Talk:List of rivers of Yorkshire

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I would appreciate thoughts on improvements to the page and on how I have decided on the calculating the lengths of rivers that are not wholly within the county boundary. I have based this on the format used by a former featured list, so hopefully this will not need too much tweaking. Thanks in advance.Rimmer1993 (talk) 17:27, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Need to add a name parameter to the coord template calls so that they show up with an appropriate description, e.g.  name=Mouth of River Doe . It may also be worth adding in those for which we do not yet have articles such as River Foulness. Keith D (talk) 19:35, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Qualification
Some rivers are called things other than river. E.g. Cod Beck in Thirsk. I would like to make the qualification either it is called river X, regardless of size or that on the 1:50000 maps, it is shown as light blue between 2 dark lines, like most rivers are shown. Are there any objections. Op47 (talk) 22:00, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Not really sure what it is that you are proposing, the article states All officially designated Rivers are listed below, which probably means all watercourses that are called a river. Cod Beck, North Yorkshire in this context would be considered a stream, so is not included. Are you saying that it should be expanded to be a list of rivers and streams? The lead is confusing though, in that it says there are 25 rivers over 20kms, which makes you think only those 25 are included...Jokulhlaup (talk) 11:33, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Firstly, no I am not as such saying the article should be expanded to be a list of rivers and streams. If that were so then I suspect the article would have about 1000 entries, which is too many. What I am say is that Cod Beck is a river that has been improperly omitted from the list. This makes me suspect there are others like it. I would like to make my case as to why and the explain how I propose to fix the matter.
 * 1) According to the article river, there is no defined size limit between a river and a beck (say), so there has to be an arbitrary distinction.
 * 2) The statement All officially designated Rivers are listed below implies that there is an officially appointed authority that determines the set of official rivers and there is a list. If so, then the poulation of this list is a "slam dunk". However, if that's the case then there needs to be a reference as to who the authority is and their list. There are several rivers named "River X" that have been omitted and without the reference, we cannot determine if they have been omitted in error or because they are not official rivers. On the other hand, the inclusion of the Gypsey Race is a surprise.
 * 3) If the criteria is that the river is called "river x" the it needs to be stated somewhere so that editor know what is in and what is out. If that is the meaning of all official rivers then the statement is untrue. At present there is at least 1 (River Burn) that is missing. I will add it when I get a chance.
 * 4) Anomalies that suggest a river need not be called "River X" to be considered a river for our purpose. The river Spen is known locally as Spen Beck and is so small, it is not even named on my map. It shown on the 1:50000 map as a single blue line for much of its length. Cod Beck, North Yorkshire on the other hand is called a river in its article. It is shown on the 1:50000 map as light blue in dark blue casing. i.e. it is a river that for some odd reason been called X Beck.
 * 5) There is a river Loxley, the next vally up contains a similar sized er. candidate river which is called Ewden Beck. As I said above the distinction is arbitrary. We however need an objective criteria.
 * As I suggested above, a clear cut and easy to apply criteria would be to say if a candidate river is shown on the OS 1:50000 in light blue with dark Blue case for at least part of its length, then it is a river and is eligable to be included in this article. I would like to remove the bit about official rivers because unless we can identify the authority and list then it is rather meaningless. Does that clear things up? Op47 (talk) 22:42, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
 * You have made a lot of good points there, I have asked Rimmer1993 if he could contribute as he created the original article...Jokulhlaup (talk) 17:40, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Jokulhlaup, thanks for inviting me to comment on this discussion. If i remember correctly, the list started from the templates i found at the bottom of other Yorkshire river articles. As has been pointed out, the definition of what is a river is debatable and differs widely, so Op47 your point number 1 is accepted. I have to say that i probably just started with those that had "river" in the name. Therefore, Cod Beck, along with other candidates, were just omitted, no more no less. As for why i put the "officially designated" in the lead paragraph. Hands up, i can't remember, it may have been picked up out of one of the reference articles i was using at the time. I am more than happy that the phrase be removed in its entirety. After all, this is open to be edited by anyone, and i learnt long ago not to get possessive about anything i created on here.
 * To address Jokulhlaup's point on the opening sentence; I agree that it does not read right. May i suggest that it start with "Of the rivers listed below...."?
 * The remaining points raised by Op47 seem to be variations on a similar theme about the criteria and citing some of the anomolous examples and it is a quite reasonable argument. So to get to the crucial point of what, if any, should be the defining criteria for inclusion, may i point to the Environment Agency website, where they declare that they are the arbiters of what is to be designated a "Main River". It does include those waterways that do not contain the word "River" in them. Before you get your hopes up for an easy to use list; sorry, it is a map which is subject to change, but see what you make of it. As I have said previously, i have no real preference, but would support the view Op47 puts forward that it would be counter productive to list all the really small streams etc. For that matter it could be asking for trouble if was suggested that it was limited to those waterways that had a Wikipedia article, as we could find a lot stub articles being generated that would never develop. Finally you may want to get the view of Keith D, who looks after the Yorkshire Project.Rimmer1993 (talk) 18:02, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the honest reply, if I understand it then this 'should' be a list of main rivers that are named as rivers as well, which seems sensible. I would be interested in Keith D's view as well...Jokulhlaup (talk) 15:31, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
 * So your summation is correct for what we have now. What i think Op47 argues is that some waterways that are not named as "river" should be included too. I agree, but i suggested the criteria could be based upon the Main River map at the Environment Agency. Does that help?Rimmer1993 (talk) 16:06, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The only problem with using main rivers is that you will get other watercourses that are not named as rivers. this list from Derbyshire (I couldn't find anything for Yorkshire) includes a lot of brooks, that people would not think of as rivers. For Yorkshire this would include the Cod Beck, North Yorkshire for example...Jokulhlaup (talk) 15:20, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree. In fact I don't think main river is a suitable qualification. As an example, the River Cover is not a main river and yet the unnamed stream at is. The designation main river is something for the purposes of the environment agency and is not intended to arbitrate what is a river or not a river for our purposes. Given Rimmer1993's response, I would prefer an objective qualification based on size. It may be a good idea to have a column for a river being a main river. Op47 (talk) 12:51, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * After a bit of looking, I think the blue line method that you are suggesting was used for the List of rivers of England, which would make it consistent, and acceptable. So all the ones you have suggested below should be in the England list as well...Jokulhlaup (talk) 14:40, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I did mean Tutt. I will start adding the others when I can. I have also found that the unnamed river is Bradford Beck and it has a substantial article. Op47 (talk) 15:18, 13 May 2016 (UTC)


 * For info, if my criteria were adopted then I would expect the following to be added:
 * Arkle Beck,
 * Armathwaite Gill,
 * Ashfield Sid Beck,
 * Barben Beck,
 * Barney Beck,
 * Birkdale Beck,
 * Bishopdale Beck,
 * Cod Beck,
 * Costa Beck,
 * Cowling Beck ?,
 * Cowside Beck,
 * Cragg Brook,
 * Crooks Beck,
 * Earby Beck,
 * Eastburn Beck,
 * Eller Beck,
 * Eshton Beck,
 * Ewden Beck,
 * Frodingham Beck,
 * Gayle Beck,
 * Gayle Beck,
 * Green Field Beck,
 * Harden Beck,
 * Haw Beck,
 * Hebden Water,
 * Hodge Beck,
 * Keasden Beck,
 * Kelk Beck,
 * Kingsdale Beck,
 * Little Beck,
 * Murk Esk,
 * Oughtershaw Beck,
 * Unnamed out of Bradford, (Bradford Beck)
 * Walden Beck,
 * West Beck,
 * Whitsundale Beck,
 * Widdale Beck,
 * Op47 (talk) 15:04, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

On the other hand, this is a list of the main rivers:
 * Austwick Beck,
 * Balne Beck,
 * Barmston Main Dtrain,
 * Bedale Beck,
 * Beverley and Barmston Drain,
 * Bielby Beck,
 * Brompton Beck,
 * Broughton Beck,
 * Broughton Bridge Beck,
 * Bur Dike,
 * Burniston Beck,
 * Catchwater Drain,
 * Clifton Beck,
 * Cock Beck,
 * Cod Beck,
 * Costa Beck,
 * Driffield Canal,
 * Eastburn Beck,
 * Ella Dyke,
 * Eller Beck,
 * Eshton Beck,
 * Fen Beck,
 * Fenay Beck,
 * Frodingham Beck,
 * Gypsey Race,
 * Hall Dyke,
 * Harlsey Beck,
 * Haw Beck,
 * Hebden Water,
 * Hedon Haven,
 * Hessle Haven,
 * Hodge Beck,
 * Holbeck,
 * Holderness Drain,
 * Kelk Beck,
 * Keswick Beck,
 * Kettles Beck,
 * Keyingham Drain,
 * Little Don River,
 * Little Don River (001),
 * Long Preston Beck,
 * Market Weighton Canal,
 * Marrs Beck,
 * Mebble Brook,
 * Mill Beck,
 * North Beck,
 * Oak Beck,
 * Old Howe,
 * Osbaldwick Beck,
 * Pickering Beck,
 * Pocklington Canal,
 * Potto Beck,
 * Rathmell Beck,
 * Rathmell Beck (001),
 * Red Beck,
 * River Aire,
 * River Calder,
 * River Colne,
 * River Crimple,
 * River Dearne,
 * River Derwent,
 * River Don,
 * River Dove,
 * River Esk,
 * River Foss,
 * River Foulness,
 * River Greta,
 * River Holme,
 * River Hull,
 * River Humber,
 * River Laver,
 * River Leven,
 * River Loxley,
 * River Nidd,
 * River Ouse,
 * River Ribble,
 * River Riccal,
 * River Rivelin,
 * River Rother,
 * River Ryburn,
 * River Seven,
 * River Sheaf,
 * River Skell,
 * River Skirfare,
 * River Spen,
 * River Swale,
 * River Tame,
 * River Tees,
 * River Tutt,
 * River Ure,
 * River Washburn,
 * River Wenning,
 * River Went,
 * River Wharfe,
 * River Wiske,
 * River Worth,
 * Scorborough Beck,
 * Scorton Beck,
 * Scurf Dike,
 * Sea Cut,
 * Selby Dam,
 * Shiny Brooke,
 * Skeeby Beck,
 * Skerne Beck,
 * Southburn Beck,
 * Stainfort and Keadby Canal,
 * Swinney Beck,
 * Tang Hall Beck,
 * Thorngumbald Drain,
 * Thornton Beck,
 * Thornton Beck (001),
 * Turker Beck,
 * Unnamed (Addingham),
 * Unnamed (Anlaby),
 * Unnamed (Appleton Roebuck),
 * Unnamed (Beauchief abbey),
 * Unnamed (Beeford),
 * Unnamed (Bentley Common),
 * Unnamed (Bentley),
 * Unnamed (Bentley) (001),
 * Unnamed (Bishop Monkton),
 * Unnamed (Bramham),
 * Unnamed (Carr House Form),
 * Unnamed (Cattleholmes),
 * Unnamed (Chickenley),
 * Unnamed (Clifton),
 * Unnamed (Cononley),
 * Unnamed (Crathorne),
 * Unnamed (Denby Dale),
 * Unnamed (Dewsbury),
 * Unnamed (Fartown),
 * Unnamed (Featherstone),
 * Unnamed (Fitzwilliam),
 * Unnamed (Flockton),
 * Unnamed (Fulwood),
 * Unnamed (Garforth),
 * Unnamed (Gledhow),
 * Unnamed (Glusburn),
 * Unnamed (Heeley),
 * Unnamed (Hellifield),
 * Unnamed (Hepworth),
 * Unnamed (Holgate),
 * Unnamed (Hornsea),
 * Unnamed (Ilkley),
 * Unnamed (Kilnsea),
 * Unnamed (Leconfield),
 * Unnamed (Longwood),
 * Unnamed (Low Moor),
 * Unnamed (Lowthorpe),
 * Unnamed (Luddenden),
 * Unnamed (Marsden),
 * Unnamed (Mirfield),
 * Unnamed (Nafferton),
 * Unnamed (Netheroyd Hill),
 * Unnamed (Normanton),
 * Unnamed (Northallerton),
 * Unnamed (Northfield),
 * Unnamed (Oakworth),
 * Unnamed (Oxenhope),
 * Unnamed (Peasholm),
 * Unnamed (Ramsden Wood),
 * Unnamed (Rawcliffe),
 * Unnamed (Rothwell),
 * Unnamed (Roundhay),
 * Unnamed (Salt End),
 * Unnamed (Seamer),
 * Unnamed (Selby),
 * Unnamed (Selby) (001),
 * Unnamed (Shade),
 * Unnamed (Silsden),
 * Unnamed (Skeffling),
 * Unnamed (Skeffling) (001),
 * Unnamed (Skellow),
 * Unnamed (Skerne),
 * Unnamed (Skibeden),
 * Unnamed (Slaithwaite),
 * Unnamed (Slaithwaite) (001),
 * Unnamed (Slaithwaite) (002),
 * Unnamed (Thorpe Marsh),
 * Unnamed (Todmorden),
 * Unnamed (Totley),
 * Unnamed (Wakefield),
 * Unnamed (Warland),
 * Unnamed (Waterthorpe),
 * Unnamed (Westwick),
 * Unnamed (Whiston),
 * Wath Beck,
 * Watton Beck,
 * Winestead Drain,
 * Winton Beck,
 * Op47 (talk) 18:46, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

New rivers
I have recently added 6 rivers (by name) that have been overlooked. Am I ok to get the rest of the information by tracing out on my OS map? Op47 (talk) 13:44, 6 May 2016 (UTC) Also would it be appropriate to complete the remaining entries in the same way. Op47 (talk) 13:45, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I think that would come under WP:OR, but I’m not sure how it was done for the original article. You may find some useful information on length on this Environmental Agency website. Also, did you mean the River Tutt at Boroughbridge? see this link...Jokulhlaup (talk) 14:42, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
 * As an example, The Aire has acitation to a site that may or may not be reliable. The Ure has no citation and I had no success finding a source online. Our current length is given as 118km. I measured it as 115.5. The article on OR does allow routine calculations by concensus. I am not sure if this is stretching it. Oddly enough, the drainage basins can be sourced. I should also point out that my map is Fugawi, so I am confident of getting a reasonable answer. Op47 (talk) 16:11, 13 May 2016 (UTC)