Talk:List of teams and cyclists in the 2009 Tour de France

This is gonna sound weird coming from me
As I seem to be the poster child within WP:CYC for article prose, but do we really need all that text on the page? It's a list, not an article, and while good lists do have some prose to explain and give context for them, the bulk of the text on this page is directly redundant to the tables that follow. I think one should be ditched in favor of the other. Nosleep break my slumber 00:30, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Deja-vu anyone? We dropped that section shortly after the tour started last year: I'd leave it until all the team announce,ents are complete, then ditch it on about Friday. Kevin McE (talk) 07:17, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Uninentional. To my knowledge, I never edited that article or read the talk page. Nosleep  break my slumber 15:25, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I meant the discussion, not your raising of it. Kevin McE (talk) 15:46, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I, too, like having that section to give context as the teams are being named over a period of time. Doesn't matter much once the tour starts. DocOctopus (talk) 00:39, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that's problematic. Articles should not have a dated quality to them. What's written one day should be suitable for an article a month later, and vice versa. Nosleep  break my slumber 15:25, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it is an article/list relating to a future event, thus changes happen and are interesting to track. DocOctopus (talk) 16:32, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

National Champion Jerseys
I have edited the page to show national and world champions. I found the neatest way to do it, that didn't break up the visual design, was to add the jersey graphics beside the names and the notation below in small print. However, I can't seem to come up with a national jersey graphic for Norway or Belorus. Is there a list of these jersey graphics somewhere? DocOctopus (talk) 12:33, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As I recall, the reason given for adding national titles last year was to explain to readers why some riders might not be wearing their team jersey. Two points arise, one general, one rider-specific:
 * If we don't illustrate the team jersey, why show the alternative?Kevin McE (talk) 16:13, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I was trying to illustrate them all but couldn't find all the jersey icons. Even if we couldn't illustrate them all, the info is still there to solve the "Why is that guy in a weird jersey?" question. Also, for the less informed fans, the text is helpful in learning what the jerseys are about. DocOctopus (talk) 16:22, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Is poor Bert Grabsch to sweat under two thicknesses of jersey? Kevin McE (talk) 16:13, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Bert is a double champion and that's useful information to know if you are following the Tour closely, especially fans who only follow the Tour and not much else about pro tour cycling, or if you are choosing your fantasy cycling team in a game. DocOctopus (talk) 16:22, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * We really need to identify why we are showing these jerseys. If it is to act as some sort of viewers' guide (not, IMHO, an encyclopaedic function, and questionable in terms of WP:RECENT), then what is the justification of showing two jerseys for Grabsch? If it is about useful information for making a fantasy cycling team (where do such things exist?) then why is a national championship relevant and wins in a Grand Tour or Classic are not? Kevin McE (talk) 07:06, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * During that discussion, interest was expressed in using a list like this one instead: Is there still any interest in that?Kevin McE (talk) 16:13, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Lots of folks use the national/world champion jersey info to help them visually track who they are watching in the Tour. It's also useful info if you are trying to choose your fantasy cycling team for the TdF games, as many folks are right now. I believe this list is the only one of its kind that pulls together this much useful info about TdF participants. The list you line has good points (number order is useful) but I do like being able to see it all without so much scrolling as we have in the current version of this TdF list page. DocOctopus (talk) 16:22, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've set up a sortable version of the Giro 08 style of list of riders on my sandbox, with Cervelo and Silence teams on it, if anyone wants to have a look, and then we can discuss here which version is preferred. Personally, I'm still not convinced about the jerseys: it is making wiki into a viewers' guide rather than an encyclopaedia.  Why should Roche's Irish national championship be of more relevance than Menchov's Giro win? Kevin McE (talk) 18:15, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I like this a lot, and have implemented it. I didn't worry about jersey icons or the note field for now.Malo0178 (talk) 19:20, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The jerseys are helpful for folks watching the race since those racers do not wear team kit.DocOctopus (talk) 19:43, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Great initiative, DocOctopus. This was done last year aswell, but I really like how the jerseys are reflecting the National and World Champions this year. I took the liberty of placing the jersey icons in front of the information, to better reflect it. When it comes to the proposal by Kevin; I like the idea of a sortable table, but it should be used in addition to the current table. Sorted by finishing position as default, it can serve as a substitute for the full GC table and the withdrawals table previously found in the main article. lil2mas (talk) 19:52, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, love the initial arrows, but the jerseys on the second line not so much. Not sure why, perhaps just because it visually interrupts the vertical line of the flags. :o) A sortable table is a great idea once we know the race numbers and to use during the Tour. I have no idea how to create one, though. I think the race numbers should be assigned by Thursday. When they are they will be posted here (official list from Tour officials) [ http://www.letour.com/2009/TDF/RIDERS/us/partants.html ] DocOctopus (talk) 22:22, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Just noticed this comment after I replaced the original tables. I don't see the point in having both, but I'd like to hear other's opinions. Malo0178 (talk) 19:26, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Please can we have the initial tables back? What a shock. The initial tables  are much better for someone just scanning for info on a rider and what not - they don't involve lots of scrolling, just brief and easy to see information. The table you made is nice but please move it to a separate page.  The sortable table should be in addition to, not in replacement of, this list that we use each year which is focused on Teams.  Your sortable table is more about individual racers. I prefer the "discuss here first" suggestion of Kevin before making such a drastic change. Thanks. DocOctopus (talk) 19:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Why would it need to be on a separate page? I've made it a second section. It will be a pain to keep both up-to-date, but I believe both have their merits. Malo0178 (talk) 20:21, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for restoring the original tables. I have noticed a start list with race numbers is now up at cyclingnews.com, but not showing on the official site at letour.com yet. CyclingNews can't totally be trusted since they show Quickstep with 10 racers numbered 131 to 140. Very odd. DocOctopus (talk) 20:18, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, those can't be correct, as Sastre and Cervelo should start the numbering, not AG2R, correct? Malo0178 (talk) 20:43, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I think it looks good now, I only have one suggestion; and that is to skip the column for position in the teams section. Firstly because it requires double updating, and secondly because it might be more difficult to distinguish between two columns with just numbers adjacent to each other. Because of the latter reason, I also suggest that the age-column in the cyclist section should be moved between the team and the country-column. I would also like to have a note-column next to the position-column, where eg. a reason for DNF/DNS could be stated. Okay, that was more than one suggestion, but what do you folks think? lil2mas (talk) 22:00, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * My proposal on the sandbox incorporated a notes column, if it is desired that that be rolled out.Kevin McE (talk) 07:18, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Given that the only reasons proposed for the national champions' jerseys' inclusion in this list were identification of the riders and choosing riders for a fantasy team, is it desirable that they stay on the article now that the race has finished? Kevin McE (talk) 09:55, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No-one suggested that it is desirable, so removed. Kevin McE (talk) 16:08, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Abandons
Where's the list of riders who have dropped out, for what reason, and when? BT14 (talk) 15:58, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No separate list, but they are shown on this page as DNF or DNS. There was a discussion a while ago about making a style guide, and it was decided then. Kevin McE (talk) 16:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Sortability of cyclists list
Looking at what has happened on the equivalent page for this year's Giro, there seems to be a problem about sortability of the cyclists list by finishing order. I suspect, without specialist programming knowledge, that the inclusion of DNFs etc means that the list is sorted other than by numerical order, and so it shows as 1st, 10th, 100th, ...19th, 100th, etc.

Ideally, it would sort to give winner to lanterne rouge in finishing order, and then riders withdrawing in order of how much of the race thay did complete (so HD-20 rated higher than DNF-20, rated higher than DNS-20, rated higher than HD-19 etc...), but how? Kevin McE (talk) 08:51, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I think I've got it sorted: it'll need 180 posted before Van de Walle's DNS-3, and 179  before the DNF-4 by Rooijakers' name etc.  If anyone has a more elegant solution, please post it here, otherwise I'll apply this this afternoon (UK time). Kevin McE (talk) 09:41, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I thought of this at job one day, and I only came up with the solution you gave. I skimmed through Help:Sorting, and couldn't find any easier way to do the sorting. But I found a template, Hs, which does the same as  180 DNS-3, but you don't have to write more than  HS 180 DNS-3. I can implement it now, just change it later if another idea comes up. lil2mas (talk) 12:17, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The sorting templates are the way to go. The other option is . SeveroTC 14:04, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

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