Talk:List of sovereign states in Europe by date of achieving sovereignty

Old Conversations
This list is going to be just full of those problems as the Estonia entry mentioned. Which date do we list -the earliest, the most recent, all of them? Rmhermen 14:16, Dec 6, 2003 (UTC)


 * For maximum utility, all of them. We should also mention the dates of existence of historical sovereigns, and possibly turn this into a timeline rather than a table? Morwen 14:19, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)


 * I think maybe the earliest, because there is caountries, who did not recognized Soviet occupation in Estonia. So it would be 24 February 1918.--Egon
 * I like the idea of listing all dates. Also shouldn't this be moved to List of dates of independence of European countries (or maybe Timeline of independence of European countries)? Rmhermen 22:50, Dec 6, 2003 (UTC)
 * Your right the title should indicate this is a list. I've moved it from Date of independence of European countries to List of European countries by date of independence. Goustien (talk) 06:44, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The first date 843 is correct for the name France but not for its political status that precises the actual territories as it has been proclaimed in 1789. This may be the exact year of independance for France in its latest political status--212.3.246.78 18:00, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Arguably, it could be listed as the establishment of the Fifth Republic in 1958 MrWeeble 20:41, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * You're probably thinking of 1792, when the First Republic was established. (France remained a monarchy from 1789-92.) But the First Republic was fundamentally very different from today's French system of government, and it did not last very long, so I think using that date is questionable.


 * Having "independence" in the title looks weird. France became independent in 843?  Independent from the Roman Empire, I suppose!  I think the word 'creation' is more accurate.


 * It may not be ideal in all cases, but I think "independent" is preferable to "creation." These states were not necessarily created from scratch when they became independent.  Many existed as autonomous regions, duchies, etc. before independence.

England & Scotland?
How can you place a date of independence on a country when it was never not independent? England and Scotland didn't exist until hundreds of years after the last occupiers (the Romans) left. Fair enough, for both England and Scotland there are unification dates where smaller Anglo-Saxon kingdoms united to form England and smaller petty kingdoms united to form Scotland; but how can this be labelled "independence" when surely there was nothing and nobody to gain it from? I don't think we should be using the label "independent" to refer to a nation's formation.

What date?
What date of independence should be written here ? When declared or when granted ? Bogdan | Talk 23:38, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

____________________________________________________________

I don't agree with the date of indipendence of switzerland. The old confederacy started in 1291. As wrote on the page "August 1":

1291 - The Swiss Confederation is formed with the signature of the Federal Charter.

Could we please make it right?

Matrixch88 01:39, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Great Britain
I'm not certain the 1603 date is appropriate. My understanding is that while the English and Scottish monarchies were united after that year, England and Scotland remained legally separate countries (with completely separate Parliaments) until the Act of Union of 1707. Most historicians seem to prefer 1707 as the year of union over 1603.


 * That's completely correct. England and Scotland were seperate kingdoms until unification in 1707.  The relationship between Scotland and England before this point was like the relationship between Australia and New Zealand today: two completely seperate countries with the same monarch (in this case Elizabeth II). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.79.195.61 (talk) 23:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

Portuguese independence
Portugal is independent from the Kingdom of Leon since the day that Afonso I of Portugal was proclaimed King, that is July 26 1139 (after the Battle of Ourique). By 1143 this was recognized by the King of León and in 1179 by the Pope. The correct date, therefore, is the one of proclamation and acclamation by the first assembly of the estates-general at Lamego, where he was given the crown from the archbishop of Braga (to confirm the independence) - 1139. The Ogre 16:39, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Factual problems
there are enormous factual and methodological problems with this page. About half of the claims are disputable, and far more explanation is needed to say why these dates are chosen. Nay be better to use neutral dates, such as those used by Norman Davies. (Stpaul 20:15, 13 March 2006 (UTC))

Dissolution of SFR Yugoslavia
Here's the link from European Journal of International Law; there are the opinions and conclusions of Badinter Arbitration Committee. Kubura 11:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Two concepts
This list seems to be confused between two concepts. Is it trying to give the first date on which each "volk" was organised into a separate political structure, or the last date from which each modern state became fully sovereign? For a few countries such as France, the two are arguably the same, but in most cases they differ.

How about splitting the list in two? I think both lists would be useful and can be verified, but at the moment it's just a confused mess.

— FIRE!   in a crowded theatre...  12:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

it is great idea
To show how much you're right just look at an example of Serbia. On this list is listed as the last in Europe, regardless of the medieval principality, kingdom and empire, or contemporary Principality of Serbia and Kingdom of Serbia which is formally recognized at Congress of Berlin in 1878.--89.172.9.143 (talk) 15:21, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

United Kingdom

 * The following discussion is an archived debate from my talk page Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. -- Phoenix (talk) 21:46, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Let's settle this here because this edit war on List of European countries by date of independence‎ is silly.

If you are going to undo what I wrote, please make sure exactly what I wrote before you undo the entire edit, the last edit you undid contained other edits that did not need to be undone.

In the article Kingdom of Great Britain it discusses the argument as to whether the Kingdom of Great Britain was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and thus counts as being the United Kingdom rather than just a predecessor.

Please provide your arguments below.

McLerristarr (talk) 04:31, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually that revert was intentional since no other country listed does what you did, so I was trying to restore. Were you going to do the same for all nations?
 * Talking sounds like a good idea. If you are asking when the UK was formed, then you would simply have to go to the UK's article or the History of the United Kingdom article. Both state that it was 1707. But if you want to bring this to a higher authority I would suggest the WikiProject United Kingdom. -- Phoenix (talk) 07:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, I was going to do it for all the countries, eventually.


 * The first paragraph of the History of the United Kingdom article says:


 * The history of the United Kingdom as a unified sovereign state began with the political union of the kingdoms of England, which included Wales, and Scotland on 1 May 1707 in accordance with the Treaty of Union, signed on 22 July 1706, and ratified by both the Parliaments of England and Scotland each passing an Act of Union. The Union created the Kingdom of Great Britain, which shared a single constitutional monarch and a single parliament at Westminster. Prior to this, the kingdoms of England and Scotland had been separate states, though in personal union following the Union of the Crowns in 1603, with political, administrative and cultural institutions including representative governance, law systems, and distinguished contributions to the arts and sciences, upon which the United Kingdom was to be built. On the new, united kingdom, historian Simon Schama said "What began as a hostile merger would end in a full partnership in the most powerful going concern in the world... it was one of the most astonishing transformations in European history." A further Act of Union in 1800 added the Kingdom of Ireland to create the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.


 * My point is that before the 1800 Act of Union, it was just Great Britain. If you like, we could have both dates and provide an explanation in the notes column. McLerristarr (talk) 08:05, 22 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok I am confused at the moment. You just quoted me a text that says The history of the United Kingdom as a unified sovereign state began with the political union of the kingdoms of England, which included Wales, and Scotland on 1 May 1707... and earlier gave me a link to read that said Occasionally, the Kingdom of Great Britain is given the alternative name of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, which is often shortened to United Kingdom. There is substantial debate over whether the latter name is acceptable. The Treaty of Union refers to the United Kingdom of Great Britain in several places.... My point has been that the UK's formation and creation was with the union of Scotland & England and the links you gave me back this up? History teaches that the UK formation was in 1707 and entire articles on wikipedia agree on this point. Ireland was included in the UK in 1801 but you are not arguing that the UK's formation date should be after Southern Ireland became a republic and the countries name changed to UK & NI? The Louisiana purchase added a great swath of land to the US in 1804 doubling its size... Now you are not suggesting that the US should have its formation date as 1804 or 1959 after Hawaii joined... But you are doing something similar in the case of the UK. -- Phoenix (talk) 03:52, 23 March 2010 (UTC)


 * The paragraph I quoted says "The Union [of 1707] created the Kingdom of Great Britain... A further Act of Union in 1800 added the Kingdom of Ireland to create the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland." I think there is a historical difference between Great Britain and the UK, but it's arguable. I guess you could claim they're basically the same country just with different names. McLerristarr (talk) 10:03, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Ah ok, but in the same paragraph it says "The history of the United Kingdom as a unified sovereign state began with the political union (...) on 1 May 1707"... There seam to be more agreement on 1707 then 1801 since all the articles on the UK all say that is was formed in 1707 and other places like the Times also say that it was created then. Do you want to take this to Talk:United Kingdom or someplace else? -- Phoenix (talk) 11:00, 24 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I say we put it as 1707 and mention somewhere the importance of 1801. We could talk about it more on Talk:List of European countries by date of independence‎. McLerristarr (talk) 02:46, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * See also Talk:United Kingdom
 * Sounds like an Encyclopedic move. Ok I have edited it. What do you think? -- Phoenix (talk) 05:54, 25 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Good, sorted. Now that we've done extra info on changes to the UK, it should probably be done for all the countries. By the way, where did the date 1920 for the separation of the Irish Republic come from? I know that's what it says for Ireland's entry as well. Shouldn't it be the separation of the Irish Free State in 1922 since that's what the 1927 Act confirmed? McLerristarr (talk) 10:16, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok so I am not insane. I originally put 1922 but then I double checked Ireland on the article and it said 1920. I should have stuck with my 1st instinct and double checked that. Just so you see what I mean (and since I need to run) I'll let you change it :-) -- Phoenix (talk) 10:25, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Finished. Glad it never came to violence. McLerristarr (talk) 22:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * For my part I think we both believed that the edit notes would be sufficient to convince the other. I'm glad that you decided to converse and allow us to lay our cards on the table :-) -- Phoenix (talk) 05:35, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I added a lot of stuff to the page including an expanded notes section for the UK which I will eventually do for all the countries. Hope it's okay. Could you please verify it? Thanks. McLerristarr (talk) 05:25, 29 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Wow that is going to take a while to complete. I edited it down a little bit for simplification. I would suggest to focus on what the article lists as its focus:
 * D = "dissolving" of a country or empire
 * M = "merging" of multiple existing countries
 * S = "splitting" off from a country or empire
 * The notes section sounds like a good idea where you can list a states official recognition, but I think that Ireland in the UK section should be listed as 1922. Though if you feel that 1927 is best that's fine. -- Phoenix (talk) 05:42, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

''The above discussion is an archived debate from my talk page Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. -- Phoenix (talk) 21:46, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Major revision
This page had some major problems so I have made many changes and the process is still on going. The date of formation of the UK is an issue. Should it be the date that England and Scotland became Great Britain or the date that Great Britain and Ireland became the UK? The latter would seem to make more sense but it's a question of whether Great Britain was the UK under a different name or whether it was a different sovereign state. I had a lengthy discussion on Phoenix's talk page (see above). Other people's comments are welcome to be listed below here. McLerristarr (talk) 13:45, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * "sovereign state" rather than "country" should be used
 * The page is not just about independence as some countries were never dependent
 * The title of the page has changed because of the previous points
 * Only current European sovereign states should be listed
 * The page introduction has been simplified and since shortened further
 * An extra type of formation was added but I'm still unsure about it
 * More references should be added and the current references should be written properly
 * Many other changes that I can't be bothered listing


 * Great job. But I am really unsure about the inclusion of the flags into this article. They are a bit large and they do make this page look a bit unencyclopedic. -- Phoenix (talk) 21:46, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I also thought the flags were too big. I've made them smaller now. They're currently 60px in height (before they were 75px). They shouldn't make the rows any taller because the notes that will eventually be added will take up more room. I thought flags just added some visual appeal to the article. I copied it from List of European countries and territories. The flags would look better centred in the column but centring them messes up the column for some reason as it does on the afformentioned page about Europe.

I've also been redirecting a lot of similar titles to this page. I've tried to find every combination of similar names but I probably haven't done them all. Bots have corrected redirects to the old name of this page. McLerristarr (talk) 23:23, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I've re-arranged the columns a bit. I removed the flag column and added a predecessors column. A list of relevant predecessors to the country should be listed in chronological order. The flags from the old flag column, as well as the flags from the mode of formation column, have been moved to the new predecessors column. McLerristarr (Mclay1) (talk) 23:48, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok it is getting a bit illegible now. How about either removing the Predecessors section altogether or merging Predecessors with Sovereign state & Current official name. -- Phoenix (talk) 07:31, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It depends on your monitor. I didn't realise the size of the table would change depending on the size of the screen. I customised it to my widescreen monitor and it looks fine, everything is on one line, but I edited it earlier today on another computer and it was all over the place. I really don't know how to fix it. For now, I'll merge the Predecessors column with the name column. McLerristarr (Mclay1) (talk) 08:36, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you think of a good way of merging the columns? I've tried making the name column have 2 rows per cell but apparently it won't work (or I did it wrong). McLerristarr (Mclay1) (talk) 13:04, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yea cant really read anything on a standard monitor. The info your looking for can be found at Help:Table. Hope that you find that useful :-) -- Phoenix (talk) 20:37, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Columns
I've noticed the column width has been changed and apparently "fixed". I don't have a square monitor so I can't tell if it still looks bad or not. Is it actually fixed? From what I can see, the widths for the first two columns are set as the same as before but they appear wider for no reason. McLerristarr (Mclay1) (talk) 12:45, 15 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Well I can actually read the text now if that is what you were asking :-) -- Phoenix (talk) 04:53, 16 May 2010 (UTC)


 * How about doing something like what I did above? -- Phoenix (talk) 05:02, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

That looks good, that's what I wanted to do. The only problem is the name column can't be sorted, which makes it more difficult for people to find a country. McLerristarr (Mclay1) (talk) 06:01, 16 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok then lets get rid on the Predecessors section since it is already covered in the Milestones section. -- Phoenix (talk) 07:18, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps that's the best resolution for now. Perhaps the predecessors could make a new article or a new table on this article. McLerristarr (Mclay1) (talk) 13:07, 16 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok I just removed the Predecessors column. It is very complicated to create what we were talking about Help:Sorting. If you wish to try to create this, it will require a lot of work, but it is possible. -- Phoenix (talk) 22:35, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

OK, I copied the old version of the page to User:Mclay1/List of European sovereign states by date of acheiving sovereignty. I'll experiment on it at some point. Your welcome to edit it too if you want. McLerristarr (Mclay1) (talk) 01:05, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Predecessors
I've played around with the columns but I think the way it is now is fine. The predecessors should remain out of this table. I've created a new page Predecessors of sovereign states in Europe. McLerristarr (Mclay1) (talk) 04:14, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yea I noticed. Nice job. But I think you have a lot of work to do on that especially when it comes to past kingdoms especially the German ones. -- Phoenix (talk) 04:59, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Since we have the separate continental articles for Predecessors of sovereign states in Europe and Predecessors of sovereign states in South America - maybe the rest of the List of sovereign states in Europe by date of achieving sovereignty could be merged into the List of sovereign states by formation date together with the already proposed merger of List of countries by statehood.
 * Additionally there could be made "predecessors" articles for the other continents (if there are cases with more than one predecessor - because a single predecessor is easily mentioned on the main List of sovereign states by formation date). Alinor (talk) 17:21, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Eventually there should be predecessor articles for all the continents. I don't support a merger with this page and List of sovereign states by formation date because I don't like the latter. It would be easier to separate it out into continents. The goal of this page is to include all the important formation events for the country in point form, not just the most recent. List of sovereign states by formation date is more of an overview page; this is (or will be) more detailed.  McLerristarr /  Mclay1  05:19, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Sweden and the Kalmar Union
Seems for me it should be fairly clear the year to use for Sweden should be 1523. Greswik (talk) 18:06, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Germany sovereign by 1990?
It is true that Germany was reunited in 1990, however, I believe it is more accurate to say that Germany achieved sovereignity by 1871 as the German Empire. The Federal Republic of Germany is established in 1949, but didn’t include East Germany or Saarland. 84.196.96.148 (talk) 09:53, 3 July 2011 (UTC)