Talk:List of stutterers

Stray comments
I've removed Churchill from the list. Although the American Stuttering Foundation likes to use him as an advertisement, Churchill in fact had a lisp and not a stutter. Source: http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=100 Anty 14:49, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * http://www.stutterers.org/ cites Churchill as a stutterer with many sources. It notes that he had both a lisp and a stutter.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.192.132.130 (talk) 17:26, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

This list includes a Henry Rogers. I have been disambiguating Henry Rogers and clarifying links to that name but am not sure which Henry Rogers is referred to. I suspect it is most likely Henry H. Rogers but did not want to redirect without being certain. Newyorkbrad 18:20, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Need a reference for Heinlein. I've not heard this mentioned elsewhere. Hu 07:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

George Bush has a stammer. Look at his body language when he speaks, he displays avoidance techniques and often has blocks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.35.157.136 (talk • contribs).
 * If he has a stammer, please provide a reliable source for it. See also Biographies of living persons. Garion96 (talk) 02:03, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

How about my speech therapist? Someone who is trained to look out for these things.
 * That's not a reliable source. It has to be verifiable, an article in the New York times every one can check. Not everyone can check with your speech therapist. :) Btw, please sign your messages on talk pages using 4 tildes (~) Garion96 (talk) 02:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Dylan Jones has a stammer: http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1923965,00.html
 * Yep, that's a reliable source. I added the reference to the your entry in the article. Thanks, Garion96 (talk) 00:11, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Removed Jimmy Vulmer, as he is a fictional character. DaSuthNa 16:10, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Ivo Karlovic, the tennis player has a stutter, or so it says on his Wiki page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.162.66.231 (talk) 08:50, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Removing "unsourced" entries
I added John Melendez to this list, but it quickly got removed by User:Garion96 for reason of being "unsourced". Why? Melendez's articles provides plenty of references to his stuttering. Even the opening paragraph states that his nickname was "Stuttering John". Do we really have to put references everywhere, including this here list? --Disconnect 6 (talk) 12:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. A list is a stand alone article and not dependant on whether or not references are used in the linked article. This is especially true for living persons per WP:BLP. Garion96 (talk) 16:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Moses
Moses had a speech impediment. Why is he not on this list. Moses specifically asked God for assistance when confronting Pharaoh for he could not speak. Aaron accompanied Moses in his early years and spoke for him. Moses should be included in the list of stutterers.

Moses is on some lists, but there is no reference to stuttering in the Bible. There are many forms of speech impediment.

MarkinBoston (talk) 01:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Wilt Chamberlain
I watched a television show a few weeks ago that discussed Wilt. A guy who worked as a producer for a sports magazine show spent a lot of time trying to get Wilt to appear on the show, and he discussed Wilt's stuttering quite a bit. I don't have a written reference, but it would be worthwhile keeping an eye out for it, as Wilt is never on these lists.

MarkinBoston (talk) 01:23, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * added long ago — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.10.195.29 (talk) 22:51, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

New stutterers
Check it out

Charles I of England was also a stutterer, I think, because its written in the own article about him... I'm not changing anything, however. Anyone can prove it is accurate?? James II is also said to have been afflicted with a stutter in the article of Mary of Modena... If this is accurate is cool to add these people here, I guess.--186.204.75.246 (talk) 01:00, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Alexios I. Comnenus was possibly a stutterer. His daughter wrote an interesting part in his biography "Alexiad":

"But as the man he expected to find was nowhere to be seen, and no soldier or officer turned up anywhere, only a few insignificant camp servants, he shouted still more loudly, and cried out, "Where in the world is the Stammerer?" thus in his words too jeering at the Great Domestic. For, except in one respect, this Alexius, my father, had a very clear utterance, and no one was a better natural orator than he in his arguments and demonstrations, but only over the letter "r" his tongue lisped slightly, and stammered a little, although his enunciation of all the other letters was quite unimpeded.". Book 1, page 12. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.140.251.117 (talk) 12:00, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

People who need checking out
From above comments and various other places, these people need checking out for inclusion in this list and/or having an article written on them:
 * Walter H. Annenberg
 * Paul Johnson
 * James Griffin
 * Nino Salvatore
 * P. F. Bentley
 * Tiyana Grulovic
 * Dr. Jonathan Miller
 * Henry Rogers, poss Henry H. Rogers
 * Aslam Raisani needs a decent ref
 * Kenndal McArdle needs a decent ref
 * Bart Peeters needs a better source than a blog
 * Arno Hintjens needs a better ref than this:
 * (did not list ones that seemed mere speculation). Pumpkin Sky   talk  20:10, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Ann Wilson of Heart
Does anyone know of a reliable ref for her having a stutter? Pumpkin Sky  talk  14:13, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Ivo Karlovic
Ivo Karlovic definitely stutters and should be added to the sports section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.234.139.243 (talk) 02:20, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Walter Annenberg
Can someone add Walter Annenberg as a stutterer?

"A shy but personable youth, born with a malformed right ear and hampered by a stutter, he was doted on by his father as his sole male heir, according to The Annenbergs (Simon & Schuster, 1982) a biography by John Cooney."
 * http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/02/arts/walter-annenberg-94-dies-philanthropist-and-publisher.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

"He worried that Walter, who stuttered severely, lacked ambition. He loved his son but did not respect him."
 * http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/20093375?uid=3739832&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102745748801

"He was deaf in one ear and as a result had a stuttering problem, which led to many visits to speech disorder specialists and continued throughout his college life."
 * http://pabook.libraries.psu.edu/palitmap/bios/Annenberg__Walter.html

 October 13, 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.71.239.16 (talk) 20:34, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
 * done — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.10.195.29 (talk) 22:48, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

David Foster Wallace
I removed David Foster Wallace. As a a big fan, I can safely say he isn't a stutterer. The source given said that he sometimes stuttered during interviews, which was pretty clearly just talking his being nervous as opposed to having an actual speech impediment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dzgoldman (talk • contribs) 13:45, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Subsections
Why is this divided into multiple tables instead of one? Having "Class or occupation" as a column rather than a subsection heading would avoid such arbitrary decisions as putting Patrick Campbell and John Stossel under "Other" rather than "Writers"; and Claudius but not Charles I under "Politicians". jnestorius(talk) 22:35, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

If we're going to keep the subsections, shouldn't the four monarchs go under "Politicians" not "Other"? Hspstudent (talk) 19:56, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

James Stewart was not a stutterer
Jimmy Stewart was not a stutterer. It's widely known that his seeming stuttering on screen began when he forgot lines and thus repeated words until he remembered what the next word or line was. This seemed to work for him comedicly so he often but not always kept up the practice for humorous or dramatic effect when playing "aw shucks" personas or when he forgot lines or words. You'll notice that he never stutters in interviews, and has never stated that he is a stutterer or even stuttered as a child. Can we please remove this misinformation? None of the footnotes are reliable or firsthand. Thank you. Softlavender (talk) 10:00, 4 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Good point, I commented "him" out for now. Can you perhaps add him in prose, with the above? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:06, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * No point adding him in prose, since he was not a stutterer. Many actors stutter on screen for various parts. This article is not a list of film characters that stutter. Softlavender (talk) 23:42, 4 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but because of WP:V and WP:RS, "widely known" isn't a "source" we can use. You need to find some verifiable documentation.  Even then, since sites such as this, and this document that he WAS a stutter.  If reliable documentation can be found to counter this, then both sides can/should be presented. — Ched :  ?  17:25, 4 January 2015 (UTC)


 * The links you give are not WP:RELIABLE SOURCES. They are Wikipedia mirrors, not to mention advocacy sites to improve the outlook on stuttering. There is no reliable-source (from him or from reliable firsthand information) documentation that Stewart ever stuttered, either in childhood or adulthood, because he was not a stutterer, he only stammered in films when he couldn't remember a line, and for effect. We can't post misinformation on Wikipedia based merely on popular misconceptions -- we need WP:RS and real proof. Softlavender (talk) 23:42, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * These are not wiki mirrors. You are making baseless claims there. With the two sources Ched cites, there are 5. Yet you, who claim RS must be followed, offer NOT ONE source for your claims. "Widely known" doesn't fly here and you should know that after 5 years of editing. To paraphrase Clara, WHERE'S YOUR PROOF? if you can provide some, I agree with Ched, both sides should be presented. But as you now, you have diddly squat. Pumpkin Sky   talk  03:19, 5 January 2015 (UTC)


 * That entry has three citations that say he is. If there is some site out there that says he wasn't or that this belief is a myth then provide it and we can discuss further.  WP:V and WP:RS is met here.  I always find if fascinating to know that James Earl Jones was, just because you don't here someone stutter doesn't mean they don't struggle with it...   Montanabw (talk)  05:31, 5 January 2015 (UTC)


 * The thing is, those refs are only repeating popular assumptions (based on Stewart's consciously developed screen persona) and only use the word "stutter" in passing (and inaccurate) mention. James Earl Jones has personally discussed and described his early struggles with stuttering at length and often. I'd rather this article not be or become the sort of coatrack-y inaccurate list that articles like Lists of Atheists (in whatever profession) are always becoming on Wikipedia -- people take third-hand rumors, speculations, or assumptions and use them as citations on those articles. What we need is full-scale descriptions of a person's stuttering and their history with it, hopefully firsthand, in order to keep this article accurate. In my opinion. Today I've checked with the two most knowledgeable film experts I know, people who have been professionals in the film industry for at least 40 years and are like classic-film encyclopedias, and they confirmed what I stated at the top. I heard the information originally on a documentary on TCM; but I cannot provide that at present. There are over a dozen book biographies on Stewart; to cite from one I will need to purchase and read it, which will take time. Meanwhile, my apologies to anyone I have offended, and yes, those two sites Ched linked are not wiki mirrors (I checked them carefully; they are worded very similarly but based on their history and the history of this article they have differences) but they give no verification or citation for a great many of the entries, including Stewart's. Softlavender (talk) 07:34, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Daily Mirror, Huffington Post, and the book are not mirrors either. Though I will admit the Daily Mirror ref uses a highbeam link--it needs to be changed to a Daily Mirror link itself. I didn't put that in, I've never used highbeam as a ref. I looked online and only found a very weak blog that supports your view, that's not useable. If you do get a book, I'd make sure it discusses this point. This is not a coatracky article or list.  Pumpkin Sky   talk  10:41, 5 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I never said or implied those three refs were mirrors (why would I?); I said those refs are only repeating popular assumptions (based on Stewart's consciously developed screen persona) and only use the word "stutter" in passing (and inaccurate) mention. The article in the tabloid The Daily Mirror says "The star with the trademark stutter and drawling voice" -- exactly; the stutter was a trademark affectation and nothing more; the Michael Palin HuffPo blog says erroneously that "Jimmy Stewart dealt with his stutter openly and elegantly -- it became a charming part of his persona" (again, a common misconception, without any verification or backup); the inspirational book written by the blind man just says "Jimmy Stewart, in that stuttering delivery only he could give, looked at me and said ...." Neither of the last two refs are about Stewart, and the tabloid obit just mentions his trademark and carefully honed persona. In terms of "If you do get a book, I'd make sure it discusses this point", I can't ascertain beforehand what a book will or will not cover; I have been recommended to Donald Dewey's 512-page biography and will likely purchase and read that one. Softlavender (talk) 11:17, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
 * BEEP BEEP back the truck up. Yes you did say they were mirrors, QUOTE: "The links you give are not WP:RELIABLE SOURCES. They are Wikipedia mirrors,". A wiki mirror is a site that takes wiki content and copies it. None of these sites do that. The book and Huffington refs (I just deleted the on that had highbeam) are not tabloids. A ref does not have to have the article subject as the main topic, just discuss it and meet RS and V. And I just added the two refs Ched listed.  Pumpkin Sky   talk  18:27, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Hello, first allow me to thank you for your many years and thousands of contributions to Wikipeia. I'm wondering if you've had the chance to review WP:V and WP:RS yet, especially as it pertains to WP:3PARTY and WP:ORIGINAL. The conclusion of these policies is one that would say that "My friend told me X, Y, and Z" (per your comment: that you checked with the two most knowledgeable film experts I know) simply is not usable here; but I'd have to imagine that after all your time and work here, that you know this. Let me add a few more things that may help: The last point may be the most important (IMHO) to the question at hand. If Stewart's 'shy' stutter was indeed contrived method of acting, then he did carry it through to the extreme of doing so even in interviews ( Note: I'm not claiming this to be a WP:RS for anything other than the fact that he did stutter outside the lines of a script ). If what you are claiming is true, that Stewart did not stutter in private, it may be interesting as a bit of trivia. Personally, even if it's true which I find dubious at this point, I don't believe it would exempt him from being on this list. At the very best, I would say the information could be used as an article on Hollywood marketing techniques.
 * 1) Are you familiar with our Article rating system?  As the articles become more flushed out and of better quality, they go through an assessment process by multiple editors.  Both the quality of writing and the quality of sources are reviewed.  A Featured List is as high as a "list" type of article can reach, and as this list is a featured list, it has been reviewed quite extensively.
 * 2) If you are approaching this as a medical issue (Stuttering), then let me say that this article isn't meant to be a definition of the term, but a list of known people who do or did stutter.  As you state on your user page that you are 2 years older than I am, I would have to think that you've seen Mr. Stewart at some point in your life on screen or tv.  I think it would be pretty remarkable for anyone to claim that he didn't stutter. (often referred to as a "shy stutter")
 * 3) References: I don't see Mr. Dewey's book listed as a reference to the Stewart Bio article, although this reference does mention that Dewey did once speak with Stewart's daughter.  One note I would make as well before you spend your money on it, at least one person found it to be rather dry reading.  That is not to say it couldn't be used as a reference, but again, be aware of how we use our sources.
 * 4) If you're approaching this as some sort of conspiracy or Hollywood contrived plot, again, this wouldn't be the page you'd want to be working on.  Perhaps you could add a line or two in James Stewart, but you'd have to be aware of WP:TRIVIA, and some may even say WP:BLP.  Example: As noted in this article, Mel Tillis did not stutter while singing, but did indeed stutter when speaking.  So even there, he is still on this list.

As to your original claim: You state "You'll notice that he never stutters in interviews ..", I'm sorry, but I've noticed no such thing. Examples only: and. While it may not be as particularly pronounced as some - I'm sorry, you are simply mistaken.

My apologies for the tl:dr wall of text, but given your clean block log, I assume you are not a disruptive editor. Therefore I felt you were due an extended explanation of my thinking here.

In closing, I'd also like to say that I look forward to the completion of your AMD article. You are an excellent writer and I enjoy reading your work, thank you. — Ched : ?  12:31, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

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