Talk:List of songs recorded by Michael Jackson/Archive 1

Overlinking issues
As several editors have noticed, there is obviously a lot of repetition of names in this article, with Michael Jackson himself writing and producing many of the songs. We do not need a wikilink to the Michael Jackson article every time his name appears. Looking at edit 535981416, which has the edit summary "Removing links", we find that this edit actually INTRODUCES some 20 of these links, as well as a great number of other pointless links to people who are already linked many times. This is simply not needed.

The same could be said for linking album titles, but I'll leave that alone for the time being.


 * When I said "Removing links", I reverted it back to the way it was but before I saved it, I removed the links to the Michael Jackson article. EscapeX (talk) 01:21, 3 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Your series of 3 edits basically just came down to changing all the terms back to "featuring" (see section below). It's been explained before how that term is vague, temporary and promotional. We should use the official credits, especially when they are more descriptive. I'm going to put this question very simply: What have you got against using the words as they appear on the record? I'd really like your answer to this question before I engage in any more debate with you.


 * "Featuring" is the most common way to refer to a featured artist on a song. That's why I use that for this page when I created it. EscapeX (talk) 21:59, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It is odd wording - but I am concerned with why your insisting on linking the names over and over in the article. WP:OVERLINK = "A term should be linked, generally, at most once in an article's lead, perhaps once again in the main article body"Moxy (talk) 08:41, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
 * When I created the page, I linked each article so I whenever I revert the page, the links return just the way it was created but I have now removed all links to Michael Jackson except for the one in the header. EscapeX (talk) 06:40, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Jesus Christ. Why are you being so stubborn? You keep saying "Featuring is the most common way to refer to a featured artist on a song". It's not. At least, not on ANY of the Michael Jackson songs you're talking about. That part's no true I'm gonna say it again. Featuring is not a common word on Michael Jackson songs. I've linked three counterexamples for you. What evidence do you have against this fact? Go away and read the rest of the album covers, and then maybe you might understand why you got banned, and why you will likely get permanenty banned in the near future if you keep ignoring everybody and reverting them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.37.54 (talk) 22:23, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Look in YouTube and iTunes. "Featuring" is the most common way to refer to a featured artist on a song. Stubborn? You're the one who keeps on reverting the pages. Everything was going well until you decide to show up and mess things up. I wasn't the only one who got banned, you also got banned. EscapeX (talk) 06:40, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * THERE's your problem - you're looking at Youtube, which is user-generated and therefore NOT a reliable source. I would explain yet again why the word "Featuring" is vague and transient and not appropriate for songs like The Girl Is Mine, but frankly, I'd just be wasting my time because you have never once digested any of my points, or even made a counter-point. If you own the albums, go and dig them out and READ THE BOOKLET CREDITS. They don't use the word featuring, instead it specifies vocals, remix, guitar, etc. If you don't have the albums, you shouldn't be editing pages like this one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.37.54 (talk) 17:34, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Have you not seen OFFICIAL music videos on YouTube that are uploaded by VEVO or the record company? Those are the videos I'm talking about. Also in iTunes they use "featuring". Look at the back of the MICHAEL album, it says "Featuring Lenny Kravitz". What are you talking about? I have addressed your points. You should just stop editing these pages. EscapeX (talk) 07:51, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

BOTH of you need to stop editing the page right now!!! I need to make clear that you were blocked for Edit warring - not for the content of the edits. Both you and the IP need to talk over edit-waring - we have basic conduct expectations  pls see BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. So both stop editing and work this out here and not in the article space is this clear? If you guys cant resolve the problem on your own get help see Dispute resolution requests. Moxy (talk) 08:08, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Terminology
With guest performers/producers/singers, it makes sense to include a 2-word description of what the person did. We should NOT include the vague term "featuring", especially when this is not a term that is included in the original booklet. To use an example from today, Van Halen played a guitar solo on the song "Beat It". He was not the main guitarist on the song, so we should avoid saying he was (that was Paul Jackson, Jr and Steve Lukather). And we definitely should not credit the song to "Michael Jackson featuring Eddie Van Halen" or other such nonsensical 2000s promotional language. If in doubt, use what the single/album actually says.

Section "Songs recorded as a child"
My question is relating to the need for this section. Firstly, what is the criteria? Age 16 years? Age 18? Solo works? When signed to Sony? It's all a bit ambiguous and arbitrary. I don't think the distinction is needed. If it's simply before/after some cutoff date, then this can be achieved by having one simple list, and then sorting by the Year column. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.37.54 (talk) 22:31, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Going once...
 * Good idea, when exactly was he a child, adolescent or man? That's Original research. Cheers. --Richhoncho (talk) 12:22, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Songs with no original studio album
There are some edits which introduce erroneous information, and so I have removed them. It's important to get this stuff right. This way, the sorting by year column will actually work, instead of having everything bunched together in the 2000s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.220.114 (talk) 18:47, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) First example: "Can't Get Outta the Rain", which was released as a B-side in 1982 and was not included on any album. It does not matter what happens in 2008, the release date must remain as 1982. As such, it's better to leave the album column blank for this song, as putting the name of a later compilation (The Essential Michael Jackson) as the first release is misleading.
 * 2) Second example: "We Are Here to Change the World". Same thing, in that the date should read 1986. The fact that it was included on The Ultimate Collection in 2004 is neither here nor there. Note also, however, that we don't know when the song was recorded, so we must not say that it was "recorded in 1986".
 * 3) Third example: "Someone in the Dark" was released in 1982 on the album E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial, which was released internationally and was a commercial success, selling many copies around the world. It was not "recalled". The fact it was re-released as a filler track on a special edition of Thriller does not mean the song was a 2001 release.
 * Let's not have an edit war over this. All three songs are 1980s songs. meaning that they have an 80s sound and were first available in the 1980s. It's simply wrong to claim they were released in 2008, just because they were included on a later compilation. The fact remains that (1) and (2) were not released on any studio album, and so that column should be left blank as is the case with "Shout" and "What More Can I Give". For (3) the album is the soundtrack for "E.T." Not anything else. You must not change this, as it would be wrong to do so.

That's why there's a "Notes" section to give information about the songs such as if it was used in a film and the availability of rare songs that don't have an original album. Whenever I was creating the article, I knew that were some songs that weren't released on an album. For those songs, the album that it was released on were used and the year the album was released with the notes explaining the background of the song. For example, if "What More Can I Give" were to be released on an album then the album section will have the album it was released on, the year section will have the year the album was released on and the notes section will include that it was recorded in 2001 as a charity song for the victims of the September 11 attacks. "Can't Get Outta the Rain" was released as a B-side and it was released on album in 2008 on The Essential Michael Jackson 3.0. This does not mean it was recorded in 2008 but it does mean that it was released on The Essential Michael Jackson 3.0 and 2008 was year the album was released. "We Are Here to Change the World" was used in Captain EO but it was not released. It was released on The Ultimate Collection in 2004. If it wasn't recorded in 1986 then when else it could've been recorded? "Someone in the Dark" was released on Thriller Special Edition in 2001. It was not a filler track. That was the first Michael Jackson album it was released on. E.T. the Extraterrestrial was withdraw due to legal contract issues with Epic Records. The notes section clearly explains the background of the songs so there's no need to remove any information. EscapeX (talk) 02:47, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "songs that don't have an original album" - Exactly!! If they were not released as part of an album, because they were a B-side, then let's not rewrite history and pretend they were originally released as part of an album. Not everything has to fint into a nice perfect formulaic release pattern. By all means keep the notes that explain the details to the song, and maybe an album rereleases could be part of those notes (although we don't need to include every rerelease - with Ben we would never stop, as it's been on at least 14 compilation albums)
 * Your example of What More Can I Give is a good one. if that was to be on an album next year, we would be wrong to say it was released in 2014. It will always be a 2003 song.
 * "If it wasn't recorded in 1986 then when else it could've been recorded?" Unless you have a source, then it could be any time. 1985? 1984? 1983? etc. If we don't know something, then we cannot include it.
 * "Someone in the Dark" was part of an album in the 80s. It does not matter whether it was a storybook/soundtrack album, or part of MJ's own chronology, or part of a Paul McCartney album, or part of a La Toya Jackson album. That's the first release, which is the only thing that matters for the purposes of this table. And whether they used it later on as a filler track (which is a synonym for bonus track, or "purchase incentive") is neither here nor there.
 * Also, I've not removed anything. The notes include subsequent compilations, if and when they are important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.220.114 (talk) 17:42, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Nobody is rewriting history. The album section includes the album that it was released on and the year section includes the year the album was released on. Nobody is saying that "Someone in the Dark" was recorded in 2001. It simply means that it was released on the special edition of Thriller in 2001. "We Are Here to Change the World" wasn't even released in 1986 even though it used in Captain EO. When a song gets released on an album then that album will be used in the album section. EscapeX (talk) 17:59, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * You're still not quite getting the point. Year should be the initial year of release, so matter what format that was on. Album here implies studio album, rather than the less important compilation album
 * A key thing is that some songs (eg B-sides) are non-album tracks, and as such, the year of release must be the time the single was released. When that song is later included on a compilation, this year should never replace the original
 * Consider the song Only a Northern Song - it was recorded in 1967 (we know this because there are reliable sources that say so). It was included on the movie Yellow Submarine in 1968, and then was released on the soundtrack album in 1969. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.220.114 (talk) 23:26, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Latest outburst from 86.191.161.141
86.191.161.141 - Making disruptive and unnecessary edits is vandalism. Album refers to albums in general. Not all albums in the article are studio albums. If a song appears in a compilation album then we do not leave the column blank. If that was the case, then songs like "One More Chance" would have the album section blank just because it appeared in a compilation album. EscapeX (talk) 00:19, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, I'll bite... The song One More Chance is different, in that


 * 1) It is notably the only new song on the compilation album Number Ones. In fact, it was produced for inclusion on that album
 * 2) However, it was released simultaneously as a single and on this album (at least, they were a week or two apart, as with other lead-singles like Black or White technically being released before the album Dangerous). Therefore the year of release is the same whether we are discussing the CD single or the CD album.
 * Clearly another exception is Michael, which is classed by wikipedia consensus as a compilation, but where all the songs appear for the first time and are treated as new songs, and are released as a standalone "new" album.
 * So as I said, when a song is released much later (especially several years later) on an unrelated compilation album, it does not make sense to rewrite history and retrospectively change the year. And as for your ignorance of the ET album, I'm lost for words.

Latest outburst from EscapeX
EscapeX - Blanking the whole page is vandalism and is not a way to get your point across. It must be stressed that you do not own this article. If you want to work on it, you need to collaborate with other editors.

Please note the points above, namely that:
 * 1) Wikipedia is not a rumor mill, and as such is not the place for speculation or namedropping about who the song was intended to be a duet with, or when it "evolved" from another song
 * 2) Album in this context does mean studio album. This is not to be confused with reissue or compilation album. If a song is a non-album track, then by definition, the album column should be left blank. It's not correct to say a song released in the '80s is from 2001, just because somebody at Sony decided it should be collated together with other songs from a different decade.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.191.161.141 (talk) 16:59, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Orphaned references in List of songs recorded by Michael Jackson
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of songs recorded by Michael Jackson's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "RRHF": From Michael Jackson:  From Bill Withers:  From Janet Jackson:  From Off the Wall:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 11:54, 16 July 2018 (UTC)