Talk:List of teams and cyclists in the 2008 Tour de France

Order of teams
Is there a reason for the order of the teams on the page at the moment. There is nothing intuitive about it. What would be the best order: rider numbers? Alphabetical by team? Kevin McE (talk) 13:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Just the order of last year... the order is normally based on the numbers, which are handed out based on the results of last year's tour. But then... the winner won't be here so I don't know how they'll do it... -- Pelotas talk  14:49, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Presumably Lotto will be 11-19, CSC 21-29 (Evans 2nd last year, Sastre 4th) etc. Any idea when this might be finalised.  Do ASO keep it till the last minute?  Kevin McE (talk) 06:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You're probably right about the numbers, but not sure ofcourse. And the ASO doesn't wait until the last minute because I remember a few years ago having a week or two before the start already, but when exactly the numbers are announced? beats me... -- Pelotas talk  06:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The numbers aren't finalized until the teams' racers are finalized, which is two days before the tour or so. Numerical order is normal. Even alpha order is difficult as three teams have changed their names in the past two weeks! -- -- Amelia9mm talk  09:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Repetitive
Do we need to have the team menbers listed in full at the top of the page, for the team announcement, and again in the teams' boxes? I would suggest that we say in the text something like " CycloTeam named its squad, as detailed below, on 32nd June, with Fred Bloggs, Joe Smoth and Andy Capp as reserves." maybe changing in time to " CycloTeam named its squad, on 32nd June, which was as detailed below except that Bobby Sox was withdrawn due to pregnancy, and replaced by Fred Bloggs. Joe Smoth and Andy Capp were also been named as reserves." Kevin McE (talk) 13:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Okido, makes sense. -- Pelotas talk  14:49, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree with suggestion - impressed with Bobby Sox's reason for withdrawing :-) Something needs to liven the tour up - it would be better than another doping scandal. --Matilda talk 01:16, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Team Columbia
I suppose the abbreviation will change to something else instead of THR ? Anyone got any idea what this will be ? -- Pelotas talk  01:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I was going to wait for the move til 5 July but someone created a new stub and that was going to be disruptive. No idea about the abbreviation. --Matilda talk 01:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The abbreviations are determined by UCI, they should be available there by the time the Tour starts, at least. Ah, just looked at team listings on www.uci.ch and they've kept CSC Saxo Bank as CSC (This team name change happened at least a week earlier than the others) but haven't updated the names of Slipstream/Garmin nor High Road/Columbia yet. So who knows? --Amelia9mm talk 09:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The official UCI codes are listed here but the UCI hasn't yet updated the names or the codes for the teams who have changed in June. DocOctopus (talk) 13:30, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * They may not change them mid-season. Not quite sure of the regs but I wouldn't be surprised at all if they stay the same. SeveroTC 13:51, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * When Würth left Astana-Würth mid-season two years ago, the team seems to have kept the ASW code until the end of the season, indicating that the codes typically aren't changed / Kriko (talk) 20:36, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Kriko is right. UCI has now updated the team names on the www.UCI.ch website but the codes are the same, which means they won't make sense to the uninitiated, for sure. For example: TSL for Garmin/Chipotle presented by H3O. DocOctopus (talk) 22:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Formatting of team lists
Why do the boxes around the team lists sometimes have space (side to side) between teams and sometimes not (i.e. the table boxes look all connected)? It's a minor visual thing, but it's bugging me. DocOctopus (talk) 10:01, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmmm strange, I see what you mean, when I use Internet Explorer. But it looks fine (all have space between them) on Firefox and Opera. I'll look into it. --David Edgar (talk) 10:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Table listing teams
At the top, a table listing the teams has been inserted. This is exactly duplicating a table on 2008 Tour de France. Is it necessary here? Why not just have a textual list and then move on to the cyclists detail, which is what differentiates this page from the 2008 Tour de France page? DocOctopus (talk) 13:50, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I pasted it there, and agree that a straight copy from the parent article is not ideal, but it was a quick solution to the not very reader-friendly list of 20 teams in prose that looked like an attempt on a world for most commas in one sentence. Kevin McE (talk) 21:32, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Team Pages
This is not a question about this page, but about the 20 team pages. One of them (at least) has a warning that its not up to standards and so forth. They are all organized pretty differently. I'd work on that not very good page (Milram) if I had some idea what the best of the other pages is, to use as a model - which is why I'm asking here rather than there. The Milram page has both writing/editing issues and organization issues, in my opinion. DocOctopus (talk) 15:02, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's probably be better to raise the issue of a range of pages at the project page. SeveroTC 15:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Done! DocOctopus (talk) 16:26, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Practical Page Usage
Once the race numbers are assigned, the racers on each team need to be reordered in number order and the teams need to be reordered into number order (copy/paste anyone?). Also, I'd like to add, beside the racer's names, any current national champion or world champion designations since these impact what jersey they wear and might be a common use of this page by folks looking to figure out who is who in the odd-colored jerseys during the race. See small type note beside Cancellara's name, as an example. I linked him to the Rainbow_jersey page which would explain his odd jersey to any one wondering and lists him as the world TT champ. I think this sort of info will be even more useful for national road champions, such as Valverde, who will likely be wearing kit markedly different from their team members. DocOctopus (talk) 11:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I can see why you wish to do that, but personally I'm not een. It is inappropriate to use colloquial abbreviations like champ, and if a page is to be easily understood by non-specialists, jargon like TT should be avoided.  It will not be clear to many visitors why the New Zealand national championship results are worth noting by a rider's name, but not top level races like the Paris-Nice or the Spring classics.  But my real bug-bear is that it throws put the alignment of the boxes, even worse than does the Swiss flag!  Maybe a marker by the name of a rider, explained in a footnote something like this
 *  * Unless they are wearing a leader's jersey, riders marked * race, in each stage except time trials, wearing a jersey to indicate that they are the current Road-race champion of their respective countries.
 * † Unless they are wearing a leader's jersey, riders marked † race in time trials wearing a jersey to indicate that they are the current time-trial champion of their respective countries, or World time trial champion in the case of Fabian Cancellara
 * What do people think?  Kevin McE (talk) 15:43, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ahh the jerseys question which has been rearing it's head lately. We have no common style in which these pages are written so it still can be quite flexible. This one is on the line between "in-universe" and not - it's quite feasible people will wonder why some riders are wearing different jerseys. However, we don't even display what jerseys the teams usually wear! I'm not against displaying something, but we need to think about displaying standard team jerseys as well. (I was working on something like this about a year ago but it fell through ) SeveroTC 22:25, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it would make a useful addition to specify which rider are the national champions. I broke the info down on an own line beneath the rider, to make it look neater! I also made the text clearer for unknowing readers and added wikilinks where needed. I might also be persuaded to accept a note below for riders who have won a professional road bicycle race this season. But IMO the national championship winners are more worthy of mentioning, because of their special jerseys. lil2mas (talk) 22:32, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I like what lil2mas has done and it looks relatively neat as well. I don't think the alignment of the boxes is of prime importance, but rather delivering the useful info is of prime importance. That is, info such as which riders are on which teams, who's wearing what number, what country they are from, age, and how they can be identified (national jerseys, etc.). Frankly, once the actual numbers are known, I don't see why the 20 box design has to be the default. Why not have one long table listing them in number order, one rider per line, then there's enough room to the right for details like "World Time Trial Champion" and such like. Or maybe two long tables, with 10 teams on each and all riders in numerical order. If they are in number order, the teams will automatically be grouped. Are we married to the idea of 20 separate team tables for some reason?  In addition, I'd be happy to write a short section explaining the national and world champion jerseys. That might be helpful for folks coming to the page to sort out who/what they are seeing on TV. DocOctopus (talk) 03:24, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You mean something like List of teams and cyclists in the 2008 Giro d'Italia (albeit with more prose at the top)? It would also be useful to make the table sortable, so that the reader could easily click to see the riders in numerical order, alphabetical order, age order or, when the race is finished, GC-order.
 * Yes, somethign like that, and sortable would be fantastic. I've never made a sortable table, but I'll give it a go if it'll be useful. Back on the national champion thing, they could be shown with a flag and the words Road or Time Trial, in a column just for that. It wouldn't need to be wide. DocOctopus (talk) 13:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Team managers or sporting manager?
The overall director of operations for the teams, or the man who calls the shots during the race? So, for example, for SIL, should we post Sargeant or Frison? Or both? Kevin McE (talk) 09:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the guy calling the shots during the race is usually used. SeveroTC 09:23, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Do we really need Section 1 any more?
Now that the list has been finalised, and since this is strictly a list article, is the "Team selection" information even pertinent, much less desirable? The information that is still interesting, such as the last bullet item, could easily go in the introduction now. A screen full of "Team X announced its list on Day Y" looks completely out of place even now, and imagine how it's going to look in 2010. Mr Death (talk) 04:01, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, the announcement dates are a bit irrelevant now. But the notable inclusions and omissions of particular riders are worth keeping (especially previous stage winners like Boonen and Bennati). Maybe it's worth keeping some of the references too?
 * Perhaps we should also mention on this page other notable absences, like Contador and Leipheimer, given their placings last year. --David Edgar (talk) 08:13, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This section and the Field summary section can be merged into the lede. SeveroTC 08:28, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I've changed it to a note about main absentees (Astana, Boonen, Gómez, Bennati, Dekker) Kevin McE (talk) 14:23, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Positions
There are plenty of resources available for updating positions of riders, I say either keep them updated or leave them out of this article until the completion of the tour. P N  57   12:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Easy to say, but not many folks are bothering to keep the page up to date. I have the positions now up to date after Stage 20. They aren't likely to change much on the final day, of course. We shall see. DocOctopus (talk) 19:58, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

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