Talk:List of taekwondo grandmasters

Pre-2010 discussion
I proposed this for deletion... it's a list of short bio' s which would take into the hundreds if all 9th degrees of WTF, ITF be here.

if they fit the notability guidelines, I'd just create a separate article for them. Enni84 (talk) 06:17, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree, this article was to build up PR for the ATA. So I added some of the most senior Taekwondoin, but you are right, it would take thousands of bios of people far more important that ATA's Lee.

I vote Delete! Bigzilla 70.239.1.209 (talk) 08:21, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Delete, it is impossible to list all the grandmasters here. There are thousands.

Bigzilla 70.239.1.209 (talk) 08:22, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Article revision - February 2010
This list was created on 24 June 2009 by ErinHowarth. An anonymous contributor (211.219.164.216) proposed it for deletion on 18 July 2009 (result: contested by DGG), and I nominated it for deletion on 6 February 2010 (result: no consensus reached in the deletion discussion). The article is currently in a poor state, and I will be revising it as best I can. Apart from this post, I have posted an invitation on the WikiProject Martial Arts discussion page to discuss this article's improvement. Some salient points I have noted from Wikipedia's guide on stand-alone lists are: If you would like to contribute to this article, I encourage you to first read Wikipedia's guide on stand-alone lists. Thank you. Janggeom (talk) 04:27, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Clear criteria. The list needs a lead section that clearly specifies the criteria for a person to be included on the list. (reference) This is probably the biggest problem with the article at the moment, given the diverse rank criteria and organisations that exist in Tae Kwon-Do.
 * Inherent notability. To be on the list, a person needs to be notable (according to Wikipedia's definition) in his/her own right. (reference) As a guideline, notability could be indicated by the person having his/her own Wikipedia article (or the clear potential for one).
 * Specific notability. To be on the list, a person needs to be notable for Tae Kwon-Do involvement. (reference) To quote the guide: "For example, lists of atheists doesn't include every individual with a Wikipedia article who happens to be an atheist, because not all of them are notable for their atheism."

Adding to the list
If you would like to add a person to the list, please make sure that he/she meets the listed criteria for inclusion and, critically, you need to provide references to support his/her inclusion. One of the biggest problems with this list, prior to its recent revision, was that most additions had no supporting references at all. Thank you. Janggeom (talk) 07:54, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Please conform with the established table format when adding material. This list is not the place for a mini-biography of each person; such material should go into a separate article on the individual concerned. Please also ensure that the references supplied actually state or clearly support the information you are adding, otherwise your addition may be removed. Thank you. Janggeom (talk) 15:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

No Korean Granmasters?
How is it that there are no Korean grandmasters in this list? For a Korean art, something seems badly wrong with this.--Stvfetterly (talk) 13:32, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Formatting error
There's a formatting error on this article. The first table needs to be closed before the section break. Chutznik (talk) 02:38, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * By 186.134.13.231. Dru of Id (talk) 03:49, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Missing
is Grand Master LEE Kwan-Young, youngest 9th dan ever, and highest ranked master, 9th dan of Taekwondo/Hapkido/Haidong Gumdo. Founder of HoshinMoosool, and pionneer of Taekwondo in France, Europe and Africa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.85.214.208 (talk) 10:40, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Yung Ho Jun, 9th dan 1986 (Kukkiwon 1990), b. 1936, former instructor to special forces for both the Republic of Korea and the United States. http://yunghomartialartscenter.com/GrandMasterTemplate.php https://www.yunghoschool.com/about Halconen (talk) 15:35, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Frank Massar
Frank Massar has been added to the list. The related Wikipedia article states that he was born in 1958, and the biography published on his organisation's website states that he was introduced to taekwondo "in the early seventies" and was trained "to ultimately become a Grand Master from the late seventies." The biography also states, as its opening sentence: "When Frank Massar started Taekwondo, he was already practicing (sic) several martial arts disciplines and building a good reputation for himself in the greater martial arts community." In the early 1970s, the subject would have been around 14 or 15 years old. In the late 1970s, he would have been around 19 or 20; if 1979 is considered as the last year of the 1970s, he would have been 21, at most. Even assuming that the subject commenced training in martial arts at around 5 years of age (1963), he would have been training for only around 10 years by the time he was introduced to taekwondo, and only around 15 years by the time his biography states that he became a "Grand Master" (of which perhaps only five years were spent training in taekwondo itself). It does not seem remotely plausible for someone to have trained for only 15 years (regardless of age, although 21 does seem implausibly young) in the martial arts before becoming a grandmaster. Questions of plausibility aside, what evidence exists that the subject was widely (e.g., nationally or internationally) recognised as a master (whether of any martial art, or of taekwondo specifically) since the 1970s? Since this list is specifically regarding taekwondo grandmasters, when was the subject widely (e.g., nationally or internationally) recognised as a master of taekwondo? Thanks to anyone who is able to provide further information or reliable sources regarding the subject's status. Janggeom (talk) 15:21, 20 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Dear Janggeom, you are confused with the timelines. Frank Massar started training under Pak in the late 70s, not that he became a Grandmaster then. He trained under Pak that ultimately led Massar to become a Grandmaster. If you follow the timeline closely, Massar has been training Taekwondo and teaching for over 40 years. Also mentioned, he is certificated by Kukkiwon and Chung Do Kwan.  I hope it is made clearer for you. Antonioyap (talk) 07:34, 24 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your note. It would be more accurate to say that the source text was ambiguous (originally "[trained] ... to ultimately become a Grand Master from the late seventies," as quoted above), and I notice that it has now been rewritten more clearly ("... trained Frank Massar from the late sventies [sic], to ultimately become a Grand Master"). If the subject received 9th Dan from Kukkiwon, he should have been listed in the "Kukkiwon (World Taekwondo Federation)" section, rather than the "Other taekwondo styles" section. If he is to be relisted, please note the additional criteria of notability stated at the beginning of the appropriate section (just below the section headings) and consider whether the sources demonstrate those or not. In writing this, I am not commenting on this individual's notability on either of the two notability criteria (as I haven't examined the sources in detail), but just noting something for consideration. Trust this helps. Janggeom (talk) 16:27, 25 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I am skeptical. The related wiki article looks like a fan site: I do not see good quality references. jmcw (talk) 16:02, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Janggeom, you are confused again with respect to Grandmaster Frank receiving 9th Dan from Kukkiwon. If I may point out to you, it is noted that he received his 9th Dan from his Master, Great grandmaster Won Kuk Lee. I would presume its a rarity for a British to be awarded such a high rank title. Frank Massar has been in the UK scene for 40 years. He has appeared roughly in excess of 100 magazines/publications. He won a few Grand Champion titles in America. He is again illustrated in numerous MAI magazines issues since December 2013. The latest is March 2014 issue. He is indeed a Grandmaster very much in his own right. I believe he has receive no less than 7 lifetime awards in the British Hall of Fame honours. Please reinstate his status as Grandmaster. Antonioyap (talk) 21:40, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

U.S. Taekwondo Grandmaster Society
How about the members of the U.S. Taekwondo Grandmaster Society (website here)? I am personally acquainted with three of them, all originally from Korea, and all 8th or 9th dans. Jin-Song Chung, for example, received his 8th dan as a grandmaster a few years ago in Carrollton, TX. — Loadmaster (talk) 02:45, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Feel welcome to add eligible individuals, but please check that they meet the criteria listed just under the section heading you are adding them to. (Individuals are not listed due to high rank, title, or length of training alone, but for a combination of criteria as noted in the article.) It would also be important to add reliable references demonstrating that they meet the criteria, otherwise they are likely to be removed from the list at some point. Trust this helps. Janggeom (talk) 16:32, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Jhoon Rhee
I followed a link from his page, to get here, but I notice he isn't included. I was surprised he wasn't on the list as he seems to be one of the most recognized Tae Kwon Do masters, at least outside of Tae Kwon Do. Livingston 13:31, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Looked in the history and saw that the last editor deleted his entry while trying to add someone else and broke the formatting. Added Jhoon Rhee's section back as per prior to edit. Livingston 13:41, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

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Grandmaster Faye Louise Allman
Seems way to young to be able to be a grandmaster, must be an error? Or birthyear is wrong.... Cant seem to find info about her online... JCKHDK (talk) 20:09, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
 * To confirm, someone removed her on 17 Sep 2020, noting in revision note that she was only 40! Enginear (talk) 03:00, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Where have the ITF Grandmasters gone?
It has come to my attention that the entire list of International TaeKwon-Do Federation (ITF) grandmasters has been deleted. This deletion has to be undone.
 * Above note was written by 89.127.34.172 (whose restraint is admirable, since his edit history shows he had written 30% of the list himself two months earlier!) at 09.42 22Apr 2020. The table was reinstated later that day.  It had almost certainly been removed in error (on 14 Feb 2020), since 4 mins earlier, the person who deleted the list had added a substantial entry for another grandmaster to it! Enginear (talk) 03:18, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

State of article
This article needs some serious cleanup. There are many entries that have no reference whatsoever, or the only source is the individual's own webpage. These should be removed. As for the others, there's far too much detail for a list entry. It does not need to cover their entire life story - if the individual is notable then they would have their own article for that. I plan to clean up the article by removing the non-referenced entries unless someone provides sources. ... disco spinster   talk  03:10, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Grandmaster Young Sik Choi (Choi Young Sik)
I was wondering why he was not included on this list considering his major accomplishments Ty DeCoursey (talk) 04:19, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Article clean up - notability and excessive information
I have removed a lot of information from the article, primarily about individuals who do not have a Wikipedia article or a third-party reference that suggests notability. Please note that I have been quite charitable about what suggests notability (e.g. a newspaper article that mentions them, or an interview with them). I've also removed excessive content that would/should be in the individual's main article, as well as some that is not written in a neutral tone. If anyone would like to retrieve this information to put it somewhere else, you can copy the content from this version of the article. ... disco spinster   talk  21:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Choi Si Ill
Where is Grandmaster Choi Si Ill — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.25.199.101 (talk • contribs)
 * If you have third-party reliable sources that significantly discuss him, you are free to add him to the list. ... disco spinster   talk  15:09, 20 July 2024 (UTC)