Talk:List of suicides/Archive 2

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I am pretty sure
that we are not having any red linked names here, so I cut this one out. Carptrash (talk) 22:15, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Freddy E (2013), American hip-hop music artist known for his comedy and spoken-word pieces, gunshot to the head
 * Freddy E (2013), American hip-hop music artist known for his comedy and spoken-word pieces, gunshot to the head

Proposed Criteria for Inclusion/Means of Classification
Here's what would make sense to me: A person is worthy to be included by name on the list if:
 * A: It has been determined that he/she killed him/herself,
 * intentionally (which would eliminate most drug overdoses), and...
 * regardless of extenuating circumstances (the following would still be considered suicides):
 * killing self to avoid capture, arrest, trial, execution, or other fate considered dishonorable (of course)
 * complying with an order to commit suicide (Seppuku, certain cult members, etc.)
 * fanatically attacking an enemy in a way which also directly causes one's own death (public self-detonation, kamikaze pilots/hijackers, etc.)
 * and...
 * B: He/she is "notable" enough for there to be a wikipedia article with his/her name as the title,
 * which means if article gets VFD'd and deleted, the name gets removed from list.

If we want to make a separate section for group suicides (which I feel should include the 19 hijackers of Sept. 11, 2001, and the 39 followers of the Marshall Applewhite's "Heaven's Gate" cult, for example) I think it's a good idea. Also for people whose definite cause of death is disputed but regarded by some as a possible suicide, there should be a separate section too. So that would give us 3 categories:
 * 1) Confirmed [individual] Suicides
 * 2) People whose cause of death is disputed, but regarded by some as possible suicides
 * 3) Group Suicides [of which the members of each group may or may not be notable enough for inclusion by individual names (i.e. they would be red-links )]

Anybody care to discuss/amend?

&mdash;  F REAK OF N URxTURE  ( TALK )  08:57, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

24.10.04

Here's a few:- Charles Eugene Bedaux (1887-1944) Walter Benjamin (1892-1940) John Berryman (1914-1972) Dora de Houghton Carrington (1893-1932) Charmian Clift (1923 -1969) Kurt Cobain (1967-1994) (Harold) Hart Crane (1899-1932) Henry Grew (Harry) Crosby (1898-1929) ?Frances Gumm (Judy Garland) (1922-1969) Tony Hancock, Ernest Miller Hemingway (1899-1961) Philip Heseltine (Peter Warlock) (1894-1930) Robert E. Howard (1906-1936) Michael Hutchence (-1997) &#24029;&#31471;&#24247;&#25104; (1899-1972) Primo Levi (1919-1987) Ulrike Meinhof (1934 - 1976) &#19977;&#23798;&#30001;&#32000;&#22827; (1925-1970) Sylvia Plath (1932-1963) Tadeusz Rejtan (1742–1780) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.68.75.106 (talk) 11:05, 23 October 2015 (UTC) Japanese Olympic swimmer Ryoko Urakami, Alberto Santos-Dumont (1873-1932) Lt John Hanning Speke (1827-1864) Japanese Olympic marathon runner Kokichi Tsuburaya, who took the bronze medal at Tokyo in 1964. Psychologically tormented when injury forced him to miss the games four years later, he committed suicide. The note he left read, simply, "Cannot run any more." He was 27. (Adeline) Virginia Stephen Woolf (1882-1941) Sergey Aleksandrovich Yesenin (1895-1925) Japanese Olympic 80 meter hurdler Ikuko Yoda

(Peter Rout, Sydney)

Known suicides who may fall a bit short in the celebrity department:
 * Lou Tellegen stabbed himself in the chest with a pair of shears seven times.
 * Sir Delves Broughton killed himself after being cleared of a murder charge
 * Hughes de Choiseul, Duc de Praslin Killed his wife, then killed himself.
 * Edmund Roche, 5th Baron Fermoy -- Someone else 05:25 Nov 4, 2002 (UTC)

Committed has two t's. - Montr&eacute;alais 06:43 Nov 4, 2002 (UTC)

Celebrity deaths that >>MIGHT<< fall a bit short in the suicide department:
 * Marilyn Monroe - OD or murder?
 * George Reeves - did the gun 'just go off'??
 * Paula Yates - OD or Suicide? Someone else 07:23 Nov 4, 2002 (UTC)

Isn't listing Socrates a bit of a stretch? I'd say it was more a case of him being sentanced to death and not resisting. --Infrogmation


 * I agree. Forcing someone to kill themselves is no suicide.  (The same goes for the victims in Jonestown, Guyana, by the way.)  I favor removing Socrates from the list.

We've been renaming many pages of this sort in format "List of notable people who have committed suicide" -- any pros or cons with this page?

Presumably the logical cutoff in "questionable cases" is whether the cause of death is officially listed as suicide, with a note about questionable nature or contoversy as appropriate.

A "suicide" is someone who commits suicide, as well as the act itself. Changing the article name made it shorter. --Ed Poor

I am quite afraid that this sort of lists will soon be out of control. How famous is famous? I don't know even half of the names listed here, but I can give you a list of suicides well-known in China and nearly unheard by westerners. I bet that it may be more serious for Japanese, if it is true that certain suicide is honored in the past.


 * If they're famous to the most populous nation in the world, they're famous enough for me! Go ahead and add them, I say. --AW

Are you sure? If I remember, most of samurais did Harakiri when they surrunder or be punished in some way. In other words, tons of well-known Japanese historical figures commited suicide. Maybe we should name this article as List of famous western suicides for clarification. -- Taku 02:52 Mar 22, 2003 (UTC)


 * Seems an uncomfortable distinction, as if non-Western suicides aren't worth mentioning. Perhaps we could create a separate article for samurai suicides? --AW

Umm, I don't know. How about can we make a list according to the way of suicides? Like Harakiri, using gun and so on. -- Taku 03:13 Mar 22, 2003 (UTC)

Maybe we can make a list according to their "class"? popstars, scientists, politicans, samurais, royalties? Wshun


 * I think a chronological list by date of suicide makes most sense. That avoids the messy kind of category arguments that other solutions give. Martin

Shouldent this article be arranged into some sort of order say alphabetical order because at the moment it's a mess G-Man

I removed Dr David Kelly from the list because it has not been confirmed that he commited sucide. The police have only said "Whilst our enquiries are continuing there is no indication at this stage of any other party being involved." . Although some press have speculated that it is suicide. It is only appropriate to list as a suicide when confirmed by coroner, police, in court or by an formal inquiry. Popsracer 02:31 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The police have stated categoricially that it was suicide (BBC News 24 interview with the police.) And no, "some press have speculated that it is suicide", every single newspaper, every single politician, every friend of his, every member of his family, the police, the doctor who examined his corpse and every single source in existence states it was a suicide. In terms of certainty, there is 100% certainty in his case, which is more than can be said in the cases of a lot of people listed here, from Maryln Monroe to Crown Prince Rudolph and many many people on the list. In the circumstances where there is 100% absolute certainty (and there is here unambiguously) waiting for a formal coroner's court ruling is absurd. That is applying a degree of legal certainty that has not been applied to most of the rest of this list, when there is not the slightest doubt as to what the outcome of the coroner's court will be, its ruling a mere technicality in a case of absolute certainty. I have reinserted Kelly's name. For an encyclopædia that prides itself on being up to date, not to put an unambiguous suicide here would make wiki look rediculous. FearÉIREANN 03:46 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Thank you for your justification, I'll be happy to accept your point of view and leave it at that. Although I would have been more happy with some supporting evidence in the form of a link to a web page. But then not everything appears on the web and I'll accept what you heard or saw on the news.

Suicides are something that should be dealt with utmost care, because ultimately you are talking about someone who was loved by his family and friends. The press are always very careful about suicides and I believe Wikipedia should be as well. Which is why you will often hear 'apparent suicide' or that 'the police are not seeking anyone else in connection with the death'. Although it is important to report in a timely fashion, it is also important to wait until the facts have been established. Most press organisations have a set of rules about reporting suicides.

BBC news search for david kelly suicide only reveals six links. Which only say apparent suicide, except for comments from the general public. Most articles at the BBC website just refer to it is as a death.

Again searching CNN reveals, CNN News search: "david kelly" suicide only brings up two articles, both of which say 'apparent suicide'. Again most articles on the CNN website refer to it just as a death.

Also the none of the articles in the news section of website of the Thames Valley Police mention a suicide.

I would certainly dispute that the suicide is "100% certainty". But I've got other things to do so I'll leave it at that. Popsracer 04:16 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Hmm. He died from a massive hemorraging (sp?) from a wrist wound, with an open bottle of pills beside him. (I forgot the brand name.) He sent a palpable suicide letter to a Washington Post reporter. I hate Ockham's razor with a rare passion, but this is definitely one case where it may have a genuine real world application. Cimon Avaro

Ok. This is what the Washington Post website said: (I am assuming this is fair use)


 * " Two days later he was dead, and police today confirmed that he had committed suicide by slashing his left wrist in a wooded area a few miles from the English village where he lived with his wife. A sharp knife and a packet of painkillers were found near his body, which was discovered Friday morning, about 12 hours after his family had reported him missing." Cimon Avaro

I agree and understand your caution. Normally I would be the first to jump up and say "not proven" (I can be a bit of a stickler for accuracy on wiki, which annoys some people) but as a historian who works in the media and knows how to read media coverage (great fun, BTW, knowing how to read media coverage. Where libel reasons means the media can't say something they do anywy, but in a coded way that people outside the media/politics don't get, so they think the media is saying 'x' whereas in a coded manner it is saying 'y') if there were any doubts whatsoever as to the suicide it would be expressed.

They wouldn't say it, but they'd show it in code, eg, use of the word "apparent suicide" in sentences where it doesn't seem logical, meaning though they can't say it, "there is more to this than meets the eye, so we are covering ourselves here", in throwing in seemingly odd lines of questioning by presenters, raising seemingly strange angles on things, clearly stalling on something in a way that might not be obvious to the average viewer but stands out a mile to people in the industry. Classic examples: Princess Diana's car crash occured after midnight (Irish time). The French Interior Minister confirmed her death at 4.15, B. Palace at 5.30. Anyone who knew how to read the media coverage would have had a fair idea by 2am that she was dead, and be 100% certain by 3am. (It drove the presenters mad having to talk for hours about Diana surviving when it was patiently obvious she was dead but they could not say it until someone official said it.

Similarly when a British newspaper said a top MP had a mistress but didn't name him, they put a picture of the Liberal Democrat leader Paddy Ashdown beside it, meeting some constituent the previous day or something I think. If you know newspapers you'd know immediately the story on he meeting the woman was utterly unnewsworthy and the picture pointless. So no sane editor would have carried the picture. . . unless it was being carried for a reason unconnected to the picture and the story about it. The only possible reason was the story it was plonked beside; unnamed MP and affair. Which meant they were telling anyone who knew how to read these things that the guy in the story was Ashdown.

If there was the slightest doubt about Kelly's suicide the broadsheet press and the BBC would use "back-off" language, and even if the average viewer didn't get the subtleties anyone in the media would. They'd have their police and medical sources saying "you can't broadcast this, but there is more to this than has been publicly revealed." Instead the broadsheets and the BBC are not using any backoff language, which means they have spoken to their sources and those sources have told them there is not a modicum of doubt but that it was suicide. Even the key backout words apparent or suspected are rarely being used. That only happens in the quality press when they have been categorically told by the police and coroner court people that this is an absolutely clear cut rock solid case. FearÉIREANN 05:32 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I see that Terry Kath (of the band Chicago is listed here. There's no question that Kath shot himself; however, my definition of a suicide requires intent, and there is no consensus about whether this was an accident, suicide, or something in-between.  I would like to remove this entry altogether as any attempt to qualify the inclusion would only serve to weaken the point of the article. Jgm 00:05, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

25/10/2006 Hi, just a quick one - hope I've popped this in the right place (rather new to all this!). Should Pamela Morrison a) be listed as Pamela Courson or Pamela Morrison and more importantly b), should she even be on the list of suicides when the cause of death for her is not suicide? Any thoughts appreciated. I would like to make an edit on this, as something of a Pamela Morrison fan, but do not want to be accused of vandalism or somesuch...

Semi-protected edit request on 14 December 2015
Add David Koresh.

AustinHammond (talk) 14:00, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: It doesn't seem clear from the David Koresh page that he actually committed suicide. Indeed, the FBI's report suggests that he was killed by his "right-hand man". Can you provide a reliable source indicating that he committed suicide? /wia 🎄 /tlk  18:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Never mind my request. Please add Steven Schneider to the register. AustinHammond (talk) 00:22, 15 December 2015 (UTC)AustinHammond

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Add Keith Emerson
He just took his own life recently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrs. Jan Cola (talk • contribs) 19:03, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

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Is L'Inconnue de la Seine an appropriate picture for L
She's not in the links....

Darcourse (talk) 12:58, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

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Appearances in both suicide and possible suicide sections
Why is Virginia Woolf listed in both sections? Nightscream (talk) 00:19, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Because I screwed up a revert of an IP's changes to Woolf's listing. Fixed now. — Gavia immer (talk) 03:14, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Why is Hannibal listed in both sections? Tactician mark (talk) 00:14, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

List of heads of state and government who committed suicide
, which currently redirects to this list, has been nominated at RfD for deletion or unmerging. You are invited to contribute to the discussion at Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 September 25. Thryduulf (talk) 18:57, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

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Dominique Venner
Dominique Venner committed suicide. Can someone include him? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.147.180.19 (talk) 01:13, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Roman Names
I have noticed that the Ancient Romans who committed suicide that are on this list (Publius Rufus Anteius, Mark Antony, Arria, Marcus Junius Brutus the Younger, Cato the Younger, Publius Licinius Crassus, Lucan, Lucretia, Caecina Paetus, Poenius Postumus, Metellus Scipio, Seneca the Younger, Marcus Sedatius Severianus, Publius Quinctilius Varus, Lucius Annius Vinicianus, and any others I've missed) are listed in sections based on different parts of their name. Often they are placed basedon the cognomen, which is a family branch name, while their nomen (often middle name) is more closely the beginning of the Family name. It would be more uniform with the other names on the list to use the nomen to determine under which letter they should be placed. For those that have no cognomen this is already done (for example Mark Antony). Is there any reason why the cognomen was chosen?

PrincenMCA (talk) 19:22, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Saul
I am wondering if Saul more properly should be in List of suicides in fiction? We say, "The historicity of Saul's kingdom is not universally accepted[1][32] and there is insufficient extrabiblical evidence to verify if the biblical account reflects historical reality.[33]" Or is this a can of worms best left unopened? Carptrash (talk) 19:52, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

This was linked from 'Suicide methods' page as "List of suicides from antiquity to the present"
...and as such is expected to be a chronologically ordered list. Maybe either fix it there, or here since it's easier to add, as well as look for, new entries at the end rather than by letter. 89.111.226.186 (talk) 21:22, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

"You can help by expanding it" line
Can you please get rid of the line You can help by expanding it 2606:6000:6748:7500:e885:7bd1:7aea:48f3 (talk) 02:40, September 29, 2017 (UTC)

Good point. It was a fine meme, nonetheless. HHrad, 2:50, December 20, 2018 (UTC+1) — Preceding unsigned comment added by HHrad (talk • contribs) 01:53, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Looking for documentation for Arild Berg
especially if it is in English. Carptrash (talk) 16:02, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Dr. Revilo P. Oliver
Shouldn’t Revilo P. Oliver] be on this page? He ended his life with a gun when dying of lung cancer. X06 (talk) 14:39, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:52, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
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Overciting on an article this size really adds up
I recently removed a ton of redundant citations, after carefully checking them all to see if one source didn't cover everything. Took a long time, especially with the painfully-slow reloads after each edit. And then bam, seven megabytes of pointless slop carelessly slopped back on.

I'm not about to try that again, but I advise the rest of you to ease up on the citations. There is absolutely no reason Karl Dane needs four citations for shooting himself through the head with a pistol in 1934. That's madness, and I believe it should end (by someone else's hand). InedibleHulk (talk) 22:40, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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Giuseppe Pinelli
Should we include Giuseppe Pinelli? The police claimed his death was suicide, although this was widely disputed. (He was the basis of Dario Fo's play Accidental Death of an Anarchist.) PatGallacher (talk) 11:52, 25 April 2021 (UTC)


 * As with any other content, we follow WP:V, WP:NOR, etc., and go by what sources indicate. If there are reliable, secondary sources indicating that his death was officially ruled or widely accepted to be a suicide, then that's goes into the article. If there are sources reflecting serious challenges to the official ruling, then we can put his entry in the Possible suicides section. Nightscream (talk) 15:31, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Rehtaeh Parsons
Rehtaeh Parsons should be on this page since she hanged herself.

Jon Lee
shdnt jon lee drummer of feeder who suicided in 2002 (one of britains best bands) be included on here

other suicide list

How come their are two lists and some people appear on one but not on the other

Mass suicides
Do mass suicides like Jonestown or the Battle of Saipan have a place on this list? Even if none of the participants were themselves notable, the suicide events seem like they'd qualify. Tactician mark (talk)

Marco Pantani
Isn't it highly probable that it was suicide ?

John Belushi
I removed John Belushi from the list as his was an accidental overdose. GillianHunt

Is L'Inconnue de la Seine an appropriate picture for L
She's not in the links....

Missing two people
Richard “The Renegade” Wilson & Terry A. Davis (possible suicide) aren’t in this list 2601:8D:600:4CF0:F847:1D04:8CFE:547E (talk) 22:24, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * That's because you haven't added them yet. :-)


 * Just keep in mind Wikipedia requires that the material in its articles be accompanied by reliable, verifiable (usually secondary) sources explicitly cited in the article text in the form of an inline citation, which you can learn to make here. Nightscream (talk) 02:24, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Article size and 'inclusive size/scope'
I am looking to reduce the size of the article, as it was around the 17th biggest Wikipedia article a few days ago and I do not believe that the article size is appropriate or suitable. Also, the list feels endless and unreadable, so I have decided to transfer suicides occurring in the 21st century to make the 'List of suicides in the 21st century' article useful and purposeful. zsteve21 (talk), 19:00 BST
 * And as the top editor on this article, who is responsible for over 43% of its content, and over 29% of its edits, I object to a unilateral move of this scale without consensus discussion. I'm reverting. If you want to do this, then hold a consensus discussion. Nightscream (talk) 22:02, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
 * A page move and content removal on this scale was inappropriate for a page of this size and visibility. Please do not move-war about this.
 * And please sign your talk page posts with four tidles ( ~ ). Liz Read! Talk! 22:27, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I have been toying with ideas for a split. Unfortunately, it didn't turn out very well due to the sizes not matching. Blubabluba9990 (talk) (contribs) 19:06, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There's no need to rush to split the article. WP:HASTE states, quoting: "As browsers have improved, there is no need for haste in splitting an article when it starts getting large. Sometimes an article simply needs to be big to give the subject adequate coverage. If uncertain, or with high profile articles, start a discussion on the talkpage regarding the overall topic structure. Determine whether the topic should be treated as several shorter articles and, if so, how best to organize them. If the discussion makes no progress consider adding one of the split tags in order to get feedback from other editors." Ergzay (talk) 03:39, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with how the article was split, but this article should still be split. Something like A-K and L-Z would be most productive. Onetwothreeip (talk) 03:17, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I oppose it. It's easier to monitor changes to the single list, and I've been monitoring it for uncited material, proper citation formatting, verification, for over a decade now. Thats' just me. Nightscream (talk) 04:03, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I think having two articles split in half is a really good idea, it isn't a huge increase in the number of pages, but it takes this down from the (currently) 14th largest article on English Wikipedia. I'll note that I would want the "disputed" section to also be split with the other naming. Nightscream, it's really impressive that you've been monitoring and adding to this for over a decade - it also explains why it's in incredible shape despite the size (I was expecting a nightmare and was met by one of the better-cited controversial lists) - but the flipside of adding content to an article is that it gets bigger. And then it gets too big. And then it gets to the 14th largest article. We should also work out ways to make them easier to monitor - for example, transcluding the lead from one to the other, or redirecting the talk pages so discussions happen in one place. --Xurizuri (talk) 14:34, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * One suggestion to reduce size: stick to one citation per entry. Some have up to four for some resason. - HappyWaldo (talk) 20:07, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the compliment. I don't think the article is too big, nor is there anything wrong with it being the 14th largest article. As for your suggestiosn, I'm open-minded. However, I don't know what you mean by transcluding the Lead or redirecting talk pages. Aren't discussion on this article happening in one place?

One of the reaons that some entries have more than one citation is that often, a single source doesn't contain info on both the suicide and the method. Another is because it's not always clear which non-English source would be pass WP:IRS, so I might add two just to be on the safe side. Another may be when I come across an entry that was added by other editors, and the cite is either a print source or is behind a paywall, and I want to add another to make it more easily verifiable.

But for the most part, "too many citations" is not the problem with this article, and hasn't been with Wikipedia in general. The problem is not enough citations, which occurs when people add entries without a citation, or a citation that does not support the method, or even the finding that the death was suicide. Just check out the discussion that we had here in Jan and Feb 2010, in which I had to fight to make citations required for inclusion here (which prompted the Inclusion in the article banner at the top of this page), because so many lazy or apathetic editors don't want to include them, or think "list" articles don't need them, etc., a point that Xurizuri alludes to above. Nightscream (talk) 22:13, 29 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I understand, but the article is simply WP:TOOBIG and something must be done to reduce its size. Citations seemed an obvious start as I don't think I've come across an article with so many. I support the A-K and L-Z split suggested by Onetwothreeip. - HappyWaldo (talk) 22:33, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It's a reasonable suggestion, but this article needs to have those citations. Inclusion in this list is inherently sensitive and frequently controversial, and some people will require multiple citations to fully support it.Regarding the transclusion and redirecting, I was suggesting those as options for if the page was split into two articles. Of course, not useful at the moment.A big article is actually a problem though - the guideline on article size describes how large article creates a bunch of technical and readability issues. For example, I use the fastest internet connection available in my country (Australia), and I have to wait about half a minute for the article to fully load. People with a slower connection, or on mobile, could very reasonably be waiting more than a minute, or they may even just not get some sections. --Xurizuri (talk) 04:15, 30 January 2022 (UTC)


 * As the editor who spearheaded the push to keep uncited entries out of it, and who has spent the past 12 years monitoring it to keep it that way, while also ensuring that the sources cited do not fail verification, include all the publication info, are consistent formatted, etc., I find no problem with the article size or its readability. Nightscream (talk) 13:26, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

I propose that this article be split into List of suicides (A–M) and List of suicides (N–Z) because it's now the 12th to 15th longest article at Special:LongPages. PK2 (talk) 04:16, 6 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose, per above. Nightscream (talk) 00:18, 7 March 2022 (UTC)


 * I mostly support, per my reasoning above. I also have two caveats for my support. Firstly, the entries should be split A-K and L-Z, with both having their own disputed suicides section. There are 1095 entries, and the 547th is towards the end of K, so a K/L split would be the closest to even. Secondly, it's important that all reasonable steps are taken to make it easier to maintain the two articles. That may include ignoring some rules and guidelines, but this particular list has a high enough risk to be worth doing that. I made a couple of suggestions above, but there are likely more options as well. --Xurizuri (talk) 08:07, 9 March 2022 (UTC)


 * And which rules and guidelines would those be? Nightscream (talk) 16:23, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

On Prince Alfred
Some accounts mention that Prince Alfred died of causes other than suicide. In that case, shouldn't Prince Alfred be placed →Possible or disputed suicides instead of Confirmed? Manavati (talk) 21:21, 24 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Done. His own article goes into detail on this, complete with multiple citations, so I moved the entry, and kept the citation that was there, along with the ones I migrated from his own article. Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 19:27, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Split proposal
The size of this page has been discussed before, and I have two suggestions that I think are better than a merely alphabetical approach:


 * Split List of suicides into a separate List of possible or disputed suicides
 * Split by time (e.g., List of suicides in early history, List of suicides in the 20th century, List of suicides (1000–1999 CE) – take your pick about whether you want fewer+bigger lists or more+smaller lists).

The first will have only a small effect on the page size, but it is quite easy to implement, and even 5% is a worthwhile reduction.

The second could leave this page as a sort of Disambiguation or navigation page with a bulleted list of, or it could take a WP:SUMMARY style that names a few, like this:

Most suicides in early history went unrecorded, but a few are widely known. Known suicides from this time period mostly involve the deaths of rulers, politicians, and military commanders, generally after a major military defeat. Deaths from this time period include people such as Saul of Israel, Seneca the Younger of Rome, Cleopatra of Egypt, Mark Antony of Rome, Emperor Aizong of Jin, and Tezozomoctli of Cuauhtitlan.

(Of course it wouldn't have to be exactly like that, but that should give you an idea. The list for the 20th century would presumably name more artists, including Virginia Woolf, Sylvia Plath, and Kurt Cobain.)

In terms of numbers, I think it would be functional to divide the list into pre-20th century, 20th century, and 21st century (by date of death), but I'm open to whatever other editors prefer. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:47, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Marilyn Monroe's death is debatable
Why is Marilyn Monroe under "confirmed suicides"? Her death was ruled a probable suicide by the Los Angeles County Coroners Office, but not a confirmed one. Ironicnamejpg (talk) 05:21, 13 September 2022 (UTC)


 * The article does not use "probable" in the same way that others use it, as in a coroner's report. Entries are included in the main "Confirmed" section when they are generally regarded as suicides, without any serious challenge based on a scientific line of evidence or reasoning. Unsubstantiated conspiracy theories do not count.


 * When there is such a serious challenge or dispute, it may go in Possible or disputed suicides. Based on this information in the article on Monroe's death, it is reasonable to include her in the Confirmed sectoin. If there is any science-based dispute to the coroner's finding, please cite it, and we may move her entry. Nightscream (talk) 12:13, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Ronnie McNutt
Suicide of Ronnie McNutt

Should this be included? He shot himself on camera SirInfinity0000 (talk) 22:56, 23 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I've added it. No reason why his suicide shouldn't be included, it's very much confirmed and even has its own page. A friend of mine also noticed he wasn't on here, so considering that multiple people have I think it was about time. AFEG64 (talk) 11:04, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Someone added chart formatting to the "I" section
removing it will be a pain unless someone knows how to revert back several edits. Or do we want the whole list to be like this? Carptrash (talk) 20:49, 5 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't necessarly have a problem with converting the list into a table, and I could understand if the editor who did this, 2600:4040:7f4d:d800:a5ad:2c76:f7b3:3769, intended to do so with the entire article in a reasonable time frame. However, they made no such indication, either in their edit summary, or in a discussion here. For this reason, I don't know if they intend to do that, or just format the section on the letter "K", which is not acceptable. If they wish to do the former, and to discuss the matter here, I'm open-minded to it. Nightscream (talk) 19:44, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Ditto for me. I don't care which way it is, but it all needs to be the same.  If someone wants to take a month (one day per letter with a few days off) that's fine with me but there needs to be progress. Carptrash (talk) 16:56, 10 February 2023 (UTC)