and injured 9, which for those of you who cannot count past the number of digits you have is 11. -Bahb —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.223.171.89 (talk) 10:57, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

---Brenda Spencer once was listed, though I removed her among others, when I changed the handling of "mass murders by intention" which are cases with less than four people killed. Now, if it isn't a mass murder then the total number of victims should be at least a dozen, which means Brenda won't be included. (Lord Gøn (talk) 21:51, 3 June 2009 (UTC))


 * Rebuttal: The page lists the criteria in the top section, and I argue again for Brenda Ann Spencer's inclusion. To quote:

Thus, this list will contain every case with at least one of the following features:

* Cases with six or more dead (excluding the perpetrator) * Cases with a double digit number of victims (dead plus injured) * "Mass murders by intention" with at least a dozen victims (dead plus injured)

Seeing how Brenda falls into the second criteria, she should be on the list, until you actually change the criteria. With a total number of 11 victims, she is a double digit killer. If you change the criteria for submissions to the list, POST IT!

-Bahb —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.223.171.89 (talk) 15:08, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * A double murder hardly qualifies as mass murder. If you had read the whole intro, you would've found this part: "According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics mass murder is defined as 'the murder of four or more victims at one location, within one event.'" This is the definition of mass murder used for this list, so her shooting is only a "mass murder by intention" and thus not subject to inclusion. qed. (Lord Gøn (talk) 21:32, 10 June 2009 (UTC))


 * Well, while I can agree with that (and I did read it), the fact that there are other school shooters and mass murderers on the list with less of a body count, that means they should be excluded as well, in that line of thinking. The stated criteria in the list I placed above is the most clearly visible criteria for submission listed, and is prefaced by a short one sentence paragraph stating "Thus, this list will contain every case with at least one of the following features:" my statement about her inclusion makes since due to the clearly labeled criteria of the listed statement of the article. Otherwise that section should be rewritten to show that the US Bureau of Justice Statistics definition is the sole measure of inclusion in this list. And you shouldn't revise the list until the criteria has actually been changed. I am a resonable person when it comes to this, and hearing arguements against her inclusion, seeing how I haven't hit the revert option yet, but you have yet to make much sence in your case for her exclusion. She has met the most clearly stated criteria for inclusion. Sure, she only managed to kill two people, but thats two more than others on the list.-Bahb


 * I don't see why it is so hard for you to understand why she should not be included. This is a list about mass murderers. You see the definition for mass murder up there? Four or more people killed. She killed two, thus she falls under numero 3, "mass murders by intention". 2+9=11 in my eyes, though in that category you need a dozen = 12 victims to be included. Therefore she fails the test, while others, who might've killed only one or none, managed to reach that magic number. Though, if you want to include her so desperately, well, do so. I am working on a new introduction, which hopefully will be more understandable, though it will take some time until I have fleshed out everything, as the whole matter is rather complicated and sifting through all those sources takes an eternety. But I can assure you, in the end, she will be a goner again. You have to draw the line somewhere. (Lord Gøn (talk) 02:52, 11 June 2009 (UTC))

--Also, shouldn't Charles Whitman fall under spree killings, as his murders spanned two locations? -Bahb —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.223.171.89 (talk) 14:06, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

---As most of the shooting was done at or from the university tower I think it is fine to put him with all the other school shootings. The same goes for Tim Kretschmer or Kipland Kinkel btw, or Mark O. Barton and Jennifer San Marco in the workplace killings section. I hope to clarify these things when rewriting the intro. (Lord Gøn (talk) 21:51, 3 June 2009 (UTC))

---Perhaps this compiled list should be separated into several different articles, that way it would make since to include Jennifer San Marco in the hate crime and spree killing sections as well, and Charles Whitman in spree killings in addition to school shootings. -Bahb —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.223.171.89 (talk) 15:20, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't find it that helpful to divide the list into several others. I think that's too much differentiation for something that belongs together. Sure, you have to make some compromises when assorting the shooters, but then I don't see that as a big problem. Of course, Whitman could also be classified as a spree killer, and San Marco's rampage might've been connected to racism, but what's the point? Whitman is almost entirely associated with the tower shooting, the killing of his wife and mother are barely footnotes, and San Marco was just another postal worker going postal at a postal office and is notable mostly for that. Murdering her neighbour doesn't make that any different, nor do her racist flyers. (Lord Gøn (talk) 21:32, 10 June 2009 (UTC))


 * I argue your view in this is perhaps not NPOV (with the statement "I think"), not that mine will nessicarily be as I will champion a logical arguement to contest yours, but I think you want a single, comprehensive list for your own convienance, when perhaps split off lists could reflect that some people span multiple sections. Jennifer San Marco was motivated by her racist hatred, and probably (cannot speak for her, but is there an itemized list of the racist materiel she had? Because this seems to fit as a Stage 4 action as described in the Turner Diaries, similar to the ones purpotrated by Timothy McVeigh, and the group known as [| The Order]. Possession of the Turner Diaries, or related propaganda papers could suggest she attacked her former workplace in some mistaken belief in ZOG/NWO (Zionist Occupation Government/New World Order). Charles Whitman killed people in several locations (his home, inside the tower by blunt force, and shooting from the roof, if you want to seperate it that far) which places him into multiple lists. I have not yet researched the other people you listed, but obviously you agree there is some possible overlap. -Bahb


 * No, I do not want a single list for my own convenience. I want a single list, because it doesn't matter that much, if somebody killed 20 people at twenty places in twenty hours, or ten people in ten miniutes at one location. They are all amoucos hellbent on murdering. It's one phenomenon and they belong together. Maybe you should do some reading about the subject, before proposing again to split this into several lists. And if you read through the discussion page, you'll find a post of somebody who proposed the complete opposite, to drop all the subsections and make one huge junk. That's nonsense either. In a list of that size you have to make some subdivisions or it would become almost unhandable. I would not dare to speculate about the motivations behind San Marco's rampage. Sure it might've been connected to racism, but then, if you read all the statements by her colleagues and neighbours, she was pretty much gaga and anything could've triggered her. There's more than one on the list where racism was suspected as a motive, but they are not included in the hate crimes section, because it's mere speculation, if this was their main reason to act as they did. Yes, Whitman killed people in several locations. Yes, he is always mentioned alongside all those other school shooters. School shootings are something special in the world of mass murder, thus they are all together to make it easy for people to get a quick overview of these cases. The same goes for workplace killings. No, mentioning several killers twice sounds like a stupid idea. (Lord Gøn (talk) 02:52, 11 June 2009 (UTC))

12 dead in Azerbaijan oil academy shooting
A man named Farda Gadyrov went on a shooting rampage at Azerbaijan's most prestigious oil academy on Thursday. Here's a NyTimes article (via Reuters) about it. [] and a Yahoo article [] Longevitymonger

Dr. Harold Perelson
This story reappeared in the news earlier this year because the owner of the house the murders occured in wants to sell it. The house is next to Frank Lloyd Wright's Ennis House in LA. Does this incident qualify for the list? --98.232.181.201 (talk) 04:48, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * http://ironysupplement.wordpress.com/2009/02/06/los-feliz-haunt/
 * http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2009/02/15/MNRL15P01T.DTL&o=0
 * Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems Perelson killed his wife and himself only, and maybe injured one of his daughters. So, no, 1 dead, 1 injured plus suicide doesn't qualify. (Lord Gøn (talk) 20:22, 1 June 2009 (UTC))

Age of the Perpetrators
I'd like to add the ages of the perpetrators at the time of the murders whereever possible. I think it would be a nice addition, especially in context of juvenile delinquents, and it wouldn't take a lot of space either. Anyone against it? (Lord Gøn (talk) 21:05, 22 July 2009 (UTC))

A Little Humor....
Howdy. I found this article while culling the Google newspaper archives for people and I got a laugh out of it. This guy (David Boyce) killed 3, but the circumstances are somewhat funny to say the least. Longevitymonger (8/18/2009) *http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=oN4PAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xIwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5570,5381246&dq=shooting-spree —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.205.221.67 (talk) 23:05, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * People are freaking out over the weirdest kind of things. e.g. that Filipino who killed eight people after losing his lunch box. This one I find rather memorable for the truly remarkable way the guy committed suicide. (Lord Gøn (talk) 02:23, 19 August 2009 (UTC))

Interesting!
I hadn't been aware of the mass murdering baker you mentioned above, but that is truly a novel way of taking yourself out. Also, I found this fellow on the Google newspaper archives and noticed he wasn't on the Mass Murderers list here. His name is Dewitt Charles Henry and he killed 6 persons outside a Klamath Falls, Oregon tavern on July 23, 1977. I also noticed that the ages of the perpetrators were added recently as well, which is a very good idea, seeing that the ages range from teenagers to nearly senior citizens, which provides interesting comparisons. One guy (William Bryan Cruse), I found out was still alive and in prison, and is well past 80. Howard Unruh is another oldie, and he turned 88 in January. Anyway, here are two articles on the aforementioned DeWitt Henry, if you decide to add him. Longevitymonger (talk) 21:41, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

 


 * Yes, that is interesting. I've never seen that one before, thanks a lot. (Lord Gøn (talk) 08:33, 23 August 2009 (UTC))

Robert McField (0r McGill)
I just stumbled across this one via the NYTIMES archive and luckily enough you can read it via a pdf file here. This stowaway killed 11 on a boat, and the article gives two last names, McField or McGill. Its interesting how the Times back at the turn of the century refer to the murderer as "negro", and I'd bet a weeks salary that they wouldn't be able to get away with that now.Longevitymonger (talk) 01:58, 25 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, AFAIK "negro" was quite a common term until the 1960s, when it became politically incorrect to use it, so I find it quite unlikely that the Times will ever risk to piss off a whole chunk of the US-population by using a word that has degenerated into a slur. (Ah, Wikipedia is my friend, it has an article about the word negro.) (Lord Gøn (talk) 23:40, 25 August 2009 (UTC))

And here's another pdf file which seems to confirm the McField surname. Hopefully this guy can be of some use, list-wise that is.....Longevitymonger (talk) 02:10, 25 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually I've found an article about this guy a few days ago in an old Norwegian newspaper and pondered for a while, if he should be included, but then I decided against it, as it seems that the whole killing was merely done to cover up a robbery. As one of the NYT articles suggests, McField was after the money on board and murdered all those people simply to get rid of the witnesses. There's actually a book about the case, and after reading a few snippets via Google Books it seems to confirm my suspicion. I know there are some felony related mass murders on the list, like the case of John Filip Nordlund, but normally I don't include them, and at some point I want to get rid of those few that are still present. (Lord Gøn (talk) 23:40, 25 August 2009 (UTC))

Interesting, as I'd really like to get ahold of that book that mentions the case more in depth (Amazon seems the best route to go with that one.) Still, McField ($1400 robbery/felony or not) killed 11 persons in a confined space (a boat), within a certain period of time. Personally, I think he should be added, but if you decide not to include him as to his role in wanting monetary gain, I'm not going to pitch a fit about it. One of the other lists I've worked on (the famous centenarians) has become a personal fiefdom for one or two users (and said users have annoyed me enough, so much so that I don't contribute there anymore.) I guess I was just amazed as to how McField could hide on a ship, kill nearly all the occupants, and try to make a break with the moneybag, so to speak. An interesting story to day the least.

Anyway (long diatribe aside), at least you considered him for inclusion. As such, here are three other cases I've found today to fill the void. Longevitymonger (talk) 01:33, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Tsui Yin (41) (January 26, 1962), Taipei, Taiwan: this guy might be an unknown on the school shootings list, but I'm not sure at the moment

Alex Miller (age unknown) (December 23, 1919), Denver, Colorado: Held in the killing of six members of the Shank family. And a pdf file here

Rober Bardoux (33) (October 20, 1954) Chateauroux, France: A blacksmith who killed six of his family. The second article (although you have to pay to read it) mentions his name as "Roger Barbou"


 * I thought I've mentioned in the introduction that felony related mass murders are not included, oh well, I've just realised that I did not. I see, I really need to rewrite the whole thing, it's fairly crappy as it stands and does a bad job in describing the matters of this list. Anyway, I wouldn't mind to include McField, if he had changed his mind and was like "Fuck the money, let's kill the shit out of those bastards just for the fun of it!", but it really seems to me, as if he was entirely motivated by getting his hands on the bucks, and I'd say that it is something different to kill for your personal gain and planning to get away, than to try to take out as many suckers as possible before you are put down, just because ... It's easier for people to connect to someone who creates a carnage for a little bit of the fancyful paper, called money - at least they have an obvious reason for their deed - than to understand those apparently mindless acts of violence where the perpetrator gains nothing, but a lot of dead people, often including himself. Furthermore, felony related mass murders are among the least widely reported, although they occur rather frequently. I remember a story from Nigeria not that long ago, where a couple of bank robbers engaged in a shoot-out with police, killing some 30 people. This was essentially a non-story for the international news-outlets. So, if felony related mass murders were to be included they needed to be separated from the other cases, at least in my eyes. But then its not worth it, due to bad reporting. We'd likely end up with a couple of US-cases, but barely anything from the rest of the world, although there are likely countless of incidents. Just look to Mexico and its drug wars, or most of the other Latin American countries where gang violence is quite common, while random shootings for no apparent reason rarely occur there (at least according to the local newspapers). (Lord Gøn (talk) 12:53, 26 August 2009 (UTC))

Shooting at Brunswick, GA, Aug. 29, 2009

 * Just a few moments ago I saw this on Yahoo! News. I'll update this if anything else comes out. Evidently it happend in Brunswick, GA, which, if I'm not mistaken, is also where Monroe Phillips went off in 1915.Longevitymonger (talk) 21:35, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Another blurb from the Brunswick News website (with pictures of the home.)Longevitymonger (talk) 22:13, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Let's see how that turns out. Not a lot information out yet, though I suspect a familicide. (Lord Gøn (talk) 23:29, 29 August 2009 (UTC))


 * Evidently, Guy Heinze Jr. was charged Friday with killing the eight people attacked in his family's Georgia mobile home. This is an interesting turn of events, as I had suspected it was a two or three person operation who did the killings, considering that there may have been drugs involved. Longevitymonger (talk) 01:29, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


 * If it turns out that Heinze really is the perpetrator I wouldn't be surprised. There have been enough cases of familicide where the killer called police, saying that he just found his family dead, or something like that. Just look at the case of James Schnick: that's what he told police, and that's how it ended . (Lord Gøn (talk) 01:57, 5 September 2009 (UTC))

Some New Finds
Here are a few new finds you may be able to use.

John Boecker (34) (September 26, 1897) Carroll, Iowa. Murdered his wife and five children, then fatally shot his 8-year old son. 

Frederick Charles Hall (48) (July 2, 1948) Tamworth, Australia. Shot and killed his six children. Subsequently sentenced to death later that September. 

Hermann Wilsdorf (age unknown) (March 11, 1907) Dresden, Germany. A former Royal Chief Forest Ranger, Wilsdorf killed his wife and five children. (under the byline "Domestic Tragedy") ,

Louise Nicosia (43) (July 10, 1940) the Bronx, New York: As the result of a bungled suicide attempt, Nicosia killed her six children by turning on five gas jets in her home. She survived the intial attempt, but died in the hospital days later. , ,

Eskar Gibson (33) (April 24, 1941) Mobile, Alabama:, beat his wife unconscious, and then soaked his home with kerosene, and set it afire, killing all six (his wife and 5 children) inside. Confessed to the murder days later (in the 2nd article.)

and finally Howard Little,  who in September 1909 killed six members of a family in Hurley, Virginia. He set fire to the home and was eventually caught and executed in Richmond in February 1910. Both articles state that robbery was the main motive for the crime, so he may not be listworthy.

Actually, (this idea literally just popped into my head) would you be opposed to creating another category here, in reference to felony related mass murders? With McField, Nordlund and the man mentioned above, there must be a few more cases of botched robberies and crimes out there that resulted in more than six people killed. Although, if list-length/size is a problem, then it might not be feasible.Longevitymonger (talk) 14:44, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I could quote myself about creating a section for felony related mass murders, but I'll simply suggest to read the discussion about the inclusion of Robert McField again. And, if you have some time to spare and feel like reading, you might want to have a look at the chapter "The sudden mass assault taxon" in The Culture-bound syndromes (pp. 197-267). A few pages are missing, but I think it still does a fair enough job in explaining what kind of mass murder image I had in mind, when creating this page, and it might help you understand, why I think felony related mass murders don't fit. Anyway, here's a little bit more about Howard Little for those interested. Besides that, thanks for your effort and keep it up. I appreciate it a lot. (Lord Gøn (talk) 19:35, 19 September 2009 (UTC))

Thanks
Thanks for the encouragement, kind words and all that. Here are a couple more cases that I failed to put with the others mentioned above....

Albert Baumberger (age unknown) (July 7, 1893) Devil's Lake, North Dakota: The family of Daniel S. Kreider (husband, wife and four daughters) were shot by Baumberger (Kreider's nephew.), ,

George O'Leary (age unknown) (June 8-9, 1973) Boston, Massacusetts: Shot his wife and five of his children, then committed suicide via a drug overdose. ,

Edmond Gray (age unknown) (January 23, 1934) Charleroi, Belgium: Took out his wife and five children with a hatchet. ,

William M'Maroo (17) (May 31, 1988, or therebouts) Nairobi, Kenya: Hacked six people to death with an ax before falling into a ditch, where he subsequently died. 

and finally this guy, who managed to kill 8 but has no info besides the posted link. Maybe you can find more on him Longevitymonger (talk) 21:21, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

and this one, which evidently occurred within the last few days. Evidently the husband got on a flight and made it to Haiti. Longevitymonger (talk) 17:02, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

The Tooting Tragedy
I will admit I got a chuckle out of the name given to this family massacre committed in England on March 7, 1895, sadly there isn't a whole lot of info on this one, only bits and pieces here and there. Maybe you'll find something that I didn't. The killers name is Frank Taylor.    Longevitymonger (talk) 18:40, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's a more detailed account of the story. BTW, what do the first two links do? Was this story mentioned in "Marley comes to haunt Scrooge in a London Palladium production" and "Freethinker, Volume 15"? I'm asking, because neither of the two is readable for me. The Google Books link just gives me a nice "No preview available" and a map with "Places mentioned in this book". (Lord Gøn (talk) 19:40, 20 September 2009 (UTC))

Strange, I found those via google, and I did a search on the "Tooting Tragedy" and those were two articles that came up. The "freethinker" one is readable where I'm at (I live in New York, by the way). The article on it is on page 181, If you go to google books, and type in "Tooting Tragedy", that should bring it up. It even says "full view" under it.

The other one (goliath.ecnext.com), I was able to read when I found it (maybe it was a free trial article or something like that) but now for some reason it isn't showing the full article. But, the link provided before is the right article. It states that the article was originally published in the Daily Mail in December of last year, so it may be in their archives.

Anyway, I'm a bit frazzled about why those didn't work, but hopefully more articles on Taylor will come to light. Frank Taylor killed seven and then himself, so for a days work it was a pretty good score. Here are two more cases (with not alot on info I might add) but the suspects names are mentioned, and hopefully, these two links will work for you.

(killed 8) Henry Olstrom killed 8. Longevitymonger (talk) 20:14, 20 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Nope, Google books still doesn't like me in this case. Not a single readable line here. Well, I suspect it has something to do with copyright issues. I have no problems with the other two, though. (Lord Gøn (talk) 20:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC))

Shooting in Naples, Florida
Here's another article (besides #49) on the killing of a family of 6 in Florida. I wonder if the US government is going to extradite this guy back for questioning, because fleeing to another country really makes him seem guilty in my eyes.Longevitymonger (talk) 22:57, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Evidently Haitian police have detained him for questioning. Article here Longevitymonger (talk) 22:44, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Even more people
Here are a few more cases I've stumbled across. Also, if any of these links don't work, feel free to hurl old phonebooks at me....

Gung Ung Chang (age unknown) (July 18, 1898) Oakland, California: In a truly novel way of approaching workplace violence, Chang (an employee of the Melrose Fuse Works) secured a hatchet and revolver and managed to blow up the works, killing six and himself. 

Rosa Wurzer (40) (February 24, 1901) Uniontown, Washington: Killed her six children by throwing them into a well, then drowned them. She was subsequently captured by townspeople and restrained. 

James Alan Day (36) (October 18, 1984) Evansville, Indiana: Shot and killed his six children and then committed suicide. 

Sam Mohawk (age unknown) (July 1, 1843) Slippery Rock Township, Butler County, Pennsylvania: Killed the wife and five children of James Wigton. Mohawk was captured and brought to trial that November and hanged in March of 1844. 

William Henry Whitworth (age given as 39) (May 17 or 18, 1860) Fort Sandown, Isle of Wight: From what I gathered by reading the annual register link posted below, this occurred on May 18th of 1860, although another mentions the 17th. Sergeant Whitworth slew his wife and six children at the fort, and was eventually tried for the crime. ,, (towards the bottom of the paper.)

Mrs. Axel Johnson (actual name and age unavailable) (October 23, 1911) Braddock, North Dakota: Locked herself and six children in the family home and set fire to it, killing all inside. 

Mrs. Louis Westhrop (age unknown) (June 1902) Mississippi: Sadly, I can't read these two links because the bastards want me to pay to get the full article, but maybe you have ways to circumvent that. She killed her six children because she was supposedly "mad from the heat". ,

and finally...

Unknown (age unknown)(November 26, 1931) Durban, South Africa: An unknown man went on a killing spree near the town of Bethlehem, killing two Europeans and seven of the native population. 

So there you go. And remember if any of these links fail to work, commence with the phonebooks!Longevitymonger (talk) 23:20, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

And One More
Well I guess the phonebooks weren't needed, and hopefully those people were of some use. Here's one more I deliberately left off because I was trying to find an exact date for when it happened. I couldn't, so here he is.

Guy M. Taylor (35) (February 11?, 1927) Utica, New York: Taylor, an out of work Teamster, killed his wife and five children and then offed himself. Both articles state that the bodies were discovered (February 18) a week after the crime had been committed, so the February 11 date is a guesstimate on my part. , Longevitymonger (talk) 01:01, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Nope, no phonebooks were needed, though I would've thrown them anyway. But then I realized that I'd have a hard time hurling phonebooks over a distance of 4000 miles, so you have to wait until I get an ICBM armed with a phonebook-warhead, which I cannot afford right now. But be assured, I am saving for it, and as soon as I have the money you better prepare for a hailstorm of phone numbers! BWAHAHAHA!!!! (yep, I am one exclamation mark beyond the madness threshold)


 * Don't bother too much about the dates. Sometimes it's nearly impossible to find out when (or where) the murders took place. On some occasions newspapers report incidents that happened weeks or event months earlier (or even worse, murders that never happened, there is one such case in one of the lists. Can you find it? :), and the only information they give is that it happened recently. In the case of Soera Brotto this "recently" was more than a year before and in all that time his victims count magically increased from seven to fourteen. Many old newspapers are often very unreliable, especially when the incident happened somewhere far away and the only source is someone who "just came here" and "brought words" of some "heinous crime". Then there are murders whose victims were found days after the crime took place. Just yesterday I've found one where a whole family was found dead, partly consumed by rats. In these cases giving a date would be guesswork, and to be honest, I have done it sometimes. (Yeah, ashes on my head.)


 * BTW, is this book readable for you? I can read only certain snippets of it, but one of them tells of an amok case where 5 people were killed and 14 wounded. If you can read the whole story, I'd be glad, if you could tell me the details. (Lord Gøn (talk) 15:43, 25 September 2009 (UTC))

No problem. Some of those google book pages can be a real bitch if you're trying to do research. Some just provide snippets, and others give you one or two free pages, but I guess its helpful when it comes to finding people such as these. Anyway, that amok case is readable on my end, so here it is in full.


 * A Turkish Soldier Running Amok": At Constantinople, a Turkish soldier sallied forth from his quarters with a naked sword in his hand. Uttering cries of "Allah!" he rushed through the crowded streets slashing madly at men and women alike. He was finally seized, but not until he had inflicted mortal wounds upon five men and serious injuries upon eleven men and three women. Among those he killed was the Secretary of the Metropolitan Railway (which runs between Pera and Galata.) This second and horrible case of running amok has caused great excitement alike among the Turkish and foreign populations." from the Herald of Peace, March 1, 1895.

So there you go. The article says he killed five, and sadly it didn't give the soldier's actual name (not a surprise, especially in relation to the last few cases of familicide I've found.) That's one thing that's always irked me since I started categorizing these people. The lack of a name is quite the stumbling block when I try to find more articles on a certain case, either when posting it here, or on my own list. Worse off, some cases, (such as the Sam Mohawk one I posted earlier) have only one article to work off of. Here's a case in point. Metz Kaiser of Monroe County, Illinois killed his wife and six children and then set fire to his home.. As you can see, it's only a small blurb, and in the The Sydney Mail from April 1878 the article is even smaller, as you can see here ( and the mans name isn't even the same, either!). Well, I guess I can't complain too much, as Google news has been an invaluble tool in helping find the majority of the cases I've posted here. I have a few more that I'll post here later on today. But in the mean time, here are two. Enjoy.

William McConnell (27): I believe there's a fellow on here by the name of William Bernard Lepine who rampaged through Kettle Valley, B.C. in August 1972. I believe that this is the same guy (he killed six), only his name may be listed incorrectly on the list here (either that, or Marc Lepine had an equally sadistic relative!).

Verlin Spencer (38) (May 6, 1940) South Pasedena, California: In an interesting case of an early school shooting, Principal Verlin Spencer, enraged over his impeding discharge, shot and killed 5 school employees, including the city superintendent. He only killed five, but seeing that there are numerous cases of less than six already on the school shootings list, I figure he'd be a good addition. Spencer got out of jail in 1970, and according to the Social Security Death index, he died in January of 1991, at age ninety., , Longevitymonger (talk) 15:37, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * WEEE! Thank you very much for providing me with the full version of that Herald of Peace snippet. Always nice to have someone helping out.


 * I guess, we have to live with the fact that in some cases we'll never be able to find out the perpetrator's name. Too many of these mass murders are severely underreported in the western media, and the chances of having access to local news outlets are quite slim when the incident happened in any non-western country. Even most western countries have done a horrible job in creating digital newspaper-archives, although you'd assume it should have some priority. The Spaniards have done a nice job with many newspapers fully searchable (if you are interested simply google "hemeroteca"), but then, my Spanish is lacking quite a bit. You certainly know the Australian newspaper-archive, which has some neat Web 2.0 features. Also nice is the archive of the Journal de Genève, at least for those who speak French. For more online newspaper-archives you can look here and here, though you have to pay for most of them. The Straits Times archive would also be great, but the fact that full articles are only readable on some selected library computers in Singapore makes it almost useless. You'd think that it couldn't be that difficult to put all the content on a freely accessable online server, but well, who knows what they were thinking when setting it up the way it is now. At least it is fully searchable and I've found quite a few cases there despite its limitations.


 * Now what I'd really like to see is a searchable archive for old German newspapers - the few that are available online are only rather small local papers and of course not searchable - and the same for Japanese ones. Though you could buy an archive for the Asahi Shimbun, which is available on CD, but it costs quite a few bucks and I don't even speak Japanese. You don't speak Japanese, do you? It'd be nice to have someone who is able to read this or this. Google translate unfortunately makes total gibberish out of Japanese texts, and deciphering it is a pain in the ass.


 * If you are interested in the case of Samuel Mohawk, maybe this can help you. To be honest, I didn't read it, so I don't know if it is any good, but I assume it contains some details of the incident. About Moritz Kaiser (I'm pretty sure his name is Moritz, not Metz, which doesn't look like a name at all to me) I've found a longer article in the Helena Independent of March 5, 1878, which I didn't read yet though. Anyway, I could give you a summary of the case, if you are interested. One case that really bothered me, and I've wasted quite some time to find more about it, is the Chinese familicide with 13 people dead. You'd think there has to be more online than two short articles with barely the basics, but nooo, nothing.


 * About McConnell - Lepine, well, they are certaily talking about the same case here, but I really don't understand how different newspapers can come up with two names so dissimilar. The Winnipeg Free Press clearly names the perpetrator as 27-year-old William Bernard Lepine. How the American newspapers can change that to William McConnell I don't know. At least they agree on his age and the victims. Anyway, as the whole matter is a Canadian affair, I'd rather believe a Canadian newspaper than one from the US.


 * Of Verlin Spencer I know already (I've written the entry at the List of school-related attacks) and I would include him, if he had wounded four more people, or killed another one, but he didn't, so no inclusion.


 * Finally, here's a truly remarkable case of familicide, if you don't know of it already. Same case, another article. Though only five people were killed, therefore being not subject for inclusion on this list, it's certainly spectacular enough to be of interest for you. (Lord Gøn (talk) 16:45, 27 September 2009 (UTC))

Glad to be of service. Yes, most of the available newspaper archives cannot be underestimated, and have been a very useful tool.But, there are others still (such as the Chicago Tribune, the Hartford Currant and the LA Times) that really piss me off mainly because you have to shell out money for what amounts to but a few articles. Even more so, the information that is sometimes given is vague at best. The NYTIMES is usually very helpful in regards to some the early cases I've posted here, as they are available for free.


 * In regards to speaking Japanese, sadly I do not. The Chinese familicide with 13 is a funny one, as you would think that it only happend nine years ago, there would be more inforemation somewhere.


 * Now for more additions. Most of these are from the 19th century and even better news, nearly all of them have names to go along with the article!

Elsie Nollen (30) (August 29/30, 1937), Denison, Iowa: Asphyxiated herself and six children with auto fumes inside the family home. ,.

Anne Brough (43) (June 10, 1854), Esher, United Kingdom: Killed her six children with a razor and then tried to kill herself. She confessed to the crime a few days later.,

Mrs. Daniel Cooper (43) (June 12, 1908), Cadillac, Michigan: Shot her husband and six of her seven children before turning the gun on herself. ,

Unknown Italian (age unknown) (August 1935) Buta, Belgian Congo: An Italian shot dead six people including a woman he was enamored with. 

Pierre Dieulafe (age unknown) (April 1932): Paris France: Killed his family of six and then confessed, stating "I lost control of myself, I hated the family." 

Henry Sovereign (age unknown) (January 21, 1832), Norfolk County, Upper Canada. Killed his wife and seven children with a knife. , (case mentioned at bottom of page), Longevitymonger (talk) 18:23, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * and here are a couple more while I'm at it.

Charles F. Ayer (January 17 or thereabouts, 1906) Pembroke, New Hampshire: Reading wise, there isn't alot on this guy (he killed seven), just this Nytimes article here and this unreadable (for me, anyway) article from the Chicago Tribune

Jans (or Jens) Hansen (January 13 or 14th, 1896) Chicago, Illinois: Murdered his wife, five children and himself by gas fumes. The Chicago Tribune decided to help me out a little here, and gave me a little more info than just one line! 

Swift Runner (an Indian) (January 1879) Moose Hills, North West Territory: This injun killed his wife, mother and seven kids and then turned Hannibal Lecter on them. He was hanged at Fort Seskatchewan in December of 1879. And again, not alot of info to go on. .Longevitymonger (talk) 23:16, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Hm, the Swift Runner case is interesting, though the source isn't readable for me (once again). But luckily this isn't a problem at all this time, as the whole story seems to be rather popular. I've found a nice article about the case, even including a photo of Swifty. Well then, bon appétit. (Lord Gøn (talk) 01:49, 28 September 2009 (UTC))

The Woolfolk Case
Ah, I see you've finally found the case centering around one Thomas G. Woolfolk. I've known about that one for quite a bit, but for reasons I'll now explain, I left him off my own list because he may not be the actual perpetrator (and now is where I twirl my evil looking mustache!) And please forgive me if you have researched this in depth, by the way. As it turns out, I stumbled across this case via www.findagrave.com, a great site by the way. Here is the article I found by accident. []. I read the first twenty or thirty lines and was convinced I found an excellent case of familicide, but as I got to bottom, I saw something unexpected. Evidently a woman named Carolyn DeLoach authored two books on said case a few years ago (and sadly they aren't available via Google books, much to my dismay.) This Deloach woman did some searching and concluded that Tom Woolfolk was probably not the murderer, but in fact it was the family's hired hand named Simon Cooper.


 * Now's where things get really interesting...The name Simon Cooper rang a bell for some reason so logically I came back to here. Then I saw the name under killing sprees. Simon Cooper, January 1/7, 1897, 6 victims. I did some half-assed detective work (but detective work nevertheless) and found that Cooper (a black man, evidently) was killed and or lynched in Summerville, South Carolina. Here's an article on the book DeLoach wrote, and it may shed more light on some things (at bottom of page). Furthermore this message board article (written by a Robert Pines) mentions a Simon Cooper lynched for murder on January 8, 1897 in Sumter, South Carolina. And to top it all, after Cooper went to that great gig in the sky, somebody found a notebook on Cooper's body, and in the notebook was found this inscription: "Tom Woolfolk was mighty slick, but I fixed him. I would have killed him with the rest of the d-m family but he was not at home."

So, I have come to only one conclusion. The Simon Cooper listed here under "Killing Sprees" who slew six persons in early 1897, may very well be the same Simon Cooper who killed the Woolfolk family nearly nine years before. Whew......Anyway, is seems that Thomas G. Woolfolk is guilty as far as the pages of history are concerned. Even the references you have listed pretty much have it sown up. Woolfolk himself was executed for the crime, so it's pretty final. I'd really like to now what you think on this, as I find it incredibly fascinating. Now, if I could only get ahold of those damned books on this case...Amazon here I come!!!!!!!!

Longevitymonger (talk) 00:49, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

and while family annihilation seems to the prevelent discussion here, another case for you. The article gives this guy's last name as Quinn, but no first name. Anyway he killed six and even better than that.... Cannibalism!!!! I'm just guessing that there weren't too many eating establishments in Montana during 1890. , Longevitymonger (talk) 02:35, 29 September 2009 (UTC)]

and this woman, too. This one is nearly as good as the cliff familicide you posted earlier. , and in case Google books decides to be a bitch about things, here's more links , Longevitymonger (talk) 01:07, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

and here is another article (though just a blurb) on Simon Cooper's possible involvement in the Woolfolk slayings. With the stuff that I've mentioned, see what you can dig up. Longevitymonger (talk) 23:44, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Hm, this sounds quite interesting. With the given information I guess it is very unlikely that the Simon Cooper mentioned by DeLoach is not the one we've already listed, and as Mrs. DeLoach apparently spent quite some time investigating the murders the theory certainly has some credibility, but nontheless, it remains a theory. With all those conspiracy theories floating around, especially in the cases of Dunblane, Port Arthur, Columbine, Erfurt and now Winnenden, I've decided that I will stick to the official version, until it is conclusively disproven. So, as I don't think that Tom Woolfolk was posthumously acquitted he will continue to be listed as the perpetrator. What I could do though is adding it to the "Additional notes", and I guess I will do so, as it sounds pretty plausible. (Lord Gøn (talk) 00:50, 1 October 2009 (UTC))

I was hoping that you'd say that. As far as the annals of history are concerned, Woolfolk is the murderer and I see no reason to remove him from where he's listed now. Seeing that this crime happend over 120 years ago, it'll take a massive amount of detective work/evidence to officially prove otherwise. I'm also wondering what kind of records (police wise that is) were kept on this case (and if they still exist.) But, Simon Cooper was a very busy man evidently, and it would be interesting to know what he was up to during the years between the Woolfolk murders and his spree in 1897:)

and then there is this fellow. Rafael Lopez, a Mexican who killed 6 in 1913 and then decided to hole up in a mineshaft. , Longevitymonger (talk) 01:14, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Ivan Boronzoff
Here's yet another early (March 1904) family slaying. Ivan Boronzoff of Kotjoff, Russia murdered his wife, three sons and three daughters (with an ax.) He then axed himself and died of his injuries within hours. .

Thomas Jones (age unknown) (sometime during 1900) Raleigh. North Carolina: Jones, a preacher, murdered Ella Jones and her daughter. He then set fire to the mother's home, killing her other four children. He was hanged August 31, 1900 for the crime. 

and then there's this lady of whom information is very scarce. Her name is Sophie Gauthier and she killed seven of her children in a most unique manner. The exact date is hard to reference from the articles, (as one of them I'm unable to read) but its either 1876 or 1877. ,. Longevitymonger (talk) 00:17, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * You'd think that an extreme case like the one of Sophie Gauthier leaves more traces in history, but after searching a little bit here and there I didn't find more info than is already in the articles you've posted. Here's another article which essentially is the same as the others, though interestingly it reports her name as Gambier (I assume the L should be an I), so either Gauthier is not her name (which wouldn't surprise me, as names are often reported incorrectly in old newspapers, but then neither Gambier, nor Boyou brought any results either), or nobody really cared about the case. A problem we are facing in this, as in so many others cases is, we don't know when exactly it happened, nor where. Bourg alone isn't very helpful with all those locations bearing that name, and knowing that she was executed some time in January or early February doesn't make it a lot easier. So, if we wanted to know more about the case, we'd have to read old French newspapers. I am pretty positive that there is an article to be found about the case e.g. in Le Figaro, but I really don't have the initative to go through page after page written in a language I've problems understanding. So, if someone's out there, looking for a few funny hours, go ahead. And if you find something, please tell us. (Lord Gøn (talk) 02:50, 2 October 2009 (UTC))

Well, a search was conducted and I've concluded that this woman has next to nothing as far as info is concerned. I used the gallica.bnf.fr link and searched le figaro for the dates February 3, 4, 5, and 6th 1876. The Chicago Tribune link you posted above mentions her being executed on the 4th of February (as the link from the 5th mentions the date as "yesterday") and those searches yielded zero results. I also tried looking up the term "sete enfants", which if my french is correct means seven children, or babies. That also resulted in loose ends.


 * On Google books there are sometimes annual registers or yearbooks from the States, the U.K. or other countries, and most of the time they're pretty helpful. But, not as far as Mademoiselle Gauthier is concerned!


 * In other news, I did find this annual register that highlights selected pieces of British history from Queen Victoria's ascension until 1871. I saw that under June 28, 1869 it mentioned the murder of a family by the name of Duggan (a wife and six children) by the father (who had some help in the form of prussic acid.)


 * If this link is unreadable for you (which it may be), I will write it on here, as I did for our Turkish friend a bit earlier.....Longevitymonger (talk) 23:40, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Ha, again Google fails me and decides to show only a little extract, but finding this little article about the case kept my disappointment manageable. (Lord Gøn (talk) 03:41, 6 October 2009 (UTC))

Virginia Tech Massacre
Surely Seung-Hui Cho should be on this list? I mean, his spree did kill 32 people... TBH I'm really surprised he's not [.]_[.] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.0.188 (talk) 21:40, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * But he is on the list, just look here. First one of the school massacres-section. (Lord Gøn (talk) 06:37, 12 October 2009 (UTC))

Howard Unruh
After a few days of computer/browser problems, its good to be writing soemthing here. I'll be posting that Walter Duggan thing a bit later like I made mention of a few days ago. Also, Howard Unruh died today at age 88 in New Jersey. I wonder if anyone tried to interview him within the last few years, as I've read he died of a lingering illness. Here's a NYTIMES link on it. Longevitymonger (talk) 22:05, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I remember reading somewhere a while ago that his health deteriorated quite a bit in the last few years and that it was not expected that he would survive the next months, so I am not really surprised to hear of his death. I don't think that anyone interviewed Unruh within the last few years. AFAIK he didn't talk much to anyone and declined all requests for interviews. Now, what I find a little bit odd is that in all those years nobody bothered to write a book about the case, at least none that I know of. I guess I'll never understand why there is such a hype around Charles Whitman while others like Unruh, Huberty or Hennard were apparently not interesting enough for a more detailed examination. Ok, there's a book about the Luby's massacre, but besides that it seems to be pretty much forgotten. (Lord Gøn (talk) 23:44, 19 October 2009 (UTC))

and what I promised earlier....


 * June 28-"Murder and suicide of the Duggan family at Hosier-lane. Early in the morning the police on duty at Smithfield station recieved a letter written by Duggan, stating that their services would be required at his house in Hosier-lane-a street very near the police station-at ten o'clock, and if they were to find the doors locked, they were to force an entrance. Policemen were at once sent to the house, and the whole family--Duggan, his wife, four boys and two girls--were found lying dead in their beds, poisoned with prussic acid. In another letter to a relation, Duggan complained that he was led to commit the crime through harsh treatment recently experienced; but this was disproven in evidence before the coroner, whose jury found that the father had murdered his wife and six children in a state of mental abberation." from the "Annals of our time: a diurnal of events, social and political...1870". So there you go.

I've seen Unruh (evidently pronounced Un-roo) mentioned in a few crime/criminology books, but most of the time it amounted to a few lines. For awhile it was the worst mass murder of its kind here in the states, but as far as a case study and books are concerned, Unruh's really been neglected. Also, one thing I found interesting is that another obscure case--Campo Elias Delgado--spawned a sucessful novel “Satanás” (Satan), and it was eventually made into a movie in 2006. And if you already knew that, my apologies. I have a few more cases that I'll post later on, so until then, Good day. Longevitymonger (talk) 02:01, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Sooo, mind sharing your findings? (Lord Gøn (talk) 08:39, 17 November 2009 (UTC))

W column
The labeling of the weapon column is very confusing at the moment. The key is located at the end of a random section. This should be placed before the first table at the very least. — RockMFR 02:33, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I've now put the description at the end of the list with a wikilink to it in the first table. I hope this is ok. (Lord Gøn (talk) 22:19, 26 November 2009 (UTC))
 * To be honest it's still as clear as muddy water. I'll add it elsewhere :-) Cls14 (talk) 16:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Bath School DIsaster
I'm aware that under definitions bombs/arson are excluded based on the assumption that the perpetrator can't control who he/she is killing, but there are in fact such examples in other areas of this list. Further, Andrew Kehoe, the bomber, planned the even months in advance, and did in fact target many of his victims. Finally, this is of important note because it was the deadliest mass murder ever to occur at a school, with 45 killed. If no one can provide a reasonable justification to exclude this, I'm inlclined to add it. --Williamsburgland (talk) 01:17, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Vasili Blokhin
Why is Vasili Blokhin not included in this list? Given that he executed over 7000 people within 28 days, he is surely more than qualified to appear on the lists. -- 91.11.235.203 (talk) 12:48, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What Blokhin did was essentially a war crime, a mass execution backed by the Soviet government and military, with a lot of others involved. Mass murders of that kind are not part of this list. (Lord Gøn (talk) 17:10, 15 April 2010 (UTC))
 * Alright, I understand. But wouldn't it be appropriate to then create a corresponding list? -- 91.11.196.2 (talk) 23:39, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, there is a List of events named massacres, which also includes the Katyn massacre – though Blokhin himself isn't mentioned specifically. (Lord Gøn (talk) 14:46, 16 April 2010 (UTC))

Derrick Bird
Can someone remove Derrick Bird from the list of 'Mass Murderers'. He's already in the 'Killing Spree' section, which is clearly more appropriate. My Wiki-foo is insufficiently strong to do tables properly :( RatSplat ooo 15:38, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. Mannafredo (talk) 16:00, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Timothy McVeigh
He killed 168 and injured over 430 in one of the most deadly bombings on US soil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.51.42.8 (talk) 07:35, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

RFC involving this article
Content noticeboard

This article is currently being discussed as part of WP:Request for Comment at the Content noticeboard under the section heading A mess of WP:Content Forks. The discussion is to decide how this and other closely related articles could be systematically organized to avoid redundancy The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 21:00, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Move
Shouldn't this be moved, perhaps to List of mass murderers and spree killers? With a sortable list, the "...by number of victims" is not necessary. Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:13, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Rework
If there aren't any objections I will soon rework the list as follows: First, I'll rename it to "List of rampage killers", then I'll throw the mass murder and spree killing lists together and resort them by continent. (Lord Gøn (talk) 12:51, 18 May 2011 (UTC))

Anders Behring Breivik (The Norwegian Killer)
This guy seems to fit the bill as a rampage killer. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 10:38, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to put in the correct numbers, but there's an edit conflict Trubadurix (talk) 13:01, 23 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh wait, I see him, he's under hate crimes. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 13:32, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * He was entered twice, once under Europe and once under Hate crimes. The double entry has been removed now Trubadurix (talk) 14:46, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd say Hate crimes is the correct category here, he has been extremely explicit about his motivations. Joakimlundborg (talk) 15:55, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

He's not convicted yet, although he admitted it and by all odds is being convicted it's kinda misinforming to state that he was the one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.185.81.150 (talk) 00:27, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * He had about 400 witnesses, was arrested while in the process of executing the youngsters one by one, had preceded the killing spree by releasing a 1500 page manifest explaining his actions, and he gladly confessed. I don't think we're being rash by omitting the 'alledged'-qualifier. In fact, this is one of the very few cases when adding it would be kind of ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.38.109.188 (talk) 17:35, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Most of his victims seems to actually have drown when trying to escape island by swimming with cloths in quite cold water (about 15 degree C), some with non-fatal bullet wounds. Maybe this should be reflected somehow... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.225.25.70 (talk) 12:06, 24 July 2011 (UTC)