Talk:List of underground newspapers of the 1960s counterculture

Disputed title
The current title, List of underground newspapers, fails WP:PRECISE, because, for example, every paper listed at Clandestine press of the French Resistance are also "underground newspapers", but they are from the 1940s. The title needs to be changed in some way, to meet the requirements of WP:PRECISE. Having considered a number of possiblities, I'm opting in favor of List of alternative newspapers (1965–1972).

What is your preference for new title? Please give your reason:


 * 1) List of alternative newspapers of the 1960s
 * 2) List of alternative newspapers (1965–1972)
 * 3) List of alternative newspapers of the counterculture
 * 4) List of underground newspapers of the 1960s
 * 5) List of underground newspapers (1965–1972)
 * 6) List of underground newspapers of the counterculture
 * 7) List of underground newspapers of the 1960s counterculture

Your response:


 * List of alternative newspapers (1965–1972) – #2 seems to be the least awkward, and while the date range is somewhat arbitrary, at least it is PRECISE, where counterculture by itself, is not. All three avoid the use of underground, which I find preferable due to possible confusion with earlier usage in connection with clandestine (secret, illegal) newspapers (see Clandestine press) although I could live with #5. Mathglot (talk) 01:01, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

The first sentence gives us some hints of how to rename it:"This is a partial list of the local underground newspapers launched during the Sixties era of the hippie/psychedelic/youth/counterculture/New Left/antiwar movements, approximately 1965-1972, in the US and abroad." Of the list of words in the slash-series ("hippie...") I would discount most of them as either too narrow (hippie, psychedlic, New Left), or too imprecise (most of them). Strictly speaking, these newspapers were not "underground" newspapers, as they were not illegal, and were sold or distributed openly, unlike, say, underground newspapers of the French Resistance, which would have gotten you thrown in jail or shot. In my view, "alternative newspapers" would be better, but that still doesn't solve the PRECISION problem. Either a specific date range (1965–1972), a general date specifier ("The Sixties", "1960s"), or a descriptive term that performs a similar function ("counterculture"). "Alternative newspapers", is a frequently-enough used bigram that originally came about during that period, but it remained applicable after the 60s and 70s, and to some extent, is still used. So I would discount "alternative" as sufficient on its own to resolve imprecision. The term "counterculture" is pretty focused on that period, but counterculture newspapers is not a frequent expression, where alternative newspapers is. So, imho it comes down to "alternative newspapers" plus a date range or an expression, or "underground newspapers" idem. Mathglot (talk) 01:01, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * With respect to "underground" vs. "alternative", this ngrams plot clearly shows the earlier use of "underground" spiking during World War II, picking up again in the 1970s; meanwhile, "alternative newspapers" starts around 1970, and rises gradually. Although "underground newspaper" is twice as common as "alternative newspapers" by 2008, keep in mind that "underground" is used for both meanings, whereas "alternative" is *never* used to refer to clandestine newspapers, so that a book search for "underground newspapers" between 2003 and 2008 returns different results about papers in Greece, Holland, or Poland during World War II; results for "alternative newspapers" are restricted to results after the mid-to-late 1960s. Mathglot (talk) 01:19, 24 June 2020 (UTC)


 * , since this page apparently has few watchers, how about a WP:RM? I like your proposal, would also support "List of underground newspapers of the counterculture of the 1960s" which would be clear if a bit wordy. – Thjarkur (talk) 19:23, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, good idea. Mathglot (talk) 03:42, 23 July 2020 (UTC)   now available below. Thinking I should just close and archive this one now as moot; what do you think? Mathglot (talk) 04:05, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 23 July 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved to  List of underground newspapers of the 1960s counterculture , per consensus. —usernamekiran (talk) 19:59, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

List of underground newspapers → (see list) – The current title, List of underground newspapers, fails WP:PRECISE, because, for example, every paper listed at Clandestine press of the French Resistance is also an "underground newspaper", but they are from the 1940s. The title needs to be changed in some way, to meet the requirements of WP:PRECISE.

Survey
What is your preference for a new title? Please give your reasoning.
 * 1) List of alternative newspapers of the 1960s
 * 2) List of alternative newspapers (1965–1972)
 * 3) List of alternative newspapers of the counterculture
 * 4) List of underground newspapers of the 1960s
 * 5) List of underground newspapers (1965–1972)
 * 6) List of underground newspapers of the counterculture
 * 7) List of underground newspapers of the 1960s counterculture

Your response:


 * List of alternative newspapers (1965–1972) – (as nom) #2 seems to be the least awkward, and while the date range is somewhat arbitrary, at least it is PRECISE, where counterculture by itself, is not. The first three avoid the use of underground, which may engender possible confusion with earlier usage in connection with clandestine (secret, illegal) newspapers (see Clandestine press) although I could live with #7 or #5. Actually, I could live with any of them, as they aren't ambiguous, the way the current one is.
 * Support any rename. The year range looks a bit arbitrary, List of underground newspapers of the 1960s counterculture may be the clearest. – Thjarkur (talk) 09:48, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Support List of underground newspapers of the 1960s counterculture. These papers were often the non-fake news sources of their day similar to some internet and cable news material. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:48, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Discussion
The first sentence gives us some hints of how to rename it:"This is a partial list of the local underground newspapers launched during the Sixties era of the hippie/psychedelic/youth/counterculture/New Left/antiwar movements, approximately 1965-1972, in the US and abroad." Of the list of words in the slash-series ("hippie...") I would discount most of them as either too narrow (hippie, psychedlic, New Left), or too imprecise (most of them). Strictly speaking, these newspapers were not "underground" newspapers, as they were not illegal, and were sold or distributed openly, unlike, say, underground newspapers of the French Resistance, which would have gotten you thrown in jail or shot. In my view, "alternative newspapers" would be better, but that still doesn't solve the PRECISION problem. Either a specific date range (1965–1972), a general date specifier ("The Sixties", "1960s"), or a descriptive term that performs a similar function ("counterculture"). "Alternative newspapers", is a frequently-enough used bigram that originally came about during that period, but it remained applicable after the 60s and 70s, and to some extent, is still used. So I would discount "alternative" as sufficient on its own to resolve imprecision. The term "counterculture" is pretty focused on that period, but counterculture newspapers is not a frequent expression, where alternative newspapers is. So, imho it comes down to "alternative newspapers" plus a date range or an expression, or "underground newspapers" idem.

With respect to "underground" vs. "alternative", this ngrams plot clearly shows the earlier use of "underground" spiking during World War II, picking up again in the 1970s; meanwhile, "alternative newspapers" starts around 1970, and rises gradually. Although "underground newspaper" is twice as common as "alternative newspapers" by 2008, keep in mind that "underground" is used for both meanings, whereas "alternative" is *never* used to refer to clandestine newspapers, so that a book search for "underground newspapers" between 2003 and 2008 returns different results about papers in Greece, Holland, or Poland during World War II; results for "alternative newspapers" are restricted to results after the mid-to-late 1960s. Mathglot (talk) 03:56, 23 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Listed at WT:JOURN, WT:LISTS. Mathglot (talk) 09:44, 23 July 2020 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Germany
Germany: Agit 883 (Berlin; Anarchists, 1970's RAF), the Frankfurt Area G.I. (B.P.P./ members? sympathisers?) paper "Voice of the Lumpen", etc..--Ralfdetlef (talk) 16:16, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

John Sinclair
The MC5 and John Sinclair had their own paper, I think: The Chicago Sun.--Ralfdetlef (talk) 16:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)