Talk:List of the KLF's creative associates

Screencap
It would be great to have a screencap from one of The KLF's single promo videos, depicting several of the Children of the Revolution. Unfortunately I am currently unable to provide one... :-) --Vinoir 12:40, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Try to be a bit more subtle next time! :P Which video did you have in mind? --kingboyk 13:07, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Hehe! I wasn't directing the request solely at you, though, but to any passing KLF enthusiast. :) I don't have a particular video in mind, and I'm not even convinced that the article needs a piccy. It would be a mildly-informative adornment.  --Vinoir 14:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think we have one we could use in one of the singles articles. I'll have a look now. I might need some help with the caption. --kingboyk 14:49, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * This is the best we have at the moment: Image:The KLF - 3 a.m. Eternal video.jpg. I could probably knock something better up, once we've decided what to do with the article. --kingboyk 14:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Cool, good stuff. I'll see if I can find out who they are. --Vinoir 16:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Any news or further thoughts on this? --kingboyk 16:24, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Haven't been able to determine who they are. I personally think that if the prose is staying at The KLF discography for now, then the picture is unnecessary in that context. --Vinoir 16:33, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Template
should a link to this article be included in the klf template? Zzzzz 12:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * i took the liberty of adding it there (and removing the section from the klf article). this is to satisfy a FAC comment. Zzzzz 13:37, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * oops didnt see the "personnel" link was already in there, sorry! Zzzzz 13:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Vinoir had already added it at the bottom (edit conflict, you now already know that :)). If we want it at the top, next to Bill & Jimmy, I think we should use a piped link, something like "Additional personnel", so not to give any impression that The KLF were anything other than those 2 men. --kingboyk 13:52, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Is it better at the top? I think that if it's at the top of the template, it dilutes the more accurate message of The KLF being the labour of love of just two men.  I personally think that it would sit better elsewhere (maybe under the name "The Children of the Revolution", although Tammy, Glenn et al were not aforementioned "Children"). --Vinoir 14:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Change it back then. As I stated in my edit summary it was a "try this for size" edit :) --kingboyk 14:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I can't get it looking "right" ("Personnel" is not the right name, and "Children of the Revolution" stretches the box too much for me), so I'll leave it as is for now. :) --Vinoir 16:16, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

At the very least we must change the article name, as it sends out an incorrect message. "The KLF additional communicators", "The KLF collaborators", "The KLF - additional communicators", "Musicians who worked with The KLF", "Artists who worked with The KLF" - any of these but not "The KLF personnel"! --kingboyk 12:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Not sure about this article
I'm not sure it was wise to fork this out. If I take that as a given, I'm not sure about the name nor about it being hidden away in the KLF template. I can live with it, I'm just not 100% convinced. --kingboyk 13:47, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * it was forked to bring The KLF article down to size. A small summary section with a "main article" tag pointing to this one (with any name that might be better) would also be ok. Zzzzz 13:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm now of the opinion that this article is difficult. Creating this article was a reactionary move on my part to Zzzzz's trimming of the The KLF.  Although I like the formatting/style changes within that article, this "personnel" offshoot now strikes me as a contrivance dictated (presumably?) by browser limitations.  I'm not sure these additional contributors collectively merit what is essentially an out-of-context article.  Also, the title is definitely misleading, sorry about that.  "The Children of the Revolution" might well be a better name.  The FAC took me by surprise too! --Vinoir 14:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Definitely lacks context. It could go into the discography, but it would be a bit out of place there too. If we trimmed a few lines here and there is it assuredly too much for the main article? --kingboyk 14:47, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sure it could belong in the discography. The information relates to performers on the recordings listed, and is gathered from sleevenotes and labels.  --Vinoir 13:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * A bit tenuous, but anyway... I've done a merge, see what you think. --kingboyk 13:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it's okay. I've tinkered with it a little.  I know it seems a bit out of place at first, but in my mind it's a worthy venue for the section.  I mean, each single/album article will have a "personnel/additional contributors" section, and The KLF discography, giving an overview of all releases, seems an appropriate place to put the overview of all major additional contributors.  Have I convinced you yet? :-) --Vinoir 15:48, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * No. Next question? :P It's fine where it is, it's better than in a badly named article or in the trash. --kingboyk 16:04, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * To be honest, the very best place for it is in The KLF, but it seems that it's not to be. --Vinoir 16:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

(ker-ching!) If it's really not suitable material for the discography, there are two other options to consider: cut it right down to a few lines, and put it in The KLF (I don't think a slimline version would be worth a section there though); or, we could scrap it - I haven't any great personal attachment to it, and the contribution details will be available in the various single and album articles. What we would then be without is the "where they are now" info and the Wanda Dee story. Given the general level of detail we are at with the KLF articles, I'd say those bits are not excessive (they provide context), but nor are they vital. --Vinoir 16:42, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Let's leave it where it is for now. It's growing on me, as it's added some substance to that article. Let's get the FA candidacy out of the way and revisit this issue later, yeah? --kingboyk 16:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Okey-dokey. --Vinoir 16:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The latest on this is that the reviewers at the discography's featured list candidacy didn't like it there. I removed it from that article and placed it in project space until we can decide what to do with it. I think it's useful information. The question remains what to do with it though?
 * Leave it here
 * Put it back into The KLF
 * Rename it something like List of The KLF's creative associates (because "List of x" seems to be the naming convention).
 * --kingboyk 13:38, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Over a year later, I've shipped the article out to List of The KLF's creative associates. I think it's too good to waste. --kingboyk (talk) 12:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And now over a decade later, I can say I'm happy with the decision to make this into a separate list. --kingboyk (talk) 18:40, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

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Alex Paterson
The article stated that, wrt Chill Out, Alex Paterson "is thanked on the sleeve. "

It's been here since at the latest an edit of mine in 2007 (it's hard to find when exactly it was added as the material here was shuffled around when we were trying to find a home for it, but the point is I've edited the article before without challenging this and may even have written it).

I've looked and looked again at the scans of both JAMS LP5 and JAMS CD5 at discogs.com, and I can't see any mention of Alex at all. Either it's hidden away in print so tiny I can't see it, or there is no such acknowledgement.

I'm as keen as anyone to know the truth about whether Alex was involved with Chill Out and if so to what extent, but as I cannot verify this particular assertion I am going to have to remove it for now. cc User:Wickethewok the resident Orb expert. --kingboyk (talk) 19:57, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Ambient house says "Out of Paterson and Cauty's sessions at Trancentral studio, came Cauty and Bill Drummond's KLF album Chill Out (which featured no credit to Paterson  " (emphasis mine). That's one of the books the article The Orb relies on to say Paterson helped make the album, but the Orb article also says it was uncredited. So, at least, I think we have the "uncredited" bit cleared up?
 * This stuff is so hard to unravel. If you listen to early Orb, "Mummy Don't", Space, early mixes of 3am, there are clear overlaps in sound and in particular in samples (especially "Bobby and Betty Go to the Moon" and NASA samples) which reoccur... I don't get that with Chill Out.


 * I'm working on doing what I can to document The Land of Oz sessions at Heaven (nightclub) atm (and related articles) so we'll see what else I find. --kingboyk (talk) 20:41, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
 * More at Talk:Ambient_house from long ago. I think I'm going to put the quotes given there into the citations in the relevant articles.--kingboyk (talk) 21:06, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Work done:
 * Rewritten Paterson's entry here, and filled it with references
 * I found a great piece in The Guardian which I've been able to use to add new info or add citations for existing statements about the relationship between Youth, Paterson and Cauty, and about Space, the Land of Oz, etc
 * I've added the actual quotes from the books which mention Paterson's involvement in Chill Out, here and in The Orb and in the album article, whilst leaving it clear that the album is credited to Cauty and Drummond (as the former is surely a minority view in the sources); I think that's the best we can do unless new info emerges
 * I've added the Land of Oz sessions to Heaven (nightclub). Shocking that they weren't there already!
 * Copyedited ambient house
 * Done some work on The Orb

I found another article about the early Orb, Alex's council house in Battersea, Land of Oz, Chill out etc. Too tired to do anything with it right now and I think there's nothing in it which isn't covered by the work I've done today and the existing sources.

I note that one of the books wick cited has Alex claim involvement in early mixes of 3am and WTIL and that seems highly believable given the similarities in sound and samples noted above. I think that the early ambient works were a free for all, particularly as Jimmy thought the Orb would become a KLF Comms band and much of the work was done at Trancentral. Chill Out I have an open mind on and have (of course) reported what the sources say and left it for the reader to decide. I hope one day Jimmy will spill the beans but I doubt it. Over and out. --kingboyk (talk) 07:36, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll be going through that other source today, plus 2 others I found, but really this has now become a conversation about The Orb and on top of that I am talking to myself :) --kingboyk (talk) 03:00, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Here's some more interesting fuel for the fire: at 2:36 on the KLF's Pet Shop Boys mix "It Must Be Obvious (UFO Mix)", what do we have? The "Mummy Don't" sample! :) --kingboyk (talk) 04:22, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Chike
Should probably be in the "Additional communicators" section. I'm still tracking down references, but for starters he is credited with the "Ancients of Mu Mu" chant from 1987 on ref KLF005CD-notes due to it being sampled on that record. --kingboyk (talk) 18:45, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Also need references for him in the 1987 article, if not already there. --kingboyk (talk) 18:53, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Youth (Martin Glover)
Martin lived with Jimmy, but is musically known more for his work with Paterson. He has a lot of uncredited material with KLF doesn't he? Should he rank as an associate? SchmuckyTheCat (talk) 23:02, 1 November 2022 (UTC)