Talk:List of the Mayors of the Palace

Can anyone elucidate the details of the history of Pepin of Heristal and Nordebert and their relationship? And why remove the ordinal numbers of the Pepins? They are more commonly used than the nicknames presented throughout Wikipedia and they only make sense in a listing of mayors of tha palace. Srnec 20:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Dear Srnec, let me reply and also explain my newest edits:
 * I have found no reference for the relationship between Pepin and Norbert except that the latter was a follower of the former. I though I remembered that they were brothers but I couldn't find that anywhere (and most importantly not where I thought I had read it (Karl Ferdinand Werner's History of France, volume 1).
 * In fact, I was wrong in saying that N. was mayor. Pepin was mayor of Neustria (and interestingly only of Neustria, not of Austria) while residing in Austria. N. was his reprsentative on the king's court in Neustria until Grimoald took over the office of mayor. After that, Pepin officially was not mayor at all but wielded his authority as prince and duke
 * P's succession is a bit tricky too. He appointed Theodald as his heir and as mayor in Neustria and explicitely excluded Karl Martell. Theodald was driven out of Neustria by the nobility who appointed Raganfred. When Theodald died is unclear (sources say soon, but others might confirm his presence in 723) and his right was pursued by his grand-mother Plektrud. She had to yield first to Raganfred and then to Karl Martell.
 * I agree with you on the nick-names. They came up during the 18th century and enjoyed favour during the nick-name friendly nineteenth. However, I oppose using ordinals as these are normally restricted for kings (a modern parallel would be the William Pitts). Even Grimoald I and II is less than perfect, but since there never was a King Grimoald at least there's no danger of confusing them. But it's not so with the Pepins. In German, the additions "the Elder", "the Middle" and "the Younger" (sometimes unfortunately still given as "the Short", claiming a difference to his son "the Great" - in fact both men were of tall stature) are common.

Str1977 11:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)