Talk:List of terms for ethnic out-groups/Archive 1

Intro
I have amended the first sentence of the intro because it better describes exactly what an ethnic exogroup actually is, and it is nicely qualified by its following sentences. The previous sentence said ethnic exogroup refers to all people who do not belong to a particular ethnic group. That isn't strictly true. That would mean that Pākehā includes Afghans or Finns because they are not Maori. Don't think that was intended. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 01:26, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, according to the wider definition, Afghans and Finns are both Pakeha. According to my Reed Pocket Dictionary of Modern Maori, one of the meanings of Pakeha is 'non-Maori', and if it wasn't, it wouldn't belong on this list. In practice, of course, it usually means white New Zealander. --Helenalex (talk) 03:27, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the "wider definition" is well and truly trumped by actual usage, plus the two opening phrases of our definition of the word pākehā, namely -- "A Maori term for non-Polynesians living in New Zealand, usually used for those of European descent specifically.....". Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 03:44, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Pākehā
I believe that the inclusion of Pākehā as a xenophobic (expressing fear or hatred of strangers or foreigners) word violates WP:POV on several counts.
 * Firstly the implication that non-Māori New Zealanders are still "foreigners" is contentious and usually confined to those classing themselves as radical or separatist.
 * Similarly the idea that the word implies fear or hatred is a very non-neutral viewpoint. Consider the statement "Though some African Americans embrace the term 'nigger', it is now often considered politically incorrect." (the second part of which would be a considerable understatement) - but Pakeha has never been in that league.


 * Also, Pākehā is not a "Maori term" - it has been in general use by Maori and non-Maori since early days (the reference discussed below points out that 18th-19th century missionaries used the words of themselves, with the implication that it was not considered derogatory in their time) and appears in the media as a neutral word.
 * It is true that some people consider terms like Pākehā and tau iwi to be discriminatory, but without sources based on comprehensive research it can't be concluded that this is a majority viewpoint.

The one reference cited - which is written by a primary teacher rather than an academic and which only discusses the claim it is supposed to support in passing - is an essay and primary source, quite clearly stating that it is one person's opinion.

If there are similar cases for other words listed, I would go so far as to suggest that this article should be deleted as inherently non-neutral. dramatic (talk) 03:02, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * All of the information in this article is summarizing the information on the Pākehā article page, so I would recommend taking up the issue their first; if nothing else, it would allow more editors to contribute. Also note that the xenophobia in the title does not necessitate that the word describe only people from another country, but any who do not belong to a certain cultural/ethnic group, and that 'the majority' do not have to see it as discriminatory to merit listing. The Myotis (talk) 03:28, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * As a Pakeha, I'm okay with the term being on the list, since it specifies that 'xenophobic' doesn't necessarily mean derogatory. (The same goes for Palagi) However I dispute the contention that it is not a 'politically correct' term - if anything it is more PC than the main alternative (NZ European), which some people find objectionable as well. I will try and find some sources referring to the acceptability or otherwise of the term. --Helenalex (talk) 09:56, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * But I don't think that a particular wikipedia article can redefine a word, espeicially one that brings strong meanings with it. See, xenophobia or any good dictionary. You can't take the fear out of phobia. The fact that the entry reversed the many/few implication from [pakeha] has been corrected by subsequent edits, so that is no longer such a worry, but if the xenophobic (in its true meaning) interpretation of the word is a minority viewpoint, that still makes its inclusion on this list unaceptable. dramatic (talk) 03:57, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I hardly think that minority POV makes its entry unacceptable. Skimming through the list of ethnic slurs I see a number of terms that, even by their own admission, are not usually considered offensive, but are at least seen as not PC. This is not an attempt to redefine a word, only to show that is is sometimes interpreted as derogatory and/or exclusionary. Since the word's description makes this clear, I do not see what your problem with it is. The Myotis (talk) 00:24, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Having actually looked up 'xenophobic' in the Oxford English Dictionary, it does imply hatred, offensiveness etc. Therefore 'pakeha' should not be on this list, nor should palagi and probably quite a few other terms. Unless someone finds a properly sourced defintion of xenophobic which doesn't imply offensiveness, the list should be culled down, or merged into List of ethnic slurs. --Helenalex (talk) 03:37, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I know when I was in New Zealand, I felt uncomfortable being referred to as "paheka". Especially since I'm not actually a European-descent New Zealander at all.  I realise a lot of people don't have a problem with it, but in some circumstances it certainly seems to have the potential to cause offence, which would put it squarely in the category of words this article is talking about.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 10:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC).

Page misnamed
Sounds like this page is misnamed - many of the terms it discusses are simply terms that are used to refer to people of other ethnicities - surely that is not xenophobia. I agree with Helenalex - ''pakeha' should not be on this list, nor should palagi and probably quite a few other terms' Kāhuroa (talk) 18:41, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Is there a term for 'terms which denote everyone outside a particular group'? If so, this page could be renamed accordingly. Having said that, quite a lot of terms which supposedly refer to all non-x are often used to refer specifically to the biggest group of non-x - Pakeha can mean all non-Maori but in practice almost always means white people or white NZers as opposed to Pacific Island, Asian etc NZers. Likewise I think goy and gentile theoretically refer to all non-Jewish people but in practice don't tend to include, for example, Chinese Buddhists. --Helenalex (talk) 05:20, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Exogroup? Or is that a bit too anthropological? Opposite of exogroup is endogroup Kāhuroa (talk) 21:28, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Exogroup seems very accurate. How do we word the title though? List of terms for ethnic exogroups? Intro needs editing too. The first sentence is incomplete. Nurg (talk) 13:02, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Moved. Will change the text to match. --Helenalex (talk) 22:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Often derogatory?
I have requested a citation for "Exogroup terms are often, but not always, considered to be somewhat derogatory". My feeling is that the people in the endogroup usually do not use them with a derogatory connotation. Some people in the exogroup (particularly the insecure or those who are themselves biased) might perceive the term as derogatory, but usually that is a error. Nurg (talk) 10:21, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I've reworded the sentence to make it more general. Some exogroup terms are derogatory in at least some circumstances, as the article makes clear. --Helenalex (talk) 21:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Haole
The Haole article in this work, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haole, indicates that the word is pretty specifically for Caucasians. The listing here claims general usage for foreigners.

Needs to be made consistent, maybe? GeorgeTSLC (talk) 21:49, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

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