Talk:List of rulers in Wales/Archive 1

Son of prophecy
Does anyone know what the "claimants to the Son of Prophecy" list is all about? I can't tell who any of them are apart from Henry VII. Certainly they're not "rulers" of Wales. Deb 17:32, 31 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Further to the above, as no one has responded and I can't find any reference to these people, I have deleted the section. Deb 00:01, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

High King of Britain / High King of Wales etc
There are big problems with these sections - many of those listed can by no stretch of the imagination be described as "High King of Britain". There is a great deal of doubt whether some of the earlier names are actually historical figures, and even if they are there is no evidence for giving precise dates for their reigns - Arthur for example. Can anyone give a source for this material? Rhion 11:32, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I have never ever seen any source material reference a "High King of Britain" or "High King of Wales", this artical is rife with inaccurcies. Additionally, no reference material is presented. I shall myself work on corrections with source material as soon as possible.Drachenfyre 08:57, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Good for you! Deb 11:40, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * It was all added by an anon BT user. The last good, i.e. non-Arthurian/Matter of Britain, version is by User:Rhion in December. I've reverted to that one. Angus McLellan 16:08, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Hywel Dda vs. Howell the Good
In my experience, the form Howell the Good is extremely uncommon, and Hywel Dda is more usual in English even than Hywel the Good. That is also the title of the Wikipedia page relating to him, so it seems reasonable to have this form here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Garik (talk) 23:25, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

High King of Wales
I have tagged the above article to be merged here. Can someone who knows about these things make the necessary changes? Thanks, :Supergolden:: 14:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The "High King of Wales" article is a mixture of mythology from Geoffrey of Monmouth and (largely wrong) history. The same content was put into this article and later removed (see the discussion above). I would suggest getting rid of it. Rhion 14:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Difficult to decide whether to just nominate it for deletion. How much of it is actually worth knowing? Deb 16:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I have put it up for deletion. Rhion 08:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Lots of disinformation in this article
The lists of names, especially for the ancient and early medieval rules, are filled with inaccuracies; not only misspellings of names, but utterly arbitrary dates, many of which seem to be derived from an amateur nutjob with no scholarly qualifications whatsoever. The entire thing needs to be re-written or the article should be scrapped. Really embarrassing that fringe nonsense such as this is published as fact on Wikipedia! Cagwinn (talk) 03:04, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Welsh history expert needed
1a. I don't think it's necessary to list the parentage of each king for the Deheubarth and Mongannnwg kings. There should only be names and dates just like other entried on the page. The additional information of parentage is not important at this level. If it needs to be there, the name of the king should be followed by dates and parentage. It's only distracting. If multiple kings ruled at the same time they should be listed on the same line and not on multiple lines with different indentations.

1b. I don't think it's necessary to use transliteration of names from Welsh to English such as "(Welsh rendering of Theodoric)".

2. The link to the list of rulers of Gwynedd is redundant with the list of the same rulers on this page. Should it even exist?

3. There are gaps or overlaps in several cases. Can somebody verify, justify and possibly correct?

4. Under Glywysing I see "Gwrgant ab Ithel the Black (1033 - 1070) Gruffydd ap Llywelyn, prince of Gwynedd (1055–1063)". That does not sound right. Gruffydd ap Llywelyn took over Morgannwg in 1058 so I think 1070 and 1055 should be both 1058.

5. Shouldn't the kingdoms of Brycheiniog, Bluellt and Maelienydd be also listed on this page?

6. I do not think it's necessary to list whether a king ruled on a different area of Wales. Each list should be unique to itself.

7a. Ynyr ap Dyfnwal is followed by "[cy]" which links to a page in Welsh of Ynyr Gwent. This entry is in English so the link should have a version in English or not be there at all.

7b. It's not clear what "Welsh rendering of Honorius" is referring to.

8. I attempted to make improvements and clean up the article but there are so many inconsistencies that I find it impossible to deliver some quality improvements. By the time I got to Deheubarth under Deheubarth I gave up. As an example, Hywel Dda is given as ruling Deheubarth in 920–950 but his own entry shows he was Prince of Deheubarth in 909–950 and died in 948. Clearly, as you can see, it's impossible for me to correlate information and make any contribution.

I hope somebody who really knows the history of Wales can help to clean up this entry because it looks really messy.

ICE77 (talk) 05:36, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

King of Wales title section
This section to discuss edits to the King of Wales title section. Titus Gold (talk) 01:00, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

What I was suggesting earlier was discussing any potential major reverts here which may be avoided if you suggest improvements or changes instead. You're perfectly entitled to make reverts if you wish as per standard Wiki protocol, but I think it would be more constructive to have a discussion and agreement here before any significants reverts if possible. Thanks @DeCausaTitus Gold (talk) 01:04, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Moving kingdom ruler lists to the relevant Kingdom pages
Thoughts of moving kingdom lists to the relevant pages? I also think it's too much info and lists for one article. The list pages List of rulers of Gwynedd and List of monarchs of Powys already exist. The following pages on the kingdoms also already exist: Kingdom of Gwynedd,Kingdom of Powys, Kingdom of Ceredigion + Seisyllwg + Kingdom of Dyfed+ Brycheiniog = Deheubarth, Glywysing + Kingdom of Gwent = Kingdom of Morgannwg (The Kingdom of Morgannwg page I recently separated from Glywysing) Titus Gold (talk) 22:08, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Useful sites
Assorted sources https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/WALES.htm

Annales Cambriae https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Annales_Cambriae/65KlUZI9bvUC?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover

Celtic study book https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Ireland_Wales_and_England_in_the_Elevent/nja0RSLWq-AC?hl=en&gbpv=1

Brut y Tywysogion http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/brut_y_tywysogion.html

Summary Website https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsBritain/CymruPrinces.htm

Brut y Tywysogion - invauable for King references https://journals.library.wales/view/2919943/3012605/#?xywh=-97%2C198%2C2796%2C1844

Images of Kings? (Brut y Brenhinoedd) https://syllwr.llyfrgell.cymru/4396654#?c=&m=&s=&cv=24&z=-0.1091%2C0%2C1.2183%2C1.2555&manifest=https%3A%2F%2Fdamsssl.llgc.org.uk%2Fiiif%2F2.0%2F4396654%2Fmanifest.json&xywh=-891%2C0%2C4654%2C3779

also Brut y Brenhinoedd https://www.llyfrgell.cymru/darganfod/oriel-ddigidol/llawysgrifau/yr-oesoedd-canol/brut-y-brenhinedd#?c=&m=&s=&cv=18&xywh=-764%2C-1%2C4430%2C3768

Titus Gold (talk) 11:16, 26 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Arms citation: http://www.armchairhistory.co.uk/pdf/All-Tribes.pdf Titus Gold (talk) 22:38, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:25, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Arfbais Aberffraw arms (Gwynedd, Llywelyn ap Iorweth, Llywelyn ap Gruffydd).png
 * Arfbais Dafydd ap Gruffydd arms.png
 * Arfbais Deheubarth arms.png
 * Arfbais Morgannwg arms.png
 * Arfbais Owain Glyndwr arms.png
 * Arfbais Powys arms.png
 * Arfbais Rhys ap Gruffydd arms.png
 * Coat of arms of Owain Gwynedd.png
 * Gruffydd ap Cynan personal coat of arms.png
 * Llywelyn ap Gruffudd personal arms.svg
 * Personal oat of arms of Llywelyn Fawr.png
 * Rhodri Mawr personal arms.png

Requested move 29 July 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 09:44, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

List of rulers of Wales → Rulers of Wales – The page includes paragraphs of text and is not just a list any longer. Titus Gold (talk) 18:16, 29 July 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 18:25, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Bit simpler. Page is no longer just a list as it now contains paragraphs of cited text, so I think this new title would be preferred. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 21:39, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Firstly, what you've added into this article is WP:UNDUE and needs to be re-worked. Take for example, Rhodri the Great. He is primarily King of Gwynedd who annexed Powys and Seisyllwg. That's his substantive position as a ruler in Wales. Just because the Annals of Ulster or Brut y Tywysogion gives him a "one off" title doesn't change that. I'll be reverting most of the restructuring of this article at the weekend. While I don't have a problem adding a footnote that some of these rulers have been occasionally attributed a grandiose title, to make that more significant than their regional and real title, breaches WP:NPOV. So, because of that and because none of these rulers were genuinely "rulers of Wales", I object to this change. It is an important and well-established aspect of Welsh historiography that Wales never achieved political unity prior to the Edwardian conquest and it's quite wrong to pretend otherwise by using tenuous and transitory titles attributed to particular rulers for particular purposes in WP:Primary sources. DeCausa (talk) 22:24, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm simply proposing omitting the word "list": please feel free to pick a new page title yourself I don't mind - maybe "Welsh rulers"?
 * If you want to re-word or add to the page, please feel free. I agree that only Gruffydd ap Llywelyn ruled the whole territory of modern-day Wales. The table includes those that held the title "King of Wales". It does not at all imply they held the whole territory of modern-day Wales. In fact, it makes it quite clear in the preceding text that they did not hold the whole territory of modern day Wales. The Annals of Ulster and Brut y Tywysogion are the foundation of our knowledge about the rulers of the Britons and Welsh. It's baffling that you're trying to dismiss them.
 * Do not remove any relevant content without discussion on the talk page first please, thanks. Titus Gold (talk) 22:45, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, no. When you add content as you have been doing and someone removes it, it stays removed until there is consensus to add it.This is explained in WP:BRD and WP:ONUS. It is absolutely incorrect to say "Do not remove any relevant content without discussion on the talk page first" when what's been removed has just been added, I hope you are clear on that.DeCausa (talk) 22:49, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Fair enough if you oppose the page name change.
 * Just to clarify, do either of these suit?
 * A "Welsh Rulers"
 * B "Rulers of Wales" Titus Gold (talk) 00:58, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Survey

 * Support either A or B. Titus Gold (talk) 11:38, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose both (particularly A, which would mean rulers who are Welsh) considering this is essentially what it says on the tin, a very long list. If each group of entries was expanded, the 'article' could rapidly become unwieldly. Sionk (talk) 11:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Neither - The current title is fine, but so would be "List of rulers in Wales". GoodDay (talk) 22:33, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose. It is still in the main a list. Srnec (talk) 04:04, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Majority of the article remains a list, the added text is a recent addition.  Dank Jae  16:51, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose it absolutely still is a list, even with the context in the article. I'd also support GoodDay's recommendation because there were several kingdoms in Wales. cookie monster   755  05:34, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose. It'll only ever be a list because of the difficulty of categorisation. Deb (talk) 09:16, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose as it is still primarily a list, but use B if it is moved.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:54, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose It's a list. Walrasiad (talk) 06:44, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Discussion
Shouldn't a RM tag be at the top of this discussion? Otherwise, the RM template on the page, leads to nothing. GoodDay (talk) 16:19, 29 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for bringing my attention to that, much appreciated. Titus Gold (talk) 18:18, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

The post of First Minister of Wales, used to be called "First Minister in Wales". After its 'move', I argued that Deputy First Minister of Wales be moved from "Deputy First Minister in Wales", in order to match. My argument for page move was opposed then, but the DFM page-in-question was eventually moved. So... I'm not certain about which is preferred here. Is it "of", or "in"? GoodDay (talk) 22:36, 29 July 2022 (UTC)


 * My proposal is simply to remove the word "list". I'm open to both of those options for this page Titus Gold (talk) 01:31, 30 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Relist comment Relisted to get further consideration of the suggestion to change the "of" to an "in"; an extra complication about the scope of the article. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 18:26, 5 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Of. "List of rulers in Wales" does not sound right. Srnec (talk) 04:11, 6 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Let's just be clear what's going on here. Wales was never a single political entity. Sporadically, regional rulers might claim. or be anachronistically attributed a title that was "of Wales". But there are no secondary sources that give much credence to this. has been trying to create an article (previously elsewhere and now here) that tries to advance a POV that such a political entity existed. That's the significance of "of" rather thn "in" Wales. However that's a rather insignificant point of detail. The main issue is that TG has in this article (a) given WP:UNDUE prominence to "king of Wales" (an entirely fanciful title given a handful of times anachronistically by one chronicle) and Prince of Wales which a couple of later rulers of Gwynedd claimed for themselves (b) stripped out all the rulers of the regional kingdoms of Wales, which this articlke was actually about before TG involved himself in it. I've reverted (b) but something has to be done about the WP:UNDUE aspect of (a) as wewll. DeCausa (talk) 21:34, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I totally agree that Wales was only a single political entity under certain rulers and the definition of the territory of "Wales' varied a lot through early medieval history in particular. The titles are historically listed by multiple sources. I moved the "regional kingdoms" as you say to the appropriate pages because I thought they were better suited to those pages. I've started a discussion below to gain consensus after your revert. Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 21:56, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * TBH - We should be considering deleting this page. GoodDay (talk) 07:25, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Don't bother commenting if you don't want to contribute something meaningful or well explained or justified @GoodDay Titus Gold (talk) 15:31, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I haven't decided 'yet', on whether or not to nominate this page for deletion. GoodDay (talk) 15:35, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The page has been around since 11 September 2002. Nominating it for deletion would be absurd. Content issues are content issues. This is a naming discussion. Titus Gold's edits should be discussed in a separate section. Srnec (talk) 00:33, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree. Titus Gold (talk) 01:21, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Removal of myth-based material
At this edit I have reverted to a minimally tweaked last-good-version, from before the addition of extensive OR based on legendary material. There are good places to present fantasies based on Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniae, but Wikipedia is not one of them. Richard Keatinge (talk) 12:59, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Name change, Rulers in Wales
I'd like to suggest that the title of this page should be changed (and redirected) to "List of rulers in Wales". An list of actual rulers of the modern territory of Wales would include every western Roman emperor from Nero to Honorius, Gruffydd ap Llywelyn, and every monarch of England since Edward I of England - nobody else. Comments? Richard Keatinge (talk) 12:57, 15 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Support: very few of those listed ruled the whole of Wales. Rosbif73 (talk) 06:41, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Support: I've always been doubtful about this title. Deb (talk) 07:35, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Support, makes sense, similar to List of rulers in the British Isles etc. Sionk (talk) 11:52, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Duly moved, thanks. Richard Keatinge (talk) 09:54, 17 October 2023 (UTC)