Talk:List of reptilian humanoids/Archive 2

mmmmm....very interesting...
If anyone actually wants to check out some serious stuff concerning the whole 'reptilian' arena before they jump on the ol' 'that can't be true' bandwagon, then there's a video interview with Zulu shaman Credo Mutwa - available from the Bridge Of Love Publications website. I agree with a lot of what Khranus says about 'writing off' stuff b4 checking it out - smells like fear to me.......


 * I think Khranus should email Jimbo and ask to be allowed back. I also think the the pro-skeptic bias of the wikipedia can be circumvented by folks like him behaving in a particularly respectable manner so as to minimize the prejudice against them when they provide their cited verifiabile informations. Sam [Spade] 19:23, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yep - It is a shame to lose people like Khranus from the discussion. I also accept that Wiki want to exert SOME control over the nature of expression on the site (I'm guessing from the 'banned user' page that the ban was about so-called 'bad language' etc? Although no specific reason seemed to be given?) So - if you're out there Khranus, how about it? Musicman 18:19, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)


 * he became abusive in his talk page communications, and simultaneously engaged in edit wars involving some highly dubious additions regarding dolphins conducting fusion within their heads. Sam [Spade] 22:52, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"Greys" as Dinosauroids
I think it's worth mentioning on this page that many conspiracy theoriests claim that "Greys" are actually reptiles because of their similarity to paleontologist Dr. Dave Russel's half-serious, hypothetical "Dinosauroid" which is essentually a humanoid descendant of the Troodontids -- specifically, the genus Stenonychosaurus.

It should also be noted that not all believe these are "aliens". Many will refer to supposed myths that the subterranean Nagas could fly around in metallic disks which they kept hangared beneath the Earth's surface. The idea, here, is that (non-Avian) Dinosaurs have a several million year headstart on humans, and therefore greater technology, and did not go completely extinct but instead retreated into the "Underworld" to escape the nuclear winter caused by the meteorite that destroyed their contemporaries.

I could go on and on. Do some research for yourself and you will find these theories thoroughly fascinating. Insane, nutty, implausible, and usually rather juvenile, but fascinating nonetheless.

--209.206.169.222 10:09, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Care to edit? ;) Sam [Spade] 17:15, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I've had quite a bit of trouble pinning down the original source for Russel's "dinoman", so I'd have to devote some time to research before even attempting an edit. Also, there's quite a bit material to cover in the whole "dinosaurs/reptiles as aliens" issue.  In most of the reading I've done, a lot of it has to do with folklore and mythology of the "Underworld" and the psuedo-reptilian inhabitants therein (such as the aforemention Nagas).  This sort of an issue would probably require it's own page, and should probably be allied more with UFO-ology than a general "reptilian humanoid" article which I think would probably work better as a categorized listing of lizard-men in fiction, games, mythology, etc.


 * I mean, a page on reptilian humanoids is hard to find on the net. The one here could list everything from the "Cardassians" on Star Trek, to the Kremlings in Donkey Kong Country, to the Nagas in Indian mythology.  It would be a useful resource.


 * Anyway, I think this merits more discussion before any definitive action is taken -- but the article as it exists now suffers from two main problems: (1) it appears to be about reptiloids in general, from videogames, UFOlogy, literature, folklore, etc., but instead focusses almost solely on the UFOlogy aspect of it, and (2) is not nearly thorough enough in the psychology and "research" (if you can call it that) behind the UFOlogy angle.


 * I would personally suggest making this article an archive of "reptiloids" such as the similar articles concerning species in folklore and fantasy-fiction (covering everything from Star Trek to Donkey Kong to actual mythology, as mentioned above), and then devoting a seperate page to "Reptiloids in UFOlogy" or "Aliens as Reptiles" or "Reptilian Conspiracy Theories" or something like that, because it is an interesting (and disturbingly widespread) sociological phenomena.


 * --Corvun 02:33, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I disagree w you on a few things, but would ask you to Be Bold. Just don't delete useful content, and lets see what you have in mind. Sam [Spade] 02:43, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm curious - what is it, particularly, that you disagree with? I'm asking mainly because I'm unsure of which course of action would be best.  Expanding the list of reptiloids and non-UFOlogy/Conspiracy content, or adding more depth to the UFOlogy/Conspiracy aspect itself?  I'm somewhat new to Wikipedia, and although I'm certainly tempted to Be Bold, I don't want to end up starting an edit war or make things excessively complicated if it turns out that the UFOlogy/Conspiracy angle deserves a seperate page.


 * --Corvun 03:18, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm not convinced about there needing to be a second page to focus on the alien dinosauroids angle, w this page being focused on fiction. As far as an edit war, I wouldn't worry. The only guy who had extreme feelings about reptilians got banned for being a bit too agro (see above). I don't think anybody else is gonna get very emotional about it. I guess my advice would be to keep everything on this page until its clear there is enough info to warrant a second page, but if you really want a separate page I'd like to see what it looks like :). Sam [Spade] 00:19, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Philip K. Dick, TLE, Meth, Branton
Please put on your tin-foil hats and fasten your seatbelts:


 * Many people consider that Dick was suffering from psychosis or bipolar disorder at the time he reported these experiences, and he is known to have had psychotic symptoms.


 * 1) There is some debate on this topic. Lawrence Sutin (Dick's biographer), and Eve LaPlante (TLE medical writer) suggest that temporal lobe epilepsy provides the best clinical explanation for Dick's behavior, not BPD. Accodring to one of Dick's wives, there is some evidence that he was misdiagnosed with BPD.  It might be interesting to add TLE to his section along with BPD, just for clarity.  Oh, and let's not forget that Dick was taking methamphetamines, too.
 * 2) Strange as it sounds, there appears to be some kind of anecdotal correlation between meth use and reported Reptoid (or lizard) delusions. Branton, one of the popular Reptoid conspiracy writers, claims that, "...the reptilians promote the use of drugs especially methamphetamine and crank..."  You might want to do a search on this strange gentleman and add him to your Modern Claims and/or conspiracy sections.  Of course, it looks like Branton stole everything from Edward Bulwer-Lytton.  I'm not sure why meth keeps popping up in relation to Reptoids, but it does.  --Viriditas 07:36, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Branton is a decent researcher but has some incorrect ideas based upon disinformation which he took as fact. The connection between meth and Reptilians probably has to do with the fact that Draco warriors often ingest methamphetamines, as do US Air Force pilots, before combat, to increase agility, perception, speed, etc.  Edward Bulwer-Lytton was basically writing from what he knew from occult secret societies.  The information was not totally accurate.  Same goes for Maurice Doreal.  The Illuminati are very real, and are currently manipulating the world toward a New World Order based upon Draconian beliefs.  I wish it weren't true, but I can't deny reality, history or my own experience.  For accurate information on the Draco and other alien races, refer to Stewart Swerdlow at http://www.stewartswerdlow.com  For proof that the Illuminati exist and that the New World Order is a very real threat, refer to www.prisonplanet.com prisonplanet.com is fringe, does not meet our sourcing guidelines and should not be used, www.infowars.com infowars.com is fringe, does not meet our sourcing guidelines and should not be used, and http://www.propagandamatrix.com  Since most of this information is difficult for most people to swallow, I would suggest beginning with 9/11, the Road to Tyranny--Alex Jones' excellent film on government-sponsored terrorism.  You can see it for free at 9/11, the Road to Tyranny.  Truth is indeed far stranger, but also far more realistic than fiction.  This is the way governments always behaved throughout history, except for a few rare exceptions.  It is a delusion to believe that there are not elitist royals controlling as much as they can today.
 * Thank you for sharing your opinion, but his page should be used for discussing the article and commenting on how to improve the page. It should not be used as a personal, political soapbox, or for trying to convince people of pet theories. Wikipedia policy is that all articles should have a neutral point of view. I kindly suggest that you study that page.   --Viriditas 17:06, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Joking/Ambiguous
There is no ambiguity in the references I moved to this section. These were statements not intended to be taken seriously, or using 'reptilian' as a metaphor for 'evil and slimy'. DJ Clayworth 16:46, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Also while I am here "These claims are not given credence by most people" is not POV, it is simply true. I didn't say the claims weren't true, I just said that hardly anybody believes them, which is absolutely factual. DJ Clayworth 16:51, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You can't be absolutely sure whether they were metaphor, symbolism, or symbolic jokes. I know how the Illuminati think, and from my experience they like to 'joke' in this manner.

Those claims are not even known to most people, so they cannot be said to be 'not given credence'. (unsigned)

"I know how the Illuminati think". Lets get back to reality. This was a joke press release. Read the article. Read the news articles.

By the way, are you Khranus? If so, please let us know now. It will save a lot of trouble. DJ Clayworth 18:07, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Also, even among the people who know about these theories, most give them no credence. DJ Clayworth 18:08, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * "Most give them no credence". Great for them. They probably can't handle such a weighty reality, or simply are ignorant to what is going on.  As I said, 'joke' press releases usually contain meaningful symbolism when coming from major political parties.  Also, the Bushnell incident was not a 'joke' press release.  It was an actual incident, and Bushnell warned people that he was serious, refusing to apologise for his statement.  As I said, he was forced to resign as the head of the ABA.


 * If you demand to be stubborn and keep the latter article labelled 'joking', go ahead. I must warn you, however, that attempting to deny reality will not change it.  Accepting what is going on empowers you with the oppurtunity to change it.

Duly noted. DJ Clayworth 19:37, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

129.173.208.180
Stop promoting edit wars by reverting valid edits. You also seem fond of fabricating claims, and I suspect you are copying them from some other authors without citation. Either cite your references ("Leary was a CIA operative for MKULTRA") or continue to get reverted. --Viriditas 02:06, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Leary was certainly an operative of MKULTRA. This was documented.  He wouldn't have had access to LSD at that time for research otherwise.  Harvard was a major centre for MKULTRA experimentation.  This is public information, available from the Library of Congress, or from www.trance-formation.com (on CD) as part of the MKULTRA documents...His only claim to the contrary is that they didn't pay him for his work.  This was very likely untrue, for obvious reasons, though financial records between Leary and the CIA are not currently available to the public.  I didn't revert 'valid edits'.  I'm not promoting 'edit wars'.  I don't see where you get this idea 129.173.208.155
 * You are misinformed. It was LSD researcher Humphry Osmond who had connections to the CIA and MI6, not Leary.  And, that is documented.  Leary had access to LSD at the time because it was legal.  I suggest you try to check your facts before editing these pages again, and please,  get get a handle, log in, learn to indent, and sign your comments. --Viriditas 00:52, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Leary was also a CIA mind-scientist. He was also very programmed, however, so I am sure there were parts of him that thought he was freeing humanity.  Anonymous

Middle East

 * In one of the apocryphal books purporting to be the lost Book of Jasher, a serpent race is described. 

Which Sefer haYashar? The midrash or Pseudo-Jasher? They're both later forgeries.


 * The Israelites recorded that the former inhabitants of Canaan were "Serpents", "Rephaim", "Nephilim" and "Anakim". 

None of those words mean 'serpent', as any lexicon of Biblical Hebrew will tell you.


 * They refer to "Fallen Ones", "Giants", and "Sons of Anak". They all refer to either the Inner Earth Draco, or to the cannabilistic tribes created by them, which existed in Canaan.  There were also among them genetically spliced creatures from Atlantis, as the Canaaani (Phoenicians), who seeded the Canaanite tribes, were descendents of the Atlantean Sons of Belial, those who worshipped a predatory Astral deity, and brought with them the "wolf-headed archers" (look them up in nearly any Mediterranean culture).  The Canaani also seeded the Mohawk nation (Kanien'kehaka) and other Native American peoples, Iberians, Celts, and Armenians, among others.  All of these people at one time worshipped the chief god of the Canaani, the terrible sun god, Bel (variously Belial, Bael, Ba'al, Belel, Beel, etc.).


 * This could refer to the Sumerian-influenced worship of serpents and dragon-like creatures which pervaded the Canaanite people before the Israelites entered that region.

On what grounds do we make these bold assertions about Canaanite religion? Hmm? Are there any academic sources we could cite, perhaps? &#8212;No-One Jones (m) 21:52, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Phoenicia.org. The Greek Goddess Athene was influenced, or originated with, the Canaanite, and ultimately Phoenician goddess, Anat (http://phoenicia.org/greek.html).  She was depicted bearing serpents and standing atop a lion.  This is related to the Reptilianized Lion archetype.  She was even referred to as the "Face of Ba'al".  Athene was said to have come from the head or face of Zeus.  El, Belial, was the highest god in Canaanite religion.

I don't know which book of Yashar was referred to; the original article just said "the Book of Jasher". If I had to guess, I'd say Pseudo-Jasher. But I haven't read either one. I didn't add the stuff on Canaanites, but I couldn't vouch for them _not_ ever being referred to as serpents, or for them not worshipping serpents. -Ben Standeven

crazed hacking apart of article
removing large portions of an article without concensus in talk is not acceptable. It is also pointless, since much of it will be replaced. Of course the article is far from perfect, but deleting half the page isn't helping anything. Sam [Spade] 22:00, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I explained my deletions in the edit summaries. Which of them do you dispute? &#8212;No-One Jones (m) 22:05, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I dispute mass deletions of text w/o a prior history of having communicated in talk. Sam [Spade] 22:09, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * OK, the byzantium bit is an improvement. As for the rest of the mess you've been making of things here, isn't there a general understanding on the wiki that removed text is to be replaced w improved text? Also, you need to have been discussing these matters here in talk for some time before demanding references and deleting huge portions of the article. People need time to respond. Check the edit history, these arn't my contributions your deleting. Sam [Spade] 22:16, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * I dispute mass deletions of text w/o a prior history of having communicated in talk. &mdash; That's nice; I dispute putting unsourced, irrelevant loads of bullshit into articles. However, though you didn't ask nicely, I'll explain:


 * deleted:

Throughout the world, in apparently unconnected societies, the belief pervades that a Reptilian race lives beneath the Earth and interacts with the surface.
 * This much is true and could be restored.

In most cases another race, tall and "Nordic" in appearance, is described. These were the "Elves" of European lore.
 * They appear only in some Germanic folklore and mythology (which lacks reptoids, note), and this description isn't entirely accurate; see Elf. In any case it's irrelevant.

The Reptilians were often described as having a caste hierarchy, in which the highest caste was winged.
 * Weasel passive. Who describes them this way?


 * I do not know who this person was referring to, but I do know that the Chinese, Cambodians, Indians, and others, refer to a hierarchy of Dragons, as do the European draconic folklores. These speak of the highest Dragons as being winged, and the lowest as having no wings.

This correlates with information from current abductees, contactees and former government employees who have disclosed information regarding alien interaction with Earth-governments.
 * This is unsourced conspiroid bullshit.

Many ancient peoples worshipped a serpent-God(dess) called El or Hel, which was considered the God-Goddess of the Underworld, the Moon, and Venus.
 * What nonsense. See El (god) and Hel (goddess). Hel was the Norse goddess of the underworld, true, but not a reptilian AFAIK.

These three locations (underground, the Moon, and Venus) are all described by abductees, former covert government employees, and the like, as being major bases for a reptilian species from the Draco star system who have been involved with this planet for at least two million years.
 * More unsourced conspiroid BS.


 * deleted

See version immediately before. The whole thing is nonsensical. &#8212;No-One Jones (m) 22:24, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * deleted everything from "A Nordic race. . ." onward:

None of this explains how it is in any way relevant to the subject of the article; it's nothing more than an unsourced collection of vague rumors and "legends" from Indian history. &#8212;No-One Jones (m) 22:24, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

As for this:
 * isn't there a general understanding on the wiki that removed text is to be replaced w improved text?

Unsourced nonsense can be removed to talk for improvement at any time. Generally the author (and I understand that you didn't write much or any of this) is expected to be able to provide references for what he writes; if someone else wants to put the text back, they should be able to come up with references for it.


 * Also, you need to have been discussing these matters here in talk for some time before demanding references and deleting huge portions of the article.

Since when? I saw stuff that was bogus; I removed stuff that was bogus; I asked for sources and references. If you want to put it back you are welcome to take responsibility for it; that includes citing sources and providing references. &#8212;No-One Jones (m) 22:24, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Pythagoras
Since you're so intent on having the references to Pythagoras in the article, I expect you can provide references for all of this. What were these "events relating to serpents", who reported them, and what does the Python have to do with all this? I also recommend reading the comments by Muriel Gottrop and The Anome on the archive. &#8212;No-One Jones (m) 22:26, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Spacecraft

 * Ancient Sanscrit texts also refer to spacecraft and aircraft called Vimana. Nuclear debris has been found in regions said to be destroyed by 'the gods' in Kashmir and other locations throughout the Indian peninsula.

Since you're also intent on reinserting this, I suppose you can a: provide a reference and b: explain what on earth this has to do with the topic of the article, i.e. reptilian humanoids. Its relevance is not at all apparent to the average reader. &#8212;No-One Jones (m) 22:28, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Vimana are the Lemurian and Atlantean craft used during their ancient wars. The Lemurian variety were piloted by Reptilians. Anonymous

Clean the ancient part
I guess that a great deal of the ancient references are fabricated or stretched. Can you mark clearly what parts we are sure that some ancient people believe?


 * I actually don't know much about this aspect, my knowledge is mainly in regards to Nazi mysticism concepts of Hitler riding in UFO's w reptiloids under the antartic. My objections were to mirv removing 1/2 the article before others could come up w their facts. If anyone wants references as to the whole "underground/moonbase nazi ufo's w reptiloid friends" aspect, I can cite plenty of books for that. Sam [Spade] 14:37, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, but most of those books cite the same source. Anyhoo, Mirv has been doing a pretty good job maintaining this page in the wake of Khranus' edits. --Viriditas 20:40, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Neofacism
Just out of curiosity, why are David Icke's views considered newfacist? While I certainly don't believe what he says, I haven't seen any facist agenda. 66.90.158.156
 * Have a look at his book, "And the Truth Shall Set You Free". It's a 491 page conspiratorial rant in defense of the "veracity" of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  Icke has also been associated with neofascist groups and people (Ernst Zundel), and blames society's problems on an alleged Jewish conspiracy.  This is standard, neofascist party line.  Sadly, Icke attempted to co-opt the Green party before people caught on to what he was really about.  --Viriditas  | Talk 19:45, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Icke is not a racist, that is absurd. No matter how many times it is explained he believes lizards control the planet (and not Jews!) it doesn't matter for those with an agenda to destroy him. For people who get their info edited here, please come to my wiki(links on my user page) Conwiki 05:21, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Icke was at one time called a 'fascist' as part of a smear campaign by the ADL, because he said, among his other material, bad things about Zionist and Israeli policy. Anonymous

NPOV: Needs references
We need sources which say that the Mayans, etc. claimed to be shown how to make pyramids by reptiles. If the only source for this is conspiracy theory lit, then we need to indicate who is making these historical claims. Until then I think it's a tad bit POV (and ridiculous) to tell the pro-Reptilian interpretation of history with a straight face and without heavy amounts of qualification. --Fastfission 16:26, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I can dig up some references for some of the mythological claims. Unfortunately, the person(s) who wrote this article did not go back to the mythological/anthropological sources, but received a highly digested (and often seriously distorted or partial) version of the myths via the conspiracy literature. Decius 23:01, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Lizard Man
I'm surprised that the Lizard Man of Scape Ore Swamp is not mentioned in the article. I actually came across this "reptilian humanoid" article because I typed in "Lizard Man" in an attempt to find an article about those South Carolina swamp reports. Decius 02:31, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Reptilian humanoids in fiction
Moved the fiction (and Gtrmp moved the game) discussion to a separate article, Reptilian humanoids in fiction. It will be a full article in itself, since they occur so often. Two advantages: this article here will be unburdened; the new fiction article will go into more detail. Decius 03:03, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

NPOV tag
Is it possible that we can remove the neutrality dispute tag here? DJ Clayworth 02:55, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It should stay till we verify more of the mythological claims. User:Fastfission did right in putting that notice till we verify more. Decius 03:32, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I can help work to verify these 'claims' over the next while if you wish. It will not be very difficult.  Anonymous

Example of an unverified claim
If anybody wants these claims in the article, they should try to find a credible source for these claims:


 * "The Mayans speak of a reptilian species, referred to often as "Iguana-Men", who descended from the sky to take control of their civilization, teaching them the art of pyramid building as well as demanding human sacrifice."

---I've removed that claim from the article. A similar scenario is presented in various versions of the Book of Enoch (fallen angels rather than iguana-men, though), but I cannot trace that claim to an old Mayan source (did not find it yet in the Popol Vuh or the Chilam Balam, both old Mayan books I've been searching through). Decius 08:01, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That claim, along with many others, was first added into the article at 5:01 9 Sep 2004 by an anonymous contributor, 24.222.98.251. See. That's the kind of material that needs to be verified, before the NPOV dispute can be settled. Decius 08:31, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

More than "point of view", it's a problem of factual accuracy and the lack of it. Decius 08:36, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Another one from the same anonymous, 5:11 9 Sep 2004:


 * "Indian histories refer to a reptilian race called the "Sarpa", who founded civilization, creating the cannabalistic Dravidians, being the source of the Hindu caste system (based upon a Draconian caste hierarchy, apparently) and demanded human sacrifice."

Most of the myth-claims were added by that anonymous user. Decius 08:53, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've been surfing the net, and found a number of webpages that quote past versions of this Wikipedia article as their authoritative source or something, without apparently questioning their source---their source was Wikipedia, and it was brought into Wikipedia by anonymous user 224.222.98.251 on Sep 9th, 2004. I'm trying to prevent Wikipedia from becoming a piece of shit, a piece of shit that is spreading shit across the internet. I want solid references for all the myth-claims at least. Decius 09:43, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The majority opinion is that anonymous user 24.222.98.251 was actually User:Khranus, an individual who was not familiar with the basic methods of research into the paranormal, a field where anything less than precision leads to a juvenile mish-mash of factually worthless material---which brings us to his contributions. Decius 09:53, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If there are any such things on this planet as reptilian humanoids, you will not get to the truth of the situation unless you are scientific and accurate. Decius 09:59, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Reptilian Civilisation on Earth
Go to Yonaguni, Japan, where a massive Lemurian (reptilian) temple still exists at the bottom of the ocean. Go to Cambodia and ask the local historians about the long legendary history of the Naga there, whom they say were a society of 7 Reptilian races "for the seven colours of the rainbow", who seeded their society and others, and once lived on an island or continent in the Pacific that sank. Go to numerous religious sites and ancient ruins, such as Angkor Wat or the Forbidden City, where Reptilian/Human hybridisation is extensively symbolised, particularly in the form of the Reptilianised Lion, the archetypal symbol, appearing in nearly all cultures worldwide (including those who lived near no lions, including China), for royalty. You can find this same symbol on basically all Federal Courthouses, run by the Temple Bar in England. You can also find numerous other symbolisms, including three rows of 13 windows on the facades of such buildings. Refer to the research into 'horizontally transferred DNA', and the unexplained transition from Reptilian to Mammalian gene sequences present in the genome of all humans on Earth. Refer to the fact that all Oriental-type races, whether Chinese, Cambodians, Inuit, Okanagan or Hopi Indians, and all Polynesian peoples, speak of an ancient continent in the Pacific region ruled by Reptilian, Lizard or Dragon overlords, symbolically represented as 7-headed, to represent seven races, organised into seven castes. Refer to the descriptions of vast underground systems of tunnels that the refugees of this continent escaped to, to found 'The Underworld', the Sipapuni, Bhogavati, etc. Why does nearly every culture portray a seven or nine level underworld inhabited by Reptilian beings? Refer to the fact that all Sumerian-spawned cultures, such as the Medians, Scythians, Khazars, Magyars, Babylonians, Egyptians, Indians, possess a race-based caste system which the Sumerians said they based upon the hierarchy of their forefathers, the Dragon Gods. Explain why the races that possess these Reptilan traditions have copper-based pigments, higher incidences of caudal appendages at birth, and other reptilian characteristics, examples being the Australian Aborigines, the Oriental races, and Indians. Why is Indian folklore, mythology, and history, totally rife with bluebloods, Sarpa, reptilian gods, underworlds inhabited by Naga, and other correlated information. Why do the most ancient histories from every part of the world refer to two continents, now called "Lemuria" and "Atlantis", which possessed advanced technology, as outlined in these texts.

There is such a mass of evidence, of proof, that there was a Reptilian civilisation on this planet at some point in ancient history, that it truly cannot be denied.

Furthermore, I will tell you that I know for a fact that there indeed was such a civilisation. The Earth was colonised by beings from the Draco star system, who brought their genetic stock with them, those being dinosaurs, avians, and other Reptilian animals. Reptiles are a paraphyletic group, and do not originate on the same planet as mammals. They are distantly related, but that is another topic to be discussed at another time.

When the Draco colonised, the devastation caused by the gravitic liason between their artifical comet, now called Venus, and the Earth, brough landforms to the surface for the first time. Previously all of the Earth was covered in ocean, ranging from deep to shallow waters that covered most of the continents nearly completely. There were only amphibian-type lifeforms on the Earth at that time, as evidence by the fossil record. A mass extinction of crustaceans and shallow-sea lifeforms occured. This is also shown quite clearly. Suddenly, reptilian animals and their predecessors began to appear as a result of Draco colonisation of the newly formed continents, particularly one in the Pacific Ocean region. This continent was the largest ever to exist, and is now referred to as Lemuria. Parts of it are rising to the surface as a result of geological activity in the Hawaiian and Indonesian regions, including the Ache earthquake. Lemurian Temples depicting reptilian gods and figures still exist, as well as massive pyramids, on raised land in the Pacific.

Humans also colonised this planet, from the Pleiades star cluster, bringing with them many mammalian lifeforms, from which today's mammals partially evolved. They colonised a continent, now known as "Atlantis", which existed in the Atlantic Ocean region. This is not only documented in ancient accounts from many Native American tribes, including the Mayans and Aztec, who referred to it as Atzlan, but is also discussed by the Plejaren (Pleiadeians) themselves, in their face-to-face contact with the Swiss Farmer, "Billy" Eduard Albert Meier. His contact case is proven fact. He is in contact with humans from the Pleiades. Refer to Theyfly.

The Atlanteans and Lemurians eventually came to war with one another. There were also human colonists from Mars. These cultures engaged in world war, destroying much of their civilisations. This first World War resulted in the destruction, by ELF pulse weapons (the Atlantean military), of the substrata of the Lemurian continent. Remnants of the continent are still geologically unstable as a result of the nature of this destruction. New landforms and mountains were caused by the massive shockwaves of this crumbling continental destruction. An example of a remnant of Lemuria would be the West Coast of California, west of the San Andreas fault. This area collided with its adjacent tectonic plate, creating the mountains in that region, as well as raising the mid-ocean ridge, the Rocky Mountains, which were at that time highly volcanic, above the ocean surface. This is why one can find seashells and ocean artefacts in the foothills of the Rockys in Colorado and Wyoming. Anyone who lives in Colorado Springs can attest to this.

The Reptilians from Lemuria who survived the destruction of their continent fled to Inner Earth colonies, in a massive underground tunnel system that spans the globe. Some Reptilians still exist in the Inner Earth.

The remaining Atlanteans destroyed most, but not all of the dinosaurs in their territory (except for relatively small avians and reptiles). However, dinosaurs still exist in the Inner Earth. This is the source of the "pulsating tissue" that is supposedly being extracted from 68 million year old T-Rex and other fossils.

Earth-humans, that is, you and I, or rather, our ancestors, were created through a series of experiments after a treaty was formed between the Lemurian survivors and the Atlanteans. This was presided over by a council, called Hatona, of beings from Andromeda called Krel. A technological race from Sirius A was also involved. Many experimental humanoids were created and destroyed. This is the reason for all of the bizarre hominids that are being found, including the Flores Man. Cro Magnon was a prototype of the current Earth-man, and the remnants of this experiment exist today as the Basque people. They trace their history back to the Cro-Magnon.

Atlantis too sank over time as a result of the damage done by their own weaponry in an attempt to control the Inner Earth Reptilians. Eventually only a few large islands remained, but many small islands still exist as remnants (including most of the Caribbean Islands). By 11,000 B.C.E., the Atlanteans comprised a rather insane group of scientists who were toying with splicing just about everything they could get their hands on with anything else (shades of today's experiments). They created the creatures now known as Bigfoot (Bear-human) and Werewolf (wolf-human), Merfolk (dolphin-human), and others, through gene splicing using magnetics and Boson harmonics to transmit and alter DNA from one animal to another. These beings were used for slave labour, and as guardians to their scientific temples. This culture was the predecessor to Egypt. This is is the origin of the Anubis, which is the Egyptian word for the wolf-human hybrids. Currently Canadian researchers are uncovering physical proof that remnants of the Sasquatch race still exist in the wild, and that their DNA matches the human sequence, as well as that of the grizzly bear (Ursus arctos horribilis).

Historical texts from Atlantis are available for the few and privy in the Vatican's underground libarary, which spans 18 square miles. Former Vatican curators attest to this. Much of history was covered up and rewritten by the Vatican during the Middle Ages. During the Crusades, libraries were invaded and texts stolen and deposited in hidden locations, including that library.

The New World Order government, which now controls most of the Earth, are also very intent on releasing this information only 'at the right time'. If the population knew of any of this, it would destroy most religious institutions as well as invoke major questioning of current government and corporate policies which mimick the mistakes of the Atlanteans and Lemurians. The New World Order is essentially run by the same 313 royal families who helped cover up Atlantis and Lemuria originally, via their organisation, the Vatican. The 13 most powerful families in 1400 are still in control, and can be named, and documented to control most of the institutions that really matter, those that print the money, control public education, and control the media. They also have extensive influence in government through their frontmen, and control most intelligence agencies thoroughly, having founded the Mossad, CIA, and NSA to name a few. This is documented history, and is hardly hidden by anything other than ignorance. These 13 families were also the founders of various publically exposed conspiratorial schemes, such as the Order of the Illuminati. Secret Societies were the old-fashioned forms of intelligence agencies.

If people would turn off their TVs, take their kids out of public school, and get a grip on reality, things would change rather rapidly. The New World Order knows this, and are making an effort to implement more sophisticated mind-control technology to keep the population in line. They are also foolishly involved in their own internal war at the time, between two of the 13 families, and each of their allies. These families can be named as Rothschild and Windsor (Saxe-Coburg-Gotha). Watch them, and their pawns, and you will understand many of current events that otherwise appear chaotic--to the unwashed masses.

Do not be quick to dismiss any of this. Also, do not be quick to accept it. Just research for yourself. Never offhandedly dismiss or accept anything. Get out of the "label this, label that" mentality, and think clearly, methodically, and logically. Also, I will warn you, again, turn off your TV! Throw it out if you have to! TV is good for nothing but subliminal mind-control. TV news does not even report what is in the newspapers, and admittedly peddles government-funded propaganda (fake newscasts).

If you wish to refer to a source of information on the New World Order, a good synopsis of some of their recent criminal activities is Paranoid Shift by Michal Hasty.

If the programming trigger, "conspiracy" flashes in your mind whenever you attempt to consider the possibility that there are criminal syndicates attempting to control a world government, I recommend the deprogramming article, also by Hasty, Conspiracy and Other Theories.

There is a massive attempt to control the masses at this time, through mind-control and propaganda. I would recommend not to accept these lies. Facing the truth and dealing with it has always been a better solution than ignoring and dissociating. Dissociating from 'bad' stimuli is also a symptom of the common mental illness, dissociative identity disorder, which is induced in specifically as well as now, generally programmed individuals.

Investigate everything I say. Don't take anything from any source for granted. Be very wary of mainstream, corporate, and government news sources. Anonymous


 * I will not mock you or ridicule your ideas, but I believe you are being excessively paranoid. Reptilian humanoids may or not exist on this planet. There may or may not be a Reptilian conspiracy on earth. What I aim to do here is verify information that enters the article, because I want to present information to the public that is as close to accurate as possible. Decius 00:01, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * When did I ever say that there was a "Reptilian conspiracy"? I said that a Reptilian humanoid race existed in this planet's past, and some remnants exist today of this race.  I said that corrupt human organisations work to keep the Lemurian civilisation a secret until "the appointed time".  That was about the closest thing to conspiracy that I discussed.  Well, if you wish to present information that is as close to the article as possible, I recommend you investigate the Draco presence on this planet.  Research all the cultures around the region where Lemuria once existed.  You will find an undeniable common theme.  I know what I know about the Draco.  You will have to discover for yourself the truth.


 * I'm also very careful when I remove information from the article. For example, I did not remove the info about the Australian aboriginal myths (User:Lacrimosus removed it), though I have not been able to find the source for those claims. I have to get some more books on Australian aboriginal folklore. Decius 00:12, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, it would appear that you are open-minded for even being involved in editing this article. I commend you for your efforts to search for truth.  I support you in your journey to discover the ancient history of the Earth.  An interesting source you may want to consider are Hindu legendary and historical texts, which describe, although altered, some of the history of the previous human civilisations on Earth which possessed high technology.


 * Also, what's the source for the claim that Chinese myths tell that Huang-Ti looked like a reptile when he was born? Whoever adds such info into the article has to realize that he/she needs solid references for obscure claims. Decius 00:15, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't know what source the writer of this article employed, but I do know that Huang-Ti was called "Dragon-Faced" when he was born, as a result of his Reptilian DNA. The original Chinese society was created by the remnants of Lemuria.  These reptilian beings created the Oriental race in that region.


 * And a lot of what you say is extremely unlikely. Reptiles and birds evolved on earth, I'm sure of that.


 * That is incorrect. Birds have had some evolution and engineering on Earth, but they originate in the Draco star system.


 * Transitional fossils from fish to amphibian to reptile to mammal (and also from reptile to bird) have been found.


 * Many hybrids were created in the ancient pastI, but natural evolution from reptile to mammal is impossible. In fact, reptiles were created originally by a group of scientists from the Sirius star system from chordate DNA, which originated in Lyrae, where humans first existed.  Reptiles were created from mammals, not the other way around.


 * I do not share your exaggerated fear of reptiles (but I don't 'love' reptiles either).


 * When did I say I feared reptiles? They are a valid part of physical reality and the ecosystem like anything else, although mammals and reptiles are an odd couple on a single planet.


 * All reptiles known to science are dumb creatures,


 * That is a very incorrect statement. There are birds (now classified with reptiles as a paraphyletic group) who can understand thousands of words of English, and crocodilian reptiles are quite intelligent.  Most reptilian animals are not even available for study by most scientists as a result of the destruction of most of them by the Atlanteans.


 * It is extremely unlikely that any reptile developed an intelligence close to human level on earth.


 * That is not correct. Stenonchysaurus possessed the intelligence of a primate, and was a reptilian animal.


 * If reptilian humanoids came to earth from another planet in the past, I'm sure that they did not "seed" reptiles and birds on earth, which already had them. Decius 00:42, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Earth did not already have reptiles and birds before the Draco arrived here. It was a water planet incapable of sustaining any life of the land-dwelling sort, and only possessed amphibians and oceanic animals.


 * I'm trying to put your scenario into a cohesive hypothesis. I am sure that it will begin to fall apart under scrutiny. Okay: Reptilian humanoids from the Draco constellation settled on earth back in the Paleozoic era, bringing reptiles & birds with them; they established a civilization on a landmass that once existed in the Pacific Ocean.


 * That is not what happened. The geological 'era' system is highly flawed.  It assumes that there were not massive upheavals, when there were (Lemuria and Atlantis).  This is what caused dinosaurs to be buried under high-pressure strata of rock, not millions of years of sitting in one place.


 * Even this base hypothesis runs into huge problems: 1) there is no indication that reptiles and birds did not evolve on earth;


 * Perhaps I was not clear enough. Reptiles, which include Birds, Dinosaurs, Pterasauroids, Squamates, and other animal forms, did not evolve on Earth, but were brough here from the Draco star system.


 * 2) the Pacific ocean-bed does not show to geologists any indication of a sunken continental landmass. Decius 00:54, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * This is false. The Pacific Ocean shows extensive proof of a continent existing in this region.  Most geologists, but certainly not all, look for the wrong signs of continental formation.  The deep lines created by ELF pulse weapons can even be seen near South America.  Furthermore, the temples of the Lemurians are still in some cases intact at the bottom of the ocean.  Geologists originally labelled these as 'natural formations', and I do not blame them, as they are taught to look for 'natural formations'.  However, a team of divers uncovered statues, hewn rock, and other proof that these formations were not 'natural'.  This included statues of Reptilian gods.


 * 3)The Draco constellation got is name (Draco means 'dragon' in Latin, as you may know) because, as seen by people on earth, the constellation has a snaky, serpentine arrangement. Yet this is based on how earth-people see it in the late Cenozoic era. Anyway, isn't it unlikely that reptilian humanoids would happen to come from a constellation that is shaped like a serpent and called 'Draco'? Such a cheesy, unlikely, predictable coincidence is surely wrong. The Draco constellation would be the last place I'd look. Decius 01:06, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * All constellations are illusions of the human mind, and were named originally for symbolic reasons by the ancient Sumerians. Their priestly caste knew of the races existing in these various parts of the sky.  Draco does not look like a dragon to the naked eye in the conditions they would see the sky in.  It barely looks like one to us now, with all of our city lights.  The entire mythological idea of "Dragons" originates with the Draco to begin with.  Attempt to conjure an explanation for why the West Irish, or any other people living in an area with no reptiles, would come up with the idea that the 'underworld' is ruled by gigantic winged reptilian beings.  Why reptiles, in an area where there are none?  Why a lion in China, where there were none at the time?  It is because of the symbolism of these creatures.  The Dragon symbolises the Draco.  That is its origin.  The lion symbolised the Lyraen human race at that time, and thus was employed in this way.


 * Real life rarely involves such comic book coincidences. Decius 01:12, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I do not read comic books, so I can't comment on what this 'coincidence' might be like. I can say however that there are really no coincidences in the popular sense, and that there was nothing coincidental about the bringing of life to the Earth.


 * I would strip down and rephrase the hypothesis like this: Reptilian humanoids from an extra-terrestrial location arrived on earth in the past. That's possible. There are no contradictions or unlikely elements there. Unfortunately, that is still an untestable hypothesis, for which no solid evidence exists. Decius 01:22, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * You don't experimentally test historical theories. You gather evidence in support of them, and there is indeed ample proof, which you can find if you research, regarding the Draco presence on this planet.  A simple thing to do would be to merely reason about the origins of Reptilian/Draconian symbolism on this planet.


 * And it wouldn't surprise me that behind these myths & tales there is indeed a great deception, perpetrated by beings of a totally different nature, next to which a reptilian humanoid would be a small fry.


 * This is not the case. There is a deception to cover up the meaning of reptilian symbolism and myths throughout the world.  This is perpetrated by humans who wish to control the masses through religion and political parties.  If people knew the true ancient history of the Earth, they would not fall for that sort of control.


 * For all you know, it might be a smoke-screen for something else, and perhaps "they" want you to believe that reptilian humanoids run the earth, when in fact they don't run shit.


 * I don't know where you get the idea that "reptilian humanoids rule the earth". This idea that there is some kind of deception within a deception sounds a little paranoid to me, and far to extrapolated.  Plus, I know that the Draco exist, and that they are not very happy about what humans did to their civilisation on this planet in the ancient past.  The New World Order is trying to keep them under wraps because they do not want people panicking in the event that the know that there are non-humans on Earth, among other reasons, some of which I have already outlined.  They have even gone so far as to set forest fires around entrances to the Inner Earth, such as in Colorado, Wyoming, and California.


 * But since you believe that they do, you are giving "them" power. You might remember the tradition that the Devil is the Prince of Lies. Decius 01:40, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * The Devil is an ancient symbolism of the mass consciousness that moves humans into an ego-based mindset and enslaves them in a loop of physical reality without conscious awareness of their true selves. It is not to be viewed as a sort of mischievous little imp who hides beneath your bed.  I will say that the Illuminati, the elite of the New World Order, worship Babylonian gods that could be construed as 'demonic', such as during their Bohemian Grove festival to Moloch.  This is part of their religion.


 * I know from my own studies into medieval Witchcraft that the devils and demons love to emphasize that "the Devil and his fallen angels rule the earth", thus making mankind feel as if the Devil has more power than he in fact has.


 * The Bible says that "Satan is the God of this World". I should assume that that, too, is some sort of trickery by Satan?  It is symbolic of the nature of physical reality as a web which can entangle soul-personalities.


 * It is much more likely that these reptilian manifestations are not flesh & blood extreterrestrials, but paraphysical beings who for all intents and purposes may be classed as demons.


 * The idea of demons and monsters comes from the physical Draco reptilians and their non-physical, Astral gods. These beings are not so much 'evil', as predatory.  The Astral Reptilians feed on the energies of humans and other physical beings for sustenance.


 * But you can believe that we are dealing with "reptiloids from the Draco constellation" if such a "rationalization" is appropriate for your mind. Decius 02:17, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I know that there are non-physical beings, some of them 'malevolent', and that there are elaborate Crafts designed to conjure these beings from the Astral Plane. However, primitive interpretations have purposely been added by groups such as the Vatican to mislead humankind as to the truth about all of this.  I recommend you study this subject, and extensively research information regarding the Draco and their reptilian civilisation, before you come to any conclusions. Anonymous


 * I won't make the article conform to my views, but I'm sure it is closer to the truth.


 * Sure that what is closer to the truth? Your views?  You should, I would suggest, investigate and evolve, rather than conforming to old 'views'.


 * The scenario of physical extraterrestrial reptilians from the Draco constellation does not explain the situation.


 * It is the fact of the matter that the Draco were the original bipedal physical colonists of this world. I strongly recommend seriously investigating this, rather than offhandedly denying it because it conflicts with imprinted belief systems.


 * Sorry if I misrepresented you on some points. I don't know what the situation is in your case, but an atavistic fear of reptiles seems to be behind much of this modern reptilian conspiracy literature. And the Draco constellation does look like a serpent. Decius 03:29, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * That sounds like a way to explain away information that you don't like, in my opinion. Atavistic fear of reptiles is a result of the genetic imprint of the destruction of Lyrae by reptiles.  Lyrae was the birthplace of all human races.  Refer to the Meier case.  I would say that, although some react fearfully toward information about reptilians, the origin of the 'reptilian conspiracy literature' is not something as vague as 'atavistic fear', but is the masses of evidence of the Draco civilisation, misinterpretations of it, and the revelations of researchers in the late '90s, such as David Icke, that the royalties of Eurasia originated as a creation of the Draco remnants of Lemuria in ancient Sumeria.


 * Let's see, they have had interstellar space flight technology for over 300 million years, but they can't prevent information about thier constellation of origin {"Draco") from leaking into pop culture, paperbacks, and websites across the internet?


 * The Reptilians on this planet are the remnants of an ancient civilisation that was destroyed. The Illuminati have done as much as they can to cover up the existence of the Draco civilisation, and the fact that it is not mainstream knowledge is a testament to the fact that, for the time being at least, it is working quite well.  Humans are rather difficult to control, if they have their natural ability to think independently, as well.  That is why the Illuminati are very bent on using mind-control to control the masses.  Also, the Reptilians are only one of dozens of races intimitely involved in the genetic experiment that constitutes this planet.  Due to the Hatona treaty, they are not allowed to interfere with our culture to that extent.  There are other races, including advanced human civilisations, impeding such a thing from happening.  I would say we have much more to worry about when considering the incredible stupidity and mass insanity of Earth-humanity at this time, than when considering the Inner Earth Draco.  Anything that happens on Earth, regardless of what group it involves, is the result of the mind-patterns of those who live in and on the Earth, which are, for the most part, the Earth-humans who are now severely degenerating from what they once were, into a state of unsustainable insanity which, if unchecked, will create enormous destruction.  The Plejaren have warned us of this.  Ex-NWO members have warned us of it, and by God, if one cannot see the insanity of the masses at this time, and the megalomania of their leaders, they might as well not have eyes at all.


 * Well, I guess we have nothing to fear from such inept morons then. Decius 03:53, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I can see how you let yourself come to such conclusions, as they are 'comfortable' conclusions, but they are far from correct. I will say that many 'reptilian' researchers do not consider the mind-pattern of Earth-humanity which has allowed this to happen, so much as they like to blame the elite, or the Draco, for the current situation on Earth.  If the citizenry stopped the madness from continuing, there would be no madness. Anonymous


 * I'm not approaching this subject from the viewpoint of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or any other established religion. Nevertheless, paraphysical beings ("demons") are behind a lot of the myth-traditions. And they are not quite reptiles, nor do they need spaceships. Decius 04:03, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree that there are 'paraphysical' beings, and that their energy, or group minds, or intelligences, or whatever they are (given the specific entity/entities), have a lot to do with the religious traditions and symbolisms of ancient peoples. However, there are many very physical legendary entities which cannot be in any sense explained as being 'paraphysical'.  Take the pilots of Vimana or the Naga in India.  These beings are described as using technology.  An Astral deity would have no need for physical technology. Anonymous


 * Alright, I don't know what makes you so convinced of your views. The situation is knotted up. I have room in my theories for both paraphysical beings and extraterrestrial biological creatures. E.T.'s may be behind some myth-cycles, and I've earmarked them in my studies. Most myth-cycles do not have E.T.'s behind them. Other myth-cycles do not have anything behind them except for human imagination. I don't try to make all mythology fit one notion, which is a trap that too many reptilian conspiracy theorists fall into, judging by most of their books & websites. Decius 04:23, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Guys what are you talking about, no Reptile beeings in south America? Try to read some of there mythology... but here is a bit

Quetzalcoatl the feathered serpent

Xiuhcoatl the fire-snake or Turquoise Serpent

If you search further in ancient mythologies, you will find alot of dragon serpent creatures gods or demons in most cases Evil...

A good question, where does the idea come from that they are evil?

Ashoka, dont know how many of you know about this Ancient Indian Emperor....

Ashoka was also green with an scale like skin.

Another thing, in mythology there are alot of strange beeings cross breed animals, Grifons and stuff, the idea behind them actualy from genetical experiments from a long lost time?`

Dravidian the cannibals.....

Could there be a posibility that dravidians in fact are Natufians?

A good author on religious mather is Mircea Eliade...

A good thing to study is the old Hunter gatherer culture, in the Neolit and Paleolit and there Cannibalistic Rituals(they where actually not cannibals cause of the love for human flesh, but it was cause of magical and religious purposes they eat us).

Does the Moloch rituals other and cannibalistic rituals, come from the ancient hunters?

Went a trip from hunters to dravidians and natufians, came thru the caananaits, took a swing at the mongols,and ended in the end as Illum rituals?

Greetings The Donkey