Talk:List of towns in England/Archive 1

Cleobury Mortimer
Cleobury Mortimer in Shropshire is a town. I know this for sure and despite its size it is refered to as a town in Shropshire all the time. Talk:Cleobury Mortimer :) David 21:47, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Southsea
Southsea is not a town. It is a urban parish within the unitary authority of Portsmouth, see http://www.southseatowncouncil.co.uk/h1.htm. It is misleading to claim town status as the parish council only covers 25% of the area called Southsea. The Town Council name is self granted and meaningless in law Nuttah68 15:07, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

link to List of civil parishes in England
I've been watching this page for a few months now. While the preamble at the top states that this is the list of towns with charters it doesn't include a link to the list of Civil Parishes or a discussion of the differences. I feel it could be expanded & clarified.MGSpiller 23:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * An entity can be both - a town and a parish. All four in my local government district are. - fchd 06:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Looking at the definition of what a town is almost makes this article pointless. Any local government body, at any level, can declare itself a 'town'. Maybe what we need is a article of towns with official recognition (charter, letters patent etc) and the rest move to the appropriate aministrative council level article.
 * This started with Southsea, which I still maintain is not a town as a)it is wholly within the borders of the City of Portsmouth and b)the 'town' council represents less than a quarter of Southsea Nuttah68 17:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * To a large extent this is the list of chartered towns. For simplicities sake I'm going to presume that any local government body larger than a civil parish either is a town or a collection of towns already. Perhaps it would help to move the page to List of chartered towns in England? MGSpiller 19:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think as the creator of this article I'm somewhat responsible for the confusion here. We really need to decide whether it is a list of chartered towns, a list of places with town councils, or if (as present) the criteria are more complex, we need to specify exactly what they are.  If we can find consensus on this, then questions on the position of Southsea and the title of the article should have obvious answers. Thoughts? Warofdreams talk 02:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Half the problem seems to be that, for the UK at least, the term 'town' has no defined meaning and can be applied to anywhere by anyone. Nuttah68 16:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

West & South Yorkshire
There are a lot of places in this area that refer to themselves as towns yet are not on the list. Whether they are official towns or not, I don't know. Someone might want to check though:
 * Heckmondwike
 * Horbury
 * Liversedge
 * Mirfield
 * South Kirkby & Moorthorpe
 * South Elmsall

Note that the last three all call their council a "town council". Heckmondwike has a market. Epa101 12:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * "Official" is a difficult term here, but Heckmondwike, Mirfield and South Elmsall certainly seem to count. Horbury and Liversedge don't seem to meet any of the criteria.  South Kirkby and Moorthorpe is (in my view) best omitted, as it is not a simple example of a town, but rather a multi-centred parish which has (declared itself?) a town. Warofdreams talk 16:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

South Kirkby & Moorthorpe has indeed declared itslef to be a town. This is not without precedent. Ossett, where I live, was originally founded as "Ossett-cum-Gawthorpe", and then just shortened to "Ossett". Horbury has a town hall, and all of the locals refer to it as a town. Don't know much about Liversedge, although it is a "postal town" - letters are just Liversedge, West Yorkshire. Epa101 16:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Grimethorpe calls its centre a "town centre" on all signposts and in council documents. They may also be worth consideration. Epa101 16:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The town hall in Horbury is an argument for its inclusion, although Google turns up a lot of sites referring to it as a village and rather fewer talking about it as a town. This tendency is even more pronounced in the case of Grimethorpe.  The postal town isn't very relevant here; many villages and suburbs have postal addresses typically in this format. Warofdreams talk 02:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I've added Heckmondwike and South Elmsall to the list, for I cannot see how anyone can dispute how they are towns. Shall wait a bit longer in case of further comments on the rest. Epa101 10:07, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Now added more: Mirfield, South Kirkby & Moorthorpe, Brierley all on there; they fit the legal definition. However, now I note some places that are on there that maybe shouldn't be. What about Featherstone, Knottingley and Stainforth? What basis is there for calling them towns? None of them call their councils "town councils". Featherstone has a market, but the other two don't. Epa101 17:36, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, Featherstone does have a town council. I just saw that it listed a parish clerk [rather than a town clerk] on a Wakefield district website.  Epa101 09:15, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, thanks for the additions. Stainforth also has a town council (see ).  Knottingley has a town hall, but it's pretty marginal. Warofdreams talk 18:44, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Liphook
Can I ask why you've removed Liphook from List of towns in England? Nuttah68 08:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I removed Liphook from the list as it is not a town. It has no town council, no market and no sign of ever having had a town charter.  Even our article on it states "Liphook is a large village in Hampshire, England." Warofdreams talk 14:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


 * In England there is no official entity of a 'Town Council', it is a title that any parish council can adopt. In fact there is no longer any legal or official definition of a 'Town'. To deny Liphook the place on this list merely because one editor has used the word 'village' is arbitrary. Unless you have amore valid reason, will you agree to my restoring it to the list? Nuttah68 20:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * No. Can I repeat that Liphook does not meet *any* criterion for being a town.  It is not a town. Warofdreams talk 13:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, you are still going to provide a better reason for removing Liphook from the list. Either that, or the list gets a major edit as looking through the current article well over 50% of the 'towns' do not meet the criteria as you list them. As a starter Basingstoke, Eastleigh and Milton Keynes do not meet the rules other than they have choosen to call their council a 'town council'. Nuttah68 17:52, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * To add further weight, here is the town of Liphook's page from the Hampshire County Council website. http://www.hants.gov.uk/localpages/south_east/liphook/ Nuttah68 18:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * As discussed above, a clear definition of what constitutes a town for the purposes of this article would be useful. However, there is no consensus that Liphook is a town.  Given that any parish council which feels that the settlement it serves deserved the title "town" can rename themselves, and yet Bramshott and Liphook Parish Council has not done this, this seems a further argument against including Liphook. Warofdreams talk 22:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The adoption and use of the term 'town council' is a matter of political sensitivity. Fareham (pop 108,000) has a borough council, because as well as including the town it encompasses many outlying areas that would not consider themselves part of a town. Havant has a borough council as the council boundaries also includes the town of Waterlooville which has a population of 45,000. Southsea, as discussed earlier, has a town council even though it is in central Portsmouth and has never existed as a seperate entity in its life (it was built as a wealthier suburb of Portsmouth). Here the term has been adopted as Southsea has a different ruling party to the rest of the city.
 * Liphook council serves areas other than just the town of Liphook, so has not choosen to take the name 'town' for its council. I still maintain that Hampshire CC recognition of Liphook as a town should be enough for inclusion on this list.
 * The list either has to be only those places that have been awarded the title of 'town' by some higher body and most entries removed, or there has to be an acceptance that the term town is subjective and anything showing use of the word town to describe a place is enough for entry on the list. Nuttah68 15:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Clearly, it wouldn't be possible to have a list which included places with "anything showing use of the word town". You can find places which are actually very small villages described as towns on some websites - either because they use the term for any settlement, or because they are written by people who do not know, or do not care about local usage.  What does work at present is including places which are commonly described as towns.  Usually, having a town council is good evidence of this, as is having a market, annual fair or other feature associated with having received a town charter.  As I say, I clear debate about what to include will be useful, but under no sensible definition can Liphook be included. Warofdreams talk 00:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Liphook is commonly called a town. Hampshire County Council, a higher tier of government, recognises Liphook as a town as I have shown. Liphook has held markets since the 1600s until recently. It has held a fair and carnival annually since the same time. How much more do you want?
 * I'm afraid your unwillingness to accept recognition from a higher tier of government of Liphook as a town rather strange. Yet you have not questioned many other places that have less to back up their claim. Up to now, it appears that you accept a wikipedia mention of village over a official mention of town. Nuttah68 16:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, that's promising. I can't find anything online, but if you have sources for it having had a market and a fair, they can go in the Liphook article, and we then have some evidence for Liphook being a town.  Whether or not one page on Hampshire County Council's website calls Liphook a town is irrelevant; it's unsourced, and plenty of other pages on their site refer to it as a village.  If you have some specific places in mind on this list which don't fit the criteria, then by all means let's look at them, but Basingstoke, Milton Keynes and Eastleigh fall into the "generally referred to as a town" category, so should be included under current guidelines. Warofdreams talk 23:55, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * TBH, no I can no longer be bothered with this debate. The criteria are subjective and list has become meaningless and POV. A quick skim of the list shows housing estates and suburbs scattered throughout, let alone hamlet/village/town questionables. I am the only person researching the topic. If you want my sources, type Liphook into Google, it's all there in the first 30 returns. Nuttah68 16:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * As far as I can determine, Liphook is described about half the time as a village (with a village hall and a village surgery), and the other half as a town (e.g. by Hamps. Council and Thompson yellow pages). Perhaps we could include all possible towns, but use italics for those that have no charter.    D b f i r s   11:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Completeness
Is this list believed to be complete? If it's not, a Template:Expand list would be good. (I've just noticed Stokesley was missing and added it. It has a town council, town hall, a market, and is referred to as a town in its article.)  — ras52 12:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The list is unlikely to be complete, but there probably aren't a large number of missing entries. I'm doubtfule about adding expand list, as we already get plenty of places added which fit none of the criteria of a town, but someone feels should appear on the list. Warofdreams talk 02:06, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

There are currently 1173 towns on this list - according to http://www.ruralcommunities.gov.uk/files/CA%20141.pdf there are "1,274 market towns in England", but it's not clear where this figure comes from, or whether it includes all towns and cities. Might there be an official list of towns somewhere in the depths of gov.uk? — sjorford++ 11:51, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Toxteth?
What basis is there for calling Toxteth a town? On http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk, it doesn't even seem to have been a separate place from Liverpool at any point.
 * I believe that it is because it has a town hall. However, toxteth.net states "Even though the locals call 'Toxteth Town Hall' by this name, it is not and never has been a Town Hall", so I've removed it. Warofdreams talk 16:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Quite correct, of course. It was a park, not a town.    D b f i r s   07:37, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Classifying towns?
This list has a problem; namely that the word "town" has several different meanings, some official, some not. Places on this list:
 * may or may not have been given a town charter
 * may be civil parishes that have simply chosen the epithet "town council"
 * may have city or borough status
 * may be new towns with neither a single town council or a town charter (e.g. Milton Keynes?)
 * may have been incorporated into a larger town/city, and no longer have a separate town council (e.g. Sutton Coldfield)

I think, to be useful, the list ought to contain all of these, so I'm not suggesting any radical cutting (except to get rid of those places that are definitely villages). However, it would definitely be useful to have a note by each town explaining how it deserves to be here. That would also give it added value over and above Category:Towns in England. Thoughts? — sjorford++ 16:23, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * We don't seem to have any criteria for inclusion or exclusion. In country areas, many large villages are called towns, especially if they have markets (see Reeth below).  We seem to be including only medium & large towns, or those that have several of the characteristics of a town.  How do we decide?    D b f i r s   07:52, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

London
Does anyone know on what criteria have places in Greater London been added to this list? MRSC (talk) 15:37, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I've removed them as its completely miss leading. Likelife (talk) 20:12, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Reverted all these changes as these have no doubt been included as the original settlements had town status under various circumstances long before Greater London came into being and retain this status going forward in the form of a suburban town (or maybe as a market town). If you had looked at the individual article pages you should have found a reference to this. If any are any that are not clear I would suggest you bring them here first and also raise a question about their status on the article page. This has been debated previously within the Project also.Tmol42 (talk) 20:53, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes but these are not considered as towns but as suburbs in one city by legal terms. Places like Manchester is considered a city and not a town just because it use to be one. There are no references on the pages to confirm that they are towns. If we go by original settlements, everywhere would still be classed as villages.Likelife (talk) 22:32, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Not clear what you mean by "legal terms". Many if not most towns outside London are administed by a larger legal entity, borough or district, but this does not result in them losing their town status. The two issues are mutually exclusive. In other words just because a town has become subsumed into a larger urban area does not mean it loses its status as a town. You refer to Manchester and like all the other cities you will find it listed as a town on the article page, all be it emboldened to indicate its a historic town which has been granted city status. This acquired city status does not undo its historic town status and origins. If you have an issue about a statement about the town's status on a town article page not having a cite add a tag on that page, checking first that it is not dealt with elsewhere in the article. I doubt there are no references at all but no doubt there are some that could be improved.
 * I suspect if you look at any of the articles on the towns in the Greater London Area, that you had deleted, they will typically refer to being a "suburban town" in the lead section and in the history section they most frequently talk about how they were granted a town charter or have become a town by some other now historic reason. Editors working on the London Project have largely standardised the leads and a typical one would be as in the following example. Barking is a suburban town in the London Borough of Barking and Dagenham, in north-east London. A different example would be ''Coulsdon.... a town on the southernmost boundary of the London Borough of Croydon. It is surrounded by the Greater London greenbelt......".
 * Greater London is the administrative body covering the City of London and the Boroughs, and towns will crop up in nearly if not all these boroughs. Similarily there are towns located in the other urban areas across Britain in the list.Tmol42 (talk) 23:37, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * So we could double the length of our list by including places that were once towns but are no longer recognisable as such? As you say, most medium & large modern towns and cities are amalgamations.  Should we have a separate list of former towns?    D b f i r s   07:36, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No. I suspect very nearly all towns are already on the list, a few are no doubt missing but hardly enough to affect the article length, and in any case that would not be a reason not to add them. I stress again these so-called suburban towns are not "former towns" even if they may no longer be "recogised as such" as you describe, they still are towns in the traditional sense, assuming the town charter had not been revoked which happened occaisonally and historically and in a few cases Town Councils may have been wound up but these are exceptional. Regardless of whether the town becomes surrounded by urban area or remains with a belt of green fields it is still a town. Tmol42 (talk) 12:52, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Molesey
I note that this place has been added as a town, though it is described as two villages in one of the references. Does it have a charter?  D b f i r s   07:21, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Ubication
Why are cities ordered only by name and no indication whatsoever of there general position is given? (northern, western, eastern, central or southern England) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.233.219.179 (talk • contribs) 23:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * ... because this information is only a simple click away.   D b f i r s   07:30, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Reeth
I have just removed Reeth again after I had restored it along with other (vandalistic) deletions. Probably the only justification for calling it a town is the market. This website uses both "town" and "village". There must be many hundreds of villages that have some characteristics of towns, and are sometimes so-called locally. We really ought to specify the criteria that we use. I suggest that places be included only if they have at least three town characteristics (such as market charter, town hall, town council, actual market ...), but that just moves the problem to a list of characteristics. Can anyone suggest any answers?  D b f i r s   08:08, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * There is a practical definition with reasonably workable / clear criteria set out on the article about towns relating to England and Wales see Town. What a town is, is not something that can be absolutely tied down to all imbracing rules but having watched this article for some time my judgements when a town is added or substracted to the list is to look at the specific article page on the basis this will be normally correct with reference to the settlement's history/ governance if its complicated. Unless there is some contemporary discussion on status in progress on the talk page I revert or not accordingly.Tmol42 (talk) 15:14, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the guidance on the criteria. Reeth (as the "Capital of Swaledale", with a market) satisfies some of them, but not others.  Our article says "village" so that indicates that it should not be included in the list of towns.    D b f i r s   18:46, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * ... although if we include the village of Milnthorpe as a town ... ?   D b f i r s   07:53, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * According to the information recorded in Records relating to the Barony of Kendale: volume 3 (1926), pp. 222-233 as reported here Milnthorpe was a market town. There is a reference here to a market charter being awarded in 1334 by Edward III. During Medieval times it was also an important sea-port although this importance subsequently reduced. By the way there seems to be suggestions that Reeth was granted a royal charter or otherwise to hold a market during the reign of William amd Mary see here if this is commentary is verifiable then the Reeth article should be amended and Reeth included in the list of towns in this article.Tmol42 (talk) 14:37, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll leave things as they are for now, because Reeth probably prefers to be called a village.  There's now doubt about Bircotes, part of the civil parish of Harworth & Bircotes.  It seems to be described regularly as a village, but sometimes as a town.    D b f i r s   08:37, 22 April 2010 (UTC)


 * ( ... and thanks, Tmol42, for correcting my silly mistake over Bottesford. I think I must have been more than half asleep!)    D b f i r s   08:47, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Review
I've started to review this list, and as I suspected it is a random and incomplete collection with no criteria for inclusion other than "known as a town in some context". Looking at the list for London. The entries can be placed into a number of categories:


 * 1) places without any history of civic existence, not even a parish
 * 2) places that have been ancient parishes but nothing more and were absorbed into other towns/boroughs circa 1900-1935
 * 3) metropolitan boroughs of the County of London
 * 4) places that have been municipal boroughs
 * 5) ancient market towns and boroughs

I propose removing all entries in the first three categories. The rationale is that the first two are 'colloquially towns' and it is subjective to include them. For London alone a large part of List of districts of London could be added to the list. The third category of metropolitan boroughs 1900-1965 is because these were never towns in any sense of the word. Wandsworth (the example we have) was made up of multiple parishes: Clapham, Putney, etc.

For the last two categories, which is what is detailed in the introduction - i.e. towns through historic charter right - our list is far from complete. For example it does not include all of List of market towns in London.

Outside London the list should be restricted to successor parishes, other town councils, and those places in categories 4 and 5. I can review a few more counties in southern England as I have sources for that, but others will need to look and the Midlands and the North. MRSC (talk) 23:06, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm slowly working through the list. Adding places according to the following criteria and indicating each one:


 * town council
 * successor parish, town council
 * borough (1835–1974)
 * ancient market town/ancient borough

If a place falls into multiple categories I'm putting the most recent. i.e. town council removes the need to explore earlier borough rights. I'm identifying successor parishes with town councils separately to newer town councils so it is possible to x-reference with successor parish. MRSC (talk) 08:25, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * This is very useful and much-needed work! What is your definition of ancient market town?  I'm thinking of places like Tickhill where the market died out (although that is a successor parish, so the case for inclusion is clear), and places like Penisale which had a market charter but no settlement generally regarded as a town. Warofdreams talk 14:07, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


 * For market town it could just as easily read 'market charter', perhaps it should? I'm putting anything that does not fall into the other 'newer' categories that was not an ancient borough into that category for now as long as I can find reference to a charter somewhere. I have a list of the ancient boroughs 1307-1660. Need to dig out a list source for market charters, I know I have seen one somewhere. Change of text to 'market charter' would make it easier to include the examples you give? MRSC (talk) 15:29, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I think market charter is a good choice. I was mostly wondering about long-expired market charters and whether they would qualify a settlement for this list. Warofdreams talk 12:30, 9 May 2010 (UTC)


 * We shouldn't worry if a charter has expired or lapsed. All the former boroughs that did not become successor parishes or have charter trustees have effectively lapsed (or had their charter passed to a district). If we are concerned about presenting town councils, ancient market towns, and former boroughs as if they have parity of status, we could split the list into three sections. If I were building the list from scratch I'd probably do that, although there is nothing wrong with it all in one table. MRSC (talk) 13:33, 9 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your excellent work in sorting this list.   D b f i r s   13:30, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Ordnance Survey
Here is what Ordnance Survey consider a town in their gazetteer. MRSC (talk) 12:40, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Carlton Colville
Carlton Colville in Suffolk has just been designated as a town — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.183.252.32 (talk) 19:37, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Farnborough, Runcorn, Welwyn Garden City et al
There are some obvious omissions from the list that don't meet the criteria set here. A bit like the Clacton example above, the likes of Runcorn and Welwyn Garden City are quite clearly towns, but dont have town councils (although WGC are attempting to form one at present), don't have historic market charters or borough status.

The same can be said for the smaller Derbyshire towns that aren't on the list for the same reason - like Melbourne, Hadfield, Swadlincote, Eckington, Newhall and Long Eaton.

I can't at present add any of these to the list as I have no evidence to put in the STATUS coulumn in the table.

Thoughts?

Whiteseditor30 (talk) 15:45, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Clacton
Any particular reason why Clacton-on-Sea is not listed? Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:21, 11 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Hmm - Clacton seems to fall into a gap in "the system" - it wasn't (AFAIK) an ancient or market town, it wasn't a borough nor part of a borough (past or present), and it doesn't have a town council. Oh dear! Argovian (talk) 10:58, 22 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I'd forgotten I'd asked this ;) Yes, it does seem to be a bit of an anomaly despite the 53,000 people that live there. It has a town hall and no town council! The district council do describe it as a town though. Bretonbanquet (talk) 11:10, 22 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Really, Clacton (and other similar places that are clearly towns but don't conform to the usual means of public/official "acknowledgement" of town status) should be on the list... perhaps in a separate section ("Other towns"?) below the New towns. Argovian (talk) 16:22, 22 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Makes sense. To the average reader, a town is a town is a town, regardless of official acknowledgement of town status. Clacton (for example) can't realistically be described as anything else. I wonder how many similar cases there might be? Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:43, 22 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Outside London, probably not that many... that's my hunch. Most towns have some historic "acknowledgement" (a charter, etc), or a modern-day town council, or are the chief settlement of a former/present-day borough, or are a statutory new town. Would be great if we could find one or two more as we can't really create a section with Clacton all on its own.. ;) Argovian (talk) 16:48, 22 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Good point, although some would say Clacton is a bit "special" ;) I shall scout around for any others that might join Clacton in a section of that kind. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:52, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
 * There are loads of towns not on the list. By this, I mean towns that almost always referred to as towns, but do not have a market charter or town council at present.
 * So looking at some example counties
 * Derbyshire is missing the following
 * Eckington, Hadfield, Killamarsh, Newhall, Long Eaton, Melbourne, Langley Mill and Swadlincote.


 * Hertfordshire is missing Baldock, Rickmansworth, Broxbourne and Kings Langley


 * Leicestershire is missing three towns - two fairly large ones at that - Coalville (5k), Oadby (pop of 24k) and Wigston Magna (pop of 33k)


 * And as a final example - Surrey is missing loads as town councils and market charters seemingly not that popular in leafy Surrey - Addlestone, Ashford, Bagshot, Banstead, Camberley, Caterham, Egham, Cobham, Epsom, Esher, Oxted, Redhill, Shepperton, Sunbury-on-Thames and Virgina Water.

Whiteseditor30 (talk) 13:04, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
 * If you research the history and administrative government story for Clacton this shows that this once small coastal rural parish of Great Clacton evolved in little over 20 years after 1871 when the pier was built into a thriving residential and commercial community. Its significance no doubt resulted in it being elevated to the status of an Urban District. I suspect the 'town hall' was built soon after to reflect the Council's elevated status. But unlike the earlier town charters, Boroughs and later Town Councils (which are really civil parish councils that choose to redesignate themselves a 'town') I cannot find a source for a UDC having the legal provision/ instrument to designate its historic/commercial centre as a 'town' (others please correct me here!). In 1974 when the Clacton UDC was abolished it was subsumed into Tendring District with the Council using the old 'town hall' as a civic offices. The thing is a lot of places call themselves towns or are colloqually known as such without legal backing and the article list once included many of these. But sentiment does not make them a 'town' which is a legal administrative device so the article was overhauled to ensure entries had town status which could meet WP:VERIFICATION policy. Hope this helps to at least focus discussion. Tmol42 (talk) 01:54, 23 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm aware of what you're saying - the point is that Clacton is only ever described as a "town" (cf places that are often described as villages when they are officially a town or places often described as towns when they are officially a city) and this article is called "List of towns..." and should include such places albeit not in the same section as those communities that are officially chartered etc. There has to be some sort of inclusion in this article of places like Clacton, otherwise it will dumbfound people as to why such places are missing. In this new section there can be a short analysis, along the lines perhaps of what you've just written above, and then a concise list of example towns with their populations (and we're looking at places like Clacton with a population of 50k plus). This would be no different to how in the city status related articles cathedral towns and large towns without city status is discussed. As for citations etc - it will not be an issue to find good, reliable sources for Clacton being commonly and only described as a town. Argovian (talk) 11:01, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Population
Any chance of listing populations? Like the equivalent City page does. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.1.219.138 (talk) 03:15, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes - I'd be very interested to know populations — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.130.252 (talk) 17:24, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070313111722/http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/relationships.jsp?u_id=10173206&c_id=10001043 to http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/relationships.jsp?u_id=10173206&c_id=10001043

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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 21:37, 23 May 2017 (UTC)