Talk:List of space travelers by nationality

Criteria for inclusion
Since it would be confusing to readers to have different criteria for two versions of the same list, one sorted by name and one sorted by nationality, I updated this list to use the same altitude definition used by other lists and articles on space travel. See the article Astronaut for an example. Rillian (talk) 17:00, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * How is it confusing when the list clearly states (as lists are supposed to do) the criteria at the top? In any case, the confusion is caused by the other articles that confuse brief jaunts into the thermosphere with orbital flights, a completely different kind of animal.  This is moreover not a list of astronauts but of space travelers -- being above 100 km for a minute is hardly the same as travel in space.  The 100km definition is moreover entirely arbitrary, while the orbital definition is natural and easy.


 * With regard to the numbers of countries involved, the criteria for that is also stated, much more clearly than it is in other articles. Persistent errors remain in the other articles, and your inclusion of data from them has resulted in an internal contradiction:


 * "a total of 477 humans from 38 countries have gone into space"
 * "Hitherto representatives of 39 countries have flown in space"


 * That's not acceptable, and contradicts the numbers in the table immediately below as well. RandomCritic (talk) 20:00, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Confusing because a reader sees that on the Astronaut article 477 people have traveled in space and would expect to find a total of 477 on a list sorted by name and a total of 477 on a list sorted by nationality. They are both a list of the same set, just sorted differently. Consequently, unless renamed "List of space travelers who entered orbit by nationality", the two lists should use the same definition. If you disagree with the definition used on the other lists and on Astronaut of what constitutes space travel, let's get consensus on changing all the relevant articles to match. I certainly agree that the articles should be in sync on this point. Rillian (talk) 23:48, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The most recent edits address, I believe, all the issues and corrects the errors, and allows readers to choose which lists and criteria they wish to utilize. RandomCritic (talk) 20:31, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Table
This is especially for User:Rillian, but also anyone else who wants to change the numbers without thinking about what they represent. If, for instance, you count East Germany separately from West Germany/Germany, you cannot simply add 1 to the "other countries" total. You have to subtract 1 from the total for Germany. Likewise, Anousheh Ansari can be considered Iranian or American but not both; if you add 1 for Ansari to the "other countries", you have to subtract 1 from USA. And so forth. And then you have to make changes to the lists below to match the table. Frankly, trying to make this list match List of space travelers by name or Timeline of space travel by nationality is a bad idea, because this is a much more self-consistent and frequently and consistently updated list. Probably the other two lists ought to be fixed to match this list, rather than the other way around. But it should also be considered that the lists have different purposes; the "Timeline", for instance, takes a specifically diachronic view, while this list considers the situation at the present time. RandomCritic (talk) 14:47, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The primary goal, once consensus is achieved, is for there to be some consistency. What's the point of a image on this article with 39 countries highlighted while having the text state 35 countries? And let's drop the hyperbole -- "thinking" is part of all my edits and, in good faith, I assume the same of you. Rillian (talk) 16:55, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not care one way or the other about the image, and if you feel it causes a problem, then you can remove it. It does not, however, state that it highlights "39 countries" (and it in fact does not highlight 39 countries; you miscounted) and anyone who wants to can compare the map and the list in detail and see that the same countries are shown on both.  The map does not, for instance, mandate considering Russia (the successor state of the USSR) as a different country.
 * I am sorry you felt insulted by my language. Let me rephrase my point this way: any attempt to alter a set of interconnected numbers, including sums and percentages, needs to be done with great care and attention to the underlying facts to avoid falsifying the data.  One cannot simply tack on four numbers and suddenly declare that 498 people have gone into orbit -- those extra four people never existed. RandomCritic (talk) 10:14, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Notation for active NASA astronauts
I have added a ^ to the name of NASA astronauts (A & B, so far) that are listed as active. I thought this would improve this list as the active astronauts are the ones that could have new flights added. user:mnw2000 03:15, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * That's a lot to keep updated. What sources are we going to use to confirm active status and are there any real-time sources of astronauts leaving active status, e.g. press releases or staff anouncements web site? Rillian (talk) 15:24, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Statistics

 * Hello everyone, let me say, this is an impressive entry, with a great deal of work in it. Fantastic job. Also, Referring to this section, and this graph :


 * I'd like to suggest a small possible addition, a table already used on wiki, showing time spent in space by nation.




 * I'd like to suggest that as a statistical reference, it might be useful in the statistics sub-section. I also think it might improve neutrality slightly.


 * I'm somewhat reticent to bring this up, as statistics in the media and politics especially, are by their nature, difficult to work with in a way that pleases people with different points of view, and can become a source of conflict. I'd like to congratulate everyone here on keeping their cool ! Keep up the good work everyone with this difficult task. Remember, people from across the planet look to wiki to find facts, children and adults alike, so lets not let them down.

Penyulap (talk) 05:57, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

The use of images in this article
The use of randomly selected images degrades the quality of this article, and / or the use individual editor's favorite Astronaut's image is not possible in this article, it violates WP:Neutrality, this article lists more than 300 individuals and if all 300+ images were included in order to keep it Neutral, it would cause technical problems for some browsers and users with slow internet connections. The use of a limited number of images according to a logical or popular order is possible, such as first man and first woman in space, first person on the moon, and so forth. The notability of these people and their accomplishments allows them to be included.

A similar use of images occurs on other pages, please see their talkpages here and here.

Please state if you want to keep or remove these images  Penyulap   talk 14:01, 23 June 2011 (UTC)


 * This is not something that needs a lot of talk. You could have just taken the images out.  I think the argument about neutrality is not a good one; it could be used to argue against any image, on any page, on any subject.  Obviously an image is a picture of a particular thing or person at a particular time and place, and so gets away from a 'neutral' level of abstraction.  But that's not a problem.  Everybody knows that images in an encyclopedia (including reputable print encyclopedias) are illustrative rather than exhaustive, and hence necessarily 'random'.
 * Much more to the point is that inserting rather large images within the body of a list degrades the function of the list, especially with the rather limited graphic capabilities of Wikipedia. Any illustrations suitable to this article ought to be above or below the list of names, not within it.  Adding pictures may make the list more fun to look at, but they also make it harder to use as a list, and really utility needs to be consulted first.RandomCritic (talk) 16:40, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Helen Sharman
Sharman's total appears to be included as part of ESA's. The UK Government was a member of ESA at the time of her flight, but has never been part of ESA's manned spaceflight programme. Sharman's trip was privately funded and had no connection to either ESA or the UK Government. Therefore her flight should not be included within ESA totals. Furthermore, the UK is not capable of manned spaceflight (contrary to the map) as it is not part of any manned spaceflight programme - UK citizens have only travelled into space under programmes funded privately and/or by other nations. The UK has never had either the intention or the capability of deliberately placing any of its citizens into space, either alone or in collaboration with other nations, with the exception of a proposed US space shuttle flight that never happened.
 * Furthermore, surely it would make more sense to only score a flight as an ESA flight if it was an ESA related mission, such as an ISS flight? Otherwise any national from a country that happens to belong to ESA is scored as an ESA participant, whether that individual has got anything to do with ESA or not. Thom2002 (talk) 17:27, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * If you'd like support you have mine, it sounds quite reasonable, and the reasoning is easily included in a note or caption. If you need help with the image, there is the wikipedia graphics lab if it is svg, or I can do all other formats in the time I have available. Penyulap  ☏  04:12, 2 Jul 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I'll try the graphics lab as I've never done this before and it may be interesting. I'll check for other ESA members with no stake in the [edit] manned programme as well. That will sort the space-flight capability map. The other issue I've tagged is the the two bar charts - they appear to include non-ESA flights by astronauts who happen to be European citizens within the ESA totals. I think there are two solutions: 1) Remove ESA totals as ESA is not any kind of nationality (ESA is simply an intergovermental agency and not a branch of the partially supranational EU); or 2) Go through the figures and carefully work out which flights should be scored as ESA, and which flights (such as early Intercosmos and CNES-only flights) had nothing to do with ESA . Then subtract the non-ESA flights from the ESA total. Any thoughts on this? Thom2002 (talk) 04:43, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Both charts are referenced to the same page, I note that the chart by number of trips gets updated quickly, but the other side of the story chart showing which space travelers travel the longest, or furthest, doesn't get as much attention. I expect it's simply because there are more American readers/editors. The charts are no big deal, I'd recommend and support that you change them as you suggest rather than marking them for others to do, because they are getting more attention from you than they have had for a year I think. That was the last tally from the source, it would be awesome for you to make an up to date tally, I'd suggest just do as you have time for. I think there is another editor who works on them as well, so you could ask them for their opinion if you like, you'd find them in article history, and I think I chatted with them, if it's not here, maybe it's on their user talkpage ? Either way I think it's easier to just fix the problem. Penyulap  ☏  06:09, 2 Jul 2012 (UTC)
 * I added the cite tags in case they used sources not currently cited. Do you think that both charts use as the underlying source? This table does not reference ESA at all. I think the ESA total may have been calculated using a slightly muddled kind of synthesis. Its not a question of up-to-dateness, as this is largely a historical problem (many pre-ISS spaceflights by Europeans were not under the auspices of ESA). I think that removing ESA on grounds that it can only be calculated by synthesis and the fact that this is an article about nationalities not agencies is the right way to go. I'll wait a decent interval before doing this, in case sources appear. Thom2002 (talk) 06:36, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable, if there are countries listed down to a few crew each, or down to a reasonable number of lines it should be enough, and rounding up with 'other'. Agree on the removal on those grounds, I do think that is how it was calculated. Penyulap  ☏  08:10, 2 Jul 2012 (UTC)
 * All done. Thom2002 (talk) 20:41, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Czechs
Not colouring the Czechs in just seems a tad cruel. Yes, the Czechs didn't accept successor state status to Czechoslovakia, but that was a friendly gesture to the Slovaks. Wikipedia has a tendency to make way too much of that, when not even most of international law cares. The cosmonaut in question is undoubtedly Czech, holding the citizenship of the Czech Republic at the time due to the federative arrangement within Czechoslovakia, and was the first non-superpower national in space. It was quite a milestone in spaceflight. Colour the Czechs in, please.

Icon for gender
Is there a reason we mark women who have travelled to space with an icon but not men? Protonk (talk) 20:41, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The majority of space travellers are men so it's pure laziness not to mark them with a male icon. And it might clutter the page to compromise its readability. --Regards, Necessary Evil (talk) 21:35, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm aware the majority of space travellers are men. Why is the icon there at all? Protonk (talk) 22:58, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


 * I too am for either removing the Venus icon or adding a Mars icon for male space travellers. 2001:4BC9:A40:5C39:88F7:271A:1105:600A (talk) 06:38, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

United States space travelers
I'm going to remove the NASA/non-NASA distinction and merge the United States into one list. Rationale: I plan to keep the supplemental information about dual citizenship because that seems relevant to the purpose of the page.
 * Payload Specialists who flew on the Space Shuttle were not NASA astronauts and they are not segregated.
 * It's inconsistent with the rest of the list. Notably, European astronauts are listed with their home country, whether they flew as representatives of their country, representatives of the ESA, or, in the case of Germany, representatives of a predecessor country.
 * Former NASA astronauts will soon be going into orbit. It doesn't make sense to list them separately based on their place of employment. Chris Ferguson is no longer scheduled to fly on Boeing CFT, but Michael Lopez-Alegria will be on the Axiom Crew Dragon mission. No doubt others will follow.

Merge from List of cosmonauts
List of cosmonauts appears to be entirely redundant to this list. Soviet and Russian travellers are already separately identified in this list. -- Beland (talk) 06:56, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Best to keep List of cosmonauts as it contains many nationalities and not just Russian, so deleting it and dividing the cosmonauts by nationality would lose topic cohesiveness. Seems to already be at its proper place and name. Randy Kryn (talk) 05:27, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * , Hmmm, there is value in knowing who qualifies as a "cosmonaut", but I think we could just add a column "cosmonaut yes/no" to List of space travellers by first flight. Do we really need a cosmonaut lists separate from that one? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 11:46, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, because the list of cosmonauts has both a historical and cultural basis. Breaking it up into nationalities and deleting it adds nothing to the space-related collection of the encyclopedia, especially to the immense importance of the history of early spaceflight. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:53, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why people from different cultures and historical traditions should be put into different lists, when they are on the list because of the activity they engaged in. Especially since it's easy to see which culture and historical tradition participants are coming from by sorting the list differently. There's also the problem that having multiple redundant lists each with partial information makes the pages more difficult to maintain and more difficult for readers to find the information they are interested in. -- Beland (talk) 18:07, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Merge from List of space travelers by name
List of space travelers by name lists all the same people. A sortable table could be used to list in both ways depending on what the reader clicks on. It could also segregate professionals vs. tourists and lots of other distinctions at the same time. -- Beland (talk) 06:59, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Beland Actually we have List of space travellers by first flight, which is much better - sortable and includes all the information from these lists. So I suggest retargeting both of these lists (name and nationality) there. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 11:44, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Retagged; thanks for the suggestion! -- Beland (talk) 18:03, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

List of space travellers by first flight is now sortable by name and nationality. Rupertslander (talk) 00:31, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Redirected, rather than merging, given the argument that sortable and includes all the information from these lists. Klbrain (talk) 05:45, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
 * So, is any sort of merge proposal still on the table? Or has the sortable table taken care of that? I'm confused.  Joyous! | Talk 02:27, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Statistics
The table under "statistics" says in the last line:

Other countries	33 (5.96%; ♀️3)

So there should be 3 women from "other countries", but I only found 1 from UK and 1 from South Korea.

I'm sure there is another, but maybe she was mislabeled?

--85.159.196.177 (talk) 11:44, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

"Plans for human spaceflight on the extreme form" ?
First, if at all, this should say "... of the extreme form. Second, why is traditional space flight termed "extreme"? --Felix Tritschler (talk) 20:46, 31 March 2022 (UTC)