Talk:List of trading losses/Archive 1

NAB
I'm not convinced this one really belongs - the loss of one month's profits is scarcely catastrophic. However, they did sack quite a few senior guys. Greglocock 05:51, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Frans Afman
I just happen to find this page by chance. I'm not sure whether Frans Afman should be named here. If my memory serves me right, the defaulting loans were more or less forced on Mr. Afman by CL's head office in France, against his advice. And unless I'm very much mistaken, he had sufficient correspondence of this matter to ensure the Dutch central bank being able to force CL France to take these loans on its own books. I think including his name on this list in wholly unfair to him. MartinD, on the Dutch Wikipedia. 145.83.1.6 13:37, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Sowood
Jeffrey Larson Lost $1.5 Billion in the July '07 Credit Crunch... I think that may be list worthy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.54.168.50 (talk) 15:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

2008 sub-prime losses
I believe that the recent sub-prime losses taken by many banks recently should included in this list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.193.245.16 (talk) 09:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I completely disagree. Go back to the article and read the print carefully. As per my comment below, the list consists of "trading losses which eventually forced major corporations to go bankrupt or restructure parts of their organisation". To include subprime losses would require, at the very least, careful case-by-case consideration. Boycie
 * I reckon that opening line doesn't characterise the list very well. How about The following contains a list of notable trading losses, and the individuals who were blamed in the media. Many of the losses eventually forced major corporations to restructure or go bankrupt.. Notability lists are generally case-by-case anyway. --Bazzargh (talk) 20:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

We should differentiate between traders who fraudulently caused losses through unauthorized trades (like the Soc Gen guy) and people who were authorized to take risk and just ended up in losing positions (like Brian Hunter). Diablo1024 (talk) 19:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Chen Juilin
This is not a possible Chinese name ('jui' is not a Chinese syllable). However as there is no reference, it's impossible to check. this needs to be removed or corrected and referenced.217.43.226.218 (talk) 22:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * ok, I'vefound it, it's Chen Jiulin.217.43.226.218 (talk) 01:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Missing
( Prior Post... its Chen, Jui Lin, or Jui Lin Chen. )


 * No it's not. As I said, 'Jui' is not a Chinese syllable. 217.43.226.218 (talk) 01:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Is the massive loss by the Hunt brothers significant enough to make the list? Didn't they burn a billion dollars? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.188.118.64 (talk) 00:25, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The name of the Dexia Bank trader is Claude Hertveldt of Belgium —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ganshoren (talk • contribs) 01:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I think this one falls into the list and caused UBS to be merged/taken over by Swiss Bank. http://www.iht.com/articles/1998/10/03/ubs.t.php The loss was $700 million and the CEO took the responsibility, and was involved in the trade fromm the beginning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shader68 (talk • contribs) 06:56, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

China State Reserve Bureau
I'm not convinced this one belongs either - it didn't lead to losses at a major "corporation" since this is a government entity. Diablo1024 (talk) 19:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the problem is more with the opening paragraph than the SRB getting a mention. I think it fails to capture why organizations are on this list, and why particular individuals are named. For starters I'll change 'corporation' to 'organization' to reflect the content of the list better --Bazzargh (talk) 20:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Changed my mind. Corporations also includes Government-owned corporation. So that part of the definition, and this entry, are ok. --Bazzargh (talk) 20:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Corporations can include government-owned corporations, but I don't think the SRB is one. This page's section on China talks about business entities that are capitalized partially by the government and partially from private sources, but the SRB is a purely government entity and not a government corporation.  That's like calling the US Federal Reserve a corporation, which it definitely is not. 216.112.127.34 (talk) 14:57, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Include Inflation
Another column that has "Amount Lost (Adjusted for Inflation)". See who the biggest bad guy is ;).

--81.179.89.105 (talk) 20:32, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Seeing that we talk about figures here for comparative reasons, it would be a mistake to simply compare nominal values without adjustment for inflation. For example, USD 850 in 1980 is the same as USD 2,150 in 2007. This is because inflation has eroded the purchasing power of money. The joyous one (talk) 09:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

And some way to reflect exchange rate fluctuations? Perhaps non-US$ losses could also be given in their original currency.Quelcrime (talk) 11:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Giancarlo Parretti
Parretti's defaults and the losses of Credit Lyonnais for their dealings with Parretti shouldn't be included in here. First he was not a trader, neither an employee of Credit Lyonnais and finally the losses were not due to a trade. Wikihonduras (talk) 02:32, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Missing referencefor Bawag: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/07/13/business/bawag.php —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.143.134.44 (talk) 09:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Societe Generale loss
As noted in the Societe Generale article, US$7.14 billion have been lost by a single trader. Details seem scarce at this time, but perhaps it should be added to this page as more information becomes available. 118.90.72.245 (talk) 13:25, 24 January 2008 (UTC) Other User: I input the soc gen info this am, and now it's gone and seems like very ip on planet has posted a bunch of stuff locking it up. can't someone repost the soc gen thing again, so it's there? Name seems to be Jerome Kerviel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.69.253.23 (talk) 14:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Bloomberg states that the loss is $7.2 billion, not $8.1 billion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.203.158.141 (talk) 13:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, EUR 4.9m is at a exchange rate of 1.46, USD 7.2bn —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.57.144.21 (talk) 16:09, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not technically correct to include SocGen on this page, as the list is supposedly one of "trading losses which eventually forced major corporations to go bankrupt or restructure parts of their organisation". As SocGen has done neither, this reference should be omitted. It would, at the very least, be a dubious matter to refer to a capital injection as a restructuring. —Preceding Boycie comment added by 170.148.198.156 (talk) 17:08, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The SocGen trader did not loose EUR 4.8B, but only EUR 1.5B, the difference was lost by SocGen when they wished to correct the situation by closing (selling) the position in a falling market, thus compounding the losses. The joyous one (talk) 09:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * In trading, the value of an investment is its current value, not what it could have been or what it will be. SocGen did not "correct the situation". They simply closed a risky position because in finance time and liquidity are two key elements that you cannot deal without. and by the way, had the position not been closed, SocGen would undoubtedly be squeezed into bankruptcy by now. Christopher Lims (talk) 23:21, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Removal of the names column
Since this article's creation, OTRS has been back three times to remove names that were unsourced, poorly sourced or the source didn't actually name the name given. That's a pretty serious problem when, in most cases, we're dealing with living people here. I was about to remove others today with the same issues, when I realized that as it stood, the entire "name" column really needed to go for the following reasons:
 * The title "Name" doesn't give any indication what data we're actually trying to give people here.
 * The names listed varied from individual traders who performed the transactions that resulted in losses, to vice-presidents in charge of the divisions that posted the loss to people who later claimed they were fired because of the loss (but maintained they had nothing to do with it). There was no rhyme or reason to who was listed there.
 * Many of the sources aren't up to the caliber you need for WP:BLP; only some of the sources actually mentioned the person named and clearly stated that they were at fault.

Unless there's some way to resolve all of these problems and make sure we're strictly complying with WP:BLP, perhaps the table needs to be changed to focus on the losses (like the article title states) or perhaps a table format wasn't the best idea for this subject. Shell babelfish 14:36, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Was able to re-introduced most names as "person associated with incident" after updating references to increase quality and ensure person associated with incident is mentioned in source. This way no person is pointed out as responsible for any loss. Derlinus (talk) 21:27, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Madoff
In my mind, Madoff scandal is not a trading loss. What do you think of his mention in this list of trading loss ? --Dauphiné (talk) 17:04, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Howie Hubler
I read in The Big Short that Howie Hubler lost $9 billion in one CDS trade for Morgan Stanley, the largest single loss in history. I have a reference:. Does anybody have more info, so we can add it to the list? His losses didn't cause Morgan Stanley to go completely out of business, but it did cause MS to change its status from investment bank to bank holding company and require Mitsubishi UFJ Financial Group, Japan's largest bank, to take a stake of $9 billion in Morgan Stanley's equity.Rachelskit (talk) 22:54, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

George Soros
Didn't George Soros lose $2 billion when Russia defualted? Rachelskit (talk) 02:52, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec
I vote to delete this subject. As per the Article, this "was the worst performance in the Caisse’s history, primarily driven by the sharp downturn in global equity markets and compounded by eroding real estate values and sizable provisions made against third-party asset-backed securities”, so in that vein we could just put every mutual fund that performed poorly. This article is for "Trading Losses" or bad trades/decisions by one trader or a group of traders, so general devaluation of the market shouldn't count.Rachelskit (talk) 19:23, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

LTCM
Isn't it kind of unfair to attribute the LTCM losses to Merriwether, Shouldn't they be allocated to the traders who held the positions(Hagani and Hillibrand mainly I guess), otherwise the Brian Hunter loss should go to the principal of Amaranth( Nicholas Maounis) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.69.253.23 (talk) 13:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * John Merriwether was running the LTCM ship.Rachelskit (talk) 19:25, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

'I urge you to remove Aleksandar Adamovic from the List of trading losses. To begin with it's all roomers based on media picturing everything from Carnegie's and their own point of view, without seeing both sides. Secondly, you might want facts before you judge.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Simonjern (talk • contribs) 23:10, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Person(s) associated with incident
Correct me if i'm wrong, but You know after going through the list, I noticed they are all men. Why is that? Why are no women listed? I'm sure women do this too just like men do. This tells volumes, about either how men and women are different or how differently they are treated/ treat each other. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.31.160.200 (talk) 19:18, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Find some women and add them to the list.Rachelskit (talk) 04:22, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually I read an interesting article about women and risk. Most banks in Iceland went under during the Subprime Meltdown, but one bank, which was run by two women, actually had little or no subprime exposure!Rachelskit (talk) 19:30, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Scale of number "b[illio]n": short or long?
We should specify at the outset whether "billion" is used in the short-scale sense ("thousand million"/"milliard") or the long-scale sense ("million million", i.e., short-scale "trillion").

I *think* the article uses the short scale, but I'm not entirely sure. For example, re: the first entry on the list, $9 short-billion seems like too small a figure for the amount of news coverage involved, but on the other hand, $9 long-billion / short-trillion seems far too large. Think of it this way: $9 short-billion is roughly 20% of Bill Gates' personal wealth as of 20110317, but $9 long-billion is roughly 2/3 of the U.S. national debt as of 20110317.


 * Antediluvian67 (talk) 18:21, 17 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Our Manual of Style defines this issue clearly. We only use short-scale on WP. Owen&times; &#9742;  22:15, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

UBS announce estimated USD 2 billion losses from unauthorized trading
From http://www.ubs.com/1/e/about/news.html?newsId=195122 "UBS has discovered a loss due to unauthorized trading by a trader in its Investment Bank. The matter is still being investigated, but UBS's current estimate of the loss on the trades is in the range of USD 2 billion. It is possible that this could lead UBS to report a loss for the third quarter of 2011. No client positions were affected."

This would put it in the top ten of this list, worth following as more information is revealed. W (talk) 08:02, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Hunt brothers and Silver Thursday
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Thursday, the Hunt brothers lost $1.7bn in 1980 after trying to corner the market in silver. Should they not appear on this list? 86.151.72.66 (talk) 21:50, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

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Is the Obama addition to the top serious or just vandalism?
I honestly cant tell. Either way, I don't think it belongs there for several reasons. The first being I wouldn't call the US government actions as a "trade". The second being I don't see how the auto bail out can be pinned onto him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vind2 (talk • contribs) 04:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

After looking at it I concur with you and have consequently removed the vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.161.168.40 (talk) 02:52, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

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Amounts Inconsistent
The loss indicated in the table for the largest trading loss, JPMorgan Chase 2012, is not consistent with the article for the event, the article states that 9 billion USD is a worst case scenario. MarB23 (talk) 20:26, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Bill Ackman - Valeant
In total, Ackman lost even more than $4 billion on his Valeant investment, Fortune’s analysis found. To put the damage in its full brutal context, that equates to Ackman losing $7.7 million every day the market was open for more than two years.

Here’s how the math breaks down: Pershing Square bought its first shares of Valeant for about $161 per share in February 2015. On Monday [March 13 2017], he sold the last of his shares for $11 apiece. But the hedge fund’s filings show that in addition to Valeant stock, much of Ackman’s final position was made up of put options—an investment derivative obligating the hedge fund manager to buy Valeant shares at more than four times their current price. (At the time Ackman entered into that contract last summer, he clearly believed Valeant’s stock price was on its way up.)

Trader named
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c072c242-ca60-11dc-a960-000077b07658.html


 * Société Générale/2008/Jérôme Kerviel is on the list.  ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  13:55, 28 February 2021 (UTC)